Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Several years ago, I used Intergrief for 2 years. It had the most cumbersome GUI of any DTP application I have ever seen. It required selecting as many as 8 levels of child menus to do anything. It did have a couple of nice features, but not enough to make me ever want to use it again. In fact, given the choice between Interleaf /Quicksilver and Word, I'd choose Word. Now .that. ought to tell you something. :-) Diane (glad I don't have to choose) Gaskill === -Original Message- From: Syed Zaeem Hosain [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Jan 20, 2006 9:53 AM To: Combs, Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame Hi, Richard, et. al. Combs, Richard wrote: BTW, back when I was working in Interleaf (on Sun 3/50s), we demo'd this new software called FrameMaker. My evaluation? It had a brilliant paradigm and lots of potential, but it wasn't robust and full-featured enough to replace Interleaf. Times change. Now, you couldn't drag me back to Ileaf for love or money. Wow! Bring back some interesting memories for me too! :) I first compared Interleaf and FrameMaker on Sun 3/50's in 1989. The tech pub department in the company was using Interleaf, and our engineering department was evaluating which way to go for our documentation needs. The tech pub folks were pushing us to select Interleaf for consistency. We ended up selecting FrameMaker for a few simple reasons (at the time.) FrameMaker had a server license concept (with checkout), but Interleaf was locked to the single workstation. And, when you ran Interleaf, it took over the graphics and you could not run other windowing tools (Suntools from Sun for example.) The choice was clear (although it took some convincing for the CEO - who approved all capital purchases) and we never looked back! Z ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/dgcaller%40earthlink.net Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Hi Paul, I just googled Quicksilver publishing software on Mac OS X. There are tons of articles, but it looks like Mac has some product they labeled Quicksilver too, which impacts the OS itself somehow. I don't think it's the former Interleaf product being discussed, but only had time to just scan a few articles. You'll have to wade through cyberland, and let us know what you find out. Although I'm harnessed to PC at work and home, I'm still interested in Mac. I learned on Mac computers ages ago while working for a community college. It's been ten years since I saw the Interleaf product and I can't remember if it was running on a Mac or PC. Rita Muller Technical Writer Morrow Technologies Corporation -Original Message- From: Paul Findon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 4:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame On 19 Jan 2006, at 16:04, Rita Muller wrote: Me too, Bill! But I just Googled Interleaf and learned that Quicksilver is the new brand name for the original Interleaf code. So IL is alive and well, just now known as Quicksilver. Does it run on Mac OS X? I remember that it supports x-refs, something 69 of Adobe's 70 products can't do, and they update in real-time. No Update command required. Paul ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
At 7:29 am -0500 20/1/06, Rita Muller wrote: I just googled Quicksilver publishing software on Mac OS X. There are tons of articles, but it looks like Mac has some product they labeled Quicksilver too, which impacts the OS itself somehow. Yes, it does: it's a shareware command expander. Nothing at all to do with DTP. -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Hi, Richard, et. al. Combs, Richard wrote: BTW, back when I was working in Interleaf (on Sun 3/50s), we demo'd this new software called FrameMaker. My evaluation? It had a brilliant paradigm and lots of potential, but it wasn't robust and full-featured enough to replace Interleaf. Times change. Now, you couldn't drag me back to Ileaf for love or money. Wow! Bring back some interesting memories for me too! :) I first compared Interleaf and FrameMaker on Sun 3/50's in 1989. The tech pub department in the company was using Interleaf, and our engineering department was evaluating which way to go for our documentation needs. The tech pub folks were pushing us to select Interleaf for consistency. We ended up selecting FrameMaker for a few simple reasons (at the time.) FrameMaker had a server license concept (with checkout), but Interleaf was locked to the single workstation. And, when you ran Interleaf, it took over the graphics and you could not run other windowing tools (Suntools from Sun for example.) The choice was clear (although it took some convincing for the CEO - who approved all capital purchases) and we never looked back! Z ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
I've only seen Quicksilver/Interleaf demo'd for me, but from what I saw, the cost of (re)training could be much greater too. I could be wrong, but I thought it made FrameMaker look simple. If most of your users are coming from Word, it could be easier, and therefore, cheaper to switch to Frame. Just from a cost viewpoint (per seat, training, etc.), why not ask the Interleaf users to justify *their* position? David Creamer I.D.E.A.S. - Results-Oriented Training http://www.IDEAStraining.com Adobe Certified (since 1995) for ALL Print and Web Publishing-related software Authorized Quark Provider (since 1988) Markzware, Enfocus, FileMaker Certified Apple Certified Consultant (since 1990) ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
4. Frame is more widely used and offers greater compatibility with the rest of the publishing world. Related to this is if/when the time comes that you need a contractor to do something fast, you are a lot more likely to find a Frame pro than an Interleaf one. This applies to new hires, too, if the boss is unwilling to wait for someone to come up to speed. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Joe, A few more factors to think about including in your business case... * numbers of users of each tool * approximate number of existing pages in each tool * platforms/OS in use and on which your products run And, although I haven't had contact with them for years, Adobe used to maintain some field sales support pros that got involved when some level of corporate decision- making was taking place in order to push the case. They provided demos, CBAs, integration scenarios, etc. Very useful resources; stuff you won't find from the off-the-shelf software vendords. Art On 1/18/06, Sims, Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The company I work for uses Frame, Interleaf and Word in three separate offices. (PC version) Management has requested that we create a uniform style for documentation starting now. They're expecting us to share content -- Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
I'd almost guarantee that for 80% of the Interleaf users, the only factor that really matters is that they don't have to change what they've been doing for the last dozen years. They've got a lot of time and energy invested on making it second nature to use a tool that most people consider arcane. They simply don't want to forced to change to *any* other tool that might involve a similar learning curve. The more difficult a tool was to learn, the more likely it is that proficient users will be strongly averse to adopting a new tool (unless they are tool geeks like me...) My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel. Fred Ridder (fred dot ridder at intel dot com) Intel Parsippany, NJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn Voyles Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:17 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame We've heard a lot about how much better FM is than IL, and I don't doubt any of it. Great points. But wouldn't the IL side of the house be building a case as well? I'm curious what justification they claim for their cause. Glenn ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Solicit opinions from a IL/Quicksilver list in the same manner. Beware though as some of your colleagues may be on those lists - write from a neutral email address and don't mention too many identifying details. Sorry, I've no idea if any lists even exist, but I'd assume they do. Why be so sneaky? I'd blurt it right out... Hi, I'm Bill and I work for XYZ Corp. We're currently consolidating down to one authoring tool from three, and we're down to deciding between FrameMaker and Quicksilver. I'm looking for pros and cons to moving to Quicksilver over FrameMaker. I asked a similar question about FrameMaker on the FrameUsers list. If you'd like, I'll post a summary of both findings. Thanks! -- Bill Swallow HATT List Owner WWP-Users List Owner 42.8162,-73.7736 http://techcommdood.blogspot.com I support Char James-Tanny for STC Secretary. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Cost. Last I heard Interleaf was thousands per seat, while FM is much, much less. Karen L. Zorn Zorn Technologies, Inc. Mesa, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sims, Joseph Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:21 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame The company I work for uses Frame, Interleaf and Word in three separate offices. (PC version) Management has requested that we create a uniform style for documentation starting now. They're expecting us to share content and presumably document templates. In my opinion, all of us should use Frame, but the Interleaf users have dug in their heels. It's become a non-constructive us vs. them conflict. As a result, I need to come up with a list of business reasons why Interleaf is not the correct choice for the company. I know of several from prior discussions on the list, but need more. 1. IL to PDF conversions can be less straightforward than Frame to PDF conversions. Does IL generate bookmarks? 2. Translation memory tools don't support IL, dramatically increasing costs. 3. Interleaf/Quicksilver/Broadvision corp. is far more likely to end up in Chapter 11 than Adobe. 4. Frame is more widely used and offers greater compatibility with the rest of the publishing world. Does anyone have any additional words of wisdom? Particularly ones that can have costs assigned to them? Thanks, Joe D. Joseph Sims Technical Documentation The Gleason Works 1000 University Ave. Rochester, NY 14692-2970 585-784-6969 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/k.zorn%40zorntech.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
Hi, all. A related sidebar: Ever use FrameMaker and put the Interleaf in a document and then spell-check it in FrameMaker? Try it! :) Z Karen L. Zorn wrote: Cost. Last I heard Interleaf was thousands per seat, while FM is much, much less. Karen L. Zorn Zorn Technologies, Inc. Mesa, AZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sims, Joseph Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:21 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame The company I work for uses Frame, Interleaf and Word in three separate offices. (PC version) Management has requested that we create a uniform style for documentation starting now. They're expecting us to share content and presumably document templates. In my opinion, all of us should use Frame, but the Interleaf users have dug in their heels. It's become a non-constructive us vs. them conflict. As a result, I need to come up with a list of business reasons why Interleaf is not the correct choice for the company. I know of several from prior discussions on the list, but need more. 1. IL to PDF conversions can be less straightforward than Frame to PDF conversions. Does IL generate bookmarks? 2. Translation memory tools don't support IL, dramatically increasing costs. 3. Interleaf/Quicksilver/Broadvision corp. is far more likely to end up in Chapter 11 than Adobe. 4. Frame is more widely used and offers greater compatibility with the rest of the publishing world. Does anyone have any additional words of wisdom? Particularly ones that can have costs assigned to them? Thanks, Joe D. Joseph Sims Technical Documentation The Gleason Works 1000 University Ave. Rochester, NY 14692-2970 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
At 4:20 PM -0500 1/18/06, Sims, Joseph wrote: The company I work for uses Frame, Interleaf and Word in three separate offices. (PC version) Management has requested that we create a uniform style for documentation starting now. They're expecting us to share content and presumably document templates. In my opinion, all of us should use Frame, but the Interleaf users have dug in their heels. It's become a non-constructive us vs. them conflict. As a result, I need to come up with a list of business reasons why Interleaf is not the correct choice for the company. I thought that IL was effectively a dead product - web ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Frame vs. Quicksilver - Please help me save Frame
non-constructive us vs. them conflict. As a result, I need to come up with a list of business reasons why Interleaf is not the correct choice for the company. It seems to me that the best way to state your FM case is because it is a compromise between the two. IL may want to be the standard, but coould your company afford to convert all the Word and FM seats to IL? OTOH, if the IL and FM users made a good case for advanced features, could the Word camp comply? Also...could you imagine the cost and process of converting the Word people to use IL? You might want to try that approach. John Posada Senior Technical Writer So long and thanks for all the fish. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
