Re: Structured Frame saving XML

[hedley . finger]

Trevor:

 Because our XML files are managed by a source control system, ...

... you are using the wrong tool.  Source control systems are meant 
for program source code where line breaks have meaning, usually 
to separate program statements.

You need an XML-aware content management system that understands 
that whitespace (CR, LF, TAB, etc.) must be ignored and that 
the position of attributes in element tags does not matter.

So don't blame FrameMaker.  All XML editors are deficient in this 
regard if you examine their source code.  But then they all 
obey the rules, so this doesn't matter.

Regards,
Hedley

--
Hedley Finger
Training Content Developer and Tools Specialist
MYOB Australia Pty Ltd http://myob.com/au
P.O. box 371   Blackburn VIC 3130   Australia
12 Wesley Court   Tally Ho Business Park   East Burwood VIC 3151 Australia
mailto:hedleyDOTfingerATmyobDOTcom
Tel. +61 3 9222 9992 x 7421,   Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558

© MYOB Technology Pty Ltd 2007
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RE: Structured Frame saving XML

[hedley . finger]

As well as the other suggestions re read/write rules, perhaps you could 
turn Smart Spaces off.
--
Hedley Finger
Training Content Developer and Tools Specialist
MYOB Australia Pty Ltd http://myob.com/au
P.O. box 371   Blackburn VIC 3130   Australia
12 Wesley Court   Tally Ho Business Park   East Burwood VIC 3151 Australia
mailto:hedleyDOTfingerATmyobDOTcom
Tel. +61 3 9222 9992 x 7421,   Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558

© MYOB Technology Pty Ltd 2007
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Structured Frame saving XML

[hedley.fin...@myob.com]

Trevor:

> Because our XML files are managed by a source control system, ...

... you are using the wrong tool.  Source control systems are meant 
for program source code where line breaks have meaning, usually 
to separate program statements.

You need an XML-aware content management system that understands 
that whitespace (CR, LF, TAB, etc.) must be ignored and that 
the position of attributes in element tags does not matter.

So don't blame FrameMaker.  All XML editors are "deficient" in this 
regard if you examine their "source code".  But then they all 
obey the rules, so this doesn't matter.

Regards,
Hedley

--
Hedley Finger
Training Content Developer and Tools Specialist
MYOB Australia Pty Ltd 
P.O. box 371   Blackburn VIC 3130   Australia
12 Wesley Court   Tally Ho Business Park   East Burwood VIC 3151 Australia

Tel. +61 3 9222 9992 x 7421,   Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558

? MYOB Technology Pty Ltd 2007

Structured Frame saving XML

[hedley.fin...@myob.com]

As well as the other suggestions re read/write rules, perhaps you could 
turn Smart Spaces off.
--
Hedley Finger
Training Content Developer and Tools Specialist
MYOB Australia Pty Ltd 
P.O. box 371   Blackburn VIC 3130   Australia
12 Wesley Court   Tally Ho Business Park   East Burwood VIC 3151 Australia

Tel. +61 3 9222 9992 x 7421,   Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558

? MYOB Technology Pty Ltd 2007

Structured Frame saving XML

[Trevor Nicholls]

Hi

Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured Frame. I have XSL
processes running successfully on Open and Save and I have no issues with
the validity of the XML which Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue
with the layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control
system, I would like to minimize the differences between revisions, and
Frame's apparent perversity regarding line-wrapping in particular is making
this difficult.

Is it following any rules at all?
Can we know what they are?
Can we change them?

Cheers
Trevor

Structured Frame saving XML

[Trevor Nicholls]

Well... suppose we have a source code fragment following this kind of model:

label {
 word(parameter)
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)
}

where the 'code' element has the #FIXED attributes 'formatted="yes"' and
'xml:space="preserve"' in the DTD.

We want to preserve the line breaks and internal spacing of this element.
This was sufficient to achieve this when we were using 100% XML tools like
Saxon and libxml. Evidently not for Frame. The first change I made was to
introduce a  element into the DTD which our presentation process
recognizes as a marker for a newline, thus the above would be written in our
initial XML file as:

label {
 word(parameter)
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)
}

The first problem is that if Frame's line breaking is so minded, the
internal spacing of this element will be subverted. That's because the line
breaking seems unconcerned about the number of following/preceding spaces.

The second problem is that when I try and recover the spacing within
Framemaker, even though the 'code' element is formatted in a fixed width
font as per the EDD rules, the alignment is neither roundtrippable nor (hard
to believe) is it even predictable at the character level (by which I mean
that words shift by extra fractions of a space as characters are inserted or
deleted).

Does this make sense?

Cheers
Trevor


-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2007 4:28 a.m.
To: trevor at castingthevoid.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Structured Frame saving XML

Trevor Nicholls wrote:

> Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
> Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
> Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
> Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
> layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
> system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
> revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
> line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.

Well, I'm just a dumb unstructured author, but I thought the whole point
of XML, SGML, etc., was to separate content from presentation. If line
wrapping isn't presentation, I don't know what is. 

Maybe I'm confused and don't understand your question. But what does the
line wrapping (or other page layout matters) have to do with the XML
file that you're source-controlling? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

RE: Structured Frame saving XML

[Combs, Richard]

Trevor Nicholls wrote:
 
 Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
 Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
 Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
 Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
 layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
 system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
 revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
 line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.

Well, I'm just a dumb unstructured author, but I thought the whole point
of XML, SGML, etc., was to separate content from presentation. If line
wrapping isn't presentation, I don't know what is. 

Maybe I'm confused and don't understand your question. But what does the
line wrapping (or other page layout matters) have to do with the XML
file that you're source-controlling? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




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RE: Structured Frame saving XML

[Trevor Nicholls]

Well... suppose we have a source code fragment following this kind of model:

codelabel {
 word(parameter)
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)
}/code

where the 'code' element has the #FIXED attributes 'formatted=yes' and
'xml:space=preserve' in the DTD.

We want to preserve the line breaks and internal spacing of this element.
This was sufficient to achieve this when we were using 100% XML tools like
Saxon and libxml. Evidently not for Frame. The first change I made was to
introduce a nl element into the DTD which our presentation process
recognizes as a marker for a newline, thus the above would be written in our
initial XML file as:

codelabel {nl /
 word(parameter)nl /
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)nl /
}/code

The first problem is that if Frame's line breaking is so minded, the
internal spacing of this element will be subverted. That's because the line
breaking seems unconcerned about the number of following/preceding spaces.

The second problem is that when I try and recover the spacing within
Framemaker, even though the 'code' element is formatted in a fixed width
font as per the EDD rules, the alignment is neither roundtrippable nor (hard
to believe) is it even predictable at the character level (by which I mean
that words shift by extra fractions of a space as characters are inserted or
deleted).

Does this make sense?

Cheers
Trevor


-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2007 4:28 a.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Structured Frame saving XML

Trevor Nicholls wrote:
 
 Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
 Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
 Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
 Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
 layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
 system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
 revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
 line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.

Well, I'm just a dumb unstructured author, but I thought the whole point
of XML, SGML, etc., was to separate content from presentation. If line
wrapping isn't presentation, I don't know what is. 

Maybe I'm confused and don't understand your question. But what does the
line wrapping (or other page layout matters) have to do with the XML
file that you're source-controlling? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




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Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Structured Frame saving XML

[Kenneth C. Benson]

From: Trevor Nicholls [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Because our XML files are managed by a source control
 system, I would like to minimize the differences between revisions, and
 Frame's apparent perversity regarding line-wrapping in particular is
making
 this difficult.

 Is it following any rules at all?
 Can we know what they are?
 Can we change them?


What perversity? Yes, text wrap does follow rules, you can know what the
rules are, and you can change them. Of course, you should expect the wrap to
change between revisions. I mean, you're changing the text, right? What you
should not expect is for the text wrap to change in text that has not been
revised. Unchanged text should wrap exactly the same way every time you flow
it in.

Most of the controls that affect text wrap are to be found in the Advanced
tab of Paragraph Designer. But, of course, things like indents and font size
will affect it as well.

Kenneth Benson
Pegasus Type, Inc.
www.pegtype.com

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RE: Structured Frame saving XML

[Matt Sullivan]

Regarding the internal spacing and line breaks within the XML...

The description I've always lived by is that Frame creates equivalent, not
exact XML (or SGML). I recall a few posts by Dan E relating to things that
change like entity names and XRef Id's.

Have you tried using the files in your Structured App (R/W Rules, DTD  EDD)
to tighten up the export to XML?

After that, possibly an FDK fix, or script(s) to normalize the file with
your specific XML requirements?

 

-Matt Sullivan

 

GRAFIX Training, Inc.

An Adobe Authorized Training Center

www.grafixtraining.com

888 882-2819 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Trevor Nicholls
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:52 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Structured Frame saving XML

Well... suppose we have a source code fragment following this kind of model:

codelabel {
 word(parameter)
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)
}/code

where the 'code' element has the #FIXED attributes 'formatted=yes' and
'xml:space=preserve' in the DTD.

We want to preserve the line breaks and internal spacing of this element.
This was sufficient to achieve this when we were using 100% XML tools like
Saxon and libxml. Evidently not for Frame. The first change I made was to
introduce a nl element into the DTD which our presentation process
recognizes as a marker for a newline, thus the above would be written in our
initial XML file as:

codelabel {nl /
 word(parameter)nl /
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)nl /
}/code

The first problem is that if Frame's line breaking is so minded, the
internal spacing of this element will be subverted. That's because the line
breaking seems unconcerned about the number of following/preceding spaces.

The second problem is that when I try and recover the spacing within
Framemaker, even though the 'code' element is formatted in a fixed width
font as per the EDD rules, the alignment is neither roundtrippable nor (hard
to believe) is it even predictable at the character level (by which I mean
that words shift by extra fractions of a space as characters are inserted or
deleted).

Does this make sense?

Cheers
Trevor


-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2007 4:28 a.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Structured Frame saving XML

Trevor Nicholls wrote:
 
 Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
 Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
 Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
 Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
 layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
 system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
 revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
 line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.

Well, I'm just a dumb unstructured author, but I thought the whole point
of XML, SGML, etc., was to separate content from presentation. If line
wrapping isn't presentation, I don't know what is. 

Maybe I'm confused and don't understand your question. But what does the
line wrapping (or other page layout matters) have to do with the XML
file that you're source-controlling? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




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m

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Structured Frame saving XML

[Combs, Richard]

Trevor Nicholls wrote:

> Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
> Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
> Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
> Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
> layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
> system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
> revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
> line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.

Well, I'm just a dumb unstructured author, but I thought the whole point
of XML, SGML, etc., was to separate content from presentation. If line
wrapping isn't presentation, I don't know what is. 

Maybe I'm confused and don't understand your question. But what does the
line wrapping (or other page layout matters) have to do with the XML
file that you're source-controlling? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Structured Frame Saving XML

[Daniel Emory]

What, exactly, do you mean by Frame's "perversity" in
line wrapping? What, exactly, are you comparing it
with on the XML side? 

Frame's line wrapping actions are dependent upon
settings in the paragraph designer, including: 

* Under Advanced (automatic hyphenation)
* Under Basic (indents).

--- Trevor Nicholls  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Our source documents are in XML and we edit in
> structured Frame. I have XSL
> processes running successfully on Open and Save and
> I have no issues with
> the validity of the XML which Frame is giving me.
> However I do have an issue
> with the layout. Because our XML files are managed
> by a source control
> system, I would like to minimize the differences
> between revisions, and
> Frame's apparent perversity regarding line-wrapping
> in particular is making
> this difficult.
> 
> Is it following any rules at all?
> Can we know what they are?
> Can we change them?
> 
> Cheers
> Trevor


Dan Emory & Associates
FrameMaker/FrameMaker+SGML Document Design & Database Publishing

Structured Frame saving XML

[Andrew Avis]

> Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
> Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
> Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
> Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
> layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
> system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
> revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
> line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.
> 
> Is it following any rules at all?
> Can we know what they are?
> Can we change them?

Hi Trevor, look at the "line break" and "preserve line breaks" rules in the
Structure Application Developer's Guide manual for your read/write rules
file. 

Drew Avis - Technical Writer
QNX Software Systems Ltd.
Ottawa, Ontario

Structured Frame saving XML

[Kenneth C. Benson]

From: "Trevor Nicholls" 

> Because our XML files are managed by a source control
> system, I would like to minimize the differences between revisions, and
> Frame's apparent perversity regarding line-wrapping in particular is
making
> this difficult.
>
> Is it following any rules at all?
> Can we know what they are?
> Can we change them?


What perversity? Yes, text wrap does follow rules, you can know what the
rules are, and you can change them. Of course, you should expect the wrap to
change between revisions. I mean, you're changing the text, right? What you
should not expect is for the text wrap to change in text that has not been
revised. Unchanged text should wrap exactly the same way every time you flow
it in.

Most of the controls that affect text wrap are to be found in the Advanced
tab of Paragraph Designer. But, of course, things like indents and font size
will affect it as well.

Kenneth Benson
Pegasus Type, Inc.
www.pegtype.com

Structured Frame saving XML

[Matt Sullivan]

Regarding the internal spacing and line breaks within the XML...

The description I've always lived by is that Frame creates equivalent, not
exact XML (or SGML). I recall a few posts by Dan E relating to things that
change like entity names and XRef Id's.

Have you tried using the files in your Structured App (R/W Rules, DTD & EDD)
to tighten up the export to XML?

After that, possibly an FDK fix, or script(s) to normalize the file with
your specific XML requirements?



-Matt Sullivan



GRAFIX Training, Inc.

An Adobe Authorized Training Center

www.grafixtraining.com

888 882-2819 


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+matt=grafixtraining@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+matt=grafixtraining.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Trevor Nicholls
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:52 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Structured Frame saving XML

Well... suppose we have a source code fragment following this kind of model:

label {
 word(parameter)
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)
}

where the 'code' element has the #FIXED attributes 'formatted="yes"' and
'xml:space="preserve"' in the DTD.

We want to preserve the line breaks and internal spacing of this element.
This was sufficient to achieve this when we were using 100% XML tools like
Saxon and libxml. Evidently not for Frame. The first change I made was to
introduce a  element into the DTD which our presentation process
recognizes as a marker for a newline, thus the above would be written in our
initial XML file as:

label {
 word(parameter)
 long-word   (parameter,   parameter)
}

The first problem is that if Frame's line breaking is so minded, the
internal spacing of this element will be subverted. That's because the line
breaking seems unconcerned about the number of following/preceding spaces.

The second problem is that when I try and recover the spacing within
Framemaker, even though the 'code' element is formatted in a fixed width
font as per the EDD rules, the alignment is neither roundtrippable nor (hard
to believe) is it even predictable at the character level (by which I mean
that words shift by extra fractions of a space as characters are inserted or
deleted).

Does this make sense?

Cheers
Trevor


-Original Message-
From: Combs, Richard [mailto:richard.co...@polycom.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2007 4:28 a.m.
To: trevor at castingthevoid.com; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Structured Frame saving XML

Trevor Nicholls wrote:

> Our source documents are in XML and we edit in structured 
> Frame. I have XSL processes running successfully on Open and 
> Save and I have no issues with the validity of the XML which 
> Frame is giving me. However I do have an issue with the 
> layout. Because our XML files are managed by a source control 
> system, I would like to minimize the differences between 
> revisions, and Frame's apparent perversity regarding 
> line-wrapping in particular is making this difficult.

Well, I'm just a dumb unstructured author, but I thought the whole point
of XML, SGML, etc., was to separate content from presentation. If line
wrapping isn't presentation, I don't know what is. 

Maybe I'm confused and don't understand your question. But what does the
line wrapping (or other page layout matters) have to do with the XML
file that you're source-controlling? 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




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