Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Daniel Eischen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Can you add a no -pthread symbol to it? Can you give it a rest? You made a bad call, people are giving you grief for it. That is not a bikeshed. Warner ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, M. Warner Losh wrote: In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Daniel Eischen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Can you add a no -pthread symbol to it? Can you give it a rest? You made a bad call, people are giving you grief for it. That is not a bikeshed. It's just a joke at my own expense. Sorry to imply otherwise. -- Dan Eischen ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Daniel Eischen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : It's just a joke at my own expense. Sorry to imply otherwise. Yea. My snapping at you was out of line. I'm just a little frustrated and let it get the better of me. Please forgive me. Warner ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 1:05 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: I don't want to get into the clothing business, so if you want one, you'll probably have to make it yourself. I can ask the company which produced them if they will be willing to ship abroad, but I doubt they are set up for that sort of thing. Per request, I have updated my version of the FreeBSD No Bikeshed t-shirt at http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=cmvp.6951805. I removed the BSDCon'03 text at the bottom and replaced it with No Bikeshed. The slightly modified graphics I created for this shirt are available at http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/pictures/FreeBSD-No-Bikeshed-R.png and http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/pictures/FreeBSD-No-Bikeshed-L.png, under the same No Bikeshed license under which PHK released the original versions. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: At 1:05 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: I don't want to get into the clothing business, so if you want one, you'll probably have to make it yourself. I can ask the company which produced them if they will be willing to ship abroad, but I doubt they are set up for that sort of thing. Per request, I have updated my version of the FreeBSD No Bikeshed t-shirt at http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=cmvp.6951805. I removed the BSDCon'03 text at the bottom and replaced it with No Bikeshed. The slightly modified graphics I created for this shirt are available at http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/pictures/FreeBSD-No-Bikeshed-R.png and http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/pictures/FreeBSD-No-Bikeshed-L.png, under the same No Bikeshed license under which PHK released the original versions. Can you add a no -pthread symbol to it? -- Dan Eischen ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 1:29 AM -0400 2003/09/21, Daniel Eischen wrote: Can you add a no -pthread symbol to it? I could do up an ash grey t-shirt with slightly modified graphics. What would a no -pthread symbol look like? -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Brad Knowles wrote: At 1:29 AM -0400 2003/09/21, Daniel Eischen wrote: Can you add a no -pthread symbol to it? I could do up an ash grey t-shirt with slightly modified graphics. What would a no -pthread symbol look like? I'd imagine a thread would look like: / / \ \ \ / / / or something like that. I'm sure Terry could draw much better ASCI art. Then you'd want a circle around it with a bar thru it ;-) My question was retorical, BTW. Don't really spend any time drawing one :-) -- Dan Eischen ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
On Friday, 12 September 2003 at 5:10:39 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ibsd.org writes: Did you ever consider that your doing exactly what phk's logo protests? ;) Maybe that is why phk hasn't responded any further, because he's laughing at you! You have to admit that is just a bit ironic. Well, the reason I didn't answer until now was that I was eating some sort of fish (species now forgotten). But let me make it 100% clear: You can use the no bikeshed logo for anything you want, anywhere you want, anytime you want with the following simple exception: YOU MAY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES _EVER_ make it the subject of a bikeshed discussion. The question is, can you restrict use of the topic in this manner? Since you have received no consideration for the topic, in most countries you can't restrict its use. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
I missed BSDcon 03, what's a bikeshed got to do with anything, anyway? (besides bikes). Jay Sern Liew [EMAIL PROTECTED],ieee}.org gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 0xA115A33F ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
Liew Jay Sern wrote: I missed BSDcon 03, what's a bikeshed got to do with anything, anyway? (besides bikes). Let's see if I remember the story correctly: If you were building a nuclear reactor, your board of directors would likely agree with you on just about anything you tried to do, since a nuclear reactor is a complex, dangerous, difficult-to-build thing, that none of them wants to get into the dirty details, and there's enough for everyone to do anyway. If you were building a bikeshed, it's so simple, that having a number of people involved would cause endless arguments over things such as the color, or exact location of the bikeshed, since a bikeshed is simple enough that everyone understands it, and there's not really enough work for many people to be involved. The theory (I guess) being that people like to get involved. In a business atmosphere, the lesson is don't assign too many people to a project, it doesn't speed it up, it slows it down. In a volunteer project, where everyone is free to do what they want, it's too easy for too many people to focus on the easy parts, thus discussing petty details into the ground. Thus building a bikeshed has become a euphamism for discussing relatively unimportant details into the ground. -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
* Liew Jay Sern [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2003-09-13 17:07]: I missed BSDcon 03, what's a bikeshed got to do with anything, anyway? (besides bikes). See the Handbook here: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAINTING Regards -Thorsten -- You can't carve your way to success without cutting remarks. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
Bill Moran wrote: Thus building a bikeshed has become a euphamism for discussing relatively unimportant details into the ground. Just to point out a few examples, whenever someone wants to tweak with the rc scripts, or discuss what sysinstall should or shouldn't do, or even if we should bundle sendmail or not, everyone pipes in and nothing gets done. When someone recently discussed a major restructuring of inet's forwarding and routing methods, a single person piped in (well, besides the ones who cheered, like me :). Now, whether we bundle sendmail or not is essentially irrelevant. Even if you abhor whatever we do, it is a most trivial thing for a sysadmin to replace whatever it is with something else. The forwarding and routing changes, on the other hand, will affect every single system that uses IPv4. It will most assuredly result in a modification of the performances tradeoffs (eg, workstations with a single route vs heavy routers with thousands), it _will_ change the speed with which each packet is sent out of a host, and will even change things like MTU Path Discovery (if I read that right :). And there's *nothing* any sysadmin will be able to do about it, except chose another OS. Now, before I scare everyone, it is my belief that any measurable changes in performance will be positive. :-) But this illustrates quite well the bikeshed thingy. -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steele: Aha! We've finally got you talking jargon too! Stallman: What did he say? Steele: Bob just used canonical in the canonical way. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 5:02 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Yes, absolutely. Okay, it should be down in a few minutes. You misunderstood: Yes, it is absolutely OK for you do print T-shirts, mugs, or anything else you might want to use it on. Sorry about that. Originally I wasn't sure, but on thinking about it some more, I felt more confident that you had meant something else. I guess I over-analyzed your response. I'll put the shirt back up in a few minutes. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
At 5:10 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: You can use the no bikeshed logo for anything you want, anywhere you want, anytime you want with the following simple exception: Okay, the t-shirt is back, although now it's white instead of ash grey. See http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=cmvp.6951805. YOU MAY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES _EVER_ make it the subject of a bikeshed discussion. What about the color of the bikeshed? Can we make that an allowed bikeshed discussion? ;-) -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 5:02 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: You misunderstood: Yes, it is absolutely OK for you do print T-shirts, mugs, or anything else you might want to use it on. Sorry for the confusion. My version is now back at http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=cmvp.6951805. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: You can use the no bikeshed logo for anything you want, anywhere you want, anytime you want with the following simple exception: YOU MAY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES _EVER_ make it the subject of a bikeshed discussion. Spoilsport. -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steele: Aha! We've finally got you talking jargon too! Stallman: What did he say? Steele: Bob just used canonical in the canonical way. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT Re: bikeshed
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 10:43:22AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: At 5:10 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: You can use the no bikeshed logo for anything you want, anywhere you want, anytime you want with the following simple exception: Okay, the t-shirt is back, although now it's white instead of ash grey. See http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/prod.aspx?p=cmvp.6951805. snip Strange ppl here riding on a bike like that... Why not lay down and use a real bike, a recumbent or short a bent? Robert -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what? OpenBSD: He guys you left some holes out there! pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: bikeshed
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 05:10:39AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Well, the reason I didn't answer until now was that I was eating some sort of fish (species now forgotten). Sea bass. ==ml -- Michael Lucas [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Today's chance of throwing it all away to start a goat farm: 41.8% http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Absolute OpenBSD: http://www.AbsoluteOpenBSD.com/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The bikeshed T-shirt
The bikeshed T-shirt which has been referred about was only produced in 5 copies and I hadn't really expected that so many people would ask me about it. I don't want to get into the clothing business, so if you want one, you'll probably have to make it yourself. I can ask the company which produced them if they will be willing to ship abroad, but I doubt they are set up for that sort of thing. The xfig source is here: http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.fig http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.pdf Enjoy... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: The bikeshed T-shirt which has been referred about was only produced in 5 copies and I hadn't really expected that so many people would ask me about it. I don't want to get into the clothing business, so if you want one, you'll probably have to make it yourself. I can ask the company which produced them if they will be willing to ship abroad, but I doubt they are set up for that sort of thing. The xfig source is here: http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.fig http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.pdf Enjoy... Note: before making a t-shirt, be sure to modify the image and select your favorite bikeshed color. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Projects [EMAIL PROTECTED] Network Associates Laboratories ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: The bikeshed T-shirt
Cool! BTW, the real links are: http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.fig http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.pdf ...but I would have used a blue bicycle and a white roof. ;-) John -Original Message- From: Poul-Henning Kamp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 6:05 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The bikeshed T-shirt The bikeshed T-shirt which has been referred about was only produced in 5 copies and I hadn't really expected that so many people would ask me about it. I don't want to get into the clothing business, so if you want one, you'll probably have to make it yourself. I can ask the company which produced them if they will be willing to ship abroad, but I doubt they are set up for that sort of thing. The xfig source is here: http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.fig http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.pdf Enjoy... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 1:05 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: I don't want to get into the clothing business, so if you want one, you'll probably have to make it yourself. I can ask the company which produced them if they will be willing to ship abroad, but I doubt they are set up for that sort of thing. Problem solved. See http://www.cafeshops.com/cmvp.7534915. Note that these are being sold at cost (something any other CafePress member can confirm). The xfig source is here: http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.fig http://phk.frebsd.dk/misc/bsdcon03.pdf The PNG version I created is at http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/pictures/freebsd-bikeshed.png. Enjoy... I have interpreted your post to mean that it's okay for other people to print up t-shirts, based on this image. However, if you prefer that I take this down, just let me know. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brad Knowles writes: I have interpreted your post to mean that it's okay for other people to print up t-shirts, based on this image. However, if you prefer that I take this down, just let me know. Yes, absolutely. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 2:11 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Yes, absolutely. Okay, it should be down in a few minutes. If you are serious about wanting to make the image available to others for use on t-shirts, I would encourage you to set up your own CafePress shop, as one of the easiest ways to quickly take any image you want and put it on a wide variety of different products from t-shirts, hats, aprons, mugs, and a whole host of others. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 2:00 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Brad Knowles wrote: Problem solved. See http://www.cafeshops.com/cmvp.7534915. Note that these are being sold at cost (something any other CafePress member can confirm). Per PHK's request, I am taking this down. The PNG version I created is at http://www.shub-internet.org/brad/pictures/freebsd-bikeshed.png. I will leave my PNG version of the bikeshed graphic in place, unless I get another request from PHK to remove it. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 2:11 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Yes, absolutely. Okay, it should be down in a few minutes. If you are serious about wanting to make the image available to others for use on t-shirts, I would encourage you to set up your own CafePress shop, as one of the easiest ways to quickly take any image you want and put it on a wide variety of different products from t-shirts, hats, aprons, mugs, and a whole host of others. I interpreted his Yes, absolutely to be a grant of permission. I think he was replying to the first sentance, not the second. DS ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
Brad Knowles wrote: At 2:00 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Brad Knowles wrote: Problem solved. See http://www.cafeshops.com/cmvp.7534915. Note that these are being sold at cost (something any other CafePress member can confirm). Per PHK's request, I am taking this down. My interpretation of phk's reply was that you could, you may want to check again. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
Brad Knowles wrote: At 2:11 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Yes, absolutely. Okay, it should be down in a few minutes. If you are serious about wanting to make the image available to others for use on t-shirts, I would encourage you to set up your own CafePress shop, as one of the easiest ways to quickly take any image you want and put it on a wide variety of different products from t-shirts, hats, aprons, mugs, and a whole host of others. Err, Brad... I'm pretty sure PH was answering the first sentence, not the second. :-) Well, maybe you get to buy him a beer if you really like the t-shirt. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steele: Aha! We've finally got you talking jargon too! Stallman: What did he say? Steele: Bob just used canonical in the canonical way. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
David Schwartz wrote: At 2:11 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Yes, absolutely. Okay, it should be down in a few minutes. If you are serious about wanting to make the image available to others for use on t-shirts, I would encourage you to set up your own CafePress shop, as one of the easiest ways to quickly take any image you want and put it on a wide variety of different products from t-shirts, hats, aprons, mugs, and a whole host of others. I interpreted his Yes, absolutely to be a grant of permission. I think he was replying to the first sentance, not the second. Yes. Maybe we should remove Brad's commit bit until he puts the t-shirt up again??? :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steele: Aha! We've finally got you talking jargon too! Stallman: What did he say? Steele: Bob just used canonical in the canonical way. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
At 10:17 PM -0300 2003/09/11, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: Yes. Maybe we should remove Brad's commit bit until he puts the t-shirt up again??? :-) I concede that I may have mis-interpreted PHK's response, but before I consider putting the shirt design back up, I need to get explicit confirmation from him that this is okay. I thought about whether or not this was a mis-interpretation or not, but he's usually pretty careful about trimming the quote to which he is responding. I would have expected him to omit the last sentence of that paragraph if his response was positive, but since he kept it, I concluded that he was against the idea. The images should probably have a copyright statement attached to them, and specify under what kind of license they may be distributed under. I can add that to the PNGs I generated (at PHK's direction), or he can re-generate the source files from which I will work. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
bikeshed
Did you ever consider that your doing exactly what phk's logo protests? ;) Maybe that is why phk hasn't responded any further, because he's laughing at you! You have to admit that is just a bit ironic. -masta At 10:17 PM -0300 2003/09/11, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: Yes. Maybe we should remove Brad's commit bit until he puts the t-shirt up again??? I concede that I may have mis-interpreted PHK's response, but before I consider putting the shirt design back up, I need to get explicit confirmation from him that this is okay. I thought about whether or not this was a mis-interpretation or not, but he's usually pretty careful about trimming the quote to which he is responding. I would have expected him to omit the last sentence of that paragraph if his response was positive, but since he kept it, I concluded that he was against the idea. The images should probably have a copyright statement attached to them, and specify under what kind of license they may be distributed under. I can add that to the PNGs I generated (at PHK's direction), or he can re-generate the source files from which I will work. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++): a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+() DI+() D+(++) G+() e++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The bikeshed T-shirt
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brad Knowles writes: At 2:11 AM +0200 2003/09/12, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Yes, absolutely. Okay, it should be down in a few minutes. You misunderstood: Yes, it is absolutely OK for you do print T-shirts, mugs, or anything else you might want to use it on. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ibsd.org writes: Did you ever consider that your doing exactly what phk's logo protests? ;) Maybe that is why phk hasn't responded any further, because he's laughing at you! You have to admit that is just a bit ironic. Well, the reason I didn't answer until now was that I was eating some sort of fish (species now forgotten). But let me make it 100% clear: You can use the no bikeshed logo for anything you want, anywhere you want, anytime you want with the following simple exception: YOU MAY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES _EVER_ make it the subject of a bikeshed discussion. :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bikeshed
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 04:02:03AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did you ever consider that your doing exactly what phk's logo protests? ;) Maybe that is why phk hasn't responded any further, because he's laughing at you! You have to admit that is just a bit ironic. Actually looks more like tears here at the BSDcon front... ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
So if someone were willing to take over the lot and manage them as Ports, how would anyone feel about this? FreeGrep uses the FreeBSD build style and is easily a Port. I could Port-ify the entire directory in, say, two days. Anyone interested? I've got the port-ifying job 90% done, in the style of ports/net/freebsd-uucp. If you want to maintain it, I'd be delighted! Are you a committer? M On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 09:41 PM, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:27:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. I'm all for moving them to the projects directory in cvs, that seemed like a good solution for sccs. Well, that's only useful if it's actually a project, i.e. if people plan to develop them. Since that hasn't happened for most of the games in /usr/games over the lifetime of FreeBSD it's not likely this is about to change. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Also, if this happened, should fortune be treated differently and moved into src/usr.bin? Or should it become a port? Neither. For the time being, the utilityish things in games stay where they are. This is things like morse(6), pom(6), etc, and it includes everyone's favourite - fortune(6). M Jamie On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 09:58 PM, James Howard wrote: So if someone were willing to take over the lot and manage them as Ports, how would anyone feel about this? FreeGrep uses the FreeBSD build style and is easily a Port. I could Port-ify the entire directory in, say, two days. Anyone interested? Jamie On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 09:41 PM, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:27:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. I'm all for moving them to the projects directory in cvs, that seemed like a good solution for sccs. Well, that's only useful if it's actually a project, i.e. if people plan to develop them. Since that hasn't happened for most of the games in /usr/games over the lifetime of FreeBSD it's not likely this is about to change. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 10:42:46AM -0700, Nate Lawson wrote: On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Jose M. Alcaide wrote: What do you think about moving fortune, primes, factor, grdc, pom, etc. to /usr/bin, and then removing /usr/games? The most clever way to axe one change is to suggest an additional, more controversial and less necessary change, and then insist they be bundled together. Too bad I have seen through your nefarious plan. Rats! ;-) -- ** Jose M. Alcaide // [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** ** Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers -- Leonard Brandwein ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, Mark Murray wrote: So if someone were willing to take over the lot and manage them as Ports, how would anyone feel about this? FreeGrep uses the FreeBSD build style and is easily a Port. I could Port-ify the entire directory in, say, two days. Anyone interested? I've got the port-ifying job 90% done, in the style of ports/net/freebsd-uucp. If you want to maintain it, I'd be delighted! Are you a committer? I could use a new hobby, but I am not a committer. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On (2002/10/10 06:55), James Howard wrote: If you want to maintain it, I'd be delighted! Are you a committer? I could use a new hobby, but I am not a committer. Have you given up on your grep implementation? :-) Quite a few folks were really looking forward to it. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
src/games bikeshed time.
Hi The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. There are some games that are truly toys. Specifically I am referring to wargames(6), rain(6) and worms(6). The last two were written for 9600 baud terminals, and are _WAY_ to fast for current consoles, xterms, SSH sessions and the like. The fact that we have had no fixes for this should tell you how important they are to the future of BSD. Some of the games have useful information/utility content. Here I talk of things like pom(6), morse(6), primes(6) and the like. I have no intention of removing these. As fortune(6) has a strong maintainer and follower base, removing that would be premature. What remains? All the games that dm(6) oversees. Things like adventure(6), trek(6), battlestar(6) and so on. These are good candidates for ports IMO. Folks may want to play them, but there is no point in wasting time and space on them _by_default_. In some cases, better upgrades are already available in ports (hack -- nethack). I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. Let the bikeshed begin. Please try to keep some sense of focus. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Hi all, I agree keeping these traditional toys in the base system won't help in a better OS (instead it makes it a bit bigger and older), agreed that they are some sort of 'folklore' putting them in a port makes a good solution. mzl! Rob Evers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technological progress has merely provided us with more efficient means for going backwards. -- Aldous Huxley Mark Murray wrote Hi The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. There are some games that are truly toys. Specifically I am referring to wargames(6), rain(6) and worms(6). The last two were written for 9600 baud terminals, and are _WAY_ to fast for current consoles, xterms, SSH sessions and the like. The fact that we have had no fixes for this should tell you how important they are to the future of BSD. Some of the games have useful information/utility content. Here I talk of things like pom(6), morse(6), primes(6) and the like. I have no intention of removing these. As fortune(6) has a strong maintainer and follower base, removing that would be premature. What remains? All the games that dm(6) oversees. Things like adventure(6), trek(6), battlestar(6) and so on. These are good candidates for ports IMO. Folks may want to play them, but there is no point in wasting time and space on them _by_default_. In some cases, better upgrades are already available in ports (hack -- nethack). I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. Let the bikeshed begin. Please try to keep some sense of focus. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:29:08AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: What remains? All the games that dm(6) oversees. Things like adventure(6), trek(6), battlestar(6) and so on. These are good candidates for ports IMO. Folks may want to play them, but there is no point in wasting time and space on them _by_default_. In some cases, better upgrades are already available in ports (hack -- nethack). I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. I'd like to see these removed only if nobody is willing to maintain them. Check lines 70-75 of src/games/larn/main.c for an example of how out of touch they are with what's considered to be good practice (5 buffer overflows in 6 lines of code). Merging in NetBSD and/or OpenBSD's changes would be a good place to start. I think rogue, hack, primes, fortune and worm are worth keeping, but I don't have the time or patience to maintain them. Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
There's an open PR about factor(6) not working on 64bit arches; I'm preparing to import NetBSD's version which uses the OpenSSL bignum library. There are associated stylistic improvements to primes(6) -- they share a table of primes up to about 2^16. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dotat.at/ EAST SOLE: CYCLONIC 4 OR 5. RAIN OR SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
I'd like to see these removed only if nobody is willing to maintain them. Check lines 70-75 of src/games/larn/main.c for an example of how out of touch they are with what's considered to be good practice (5 buffer overflows in 6 lines of code). Merging in NetBSD and/or OpenBSD's changes would be a good place to start. I think rogue, hack, primes, fortune and worm are worth keeping, but I don't have the time or patience to maintain them. You may have a partial point there. But I'll submit that it is rather a waste of time to maintain these, as their very presence here is questionable. While *NIX is still a good/useful OS, games technology has far outstripped these games, and the options available in ports are much better than our base collection. Asking OS developers to waste development time on this is (IMVHO) a waste of valuable developer-hours. I'm guessing that the base games were pretty state-of-the-art for open source in their day. This is no longer true. I believe the code should be honourably retired before it is a complete archaeological relic. A lot of it is pretty close to museum-ready anyway. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On 9 Oct, Tim Robbins wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:29:08AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: What remains? All the games that dm(6) oversees. Things like adventure(6), trek(6), battlestar(6) and so on. These are good candidates for ports IMO. Folks may want to play them, but there is no point in wasting time and space on them _by_default_. In some cases, better upgrades are already available in ports (hack -- nethack). I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. I'd like to see these removed only if nobody is willing to maintain them. Check lines 70-75 of src/games/larn/main.c for an example of how out of touch they are with what's considered to be good practice (5 buffer overflows in 6 lines of code). Merging in NetBSD and/or OpenBSD's changes would be a good place to start. I think rogue, hack, primes, fortune and worm are worth keeping, but I don't have the time or patience to maintain them. I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... -- Stephen J. Roznowski([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
There's an open PR about factor(6) not working on 64bit arches; I'm preparing to import NetBSD's version which uses the OpenSSL bignum library. There are associated stylistic improvements to primes(6) -- they share a table of primes up to about 2^16. Primes(6) is safe. This program has actual use, and more so if you do the above. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) How would it be for you if these patches became part of the games in the ports collection? (Somewhat like ports/net/freebsd-uucp?) M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On 9 Oct, Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) But some are still fun to play... :-) How would it be for you if these patches became part of the games in the ports collection? (Somewhat like ports/net/freebsd-uucp?) This really doesn't matter to me (ports vice base). I was reacting to the rot of the code comments. I also don't have a (major) problem that this patch was never committed -- there are other more important things for the committers to work on. :-) I would hope that if these are moved to ports, then (at least) these patches would be applied when the tarballs are created Thanks, -- Stephen J. Roznowski([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
This really doesn't matter to me (ports vice base). I was reacting to the rot of the code comments. I also don't have a (major) problem that this patch was never committed -- there are other more important things for the committers to work on. :-) Rot applies more to design, rather than implementation. These games are _old_. They may be classics, and they may be fun, but there are much more modern games in ports, that I dare say folks play much more often. :-) I would hope that if these are moved to ports, then (at least) these patches would be applied when the tarballs are created I have no problems with this. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On 9 Oct, Mark Murray wrote: This really doesn't matter to me (ports vice base). I was reacting to the rot of the code comments. I also don't have a (major) problem that this patch was never committed -- there are other more important things for the committers to work on. :-) Rot applies more to design, rather than implementation. These games are _old_. They may be classics, and they may be fun, but there are much more modern games in ports, that I dare say folks play much more often. :-) I would hope that if these are moved to ports, then (at least) these patches would be applied when the tarballs are created I have no problems with this. I'll also note (for completeness) that NetBSD just released a security advisory about rogue: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/security/advisories/NetBSD-SA2002-021.txt.asc I briefly looked at this and the FreeBSD code appears to be the same. Of course, I'm not sure what getting a shell with a GID of games really gets you My point here, I guess, is that moving these games to ports probably lets us enhance the security of the base system Thanks, -- Stephen J. Roznowski([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:29:08AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. I think this is a fine idea. However, patch please so we know exactly what we are talking about. Some of the games are used in 'make world'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 02:16:09PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) How would it be for you if these patches became part of the games in the ports collection? (Somewhat like ports/net/freebsd-uucp?) I would recomend calling the port 44bsd-games and using the NetBSD repository as the distfile. NetBSD has even fixed bugs in wargames(6). To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 09:47:12AM -0400, Stephen J. Roznowski wrote: On 9 Oct, Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) But some are still fun to play... :-) We aren't taking them away from you: $ su # pkg_add -r 44bsd-games # exit $ wargames Would you like to play a game? To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On 9 Oct, David O'Brien wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 09:47:12AM -0400, Stephen J. Roznowski wrote: On 9 Oct, Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) But some are still fun to play... :-) We aren't taking them away from you: $ su # pkg_add -r 44bsd-games # exit $ wargames Would you like to play a game? I'll assume that dm would just be deleted as part of moving this to ports? Or would the games portion of ports be reconfigued to run under dm? Thanks, -SR To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 02:16:09PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) How would it be for you if these patches became part of the games in the ports collection? (Somewhat like ports/net/freebsd-uucp?) I would recomend calling the port 44bsd-games and using the NetBSD repository as the distfile. NetBSD has even fixed bugs in wargames(6). Why wouldn't these be broken apart? Perhaps a meta-port? -- Stephen J. Roznowski([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
I'll assume that dm would just be deleted as part of moving this to ports? Or would the games portion of ports be reconfigued to run under dm? I am planning on not using dm(6), yes. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
I would recomend calling the port 44bsd-games and using the NetBSD repository as the distfile. NetBSD has even fixed bugs in wargames(6). Why wouldn't these be broken apart? Perhaps a meta-port? If you want to do that, go ahead. My plan is to move some _FreeBSD_ games into a port and remove them from base. If folks want to break apart the port or create meta-ports or create NetBSD-games-ports, they may go right ahead! M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:29:08AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote:
I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base
distribution.
I think this is a fine idea. However, patch please so we know exactly
what we are talking about. Some of the games are used in 'make world'.
Requested diffs below. Not included is a sweep for NOGAMES. Also not
included is a cleanup of mtree.
Here is what happens to src/games/Makefile*:
Index: Makefile
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/games/Makefile,v
retrieving revision 1.19
diff -u -d -r1.19 Makefile
--- Makefile9 Oct 2002 01:46:36 - 1.19
+++ Makefile9 Oct 2002 10:01:21 -
@@ -1,44 +1,17 @@
# @(#)Makefile8.2 (Berkeley) 3/31/94
# $FreeBSD: src/games/Makefile,v 1.19 2002/10/09 01:46:36 jmallett Exp $
-SUBDIR= adventure \
- arithmetic \
- atc \
- backgammon \
- battlestar \
+SUBDIR= \
bcd \
- bs \
caesar \
- canfield \
- cribbage \
- dm \
factor \
- fish \
fortune \
grdc \
- hack \
- hangman \
- larn \
- mille \
morse \
number \
- phantasia \
- piano \
- pig \
pom \
ppt \
primes \
- quiz \
- rain \
- random \
- robots \
- rogue \
- sail \
- snake \
- trek \
- wargames \
- worm \
- worms \
- wump
+ random
.include bsd.subdir.mk
Index: Makefile.inc
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/games/Makefile.inc,v
retrieving revision 1.15
diff -u -d -r1.15 Makefile.inc
--- Makefile.inc17 Dec 2001 15:23:56 - 1.15
+++ Makefile.inc9 Oct 2002 15:01:59 -
@@ -3,11 +3,3 @@
BINDIR?= /usr/games
FILESDIR?= ${SHAREDIR}/games
-
-.if defined(HIDEGAME)
-ORIGBINDIR:= ${BINDIR}
-BINDIR:= ${BINDIR}/hide
-ORIGBINGRP:= ${BINGRP}
-BINGRP=games
-BINMODE= 550
-.endif
src/Makefile*:
Index: Makefile.inc1
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/Makefile.inc1,v
retrieving revision 1.304
diff -u -d -r1.304 Makefile.inc1
--- Makefile.inc1 17 Sep 2002 01:48:47 - 1.304
+++ Makefile.inc1 8 Oct 2002 21:40:05 -
@@ -601,10 +601,6 @@
#
# build-tools: Build special purpose build tools
#
-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/games) !defined(NOGAMES)
-_games=games/adventure games/hack games/phantasia
-.endif
-
.if exists(${.CURDIR}/share) !defined(NOSHARE)
_share=share/syscons/scrnmaps
.endif
src/share/doc/usd/Makefile*:
Index: Makefile
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/doc/usd/Makefile,v
retrieving revision 1.14
diff -u -d -r1.14 Makefile
--- Makefile20 May 2002 13:54:45 - 1.14
+++ Makefile9 Oct 2002 07:27:02 -
@@ -7,8 +7,4 @@
SUBDIR=title contents 04.csh 07.mail 10.exref 11.vitut 12.vi 13.viref \
18.msdiffs 19.memacros 20.meref 21.troff 22.trofftut
-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../../../games) !defined(NOGAMES)
-SUBDIR+=30.rogue 31.trek
-.endif
-
.include bsd.subdir.mk
--
o Mark Murray
\_
O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn
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Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:09:58PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote:
Index: Makefile.inc1
===
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/Makefile.inc1,v
retrieving revision 1.304
diff -u -d -r1.304 Makefile.inc1
--- Makefile.inc1 17 Sep 2002 01:48:47 - 1.304
+++ Makefile.inc1 8 Oct 2002 21:40:05 -
@@ -601,10 +601,6 @@
#
# build-tools: Build special purpose build tools
#
-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/games) !defined(NOGAMES)
-_games= games/adventure games/hack games/phantasia
-.endif
I don't follow this. What was special about these games for build-tools;
and why is only this change enough? Was this patch make world tested
(after rm'ing /usr/games)?
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Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:23:20PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote:
--- Makefile.inc1 17 Sep 2002 01:48:47 - 1.304
+++ Makefile.inc1 8 Oct 2002 21:40:05 -
@@ -601,10 +601,6 @@
#
# build-tools: Build special purpose build tools
#
-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/games) !defined(NOGAMES)
-_games= games/adventure games/hack games/phantasia
-.endif
I don't follow this. What was special about these games for build-tools;
and why is only this change enough? Was this patch make world tested
(after rm'ing /usr/games)?
Take the 1' view. This is not commit-ready, and it has not been
fully tested.
Sorry for not being clear. I was asking for a commit-ready patch. We
can only know exactly what is being discussed once that is in hand.
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RE: src/games bikeshed time.
On 09-Oct-2002 Mark Murray wrote: Hi The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Umm, you have _got_ to be kidding me. I can understand it's buggy code that can give l33t games GID privileges! arguments, but _not_ build time arguments. Many of the games have one source file. Including header files there is a whopping 3142k of C sources under games/. Spread across 41 games that is an average of 76k per game. /usr/bin/lint has 504k of src. That's 6 games. I think we should axe lint from the tree because the sheer TRAUMA from watching my machines LABOR through compiling all of lint(1) during that time that I happen to blink is giving me massive headaches. In fact, I'll have my lawyers be sure and mail you the medical bills. I'm sure this is going to involve lots of therapy. Realistically. On my laptop with X running, mail client running, me typing this message, etc. Doing a fresh build of all of games (including obj, depend, and all) took a whopping 1 minute and 49.70 seconds. Wow, that's such a major bit of time. If I had gotten up to get a soda from the soda machine it would have finished before I had gotten back. The horror! World builds on my laptop usually take about 1.5 hours, or 90 minutes. Let's round the games time up to 2 minutes for easy math. That means that src/games takes up a whopping 2.2% of the world time. And this is on PIII-700 with the slower-than-molasses-in-january gcc 3.2.1 with -march=pentium3 (all the extra optimizations make it slower). Moving over to my test box here at work we have a P4 2.4ghz that takes about, oh, 19.5 minutes to build all of world (4.x). It's a bit fudgy, but let's just assume the 2.2% factor. That comes out to about 26 seconds. I think in the time this thread has taken in the form of reading and writing messages, games could have been built at least 100 times. Find a real argument. Build time is not a real argument. wargames(6) was pretty stupid, but I don't see a reason to remove the rest of the games. There is a NOGAMES option for those of you who really don't want them to inflate (*cough*) your build times. As fortune(6) has a strong maintainer and follower base, removing that would be premature. s/premature/a request for people to take out a contract on me/ If you can find a real argument for removing the games that makes the change necessary, then so be it. However, build time is not such an argument (esp. with NOGAMES) and we don't need to make change just for the sake of change. This is a personal preference just like your ttys change was. -- John Baldwin [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ Power Users Use the Power to Serve! - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 03:56:11PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: If you want to do that, go ahead. My plan is to move some _FreeBSD_ games into a port and remove them from base. What do you think about moving fortune, primes, factor, grdc, pom, etc. to /usr/bin, and then removing /usr/games? JMA -- ** Jose M. Alcaide // [EMAIL PROTECTED] // [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** ** Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers -- Leonard Brandwein ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 03:56:11PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: If you want to do that, go ahead. My plan is to move some _FreeBSD_ games into a port and remove them from base. What do you think about moving fortune, primes, factor, grdc, pom, etc. to /usr/bin, and then removing /usr/games? Maybe later. One thing at a time. :-) M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Below is my proposed patch to primes(6) and factor(6) which I plan
to commit in one go since the changes are somewhat inter-dependent.
Feedback is welcomed. I'm in the process of fixing the manual.
Merge changes from NetBSD and perform some cleaning up.
primes:
const-correctness and removal of wacky casting (from NetBSD);
move declarations of external tables into primes.h instead
of repeating them in primes.c and factor.c. Still limited to
ULONG_MAX though.
factor:
style fixes (#include ordering, ANSI functions, const-correctness,
staticisation -- all but the latter from NetBSD); remove bogus comment;
fix usage() exit value; and the biggie: if OpenSSL is available,
use bignums using clever code from NetBSD. I have cleaned the latter
up somewhat so that it supports FreeBSD's -h feature and doesn't
introduce regressions for N = 2^31 in the non-OpenSSL case.
Tony.
--
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PORTLAND: EAST OR SOUTHEAST BACKING NORTHEAST 5 OR 6, OCCASIONALLY 7.
OCCASIONAL RAIN. GOOD.
--- factor/Makefile 26 Mar 2001 14:20:55 - 1.4
+++ factor/Makefile 8 Oct 2002 19:31:03 -
@@ -4,6 +4,13 @@
PROG= factor
SRCS= factor.c pr_tbl.c
CFLAGS+=-I${.CURDIR}/../primes
+
+.if !defined(NO_OPENSSL)
+CFLAGS+=-DHAVE_OPENSSL
+LDADD+=-lcrypto
+DPADD+=${LIBCRYPTO}
+.endif
+
MAN= factor.6
MLINKS+=factor.6 primes.6
.PATH: ${.CURDIR}/../primes
--- factor/factor.c 18 Feb 2002 05:15:15 - 1.11
+++ factor/factor.c 9 Oct 2002 15:28:21 -
@@ -43,6 +43,7 @@
#ifndef lint
#if 0
static char sccsid[] = @(#)factor.c 8.4 (Berkeley) 5/4/95;
+__RCSID($NetBSD: factor.c,v 1.13 2002/06/18 23:07:36 simonb Exp $);
#endif
static const char rcsid[] =
$FreeBSD: src/games/factor/factor.c,v 1.11 2002/02/18 05:15:15 imp Exp $;
@@ -67,8 +68,8 @@
* If no args are given, the list of numbers are read from stdin.
*/
-#include err.h
#include ctype.h
+#include err.h
#include errno.h
#include limits.h
#include stdio.h
@@ -77,28 +78,53 @@
#include primes.h
-/*
- * prime[i] is the (i-1)th prime.
- *
- * We are able to sieve 2^32-1 because this byte table yields all primes
- * up to 65537 and 65537^2 2^32-1.
- */
-extern ubig prime[];
-extern ubig *pr_limit; /* largest prime in the prime array */
+#ifdef HAVE_OPENSSL
+
+#include openssl/bn.h
+
+#definePRIME_CHECKS5
+
+static voidpollard_pminus1(BIGNUM *); /* print factors for big numbers */
+
+#else
+
+typedef ubig BIGNUM;
+typedef u_long BN_ULONG;
+
+#define BN_CTX int
+#define BN_CTX_new() NULL
+#define BN_new() ((BIGNUM *)calloc(sizeof(BIGNUM), 1))
+#define BN_is_zero(v) (*(v) == 0)
+#define BN_is_one(v) (*(v) == 1)
+#define BN_mod_word(a, b) (*(a) % (b))
+
+static int BN_dec2bn(BIGNUM **a, const char *str);
+static int BN_hex2bn(BIGNUM **a, const char *str);
+static BN_ULONG BN_div_word(BIGNUM *, BN_ULONG);
+static voidBN_print_fp(FILE *, const BIGNUM *);
+
+#endif
+
+static voidBN_print_dec_fp(FILE *, const BIGNUM *);
-inthflag;
+static voidpr_fact(BIGNUM *); /* print factors of a value */
+static voidpr_print(BIGNUM *); /* print a prime */
+static voidusage(void);
-void pr_fact(ubig); /* print factors of a value */
-void usage(void);
+static BN_CTX *ctx; /* just use a global context */
+static int hflag;
int
-main(argc, argv)
- int argc;
- char *argv[];
+main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
- ubig val;
+ BIGNUM *val;
int ch;
- char *p, buf[100]; /* max number of digits. */
+ char *p, buf[LINE_MAX]; /* max number of digits. */
+
+ ctx = BN_CTX_new();
+ val = BN_new();
+ if (val == NULL)
+ errx(1, can't initialise bignum);
while ((ch = getopt(argc, argv, h)) != -1)
switch (ch) {
@@ -125,12 +151,9 @@
continue;
if (*p == '-')
errx(1, negative numbers aren't permitted.);
- errno = 0;
- val = strtoul(buf, p, 0);
- if (errno)
- err(1, %s, buf);
- if (*p != '\n')
- errx(1, %s: illegal numeric format., buf);
+ if (BN_dec2bn(val, buf) == 0
+ BN_hex2bn(val, buf) == 0)
+ errx(1, %s: illegal numeric format., argv[0]);
pr_fact(val);
}
/* Factor the arguments. */
@@ -138,11 +161,8 @@
for (; *argv != NULL; ++argv) {
if (argv[0][0] == '-')
errx(1, negative numbers aren't permitted.);
- errno = 0;
- val = strtoul(argv[0], p, 0);
-
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 05:00:21PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: Below is my proposed patch to primes(6) and factor(6) which I plan to commit in one go since the changes are somewhat inter-dependent. Feedback is welcomed. I'm in the process of fixing the manual. Merge changes from NetBSD and perform some cleaning up. primes: const-correctness and removal of wacky casting (from NetBSD); ... factor: style fixes (#include ordering, ANSI functions, const-correctness, staticisation Please make these seperate commits from the other things. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 08:59:42PM +1000, Tim Robbins wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 11:29:08AM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: What remains? All the games that dm(6) oversees. Things like adventure(6), trek(6), battlestar(6) and so on. These are good candidates for ports IMO. Folks may want to play them, but there is no point in wasting time and space on them _by_default_. In some cases, better upgrades are already available in ports (hack -- nethack). I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. I'd like to see these removed only if nobody is willing to maintain them. I think that's an excellent point. These programs should NOT stay in the base system if there is no-one to maintain them (I'm not ruling out moving them to ports on other grounds). Kris msg44385/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 05:00:21PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote:
+.if !defined(NO_OPENSSL)
+CFLAGS+=-DHAVE_OPENSSL
+LDADD+= -lcrypto
+DPADD+= ${LIBCRYPTO}
+.endif
You also need to check that the crypto sources are installed.
Kris
msg44386/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 10:08:24AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 05:00:21PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote:
+.if !defined(NO_OPENSSL)
+CFLAGS+=-DHAVE_OPENSSL
+LDADD+=-lcrypto
+DPADD+=${LIBCRYPTO}
+.endif
You also need to check that the crypto sources are installed.
Would this be correct (based on stuff in src/etc)?
.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../../crypto) !defined(NO_OPENSSL)
Tony.
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Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Jose M. Alcaide wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 03:56:11PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: If you want to do that, go ahead. My plan is to move some _FreeBSD_ games into a port and remove them from base. What do you think about moving fortune, primes, factor, grdc, pom, etc. to /usr/bin, and then removing /usr/games? JMA The most clever way to axe one change is to suggest an additional, more controversial and less necessary change, and then insist they be bundled together. Too bad I have seen through your nefarious plan. -Nate ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
So, Mark, does all of this extracurricular activity mean that 4.7-RELEASE is done? Or are we still in freeze? -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark Murray wrote: As fortune(6) has a strong maintainer and follower base, removing that would be premature. What remains? All the games that dm(6) oversees. Things like adventure(6), trek(6), battlestar(6) and so on. These are good candidates for ports IMO. Folks may want to play them, but there is no point in wasting time and space on them _by_default_. In some cases, better upgrades are already available in ports (hack -- nethack). I would like to make a port out of these and remove them from the base distribution. Let the bikeshed begin. Please try to keep some sense of focus. As a general comment: They do not have a strong maintainer and follower base, so they should be removed to ports, where they will continue to exist because they have such a strong maintainer and follower base that they will have their own FTP site from which the source will be maintained by third parties, such that the ports will remain viable. 8-) 8-). It's funny, but since the code would be in the attic anyway, only unmaintained, it would still be there forever, so I guess we are only talking about getting the make world benchmark times down. If you want to axe them, then say it; mature open source software is generally unmaintained, so moving them to ports equals axeing them, unless the move includes providing FTP archive space for the source code. On tradition: I actually think the main reason for maintaining them is nostalgia; most of us who learned how to program on shared computing resources remember the games as one of the things that sparked our initial interest in the computers. People who learned to program in this environment, in college computer labs, at 3 AM, with 10 other people, learned different lessons than the people who learned to program, all alone, in the dark, on their own PC, in their parent's basement. Us old guys would claim we learned better lessons: like how to play nice with others. It's easy to be nostalgic for those days, and to want to keep the trappings of them around. That said... rain is a neat display hack. It's at least as good as the ASCII art VGA library. I probably would not miss anything else, or anything that wasn't multiplayer, very much, if at all... it looks like an axeing may be in order. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) So's UNIX. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
David O'Brien wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 02:16:09PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: How would it be for you if these patches became part of the games in the ports collection? (Somewhat like ports/net/freebsd-uucp?) I would recomend calling the port 44bsd-games and using the NetBSD repository as the distfile. NetBSD has even fixed bugs in wargames(6). Now *this* is a good idea. Particularly if we can agree to do the same with /bin/ls and some similar programs... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark Murray wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 03:56:11PM +0100, Mark Murray wrote: If you want to do that, go ahead. My plan is to move some _FreeBSD_ games into a port and remove them from base. What do you think about moving fortune, primes, factor, grdc, pom, etc. to /usr/bin, and then removing /usr/games? Maybe later. One thing at a time. :-) We're building a *bikeshed* here! What good is a *bikeshed*, if yu move all the bikes ino the garage?!? 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-O }|^) -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) So's UNIX. 8-) 8-). Yes. But Unix is _used_. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 06:27:37PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote:
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 10:08:24AM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 05:00:21PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote:
+.if !defined(NO_OPENSSL)
+CFLAGS+=-DHAVE_OPENSSL
+LDADD+= -lcrypto
+DPADD+= ${LIBCRYPTO}
+.endif
You also need to check that the crypto sources are installed.
Would this be correct (based on stuff in src/etc)?
.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../../crypto) !defined(NO_OPENSSL)
I think that's correct. For crypto stuff you also need to check
NOCRYPT, but I don't think factor falls in that category (unless
factor works efficiently with products of large primes ;-)
Kris
msg44401/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
They do not have a strong maintainer and follower base, so they should be removed to ports, where they will continue to exist because they have such a strong maintainer and follower base that they will have their own FTP site from which the source will be maintained by third parties, such that the ports will remain viable. 8-) 8-). Yeah, yeah. :-) In ports, they get some kind of archiving that will safisfy the this many players of these games will need to get them installed. This is not offered by the Attic in nearly as coinvenient a way. It's funny, but since the code would be in the attic anyway, only unmaintained, it would still be there forever, so I guess we are only talking about getting the make world benchmark times down. In private, John Baldwin pointed out that for currnt fast machines, this is about a minute. Its more like clearing up one's desk, or taking out the trash. If you want to axe them, then say it; mature open source software is generally unmaintained, so moving them to ports equals axeing them, unless the move includes providing FTP archive space for the source code. The move _does_ include this. See ports/net/freebsd-uucp. On tradition: I actually think the main reason for maintaining them is nostalgia; most of us who learned how to program on shared computing resources remember the games as one of the things that sparked our initial interest in the computers. People who learned to program in this environment, in college computer labs, at 3 AM, with 10 other people, learned different lessons than the people who learned to program, all alone, in the dark, on their own PC, in their parent's basement. Us old guys would claim we learned better lessons: like how to play nice with others. It's easy to be nostalgic for those days, and to want to keep the trappings of them around. I am nostalgic about old stuff. I have 4 out of 5 of the computers that I built as a kid, and I have plenty of the software that ran on them. This is all carefully packed away in boxes so I can show my grandchildren. It is NOT on any of my current machines (I could make it so easily enough). That said... rain is a neat display hack. It's at least as good as the ASCII art VGA library. I probably would not miss anything else, or anything that wasn't multiplayer, very much, if at all... it looks like an axeing may be in order. Rain looks ridiculous on a VTY. Last time it looked ok was on a 9600 baud terminal. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: On tradition: I actually think the main reason for maintaining them is nostalgia; most of us who learned how to program on shared computing resources remember the games as one of the things that sparked our initial interest in the computers. People who learned to program in this environment, in college computer labs, at 3 AM, with 10 other people, learned different lessons than the people who learned to program, all alone, in the dark, on their own PC, in their parent's basement. Ah, yes. The all night hack was around long before eXtReMe programming. Us old guys would claim we learned better lessons: like how to play nice with others. Or how to: rsh friendbox 'rm -f /tmp/.X11-unix/socket' right in the middle of an xtrek game. That said... rain is a neat display hack. It's at least as good as the ASCII art VGA library. I probably would not miss anything else, or anything that wasn't multiplayer, very much, if at all... it looks like an axeing may be in order. I can't remember, but there was some way to slow down a pseudo terminal -- stty baudrate isn't it. -Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 08:28:13PM +0100, Mark Murray said: That said... rain is a neat display hack. It's at least as good as the ASCII art VGA library. I probably would not miss anything else, or anything that wasn't multiplayer, very much, if at all... it looks like an axeing may be in order. Rain looks ridiculous on a VTY. Last time it looked ok was on a 9600 baud terminal. from the man page: The output of rain is modeled after the VAX/VMS program of the same name. To obtain the proper effect, either the terminal must be set for 9600 baud or the -d option must be used to specify a delay, in milliseconds, between each update. A reasonable delay is 120; the default is 0. it looks fine with the delay. I like the games, although as long as they're easily available and things like fortune and primes stick around (preferably in /usr/games, because otherwise I'll just end up making my own /usr/games directory and symlinking those files from /usr/bin or wherever, because they're in /usr/games on every other system and I'm not really interested in having FreeBSD be pointlessly different if I can help it). chris --- Chris Doherty chris [at] randomcamel.net I think, said Christopher Robin, that we ought to eat all our provisions now, so we won't have so much to carry. -- A. A. Milne --- To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Rain looks ridiculous on a VTY. Last time it looked ok was on a 9600 baud terminal. from the man page: The output of rain is modeled after the VAX/VMS program of the same name. To obtain the proper effect, either the terminal must be set for 9600 baud or the -d option must be used to specify a delay, in milliseconds, between each update. A reasonable delay is 120; the default is 0. You learn something every day :-). it looks fine with the delay. I've seen prettier screensavers. Star_saver for one. But if you like it, it may be worth turning into Yet Another Screensaver. Any volunteers? I like the games, although as long as they're easily available and things like fortune and primes stick around (preferably in /usr/games, because otherwise I'll just end up making my own /usr/games directory and symlinking those files from /usr/bin or wherever, because they're in /usr/games on every other system and I'm not really interested in having FreeBSD be pointlessly different if I can help it). I'm not planning on taking out the utilityish games (plus fortune). BINDIR will stay at /usr/games for the time being. I have no plans to change tat at all, in fact. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark Murray wrote: This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) So's UNIX. 8-) 8-). Yes. But Unix is _used_. I have to admit that I use robots... 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark Murray wrote: That said... rain is a neat display hack. It's at least as good as the ASCII art VGA library. I probably would not miss anything else, or anything that wasn't multiplayer, very much, if at all... it looks like an axeing may be in order. Rain looks ridiculous on a VTY. Last time it looked ok was on a 9600 baud terminal. So the _real_ problem here is that VTY's don't honor baud rate settings via stty, right? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
Mark suggested I might want to frob primes(6) so that it uses uintmax_t,
which I have done (see below) but it uses rather too much C99 goodness
for -STABLE. Are things like strtoumax likely to be MFCed?
Tony.
--
f.a.n.finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dotat.at/
BAILEY: SOUTHEASTERLY 5 TO 7. RAIN. MODERATE OR GOOD.
--- factor/factor.c 9 Oct 2002 19:55:04 - 1.13
+++ factor/factor.c 9 Oct 2002 20:59:22 -
@@ -71,6 +71,7 @@
#include ctype.h
#include err.h
#include errno.h
+#include inttypes.h
#include limits.h
#include stdio.h
#include stdlib.h
@@ -89,7 +90,7 @@
#else
typedef ubig BIGNUM;
-typedef u_long BN_ULONG;
+typedef ubig BN_ULONG;
#define BN_CTX int
#define BN_CTX_new() NULL
@@ -226,7 +227,7 @@
/* Divide factor out until none are left. */
do {
- printf(hflag ? 0x%lx : %lu, *fact);
+ printf(hflag ? 0x%jx : %ju, *fact);
BN_div_word(val, (BN_ULONG)*fact);
} while (BN_mod_word(val, (BN_ULONG)*fact) == 0);
@@ -321,13 +322,13 @@
static void
BN_print_fp(FILE *fp, const BIGNUM *num)
{
- fprintf(fp, %lx, (unsigned long)*num);
+ fprintf(fp, %jx, *num);
}
static void
BN_print_dec_fp(FILE *fp, const BIGNUM *num)
{
- fprintf(fp, %lu, (unsigned long)*num);
+ fprintf(fp, %ju, *num);
}
static int
@@ -336,7 +337,7 @@
char *p;
errno = 0;
- **a = strtoul(str, p, 10);
+ **a = strtoumax(str, p, 10);
return (errno == 0 (*p == '\n' || *p == '\0'));
}
@@ -346,7 +347,7 @@
char *p;
errno = 0;
- **a = strtoul(str, p, 16);
+ **a = strtoumax(str, p, 16);
return (errno == 0 (*p == '\n' || *p == '\0'));
}
--- primes/pattern.c9 Oct 2002 19:38:55 - 1.5
+++ primes/pattern.c9 Oct 2002 20:59:22 -
@@ -54,6 +54,7 @@
* with 1. All non-zero elements are factors of 3, 5, 7, 11 and 13.
*/
+#include inttypes.h
#include stddef.h
#include primes.h
--- primes/pr_tbl.c 9 Oct 2002 19:38:55 - 1.5
+++ primes/pr_tbl.c 9 Oct 2002 20:59:22 -
@@ -53,6 +53,7 @@
* and 65537^2 2^32-1.
*/
+#include inttypes.h
#include stddef.h
#include primes.h
--- primes/primes.c 9 Oct 2002 20:42:40 - 1.21
+++ primes/primes.c 9 Oct 2002 20:59:22 -
@@ -68,6 +68,7 @@
#include ctype.h
#include err.h
#include errno.h
+#include inttypes.h
#include limits.h
#include math.h
#include stdio.h
@@ -118,7 +119,7 @@
stop = BIG;
/*
-* Convert low and high args. Strtoul(3) sets errno to
+* Convert low and high args. Strtou*(3) sets errno to
* ERANGE if the number is too large, but, if there's
* a leading minus sign it returns the negation of the
* result of the conversion, which we'd rather disallow.
@@ -130,14 +131,14 @@
errx(1, negative numbers aren't permitted.);
errno = 0;
- start = strtoul(argv[0], p, 0);
+ start = strtoumax(argv[0], p, 0);
if (errno)
err(1, %s, argv[0]);
if (*p != '\0')
errx(1, %s: illegal numeric format., argv[0]);
errno = 0;
- stop = strtoul(argv[1], p, 0);
+ stop = strtoumax(argv[1], p, 0);
if (errno)
err(1, %s, argv[1]);
if (*p != '\0')
@@ -149,7 +150,7 @@
errx(1, negative numbers aren't permitted.);
errno = 0;
- start = strtoul(argv[0], p, 0);
+ start = strtoumax(argv[0], p, 0);
if (errno)
err(1, %s, argv[0]);
if (*p != '\0')
@@ -190,7 +191,7 @@
if (*p == '-')
errx(1, negative numbers aren't permitted.);
errno = 0;
- val = strtoul(buf, p, 0);
+ val = strtoumax(buf, p, 0);
if (errno)
err(1, %s, buf);
if (*p != '\n')
@@ -245,7 +246,7 @@
for (p = prime[0], factor = prime[0];
factor stop p = pr_limit; factor = *(++p)) {
if (factor = start) {
- printf(hflag ? 0x%lx\n : %lu\n, factor);
+ printf(hflag ? 0x%jx\n : %ju\n, factor);
}
}
/* return early if we are done */
@@ -308,7 +309,7 @@
*/
for (q = table; q tab_lim; ++q, start+=2) {
if (*q) {
- printf(hflag ? 0x%lx\n : %lu\n, start);
+ printf(hflag ? 0x%jx\n : %ju\n, start);
}
}
}
--- primes/primes.h 9 Oct 2002
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. I'm all for moving them to the projects directory in cvs, that seemed like a good solution for sccs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On 9 Oct, Stephen J. Roznowski wrote: On 9 Oct, Mark Murray wrote: I've had a patch in the system (bin/12727) since 1999/07/20 that does just this for the NetBSD patches. I've tried a few times to get it committed. See the patch for details... This is good to have, but it doesn't change the fact that these games are 1970's technology. :-) But some are still fun to play... :-) And rogue is a great way to learn the h j k l keys for vi ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:27:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. I'm all for moving them to the projects directory in cvs, that seemed like a good solution for sccs. Well, that's only useful if it's actually a project, i.e. if people plan to develop them. Since that hasn't happened for most of the games in /usr/games over the lifetime of FreeBSD it's not likely this is about to change. Kris msg44432/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
So if someone were willing to take over the lot and manage them as Ports, how would anyone feel about this? FreeGrep uses the FreeBSD build style and is easily a Port. I could Port-ify the entire directory in, say, two days. Anyone interested? Jamie On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 09:41 PM, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:27:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. I'm all for moving them to the projects directory in cvs, that seemed like a good solution for sccs. Well, that's only useful if it's actually a project, i.e. if people plan to develop them. Since that hasn't happened for most of the games in /usr/games over the lifetime of FreeBSD it's not likely this is about to change. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
Re: src/games bikeshed time.
As a quick follow up, the PR database shows between fifteen and twenty PRs relating to src/games. Also, if this happened, should fortune be treated differently and moved into src/usr.bin? Or should it become a port? Jamie On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 09:58 PM, James Howard wrote: So if someone were willing to take over the lot and manage them as Ports, how would anyone feel about this? FreeGrep uses the FreeBSD build style and is easily a Port. I could Port-ify the entire directory in, say, two days. Anyone interested? Jamie On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 09:41 PM, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Wed, Oct 09, 2002 at 04:27:15PM -0700, Eric Melville wrote: The current flare-up over src/games/wargames reminds me that we are carrying a bunch of Really Old Stuff in usr/games/. Yes folks, its that time of the year. I ask myself, why are we wasting ``make world'' time and install bandwidth on 1970's-era games?. Some folks will answer tradition. This argument holds little water. Programs come and go, and there is no firm reference or agreement as to what is really traditional. This agument can be used to import emacs on the grounds that it is documented in the O'Reilly BSD 4.4 books. I'm all for moving them to the projects directory in cvs, that seemed like a good solution for sccs. Well, that's only useful if it's actually a project, i.e. if people plan to develop them. Since that hasn't happened for most of the games in /usr/games over the lifetime of FreeBSD it's not likely this is about to change. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe freebsd-current in the body of the message
