Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened
I was lazy and didn't want to reinvent the wheel, so I took DOCBOOK and modified the EDD to make it format the way we wanted. Of course with heading resetting the numbering system I wanted an automatic way to apply the heading formats without reverting to manually setting attributes. I accomplished this with the recursive sections available in DOCBOOK. So the context of Title element in levels of Section elements works. The context is: If context is: {first} Section If context is: Section Section Section Section Chapter Use paragraph format: Heading 4 Else, if context is: Section Section Section Chapter Use paragraph format: Heading 3 Else, if context is: Section Section Section Article Use paragraph format: Heading 4 Else, if context is: Section Section Chapter Use paragraph format: Heading 2 Else, if context is: Section Section Article Use paragraph format: Heading 3 Else, if context is: Section Chapter Use paragraph format: Heading 1 Else, if context is: Section Article Use paragraph format: Heading 2 Context, level they all work well. Scott Chris Despopoulos wrote: I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only. Users should never just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe). Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids... Or rather, it imposes it. To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them, you would have to: * Create the new formats * Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes * Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element* * Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the attribute vals * Store all the above in the template In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and each value is the name of a pgf format. Then you set up format rules for every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute value. Then do the same for char, table, and other formats??? But this kind of defeats the purpose of structure. The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display. You want a machine to make the display decisions at the last minute. And FrameMaker is just one such machine. By using that principle, then you can automate great things, like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all the formatting adjusts automatically. I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer. Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project. Maybe it's time to address more fundamental issues? ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
No, in some cases I use maps in RoboHelp or MIF2Go, in others I use text insets in files with different definitions of the paragraph tags. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com wrote: You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the differences he cites in his outputs). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
Thanks for the clarification of your techniques for doing this. Craig -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 10:45 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats No, in some cases I use maps in RoboHelp or MIF2Go, in others I use text insets in files with different definitions of the paragraph tags. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com wrote: You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the differences he cites in his outputs). ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
I think the answer to your question is somewhere between No and It Depends, but closer to No. It gets back to the structure vs. display issue. FrameMaker tries to give you both the XML world and the WYSIWYG world in one package. A more typical XML editor (like the new XML view in Frame 11) is just a text-based markup language editor that doesn't know anything about display. The XML output from such an editor gets turned into a formatted document by other software that transforms it (XSL and that stuff) based on the elements and attributes. This is how XML can get used in lots of different ways (single-sourcing). Different transformations yield different formatting based on the target display platform. If FrameMaker, that display transformation takes place in real time in the interaction between the EDD and the para and char formats in your document based on the elements and attributes in your structure plus specific formatting overrides in the EDD. This means there is a temptation to build in a lot of attributes and formatting that is Frame specific. For example, some of my elements include whether or not I want the para or heading to be at the top of a page. This is entirely display related and something that would almost certainly be frowned upon if you were writing for multiple display environments. Therefore, if you are round tripping for distribution in other display environments, I would actually suspect that you would want to minimize the format related stuff in your structure, rather than maximize it because the framemaker-specific formatting would make less sense when transforming to other display environments. If you are round tripping just for editing purposes and it always comes back to FrameMaker for printing/PDF, then that is less of an issue and you can do what works best for you. Even in that case, you might not want to burden the authors with format related attributes to think about. Hope I've been at least somewhat coherent in my comments. I've probably simplified things a little. I don't do any round tripping, so I can't speak much to the pitfalls. Fred On 9/13/2012 6:29 PM, rebecca officer wrote: Hi guys If you're planning to roundtrip through XML, with different authors using different XML editors, you'd need to have all the formatting in the EDD, right? Or am I on completely the wrong track in my ignorance? Thanks Rebecca -- Fred Wersan VT MÄK, Principal Technical Writer 68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 T: +1.617.876.8085 x124 Email: fwer...@mak.com Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off! www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012 ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the differences he cites in his outputs). However, structure allows you to create context that gives different paragraph formatting to the same structural element (like a Heading) depending on whether it is inside another Heading or inside multiple levels of Heading. That way your structure shows the Heading as single element choice, but the formatting is brought in depending on what that element is contained within. In that way your EDD can reference the paragraph tags like Heading1, Heading2, Heading3, etc. depending on the level of the Heading element. For my money, it makes sense for the EDD to reference paragraph and character tags defined in the Structure Application's template rather that creating ad hoc formatting within the EDD. That becomes a lot harder to reengineer in a different context since it is hidden away in the EDD rather than in the document template specified by the Structured Application specified in FrameMaker. Craig -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:14 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats You don't need to use structured FM for that. My paragraph tags map to different formats / tags depending on whether the output is PDF, Web help, Confluence XHTML, or 7-bit ASCII with layout. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
Just my two cents on this. There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and maybe your philosophical approach - as in no formatting in the EDD. When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part this means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate from the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy permits this). As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD, there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times when it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated and it isn't worth it. Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try to act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no new on-the-fly formats allowed. With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they get blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to do things right. A previous respondent said: The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display.? I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure, particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done by the computer, not by the user. Fred -- Fred Wersan VT MÄK, Principal Technical Writer 68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 T: +1.617.876.8085 x124 Email: fwer...@mak.com Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off! www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012 ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
I like Fred's arguments here. I have mainly advocated the Paragraph/Character format approach in EDDs for two main reasons: 1) It is generally easier to have a single EDD work with multiple templates, which is advantageous for some document sets. 2) It allows the client a bit of flexibility in determining the look and feel of their templates. I do the EDD work and they can do the template work with the Paragraph and Character Designer interface that they are familiar with. Because the large number of formats that this approach can entail, you need to plan your format names carefully so they make sense to the template designer. Over time, I have become less strict, and moved to more of a mixed approach. For certain types of formatting, I will use a base paragraph format and specify exceptions in the EDD; for example, page breaks, extra space at the end of a list, etc. This still allows template changes with the Designers, but cuts back on the number of exception formats in the paragraph and character catalogs. I have found that this works well and still supports the two reasons above. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Wersan Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats Just my two cents on this. There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and maybe your philosophical approach - as in no formatting in the EDD. When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part this means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate from the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy permits this). As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD, there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times when it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated and it isn't worth it. Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try to act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no new on-the-fly formats allowed. With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they get blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to do things right. A previous respondent said: The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display.? I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure, particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done by the computer, not by the user. Fred -- Fred Wersan VT MÄK, Principal Technical Writer 68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 T: +1.617.876.8085 x124 Email: fwer...@mak.com Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off! www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012 ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as r...@rickquatro.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/rick%40rickquatro.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
Hi guys If you're planning to roundtrip through XML, with different authors using different XML editors, you'd need to have all the formatting in the EDD, right? Or am I on completely the wrong track in my ignorance? Thanks Rebecca Rick Quatro r...@rickquatro.com 14/09/12 10:02 I like Fred's arguments here. I have mainly advocated the Paragraph/Character format approach in EDDs for two main reasons: 1) It is generally easier to have a single EDD work with multiple templates, which is advantageous for some document sets. 2) It allows the client a bit of flexibility in determining the look and feel of their templates. I do the EDD work and they can do the template work with the Paragraph and Character Designer interface that they are familiar with. Because the large number of formats that this approach can entail, you need to plan your format names carefully so they make sense to the template designer. Over time, I have become less strict, and moved to more of a mixed approach. For certain types of formatting, I will use a base paragraph format and specify exceptions in the EDD; for example, page breaks, extra space at the end of a list, etc. This still allows template changes with the Designers, but cuts back on the number of exception formats in the paragraph and character catalogs. I have found that this works well and still supports the two reasons above. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Wersan Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats Just my two cents on this. There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and maybe your philosophical approach - as in no formatting in the EDD. When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part this means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate from the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy permits this). As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD, there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times when it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated and it isn't worth it. Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try to act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no new on-the-fly formats allowed. With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they get blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to do things right. A previous respondent said: The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display.? I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure, particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done by the computer, not by the user. Fred -- Fred Wersan VT MÄK, Principal Te chnical Writer 68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 T: +1.617.876.8085 x124 Email: fwer...@mak.com Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off! www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012 ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as r...@rickquatro.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/rick%40rickquatro.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as rebecca.offi...@alliedtelesis.co.nz. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/rebecca.officer%40alliedtelesis.co.nz Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats
You don't need to use structured FM for that. My paragraph tags map to different formats / tags depending on whether the output is PDF, Web help, Confluence XHTML, or 7-bit ASCII with layout. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Fred Wersan fwer...@mak.com wrote: A previous respondent said: The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display.? I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure, particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done by the computer, not by the user. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened
I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only. Users should never just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe). Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids... Or rather, it imposes it. To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them, you would have to: * Create the new formats * Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes * Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element* * Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the attribute vals * Store all the above in the template In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and each value is the name of a pgf format. Then you set up format rules for every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute value. Then do the same for char, table, and other formats??? But this kind of defeats the purpose of structure. The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display. You want a machine to make the display decisions at the last minute. And FrameMaker is just one such machine. By using that principle, then you can automate great things, like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all the formatting adjusts automatically. I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer. Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project. Maybe it's time to address more fundamental issues? ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened
Also .. it wasn't clear to me (I may have missed it) if these structured files are sourced as XML or FM binaries. If structured FM binaries, local (non-EDD) formatting will generally stick around, but can revert to the EDD-defined formats under certain situations. Personally, I find that the structured FM binary route can cause more problems than it solves (I know this is not a widely-held belief, so take with a grain of salt). :o If XML sourced (the proper way to do structured authoring in FM .. IMHO), heed Chris' advice. ...scott On 9/11/12 10:45 AM, Chris Despopoulos wrote: I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only. Users should never just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe). Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids... Or rather, it imposes it. To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them, you would have to: * Create the new formats * Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes * Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element* * Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the attribute vals * Store all the above in the template In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and each value is the name of a pgf format. Then you set up format rules for every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute value. Then do the same for char, table, and other formats??? But this kind of defeats the purpose of structure. The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from display. You want a machine to make the display decisions at the last minute. And FrameMaker is just one such machine. By using that principle, then you can automate great things, like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all the formatting adjusts automatically. I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer. Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project. Maybe it's time to address more fundamental issues? ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened
Lisa, With structured Frame, content and formatting are separate. After you create the content, you run the style sheet script (XSLT or XSL-Fo) and it formats it. When you send someone the raw XML file, there won't be formatting. They need to apply the style sheet script as well. Unless of course, you create a finished product like a PDF, then they'll see the formatting you designed. -Gillian From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 11:45 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened Hello Again All, The project that I was working on below (created structured templates and EDD for use to convert unstructured to structured Frame) is now in the hands of the end users. They are having an issue with the paragraph formatting not sticking when they apply it in their new document (the structured template). This appears to be a sporadic issue within the same document. (FrameMaker 10) For instance, Header style (contains numbering reset) 1. Step 2. Step 3. Step Header style 1. Step 2. Step 3. Step Header style (the auto-numbering disappears from the style here) 4. Step 5. Step Header style 1. Step 2. Step Has anyone seen behavior before? If the user changes the affected para to Body and then re-applies the format, most of the time it's right. Any ideas on where we can start to look? Thanks in advance! Lisa From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com]mailto:[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: 07 04, 2012 10:59 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats SOLVED Hello All, Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using the textformat structures. I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks! Lisa From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM To: Rick Quatro; framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Rick, I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now all body again. It was a good idea though! Thank you, Lisa From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com] Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM To: Lisa Freeman; framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Lisa, Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File Import Element Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.commailto:r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hello All, FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh). The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema. When we wrap the text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body and we have to reapply the format. We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element. Does anyone have any other ideas? BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, EDD, etc. Thank you in advance! Sincerely, Lisa Freeman Publication Support Analyst E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com ** Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use only by the person(s) or organization listed
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened
Hello Again All, The project that I was working on below (created structured templates and EDD for use to convert unstructured to structured Frame) is now in the hands of the end users. They are having an issue with the paragraph formatting not sticking when they apply it in their new document (the structured template). This appears to be a sporadic issue within the same document. (FrameMaker 10) For instance, Header style (contains numbering reset) 1. Step 2. Step 3. Step Header style 1. Step 2. Step 3. Step Header style (the auto-numbering disappears from the style here) 4. Step 5. Step Header style 1. Step 2. Step Has anyone seen behavior before? If the user changes the affected para to Body and then re-applies the format, most of the time it's right. Any ideas on where we can start to look? Thanks in advance! Lisa From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: 07 04, 2012 10:59 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats SOLVED Hello All, Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using the textformat structures. I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks! Lisa From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM To: Rick Quatro; framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Rick, I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now all body again. It was a good idea though! Thank you, Lisa From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com] Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM To: Lisa Freeman; framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Lisa, Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File Import Element Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.commailto:r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hello All, FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh). The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema. When we wrap the text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body and we have to reapply the format. We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element. Does anyone have any other ideas? BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, EDD, etc. Thank you in advance! Sincerely, Lisa Freeman Publication Support Analyst E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com ** Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly prohibited. ** ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats SOLVED
Hello All, Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using the textformat structures. I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks! Lisa From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM To: Rick Quatro; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Rick, I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now all body again. It was a good idea though! Thank you, Lisa From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com] Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM To: Lisa Freeman; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Lisa, Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File Import Element Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hello All, FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh). The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema. When we wrap the text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body and we have to reapply the format. We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element. Does anyone have any other ideas? BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, EDD, etc. Thank you in advance! Sincerely, Lisa Freeman Publication Support Analyst E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com ** Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly prohibited. ** ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
Hi Lisa, Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File Import Element Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hello All, FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh). The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema. When we wrap the text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body and we have to reapply the format. We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element. Does anyone have any other ideas? BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, EDD, etc. Thank you in advance! Sincerely, Lisa Freeman Publication Support Analyst E-mail: lfree...@oneil.com ** Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly prohibited. ** ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
Hi, Lisa! Is your EDD set up with all of the paragraph formatting or do you have a separate style sheet? We have used both methods (and a hybrid) here. You may have conflicting formatting rules that are causing the problems. Kristy From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:24 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hello All, FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh). The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema. When we wrap the text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body and we have to reapply the format. We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element. Does anyone have any other ideas? BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, EDD, etc. Thank you in advance! Sincerely, Lisa Freeman Publication Support Analyst E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com ** Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly prohibited. ** *** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE *** This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may contain legally privileged and confidential information intended solely for the use of the addressee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reading, dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. Thank you.___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
I may put a picture of my chest in my signature. From: Lynn Gold [mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM To: Rick Quatro Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa Freeman' Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. Way to go, and welcome back! --Lynn ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
Glad to see you back! -- Emily At 12:21 PM 7/3/2012, Rick Quatro wrote: I may put a picture of my chest in my signature. From: Lynn Gold [ mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM To: Rick Quatro Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa Freeman' Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. Way to go, and welcome back! --Lynn ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as em...@armadillosoft.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/emily%40armadillosoft.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
He said chest, not back. :) Good to know you're OK, Rick! Richard From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Emily Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:30 PM To: Rick Quatro Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Glad to see you back! -- Emily At 12:21 PM 7/3/2012, Rick Quatro wrote: I may put a picture of my chest in my signature. From: Lynn Gold [ mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM To: Rick Quatro Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa Freeman' Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. Way to go, and welcome back! --Lynn ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as em...@armadillosoft.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/emily%40armadillosoft.comhttp://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/em...@armadillosoft.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
Good to see you again, Rick, PTL. For me, a picture of your face would suffice nicely! ;-) Bodvar 2012/7/3 Rick Quatro r...@rickquatro.com I may put a picture of my chest in my signature. ** ** *From:* Lynn Gold [mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM *To:* Rick Quatro *Cc:* framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa Freeman' *Subject:* RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats ** ** Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. Way to go, and welcome back! --Lynn ** ** ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as bod...@gmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bodvar%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. -- Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried. -- Gilbert K. Chesterton ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats
Hi Rick, I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now all body again. It was a good idea though! Thank you, Lisa From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com] Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM To: Lisa Freeman; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hi Lisa, Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File Import Element Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks. Rick Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-283-5045 r...@frameexpert.com From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats Hello All, FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh). The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema. When we wrap the text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body and we have to reapply the format. We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element. Does anyone have any other ideas? BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, EDD, etc. Thank you in advance! Sincerely, Lisa Freeman Publication Support Analyst E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com ** Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly prohibited. ** ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.