Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 29/08/2011 20:58, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). From a recent post to -questions: Alas, during a recent kernel build, I used the -j2 command line option in make and watched as the scheduler repeatedly assigned two instances of cc (the most CPU-intensive program) to the same core. I'm not sure this is something we're really better at, unfortunately: I know I've watched Windows really grok multi-socket, multi-core HyperThreaded systems and prefer real cores on the same NUMA node when running a multi-threaded application, whereas it seems FreeBSD struggles sometimes. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 30 August 2011 13:13, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html -- wbr, pluknet ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
Hello.
I'm building world with CLANG (or I pretend to do so).
In my /etc/make.conf I use these lines:
###
### CLANG
###
.if defined(USE_CLANG)
.if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*)
CFLAGS= -O3 -march=native -mtune=native -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe
COPTFLAGS= -O3 -march=native -mtune=native -pipe
.if !defined(CC) || ${CC} == cc
CC=clang
.endif
.if !defined(CXX) || ${CXX} == c++
CXX=clang++
.endif
# Don't die on warnings
NO_WERROR=
WERROR=
# Don't forget this when using Jails!
NO_FSCHG=
.endif
.endif
Somewhere at the top of the file I set USE_CLANG=yes
Watching the build process of the kernel reveals that the system's
build process still involves the cc when building some portions of the
UFS, VFS and so on.
As shown below, several essential portions of the kernel aren't built
by clang, that includes VFS, NFS, UFS et cetera.
Am I doing wrong? Or is this no accident and still wanted since
FreeBSD doesn't build completely with CLANG? As far as I understood,
the kernel and core system should be ready to be build with clang as a
whole ...
[...] right at the beginning of the build process ...
cc -O2 -pipe -mtune=native -fno-strict-aliasing -march=native -std=c99
-Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes
-Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef
-Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs
-fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys
-I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/ipfilter
-I/usr/src/sys/contrib/pf -I/usr/src/sys/dev/ath
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/ath/ath_hal -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/ngatm
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/twa -I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs/FreeBSD
-I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs/FreeBSD/support -I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/cxgb -I/usr/src/sys/dev/cxgbe -D_KERNEL
-DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -finline-limit=8000
--param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000
-fno-omit-frame-pointer -mno-sse -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone
-mno-mmx -msoft-float -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding
-fstack-protector -c /usr/src/sys/compat/ia32/ia32_genassym.c
cc -c -O2 -pipe -mtune=native -fno-strict-aliasing -march=native
-std=c99 -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes
-Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef
-Wno-pointer-sign -fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs
-fdiagnostics-show-option -nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys
-I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/ipfilter
-I/usr/src/sys/contrib/pf -I/usr/src/sys/dev/ath
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/ath/ath_hal -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/ngatm
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/twa -I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs/FreeBSD
-I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs/FreeBSD/support -I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/cxgb -I/usr/src/sys/dev/cxgbe -D_KERNEL
-DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -finline-limit=8000
--param inline-unit-growth=100 --param large-function-growth=1000
-fno-omit-frame-pointer -mno-sse -mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone
-mno-mmx -msoft-float -fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding
-fstack-protector /usr/src/sys/amd64/amd64/genassym.c
awk -f /usr/src/sys/tools/vnode_if.awk /usr/src/sys/kern/vnode_if.src
-h
rpcgen -c /usr/src/sys/kgssapi/gssd.x -o gssd_xdr.c
rpcgen -lM /usr/src/sys/kgssapi/gssd.x | grep -v string.h
gssd_clnt.c
env NM='nm' sh /usr/src/sys/kern/genassym.sh ia32_genassym.o
ia32_assym.h
NM='nm' sh /usr/src/sys/kern/genassym.sh genassym.o assym.s
cc -c -x assembler-with-cpp -DLOCORE -O2 -pipe -mtune=native
-fno-strict-aliasing -march=native -std=c99 -Wall -Wredundant-decls
-Wnested-externs -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes
-Wpointer-arith -Winline -Wcast-qual -Wundef -Wno-pointer-sign
-fformat-extensions -Wmissing-include-dirs -fdiagnostics-show-option
-nostdinc -I. -I/usr/src/sys -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/altq
-I/usr/src/sys/contrib/ipfilter -I/usr/src/sys/contrib/pf
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/ath -I/usr/src/sys/dev/ath/ath_hal
-I/usr/src/sys/contrib/ngatm -I/usr/src/sys/dev/twa
-I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs/FreeBSD
-I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs/FreeBSD/support -I/usr/src/sys/gnu/fs/xfs
-I/usr/src/sys/dev/cxgb -I/usr/src/sys/dev/cxgbe -D_KERNEL
-DHAVE_KERNEL_OPTION_HEADERS -include opt_global.h -fno-common
-finline-limit=8000 --param inline-unit-growth=100 --param
large-function-growth=1000 -fno-omit-frame-pointer -mno-sse
-mcmodel=kernel -mno-red-zone -mno-mmx -msoft-float
-fno-asynchronous-unwind-tables -ffreestanding -fstack-protector
-Werror /usr/src/sys/amd64/acpica/acpi_wakecode.S
objcopy -S -O binary acpi_wakecode.o acpi_wakecode.bin
nm -n --defined-only acpi_wakecode.o | while read offset dummy what;
do echo #define ${what} 0x${offset}; done acpi_wakedata.h
file2c -sx 'static char wakecode[] = {' '};'
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 11:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... We havn't started updating the old one and now we start thingking about management and scheduling? I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: possible mountroot regression
So, just to re-iterate, I think that this is indeed a regression and the one
that could be particularly unhelpful for a new release - the time when people
are much more likely to end up at the mountroot prompt during an installation of
a new system or an upgrade.
on 29/08/2011 23:19 Andriy Gapon said the following:
on 29/08/2011 19:45 Marcel Moolenaar said the following:
On Aug 29, 2011, at 1:21 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote:
on 27/08/2011 18:16 Marcel Moolenaar said the following:
On Aug 26, 2011, at 2:07 PM, Andriy Gapon wrote:
It seems that after the introduction of the mountroot scripting language
a user
now has exactly one chance to try to specify a correct root device at the
mountroot prompt. I am not sure that that is convenient/enough.
This is no different from before.
Are you sure?
I remember trying multiple (incorrect) possibilities at the prompt and not
getting the panic. But I know that sometimes I have cases of false
memories,
so _I_ am not sure.
I'm sure now that we're both not sure :-)
It's possible the failure mode varied by how the root mount
failed...
Judging from the code before r214006 it shouldn't have panic-ed upon such a
failure:
static int
vfs_mountroot_ask(void)
{
char name[128];
char *mountfrom;
char *options;
for(;;) {
...
gets(name, sizeof(name), 1);
if (name[0] == '\0')
return (1);
if (name[0] == '?') {
printf(\nList of GEOM managed disk devices:\n );
g_dev_print();
continue;
}
if (!vfs_mountroot_try(name, NULL))
return (0);
}
}
So this endless loop was exited only if vfs_mountroot_try() returned success
(error == 0) or if a user entered an empty string.
--
Andriy Gapon
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Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
Hi, read this - http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011- August/thread.html#26468 Using the /etc/make.conf with CURDIR approach seems to be broken from some time now ... I would also recommend you to move the clang stuff for base system where it belongs ( /etc/src.conf .. see src.conf(5) ). ## # FreeBSD source tree config options .if !defined(NO_CLANG) CC=clang CXX=clang++ # Don't die on warnings NO_WERROR= WERROR= CFLAGS+=-O2 # Don't forget this when using Jails! #NO_FSCHG= .endif (That's more or less how my /etc/src.conf is ) or you could just change this : .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) to this : .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) || !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/obj/*) Choose whatever you like. Cheers. -- -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCS/M/MU d-x s+:- !a C++(+++)@$ UBLVS$ P+ L+++() E- W++ N++(+++) o K- w--- !O- M-@ !V PS++@ PE? Y+ PGP+++ t- 5? X- R* tv-- b+ DI+ D+(++) G h-- r++@ z?** --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... I agree with you. But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 12:09, Alex Kuster wrote: Hi, read this - http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011- August/thread.html#26468 Using the /etc/make.conf with CURDIR approach seems to be broken from some time now ... I would also recommend you to move the clang stuff for base system where it belongs ( /etc/src.conf .. see src.conf(5) ). My first inyutive intention was this stuff belongs to /etc/src.conf(5) but then I read that in /etc/src.conf there should be only varibales defined by YES or NO to trigger some knobs. And: I was told that the CLANG_ stuff belongs to /etc/make.conf since there were several dependencies triggered by make.conf which ist needed for a clean build. I'm really confused now! Thanks a lot anyway. ## # FreeBSD source tree config options .if !defined(NO_CLANG) CC=clang CXX=clang++ # Don't die on warnings NO_WERROR= WERROR= CFLAGS+=-O2 # Don't forget this when using Jails! #NO_FSCHG= .endif (That's more or less how my /etc/src.conf is ) or you could just change this : .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) to this : .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) || !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/obj/*) Choose whatever you like. Cheers. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
2011/8/30 Alex Kuster vertex.symph...@gmail.com:
I would also recommend you to move the clang stuff for base system where it
belongs ( /etc/src.conf .. see src.conf(5) ).
From http://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang
Add the following lines to /etc/make.conf:
.if !defined(CC) || ${CC} == cc
CC=clang
.endif
.if !defined(CXX) || ${CXX} == c++
CXX=clang++
.endif
.if !defined(CPP) || ${CPP} == cpp
CPP=clang -E
.endif
# Don't die on warnings
NO_WERROR=
WERROR=
# Don't forget this when using Jails!
NO_FSCHG=
So make.conf seems to be the good place.
--
Olivier Smedts _
ASCII ribbon campaign ( )
e-mail: oliv...@gid0.org - against HTML email vCards X
www: http://www.gid0.org - against proprietary attachments / \
Il y a seulement 10 sortes de gens dans le monde :
ceux qui comprennent le binaire,
et ceux qui ne le comprennent pas.
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Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 12:09, Alex Kuster wrote: Hi, read this - http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011- August/thread.html#26468 Using the /etc/make.conf with CURDIR approach seems to be broken from some time now ... I would also recommend you to move the clang stuff for base system where it belongs ( /etc/src.conf .. see src.conf(5) ). ## # FreeBSD source tree config options .if !defined(NO_CLANG) CC=clang CXX=clang++ # Don't die on warnings NO_WERROR= WERROR= CFLAGS+=-O2 # Don't forget this when using Jails! #NO_FSCHG= .endif (That's more or less how my /etc/src.conf is ) With this setup only in /etc/src.conf, build process will die soon due to an unrecognized/unsused compiler option std99! I guess there is some NO_WERROR=/WERROR setting your /etc/make.conf left and that is why src.conf seems at the moment not the right place/only place to put things. or you could just change this : .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) to this : .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) || !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/obj/*) Choose whatever you like. Cheers. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 15:14, Olivier Smedts wrote:
2011/8/30 Alex Kustervertex.symph...@gmail.com:
I would also recommend you to move the clang stuff for base system where it
belongs ( /etc/src.conf .. see src.conf(5) ).
From http://wiki.freebsd.org/BuildingFreeBSDWithClang
Add the following lines to /etc/make.conf:
.if !defined(CC) || ${CC} == cc
CC=clang
.endif
.if !defined(CXX) || ${CXX} == c++
CXX=clang++
.endif
.if !defined(CPP) || ${CPP} == cpp
CPP=clang -E
.endif
# Don't die on warnings
NO_WERROR=
WERROR=
# Don't forget this when using Jails!
NO_FSCHG=
So make.conf seems to be the good place.
But as the previous poster referred to, there was an issue with CURDIR
settings which do not work
properly anymore. The suggestions from the WIKI set a global use of
CLANG, even for ports, which I do not
want since many ports do not build properly or refuse to build when
compiled with CLANG. And I don't
want to switch/edit /etc/make.conf everytime I build a world and then
edit back when doing simple
daily/weekly port-upgrades.
For the ease of use, in such a case the whole CLANG YES or NO
switches/knobs/stuff should really be
triggered only by /etc/src.conf, since this location intuitively
suggests it is the right place (as my Emglish understanding
of the manpage of src.conf(5) is correct and this place is the place for
the WORLD's stuff).
oh
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Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Sorry, my fault, my stupid. One bonus less on FreeBSD :-( On 08/30/11 15:45, Paul Ambrose wrote: I do not believe the current status of DTrace is appropriate for promoting 1. DTrace is an experimental function or Semi-finished products. The kernel dtrace support is ok, but the userland support is far from completion(at least the pid provider has many bugs) 2 the FreeBSD implementation is different from Solaris/Mac OS X. The DTraceToolkit, which has many amazing feature, can not 100% works on FreeBSD, and there is no doc to identify the difference. 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. 2011/8/30 Sergey Kandaurovpluk...@gmail.com On 30 August 2011 13:13, Hartmann, O.ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html -- wbr, pluknet ___ freebsd-performa...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-performance-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-performa...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-performance-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... I agree with you. But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? And by the way, if our community would be that proud and big as it was eleven years ago, I'm pretty sure there would already be a Wiki driven by a third party! So it is a wise advisory to sit there and wait for a third party, whatever this party may look alike? Just my opinion about that. Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 30/08/2011 15:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. You're wrong :) I write Windows drivers for a living, so I care about that stuff. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 16:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? Sorry, I forgot about that, you're completely right! Most engineers are very keen on their own products and they know each feature by the forename, so to speak. But this delegates us into the complicated situation, that there should exist someone which is deep inside all of the compared operating systems. And I still doubt that we will find such a person, since if this would exist noadays and such a person is motivated to do a comparison, it would have been done and happened already! If a comparison page is driven by the developer themselves and open to be seen by everyone, even the other party or people fund of the other ones, they could sign some requests in the mailing lists. But I guess it would be hard to find a common aggreement. Whenever a benchmark has been started at PHORONIX, so far as I know, and I watch them very carefully, and FreeBSD's bad performance related to threaded I/O come to discussion, which is, in my naive opinion, a very essential part of the OS and its performnce (and compared to Linux FreeBSD performs really bad!), a discussion got loose with the outcome, that many energy has been emitted for excusions, critics on the way the benchmark has been performed and what OS version has been taken into the test blablabla ... and effectively everything is stuck as before. It is like a street scene in Italy or Turkey, someone shouts in the narrow street, something bad happens, the people open their windows, starting shouting crisscross each other, making a lot of noise and then, suddenly, all windows slap close and a devine silnce enters the whole scene and still the bad thing is unsolved (say, ad corps in the street bleeding ...) ... I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I do not believe the current status of DTrace is appropriate for promoting 1. DTrace is an experimental function or Semi-finished products. The kernel dtrace support is ok, but the userland support is far from completion(at least the pid provider has many bugs) 2 the FreeBSD implementation is different from Solaris/Mac OS X. The DTraceToolkit, which has many amazing feature, can not 100% works on FreeBSD, and there is no doc to identify the difference. 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. 2011/8/30 Sergey Kandaurov pluk...@gmail.com On 30 August 2011 13:13, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html -- wbr, pluknet ___ freebsd-performa...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-performance-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/30/2011 10:30 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. As a casual user and a staunch supporter, I would strongly disagree with you here. if a third party wiki (even Wikipedia) contained such a comparison, I would question it's validity moreso then if the project itself were to maintain a release-based comprison of currently supported branches (7.x, 8.x, 9.x*, etc) vs a selected choice of mainstream Linux Distro's, OS X Server and Windows 2003/2008. But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking and may require the work of many dedicated people (new/active marketing team?) It should very much be done by FreeBSD as a project and should be taken seriously as a marketing technique, the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
on 30/08/2011 16:45 Paul Ambrose said the following: I do not believe the current status of DTrace is appropriate for promoting 1. DTrace is an experimental function or Semi-finished products. The kernel dtrace support is ok, but the userland support is far from completion(at least the pid provider has many bugs) 2 the FreeBSD implementation is different from Solaris/Mac OS X. The DTraceToolkit, which has many amazing feature, can not 100% works on FreeBSD, and there is no doc to identify the difference. 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. 4. There is a missing developer/maintainer for DTrace on FreeBSD. Nevertheless the kernel DTrace is quite usable and useful for kernel debugging. -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
[patch] Improved error output from sysctl
If malloc() fails in /sbin/sysctl, the error message is unhelpful. This patch helps identify which sysctl entry is failing. sysctl.diff Description: Binary data -Andrew -- Andrew Boyerabo...@averesystems.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: possible mountroot regression
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:01 AM, Andriy Gapon a...@freebsd.org wrote: So, just to re-iterate, I think that this is indeed a regression and the one that could be particularly unhelpful for a new release - the time when people are much more likely to end up at the mountroot prompt during an installation of a new system or an upgrade. Agreed -- in particular some of the changes that are incoming for old users, i.e. atacam. Better to leave a good experience with FreeBSD than a bad taste in someone's mouth because of undesirable behavior. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
troubles with 9.0 beta2 installer
Hi Some trouble in FreeBSD 9.0-beta2 Installer: a) Infinity loop of Dialog in Network Configuration stage when static IP selected without default gw: How to reproduce: Would you like to configure IPv4 for this interface - (set Y) Would you like to use DHCP to configure this interface - (set N) IP Address: (set 10.0.0.1 for example) Subnet Mask: (set 255.255.255.0 for example) Default Router: (leave blank) - After this, installer teleport to select interfaces dialog silenty b) Installer helpless where GPT table is broken: How to reproduce: 1) Install fresh system by default (GPT table) 2) Reboot in liveCD mode and overwrite last bytes (where GPT have backup). For exampe by gmirror label: gmirror label -v -b round-robin data ada0 3) Reboot with the installer and try install system by default to get a lot of windows without options: Error: Operation not permitted. table ada0 is corrupt Error: Device busy Operation not permtted File exists. geom 'ada0' this situation require LiveCD shell with gpt recover command ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 2011-08-30 11:48, Hartmann, O. wrote: I'm building world with CLANG (or I pretend to do so). In my /etc/make.conf I use these lines: ### ### CLANG ### .if defined(USE_CLANG) .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) You should add || !empty(.CURDIR:M:/usr/obj*) to this .if statement, because the build build process changes to directories inside /usr/obj for various steps. Alternatively, use the simpler: .if empty(.CURDIR:N/usr/src*:N/usr/obj*) Alternatively, just remove the statement, and use clang for everything, and help fix bugs in ports. :) CFLAGS= -O3 -march=native -mtune=native -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe COPTFLAGS= -O3 -march=native -mtune=native -pipe Take care when using clang and -march=native, there are still some issues with it (search this mailing list for specifics). If anything goes wrong, first revert to the default CFLAGS and COPTFLAGS (e.g. comment them out), and try again. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 06:34 PM, Chris Brennan wrote: But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking Yep, it's not trivial... and right now, I have no idea to make it easier... -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/30/2011 12:21 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 06:34 PM, Chris Brennan wrote: But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking Yep, it's not trivial... and right now, I have no idea to make it easier... I do have any idea ... but I don't want to be the one spearheading such a project, I lack the technical skills or the professional expertise to lead this project, but I will certainly contribute if and where possible... -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... Because I honestly though that src.conf was for freebsd sources as indicated by the manpage (and in fact, compiled sources that way without issues ... ¿?) Anyways, I'll read more about what you guys pointed me. Thanks again. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 30/08/2011 17:43, Chris Brennan wrote: I do have any idea ... but I don't want to be the one spearheading such a project, I lack the technical skills or the professional expertise to lead this project, but I will certainly contribute if and where possible... I could probably contribute too, since I know quite a bit about Windows and FreeBSD, and I'd be keen to learn about Linux (it would give me a reason to read the copy of Essential Linux Device Drivers I bought!). However I don't have a lot of time at the moment so I certainly couldn't lead the project. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 17:34, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/30/2011 10:30 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. As a casual user and a staunch supporter, I would strongly disagree with you here. if a third party wiki (even Wikipedia) contained such a comparison, I would question it's validity moreso then if the project itself were to maintain a release-based comprison of currently supported branches (7.x, 8.x, 9.x*, etc) vs a selected choice of mainstream Linux Distro's, OS X Server and Windows 2003/2008. But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking and may require the work of many dedicated people (new/active marketing team?) It should very much be done by FreeBSD as a project and should be taken seriously as a marketing technique, the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. FreeBSd hasn't the market is may have had in the past and the lack of developer is always brought up when it comes to the lack of features. So you would found a marketing team? Professionals? Who cares for the costs in money and manpower for that? This is why things get drown like a young puppy dog. There are some essential facts the different operating systems differ in. Even the *BSD UNIX systems do have those and it could be a nice thing to gather some aspects together and compare them. It would be hard to make any ground against Linux these days - this is what I gathered in the past two years desperately looking for a support of GPGPU vailability in *BSD. This is only one small aspect, but I guess there are more. On the other hand, I'm not deep inside the system and if there is no source of a half-way trustworthy webpage telling a story about different aspects of development and decently written terms of how FreeBSD is a bit better than others ...what can I propagade to my colleagues and others? Well, everything new and everything unprofessional but true is much better than the old smiley-infested webpage. Think of people starting with an OpenSource OS or starting being courios about the *BSDs. I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! New people do not even know that the FreeBSD was once a backend of many big companies due to its rockstable network stack. Roumors said, that even Microsofts MSN was backed up by FreeBSD. But today, this doesn't count anymore. Operating systems are workhorses, not pieces of art keeping and replenish their value. The art of programming is its clarity cleaness and this is not aproved by the developer himself, this is a attribute which is earned by those who has to administer and develop for such an OS. And I guess compared to Linux, there are big diffrences. Since I have to administer my CUDA/TESLA cluster (since FreeBSD's lack of support for that we needed to switch over), I'm scared about the mess the distributions celebrate. In my opinion, Linux is scripted to death in many aspects and without the distro's management tools, there is no straight passage to the problem's core anymore! That is maybe a foggy sight of things since I'm with BSD systems since my first private DECstation 5000/133 with a good old 4.3 RENO BSD and I havn't already understood the Linux' philosophy. But there must also be a reason why network-responsible administrators favour BSD based firewalls but have to workd with Linux due to the contracts of the companies ... ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 18:20, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 11:48, Hartmann, O. wrote: I'm building world with CLANG (or I pretend to do so). In my /etc/make.conf I use these lines: ### ### CLANG ### .if defined(USE_CLANG) .if !empty(.CURDIR:M/usr/src*) You should add || !empty(.CURDIR:M:/usr/obj*) to this .if statement, because the build build process changes to directories inside /usr/obj for various steps. Alternatively, use the simpler: .if empty(.CURDIR:N/usr/src*:N/usr/obj*) Alternatively, just remove the statement, and use clang for everything, and help fix bugs in ports. :) :-) I would, if I did not desperately have to rely on a working box for now. I forgot the above addition. Will try it - or better, leave it alone and try helping buxfixing ... CFLAGS= -O3 -march=native -mtune=native -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe COPTFLAGS= -O3 -march=native -mtune=native -pipe Take care when using clang and -march=native, there are still some issues with it (search this mailing list for specifics). If anything goes wrong, first revert to the default CFLAGS and COPTFLAGS (e.g. comment them out), and try again. Yes, I know, but I never had problems on my older Core2 based chips. The newer laptop CPU, a Core-i5 Lynnfield does have issues. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... I aggree. It is, indeed. Because I honestly though that src.conf was for freebsd sources as indicated by the manpage (and in fact, compiled sources that way without issues ... ¿?) Anyways, I'll read more about what you guys pointed me. Thanks again. I tried hard the last two hours and had no success compiling my world by setting up only /etc/src.conf. And even with only those things left in /etc/make.conf like NO_WERROR and WERROR I wasn't able to compile the system. I permuted now many options and I'm back to the suggestiosn from the Wiki. But that leaves me with a manual switching back to the old compiler when it comes to ports. From my naive perspective, it should be easy to sort things out without being an expert in how the whole system is dependend on some make-set variables. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 09:45:09PM +0800, Paul Ambrose wrote: 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. We just need someone who wants to spend a lot of time working on it. Without that, there is no point in putting up a schedule. mcl ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. Now, why do some settings, such as CFLAGS, in src.conf not always work correctly? Because src.conf is only read when bsd.own.mk is included (implicitly or explicitly) in a Makefile, and this is *not* always done at the start of the file. On the other hand, make.conf is read from /usr/share/sys.mk, which is automatically included before anything else is done. Take, for example, the Makefile for cp(1), in /usr/src/bin/cp (I prefixed line numbers for reference): 1: # @(#)Makefile8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93 2: # $FreeBSD: head/bin/cp/Makefile 192586 2009-05-22 15:56:43Z trasz $ 3: 4: PROG= cp 5: SRCS= cp.c utils.c 6: CFLAGS+= -DVM_AND_BUFFER_CACHE_SYNCHRONIZED -D_ACL_PRIVATE 7: 8: .include bsd.prog.mk At line 1, make will already have read make.conf, picking up settings from it. Suppose it picks up CFLAGS=-foo. At line 6, CFLAGS has several flags appended. Its value will then become -foo -DVM_AND_BUFFER_CACHE_SYNCHRONIZED -D_ACL_PRIVATE. At line 8, bsd.prog.mk is read, which (through bsd.own.mk) belatedly reads src.conf. If you have a setting such as CFLAGS=-bar in it, this value will *override* the previous one, possibly having disastrous consequences. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 19:58, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. This is as I understood the manpage of src.conf. There is only a YES/set and NO/unset. Well, I might be wrong, but FreeBSD separates strictly the core operating system and the ports stuff. When it came to CLANG compiled core system and I read about src.conf, my intuitive thinking was that this is the long awaited separation from having everything mixed in /etc/make.conf (by the way, somehow I feel I would all the ports stuff, even it make.conf, looking for at /usr/local/etc/make.conf ...). Now, why do some settings, such as CFLAGS, in src.conf not always work correctly? Because src.conf is only read when bsd.own.mk is included (implicitly or explicitly) in a Makefile, and this is *not* always done at the start of the file. On the other hand, make.conf is read from /usr/share/sys.mk, which is automatically included before anything else is done. Take, for example, the Makefile for cp(1), in /usr/src/bin/cp (I prefixed line numbers for reference): 1: # @(#)Makefile8.1 (Berkeley) 5/31/93 2: # $FreeBSD: head/bin/cp/Makefile 192586 2009-05-22 15:56:43Z trasz $ 3: 4: PROG= cp 5: SRCS= cp.c utils.c 6: CFLAGS+= -DVM_AND_BUFFER_CACHE_SYNCHRONIZED -D_ACL_PRIVATE 7: 8: .include bsd.prog.mk At line 1, make will already have read make.conf, picking up settings from it. Suppose it picks up CFLAGS=-foo. At line 6, CFLAGS has several flags appended. Its value will then become -foo -DVM_AND_BUFFER_CACHE_SYNCHRONIZED -D_ACL_PRIVATE. At line 8, bsd.prog.mk is read, which (through bsd.own.mk) belatedly reads src.conf. If you have a setting such as CFLAGS=-bar in it, this value will *override* the previous one, possibly having disastrous consequences. Great! Many thanks, this is a nice explanation. With such detailed info it's a bit easier to hunt down the mistakes I made for my own. Thanks again. Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
on 30/08/2011 18:39 Andriy Gapon said the following: 4. There is a missing developer/maintainer for DTrace on FreeBSD. I probably should clarify this point: it doesn't have to be *the* maintainer, a collective maintainer is also perfect. Thus, contributions are very welcome. Nevertheless the kernel DTrace is quite usable and useful for kernel debugging. -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/27/11 3:32 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. I think that it also clashes with the positive tone that (I've experienced) in most of the website copy, discussions on this mailing list, and other parts of the FreeBSD project. We have an awesome project, we don't really need to put down everyone else to make ourselves look good. -- Sean Collins Core IT Pro, LLC www.coreitpro.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 19:58, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. This is as I understood the manpage of src.conf. There is only a YES/set and NO/unset. No. There is only set and unset. WITH_option=NO has the same effect as WITH_option=YES. I think this is confusing and often leads to unintended consequences, but I and also say that some of the WITH_options documented for src.conf (the man page is auto-generated from the code) are either non-functional or broken. I've had some interesting issues with unexpected interactions of WITH_options, as well. Be very careful! -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer - Retired E-mail: kob6...@gmail.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 21:27, Kevin Oberman wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 19:58, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.confsrc.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. This is as I understood the manpage of src.conf. There is only a YES/set and NO/unset. No. There is only set and unset. WITH_option=NO has the same effect as WITH_option=YES. I think this is confusing and often leads to unintended consequences, but I and also say that some of the WITH_options documented for src.conf (the man page is auto-generated from the code) are either non-functional or broken. I've had some interesting issues with unexpected interactions of WITH_options, as well. Be very careful! Sorry being so unprecise. I meant WITH_ and WITHOUT_. I learned the hard way that setting a variable to be set is simply done by naming it. Well, as I understand your comment, it seems that this /etc/src.conf facilty isn't working properly yet? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/30/2011 2:48 PM, Sean M. Collins wrote: On 8/27/11 3:32 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. I think that it also clashes with the positive tone that (I've experienced) in most of the website copy, discussions on this mailing list, and other parts of the FreeBSD project. We have an awesome project, we don't really need to put down everyone else to make ourselves look good. I wasn't implying a putdown and I don't think Garrett Cooper was either, he was merely pointing out that the technology in use today (Tuesday, August 30th, 2011) varies, radically from when http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html was written way back, sometime in the year 2000. The comparison being called for to be updated, needn't be that type of comparison. If in the end, FreeBSD comes out as truly and honestly better then so be it, it turns out to be the under-appreciated underdog, then so be it too. An argument made (by us, the FreeBSD community) to point out the pros and cons of common OS types would undoubtedly hurt and benefit us as a project, but it would also illustrate why FreeBSD is good for applications A-F[1], Linux is good for A-F[1] (but for different reasons), OS-X is good for applications A-C and Microsoft Windows is good for A-C. This is a volunteer project that takes in some monetary values for certain things, but is largely a non-profit/not-for-profit organization aimed at providing a service. Clearly and objectively defining where we stand against our competition should be a major (but not or if not, take your pick) a priority of the project as a whole. If no one else has done it, then we should. Just because we can (and maybe because we should, just because we can). Oliver Heartmann has made some good points, but I tend to disagree with his philosophy. Such a project as this needn't be centered around a monetary base. This isn't a project to start mass-marketing FreeBSD to the mindless masses, but to provide prospective to the Server OS Communities, not to alienate someone because we think we're better. I also disagree with his idea that 'we should let sleeping dogs lie' and not bother to do any of this. It's something we (as a community-driven project) should have done a long time ago. What I do agree with in his views is that such a project should contain some historical perspective, we should always remember where we came from, it's a fundamental aspect to remember so we know where we are going, but that shouldn't be the only factor, at the very basic, we also need to know where we stand at present, not just in cold, hard, unfeeling numbers. But a project that thrives on diversity, much as the societies we live in. Arguments will rise, tempers will flare, people might leave (and fork, as is their right), but FreeBSD will still be here, no less then it was before (except in a slightly diminished user-base for a while). This said, everyone on these mailing lists has an experience that can be contributed to this project[2]. It does not have to be limited to just the FreeBSD Developers describing why we're superior to any other OS (and it rightly shouldn't be just their opinion). In reality, it should be a hodgepodge of opinion from every walk of life. Every person that has participated in this discussion has had different experiences with Microsoft products, BSD products, Apple products and Linux products. And those opinions and experiences are what's going to count. I think I've run out of steam for the moment ... so I shall stop here. [1] Any X-Y definition is not meant to provide any form of clearly defined values to any one OS but to illustrate hypothetical examples. [2] I repeatedly defined this discussion as project because I couldn't think of a different term to use that would aptly and/or correctly describe this discussion. -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
FWIW; Christopher Bergström and Pathscale delivered the EKOPath Compiler Suite, but no one followed up: (From the WantedPorts Wiki) https://github.com/pathscale/path64-suite There has been very low interest in the FreeBSD port, and unfortunately this is a bad signal that we give to companies that want to contribute :(. Pedro. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni giffu...@tutopia.com wrote: FWIW; Christopher Bergström and Pathscale delivered the EKOPath Compiler Suite, but no one followed up: (From the WantedPorts Wiki) https://github.com/pathscale/path64-suite There has been very low interest in the FreeBSD port, and unfortunately this is a bad signal that we give to companies that want to contribute :(. The problem I have with that is that they only support the high-end computing variant of the card which I doubt any of us has. Without the documentation to extend the work to ordinary cards, e.g. my GTX460, it isn't that useful. Thanks ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 21:27, Kevin Oberman wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 19:58, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. This is as I understood the manpage of src.conf. There is only a YES/set and NO/unset. No. There is only set and unset. WITH_option=NO has the same effect as WITH_option=YES. I think this is confusing and often leads to unintended consequences, but I and also say that some of the WITH_options documented for src.conf (the man page is auto-generated from the code) are either non-functional or broken. I've had some interesting issues with unexpected interactions of WITH_options, as well. Be very careful! Sorry being so unprecise. I meant WITH_ and WITHOUT_. I learned the hard way that setting a variable to be set is simply done by naming it. Well, as I understand your comment, it seems that this /etc/src.conf facilty isn't working properly yet? That's a semantic issue. It works as designed in that setting an option in src.conf does set the specified flags for make in /usr/src. Unfortunately some of the options were added as options, but the code to actually make the option effective was not. The more popular options work fine...SENDMAIL, BIND, BSNMP, and many more. Most of those that are simple skips of doing a make on a given directory are fine, too. In fact, most are working as expected. The problems are with more complex options that get involved with complex library dependencies. WITHOUT_SSH was broken for quite a while due to interactions with several other options. (Just look through the Makefiles involved in ssh and the complexity of the other cryto-related tools. It's not trivial and there are way too many options to fully test all possible combinations. (As far as I can tell, SSH issues are now resolved.) I will also point out that several options DO state that they have no effect in the man page, but that assumes people actually read the text associated with a given option. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer - Retired E-mail: kob6...@gmail.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Kevin Oberman kob6...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 21:27, Kevin Oberman wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 19:58, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. This is as I understood the manpage of src.conf. There is only a YES/set and NO/unset. No. There is only set and unset. WITH_option=NO has the same effect as WITH_option=YES. I think this is confusing and often leads to unintended consequences, but I and also say that some of the WITH_options documented for src.conf (the man page is auto-generated from the code) are either non-functional or broken. I've had some interesting issues with unexpected interactions of WITH_options, as well. Be very careful! Sorry being so unprecise. I meant WITH_ and WITHOUT_. I learned the hard way that setting a variable to be set is simply done by naming it. Well, as I understand your comment, it seems that this /etc/src.conf facilty isn't working properly yet? That's a semantic issue. It works as designed in that setting an option in src.conf does set the specified flags for make in /usr/src. Unfortunately some of the options were added as options, but the code to actually make the option effective was not. The more popular options work fine...SENDMAIL, BIND, BSNMP, and many more. Most of those that are simple skips of doing a make on a given directory are fine, too. In fact, most are working as expected. The problems are with more complex options that get involved with complex library dependencies. WITHOUT_SSH was broken for quite a while due to interactions with several other options. (Just look through the Makefiles involved in ssh and the complexity of the other cryto-related tools. It's not trivial and there are way too many options to fully test all possible combinations. (As far as I can tell, SSH issues are now resolved.) I will also point out that several options DO state that they have no effect in the man page, but that assumes people actually read the text associated with a given option. And there are some options which are truly just broken (or simply put -- don't disable / enable things properly). See http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/stable7_build_options/ for an initial idea (there's another one hanging around in another FreeBSD dev's public directory -- I forget whom exactly). HTH, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
On 08/30/11 21:47, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: FWIW; Christopher Bergström and Pathscale delivered the EKOPath Compiler Suite, but no one followed up: (From the WantedPorts Wiki) https://github.com/pathscale/path64-suite There has been very low interest in the FreeBSD port, and unfortunately this is a bad signal that we give to companies that want to contribute :(. Pedro. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Well, that's a pitty and I regret that there is so few interest in this. I had several emails flipping around between C. Bergström and myself since I wanted to test the compiler suite for some software I needed for my thesis, but I never got a copy. Maybe the response was so incredible low he decided not to respond anymore. Since I think the PathScale compiler, even if commercial, would be a breakthrough, since it uses openMP similar HMPP syntax and embedded #pragmas, it would be a tremendous benefit for developers just shifting their code nearly unchanged simply by adjusting their OpenMP #pragma omp towards #pragma hmpp. But the lack of response and non-shown interests shows a undeobtly signal that freeBSD seems to be dead for the HPC community and this could be also an indication for the lack of CUDA support by nVidia, Why performing efforts if no one cares? A great chance seems to have passed by ... Well, the FreeBSD team must leran it the hard way ... ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
But the lack of response and non-shown interests shows a undeobtly signal that freeBSD seems to be dead for the HPC community and this could be also an indication for the lack of CUDA support by nVidia, Why performing efforts if no one cares? A great chance seems to have passed by ... I wouldn't read too much in to it. What was provided only fit a fairly narrow niche. Nvidia won't build their libraries on freebsd until we prove the market which is fairly hard to do when you have to jump through hoops just to get it to run and need to have a linux environment to build the apps. -Kip ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:22:17PM +0200, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 21:47, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: Christopher Bergstr?m and Pathscale delivered the EKOPath Compiler Suite, but no one followed up: (From the WantedPorts Wiki) https://github.com/pathscale/path64-suite There has been very low interest in the FreeBSD port, and unfortunately this is a bad signal that we give to companies that want to contribute :(. Pedro. I've tested pathf90 on FreeBSD 9.0. Once I got it built, I was underwhelmed by its performance. I also found that it could not read its own error message catalogues, which of course make an unpleasant programming experience. -- Steve ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: But the lack of response and non-shown interests shows a undeobtly signal that freeBSD seems to be dead for the HPC community and this could be also an indication for the lack of CUDA support by nVidia, Why performing efforts if no one cares? A great chance seems to have passed by ... I may be interested in CUDA/HPC as well in the near future, and I will likely use some dedicated Linux boxes as compute servers for that purpose. Of course I'd prefer a FreeBSD native solution, but I won't wait for Godot until that materializes out of thin air. Of course, while having native solutions would be great, the next best solution, a working Linuxulator that groks enough Linux drivers to run the Linux OpenCL and other HPC tools would be better than nothing. But not being familiar with the interfaces concerned and not being able to contribute making that happen, I'm not complaining. -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 21:59, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/30/2011 2:48 PM, Sean M. Collins wrote: On 8/27/11 3:32 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. I think that it also clashes with the positive tone that (I've experienced) in most of the website copy, discussions on this mailing list, and other parts of the FreeBSD project. We have an awesome project, we don't really need to put down everyone else to make ourselves look good. I wasn't implying a putdown and I don't think Garrett Cooper was either, he was merely pointing out that the technology in use today (Tuesday, August 30th, 2011) varies, radically from when http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html was written way back, sometime in the year 2000. The comparison being called for to be updated, needn't be that type of comparison. If in the end, FreeBSD comes out as truly and honestly better then so be it, it turns out to be the under-appreciated underdog, then so be it too. An argument made (by us, the FreeBSD community) to point out the pros and cons of common OS types would undoubtedly hurt and benefit us as a project, but it would also illustrate why FreeBSD is good for applications A-F[1], Linux is good for A-F[1] (but for different reasons), OS-X is good for applications A-C and Microsoft Windows is good for A-C. This is a volunteer project that takes in some monetary values for certain things, but is largely a non-profit/not-for-profit organization aimed at providing a service. Clearly and objectively defining where we stand against our competition should be a major (but not or if not, take your pick) a priority of the project as a whole. If no one else has done it, then we should. Just because we can (and maybe because we should, just because we can). Oliver Heartmann has made some good points, but I tend to disagree with his philosophy. Such a project as this needn't be centered around a monetary base. This isn't a project to start mass-marketing FreeBSD to the mindless masses, but to provide prospective to the Server OS Communities, not to alienate someone because we think we're better. I also disagree with his idea that 'we should let sleeping dogs lie' and not bother to do any of this. It's something we (as a community-driven project) should have done a long time ago. Well, there must be a misunderstanding! I never wished FreeBSD be centered around a monetary basis, I'm parsecs away from that! I tend to bring up arguments against commercial focussing. The BSD operating systems earned a great legacy from academic research and even today we all profit from this very academic fundament: focus on exact, clean code. Perfection over the simple dirty just works hacks (I connote Linux with this kind of philosophy and I recall myself an interview between Theo de Raad (OpenBSD) and Linus Torvalds (Linux) in which Torvalds stated that he's not eagerly after perfection and he's accepting some flaws if the overall system works - so or similar). On the contrary without money - no professional developer. And as we see (and suffer), KMS implementation suffers from a professional developer. Most benefits Linux got in the past years came from commercial development. Even ZFS is developed by a former, now oracled commercial company. And this also forces the next question: why has DragonFly BSD got a HAMMER filesystem developed by someone non-profit-developing? My English may be bad and sometimes some misunderstandings arise from that. I didn't mean let sleeping dogs lie. At the moment it is even for someone who was for 15 years with FreeBSD hard to accept, that there is no reason to start with FreeBSD as a server platform, if the workstations have also to be driven by a non-Windows OS and the support for fast graphics is really essential! Guys, I have a bunch of AMD/ATi HD48XX graphics cards running with FreeBSD and I do not dare to logoff the X11 system since then the whole system freezes and need to be reset. This situation lasts now for two years and i wrote a lot of PRs. In the first place, this isn't a OS fault, is X11. But on the second view the situation seems more complicated and interwined. Just the development on X11 has made rapid progress towards new KMS architectures and the stuff I understand to less of to talk in detail about, but I suffer the consequences. For years I ran a whole computer lab and server platform with number cruncher for the meteorological department of an university. After 2003 the situation changed dramatically and today, where CUDA is all over the place, there is no server left because even the server platform suffer from some academic aspects. And we need to face the truth. FreeBSD lives also from a braod basis of acceptance and popularity. If it is only a beloved project by some eccentrics and geeks keen on development, then the system loose touch to the ground of needs. This is overexaggerated, surely, but I see a slight tendency in
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
On 08/30/11 22:14, K. Macy wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Pedro F. Giffunigiffu...@tutopia.com wrote: FWIW; Christopher Bergström and Pathscale delivered the EKOPath Compiler Suite, but no one followed up: (From the WantedPorts Wiki) https://github.com/pathscale/path64-suite There has been very low interest in the FreeBSD port, and unfortunately this is a bad signal that we give to companies that want to contribute :(. The problem I have with that is that they only support the high-end computing variant of the card which I doubt any of us has. Without the documentation to extend the work to ordinary cards, e.g. my GTX460, it isn't that useful. Thanks ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Well, C. Bergström wrote that the major focus is on the TESLA card, but there may be chance that it also is working on the GTX570 or GTX580 (or even the GTX 560Ti, which is also spread around our department for GPGPU stuff). But I never had a chance to test this. I'm no developer and my software is also copied and home-brewn, but I think it was a chance to do a real life test. Since April we run a server with a TESLA M2050, the card the Enzo claims to support. But my time is up by the end of this year and I need to get finnished my thesis so we decided to install Linux for CUDA usage. I left two spare partitions for FreeBSD ... but I never got a call ... Well, if they offer support for expensive card in the first place and we would show and assure that there is potential for the consumer cards, i guess then there will be a motivation to do the development that direction. In this case we, the customer, have to be active! Fact is, that most departments I know (mainly nuclear physics, theoretical meteorologists, astrophysicists and planetologists) do not have high-end GPU computing cards, all of them do have a lot of smaller consumer cards and they run CUDA with incredible results in performance! Well, a TESLA M2050 is much faster, but is is four to five times more the money I have to spend for the low end cards. I think this fact is also known by PatScale as well as it is obvious to me. But if the department realizes that there is a softare/compiler, than their willing to spend more money on maybe a professional card is less frictional. Well, as the advert of PathScales EKOpath compiler promised, there would also be a CUDA support. Could you imagine what kind of Mekka this could be, simply compile CUDA stuff on a FreeBSD box and also having the ability to code the same stuff with HMPP in a next, optimizing step? Well, now I learn to code OpenCL and CUDA and maybe I'm back soon for HMPP. But it seems quite sure that none of the GPGPU stuff will soon be usable on a FreeBSD box. So why avoiding further Linux :-( ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: CLANG; still cc in use when building the WORLD with CLANG?
On 08/30/11 22:25, Kevin Oberman wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 21:27, Kevin Oberman wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.dewrote: On 08/30/11 19:58, Dimitry Andric wrote: On 2011-08-30 18:44, Alex Kuster wrote: Thanks for pointing out those details ! This whole thing about make.conf src.conf is very confusing and gives the impression of something half ported ... The only thing that is half ported at the moment, is an easy use clang to build world switch. This will be properly addressed after 9.0 is released. As to the make.conf/src.conf confusion, it is very simple really: - make.conf is used for system-wide settings, applied to every build using make. - src.conf is used for setting FreeBSD source tree settings, which are always of the form WITH_XXX or WITHOUT_XXX. See src.conf(5) for a full list. Any other make settings, such as CC, CFLAGS, etc, are better specified in make.conf, though the manpage does not tell you so explicitly. This is as I understood the manpage of src.conf. There is only a YES/set and NO/unset. No. There is only set and unset. WITH_option=NO has the same effect as WITH_option=YES. I think this is confusing and often leads to unintended consequences, but I and also say that some of the WITH_options documented for src.conf (the man page is auto-generated from the code) are either non-functional or broken. I've had some interesting issues with unexpected interactions of WITH_options, as well. Be very careful! Sorry being so unprecise. I meant WITH_ and WITHOUT_. I learned the hard way that setting a variable to be set is simply done by naming it. Well, as I understand your comment, it seems that this /etc/src.conf facilty isn't working properly yet? That's a semantic issue. It works as designed in that setting an option in src.conf does set the specified flags for make in /usr/src. Unfortunately some of the options were added as options, but the code to actually make the option effective was not. The more popular options work fine...SENDMAIL, BIND, BSNMP, and many more. Most of those that are simple skips of doing a make on a given directory are fine, too. In fact, most are working as expected. Well, why not moving known working options of the src tree to the /etc/src.conf file and delete them from /etc/make.conf? Maybe this is a soft force to take more care of that? Just a suggestion. I like sometimes the more radical cut if things tend to get stuck. well, my OS is now compiling as expected with completely with CLANG. I missed some news in the list (I can't read everything, so I'm very grateful to people setting up the default config files). The problems are with more complex options that get involved with complex library dependencies. WITHOUT_SSH was broken for quite a while due to interactions with several other options. (Just look through the Makefiles involved in ssh and the complexity of the other cryto-related tools. It's not trivial and there are way too many options to fully test all possible combinations. (As far as I can tell, SSH issues are now resolved.) I will also point out that several options DO state that they have no effect in the man page, but that assumes people actually read the text associated with a given option. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: troubles with 9.0 beta2 installer
On Aug 30, 2011, at 3:33 PM, Oleg Ginzburg wrote: Hi Some trouble in FreeBSD 9.0-beta2 Installer: a) Infinity loop of Dialog in Network Configuration stage when static IP selected without default gw: How to reproduce: Would you like to configure IPv4 for this interface - (set Y) Would you like to use DHCP to configure this interface - (set N) IP Address: (set 10.0.0.1 for example) Subnet Mask: (set 255.255.255.0 for example) Default Router: (leave blank) - After this, installer teleport to select interfaces dialog silenty Can you try: http://people.freebsd.org/~bz/20110831-01-bsdinstall-netconfig.diff If you do not want to re-build a new ISO image you can break to the console mount -t unionfs /tmp /usr/libexec/bsdinstall and patch the files in the latter directory and then restart bsdinstall. /bz -- Bjoern A. Zeeb You have to have visions! Stop bit received. Insert coin for new address family. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Problems booting 9.0-BETA1 memstick
Downloaded FreeBSD-9.0-BETA1-amd64-memstick.img and verified the image with md5sum. I wrote the image (from Linux): dd if=FreeBSD.img of=/dev/sde bs=512 Rebooted and get gptboot: Invalid backup GPT header Ran linux gdisk on usb stick to clear out old GPT info and found in old FreeBSD -release announcements showing bs=10240 conv=sync, so tried: dd if=FreeBSD.img of=/dev/sde bs=10240 conv=sync Rebooted and same gptboot error. Completely cleared the usb stick with: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sde bs=512 dd if=FreeBSD.img of=/dev/sde bs=10240 conv=sync Rebooted and same gptboot error. I've booted FreeBSD via memstick images numerous times, so not sure what the problem is. There a possible bug somewhere and what steps would I take to help locate any bugs related to this? Jason Other info which may help: Copied the image to my FreeBSD laptop, rechecked md5, and plugged in the usb stick. dmesg had: GEOM: da0: the secondary GPT header is not in the last LBA. and ran: [syskill@jupiter ~]$ sudo gpart show da0 Password: = 34 1333293 da0 GPT (7.7G) [CORRUPT] 34 1281 freebsd-boot (64k) 162 13331652 freebsd-ufs (651M) Zeroed the stick again, from FreeBSD, and wrote the image from FreeBSD. At this point, I have an idea if it fails booting again. I could gpart the stick using the sizes shown in the gpart show da0 above, then write the image. This should force the backup header into the last LBA. Sure enough, booting (before running gpart to force backup header into the last LBA) failed. Then I found the recover option in gpart, so ran sudo gpart recover da0 and the gptboot error message is gone, however, it auto reboots in about 5 secs from the time the spinning characters start ( \ -- | -- /). Guessing this reboot is unrelated to the gpt problem, but just in case, there something else I'm missing? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... Fixing some ancient PRs would be nice also. (fixed, not just closed) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
question for GPGPU users (was: PHORONIX: OpenCL, ...)
Question for GPGPU users: How important are denormalized floats to GPGPU? (when the number is so small that it can't be normalized with the smallest possible exponent) The graphics people don't care, just round it. Do the GPGPU people care? (This is for the Open Graphics Project, which is designing a GPU that will be documented, and thus usable.) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Problems booting 9.0-BETA1 memstick
On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Jason Campbell wrote: Downloaded FreeBSD-9.0-BETA1-amd64-memstick.img and verified the image with md5sum. I wrote the image (from Linux): dd if=FreeBSD.img of=/dev/sde bs=512 Rebooted and get gptboot: Invalid backup GPT header Same here, although it ran normally. The error might just be from putting the image on a memory stick that is larger than needed. The image has the backup GPT at the 1G mark, but gptboot is looking for it in the last 34 blocks of the device. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
30.08.2011 12:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. I don't think all other OS'es will bring new set of features only when FreeBSD is released. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... I totally disagree. Sites like Wikipedia or StackOverflow serve they own means. When it comes to the point of selecting os you need to show exec one page or even give him one document and searching different bits of information on different sites wouldn't be pretty. Besides it's much better to have control over this page to make sure it's fresh and current. -- Sphinx of black quartz judge my vow. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: PHORONIX: OpenCL, GLSL Back-End For LLVM May Soon Open Up
On 8/30/11, K. Macy km...@freebsd.org wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni giffu...@tutopia.com wrote: FWIW; Christopher Bergström and Pathscale delivered the EKOPath Compiler Suite, but no one followed up: (From the WantedPorts Wiki) https://github.com/pathscale/path64-suite No one has contributed a port yet (a compiler port requires a lot of care), but the compiler is being used by quite a few people, so I doubt that Pathscale has been discouraged by the response. There has been very low interest in the FreeBSD port, and unfortunately this is a bad signal that we give to companies that want to contribute :(. The problem I have with that is that they only support the high-end computing variant of the card which I doubt any of us has. Without the documentation to extend the work to ordinary cards, e.g. my GTX460, it isn't that useful. Yes, but native, high-quality code supporting some of the best hardware would probably attract more interest in our OS as an HPC platform, and Pathscale may be in a position to supply us, if not with support for a wider range of hardware, at least with information and advice on how to provide it -- perhaps with your missing documents. So if you are interested, I'd urge you to get in touch with Bergström. This seems like the kind of project that would be worthy of an initial investment from the FreeBSD Foundation and other interested parties. b. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
30.08.2011 12:23, Sergey Kandaurov wrote: [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html The pages serve different purposes. There's no point in elaborating about feature X if feature X support doesn't differ from other OS implementation. And we should focus on major differences, not just any other feature. Despite we are a company of enthusiasts most enthusiasts once in a lifetime come to the problem of explaining why this OS is better than other or why we shouldn't count on FreeBSD yet. -- Sphinx of black quartz judge my vow. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I can help, I just changed my job and get more spare time. Currently I can help write doc and test. There is much documentation about DTrace ( thanks Sun), but none of these describes the technical details of FreeBSD DTrace implementation, so I think we can start with this. 1 write doc about what we have done. The kernel DTrace is quite stable, but compared to Solaris, what else do we miss, what Solaris has but we do not, whether we implement all the builtin var and function, if not, do we have other alternative?. I come across problems with DTrace, but I don't know whether it is a bug or has not been supported 2 write more examples about how to debug kernel with DTrace on FreeBSD, I think these example can let others know what we can do with DTrace. BTW, I am a Chinese and live in Chengdu, China, I can't have access to dtrace.what-creek.com because of GFW, so maybe I miss something. I started to use FreeBSD about 2.5 year ago, and learn FreeBSD kernel recently because of DTrace. I like it and I hope I can do something more 2011/8/31 Andriy Gapon a...@freebsd.org on 30/08/2011 18:39 Andriy Gapon said the following: 4. There is a missing developer/maintainer for DTrace on FreeBSD. I probably should clarify this point: it doesn't have to be *the* maintainer, a collective maintainer is also perfect. Thus, contributions are very welcome. Nevertheless the kernel DTrace is quite usable and useful for kernel debugging. -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Hi, http://dtrace.what-creek.com no longer exists, because sadly, the author of that web page (John Birrell) is no longer with us: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2009-November/001284.html There are some other documentation pages available for DTrace on FreeBSD: http://wiki.freebsd.org/DTrace http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/dtrace.html If you have ideas for how to enhance this documentation, you should submit your ideas. The freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list is a good place to start. -- Craig Rodrigues rodr...@crodrigues.org On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Paul Ambrose ambrose...@gmail.com wrote: BTW, I am a Chinese and live in Chengdu, China, I can't have access to dtrace.what-creek.com because of GFW, so maybe I miss something. I started to use FreeBSD about 2.5 year ago, and learn FreeBSD kernel recently because of DTrace. I like it and I hope I can do something more ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 31 August 2011 13:28, Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org wrote: So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? My 2c: * remove the page for now; * someone finds someone with proven marketing skills; * enlist their help in marketing, PR, etc, and update the website with relevant details; * the rest of us developers/users should go back to doing what we're good at :) Adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
