Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net wrote: Anything gonna be done with this? It has promise but needs some more people involved. The original web page which started this thread was removed from the FreeBSD.org web site: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/cvs-all/2011-September/345334.html For anyone who wants to help update the web site content, the best thing to do is to check out the FreeBSD web site from the www module in CVS (see http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ ) and submit patches to freebsd-...@freebsd.org, or www category via send-pr. -- Craig Rodrigues rodr...@crodrigues.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:36 AM, Aldis Berjoza al...@bsdroot.lv wrote: This is interesting, and could be mentioned in updated page http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=linux_games_bsdnum=1 -- Aldis Berjoza http://www.bsdroot.lv/ Anything gonna be done with this? It has promise but needs some more people involved. -- Chris Brennan A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
This is interesting, and could be mentioned in updated page http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=articleitem=linux_games_bsdnum=1 -- Aldis Berjoza http://www.bsdroot.lv/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 09/01/11 20:26, Matt Thyer wrote: Advocacy by the project members is not going to be taken as seriously as an independent third party comparison. It's clear to me that the project should stick to improving it's own feature set and leave these sorts of things to others. Otherwise we're straying into Fanboy territory which aint pretty. Once we have some world beating (or even close to equalling) performance we can start to request that third parties take us seriously. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What about this. People seem to have problems in a comparison. Seriously and indenepndently done, or not. For interested people like me with a basic education in modern operating systems, I'm, for instance, not familiar with several termini technici. Let us start with the scheduling/scheduler. It is always usual to use the so called O-calculus (Big Landau-Symbol). How about to start with just lining up some commong things those POSIX operating systems do have. Scheduler, their internal logic and some pro and contra. Or Big/huge pages. As far as I can recall BSDs call them different than Linux folks and for those not that deep in OS-internal bits it's hard to figure out what's meant to be said by huge pages. I'm pretty sure, OS X has the same - but the child is called by another name. And even more, for those not familiar with the history and reasoning of the two great UNIX-evolution trees: How init starts up. BSDs/MACH start in two steps, SysV/Linux needs seven or so. And even this: what is the main difference between OS X (MACH), Linux (SysV based) and FreeBSD (4.4BSD based)? I'm pretty sure, all you people reading this list and emails are quite able to digg for the right answeres pretty fast since all of you are involved in the matter, but try to find answeres beyond your knowledge, imagine a perspective of those looking for the holy grale but do not even have any idea how the grale looks like! This could be a good startting point, being neutral and having still the ability to start comparisons if desired. Like me, I do not know much about the filesystems and capabilities of those beyond FreeBSD's, so facilities like journaling etc. could be mentioned and so on. What about such a first step? Sorry, if this already has been realized anyhow on the page and I'm simply to blind to find it (it would otherwise be a index of it could not be find as easy as it is supposed to be). Regards, Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/31/11 20:13, Garrett Cooper wrote: The list would be way too long. I know other Linux-based groups that have integrated drivers from FreeBSD as well for proprietary work. Thanks, -Garrett And claimed then it's GPLv3? Not that anything is (legally) wrong with that. All code re-use is good - if so many OSes hadn't reused BSD sockets, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion now. Cheers Tom ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Sep 1, 2011, at 4:48 AM, Tom Evans tevans...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/31/11 20:13, Garrett Cooper wrote: The list would be way too long. I know other Linux-based groups that have integrated drivers from FreeBSD as well for proprietary work. Thanks, -Garrett And claimed then it's GPLv3? Not that anything is (legally) wrong with that. All code re-use is good - if so many OSes hadn't reused BSD sockets, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion now. Assuming the license had been preserved in the derived work. If not, then that is a problem.. I'm also not sure that relicensing source as GPL if it was originally BSD is such a wise thing to do either, but IANAL. Thanks, -Garrett___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Advocacy by the project members is not going to be taken as seriously as an independent third party comparison. It's clear to me that the project should stick to improving it's own feature set and leave these sorts of things to others. Otherwise we're straying into Fanboy territory which aint pretty. Once we have some world beating (or even close to equalling) performance we can start to request that third parties take us seriously. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
on 31/08/2011 08:46 Adrian Chadd said the following: My 2c: * remove the page for now; * someone finds someone with proven marketing skills; * enlist their help in marketing, PR, etc, and update the website with relevant details; * the rest of us developers/users should go back to doing what we're good at :) Great plan! Also, there used to be (and still is) a www@ mailing list specifically for discussions about FreeBSD web site(s). I think that this thread belongs there. Oh, and I see that the originator of this thread has opened a PR about the page in question - right move! -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/31/11 08:59, Andriy Gapon wrote: on 31/08/2011 08:46 Adrian Chadd said the following: My 2c: * remove the page for now; * someone finds someone with proven marketing skills; * enlist their help in marketing, PR, etc, and update the website with relevant details; * the rest of us developers/users should go back to doing what we're good at :) Great plan! Also, there used to be (and still is) a www@ mailing list specifically for discussions about FreeBSD web site(s). I think that this thread belongs there. I aggree. Oh, and I see that the originator of this thread has opened a PR about the page in question - right move! Thanks, thought that was the only persitant action I could take care of. Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I heard of that news, but I didn't realize that web site was managed by John Birrell. Now, DTrace is not feature-complete and stable, I don't think it is suitable to http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/dtrace.html, but to http://wiki.freebsd.org/DTrace, and people can easily update it 2011/8/31 Craig Rodrigues rodr...@crodrigues.org Hi, http://dtrace.what-creek.com no longer exists, because sadly, the author of that web page (John Birrell) is no longer with us: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2009-November/001284.html There are some other documentation pages available for DTrace on FreeBSD: http://wiki.freebsd.org/DTrace http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/dtrace.html If you have ideas for how to enhance this documentation, you should submit your ideas. The freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list is a good place to start. -- Craig Rodrigues rodr...@crodrigues.org On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Paul Ambrose ambrose...@gmail.com wrote: BTW, I am a Chinese and live in Chengdu, China, I can't have access to dtrace.what-creek.com because of GFW, so maybe I miss something. I started to use FreeBSD about 2.5 year ago, and learn FreeBSD kernel recently because of DTrace. I like it and I hope I can do something more ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Am Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:34:54 -0400 schrieb Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net: the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. Hi Chris and all the others, I want to suggest that you shouldn't compare every single feature about FreeBSD kernel. You should not also try to lie to people about vendor support, because it's not worth mentioning, when you compare it to many Linux distributions. Don't tell people there are games and don't tell them that FreeBSD can replace Microsoft Windows, please. I like to advertise FreeBSD, but I try to do it honestly, because it will send the wrong signals. You should compare what you can *DO* better with FreeBSD. And one thing that comes instantly into my mind is the FreeBSD port collection (for my part). I've tried various Linux distributions for years and there is no such thing as FreeBSD ports in Linux world (portage comes close, but it lacks integrity sometimes). And that's why after using other OSes, I always arrived back on FreeBSD. The effort which is going into ports is amazing and (for me) the most important part of the OS. FreeBSD is one of few systems where you can have configurable up-to-date applications and this is what I need. And this is mostly the reason why I use FreeBSD. I suggest that you look at the applications of FreeBSD in the world. How people use it and why the decided to use it. I heard many people prefer FreeBSD on web servers (yeah, Netcraft also says so). But why? You tell me that FreeBSD has the best IPv6 implementation? So what?! Please tell me what you do with it, when it's so great. Jails are nice, yes! There are surely scenarios where jails are needed above every other concept. Instead of telling people about lightweight virtualisation... tell them what others do with it. Many people are too dumb to understand technical or abstract concepts. They need examples to understand the features. -- Martin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/31/11 14:07, Martin Sugioarto wrote: Am Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:34:54 -0400 schrieb Chris Brennanxa...@xaerolimit.net: the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. Hi Chris and all the others, I want to suggest that you shouldn't compare every single feature about FreeBSD kernel. You should not also try to lie to people about vendor support, because it's not worth mentioning, when you compare it to many Linux distributions. Don't tell people there are games and don't tell them that FreeBSD can replace Microsoft Windows, please. I like to advertise FreeBSD, but I try to do it honestly, because it will send the wrong signals. You should compare what you can *DO* better with FreeBSD. And one thing that comes instantly into my mind is the FreeBSD port collection (for my part). I've tried various Linux distributions for years and there is no such thing as FreeBSD ports in Linux world (portage comes close, but it lacks integrity sometimes). And that's why after using other OSes, I always arrived back on FreeBSD. The effort which is going into ports is amazing and (for me) the most important part of the OS. FreeBSD is one of few systems where you can have configurable up-to-date applications and this is what I need. And this is mostly the reason why I use FreeBSD. Better is relative. People who are supposed to compile or were supposed to compile their software in the past are better with freeBSD. Those people looking for a Windows alternative used to get binaries do not care about configuring. They'd like to have running software, getting it with the ease of a mouse click. I was never able to convince people about the control they have since they won't have to have it! But you made a striking point! With the BSD ports system, a niche has been covered up which may be very important for people like you and me. And this is a certain point were is no better or worse', since it is a complete different philosophy. And I would like to see a mixture of some comparisons, even if they are slightly worse for FreeBSD, but supported by reasonable numbers and those basic paradigms. Thinking is: if an OS is approximately 10% slower in a certain benchmark I favor for future mission-usage of the OS, say file I/O or network, I wouldn't care if I have the uncompensated advantage to control software settings and others. I suggest that you look at the applications of FreeBSD in the world. How people use it and why the decided to use it. I heard many people prefer FreeBSD on web servers (yeah, Netcraft also says so). But why? You tell me that FreeBSD has the best IPv6 implementation? So what?! Please tell me what you do with it, when it's so great. There was a time, I recall it was the end-nineties of the last century, when there were many network-performance benchmarks floating around, comparing FreeBSD's incedible network stack to others. There were many benchmarks, not even one. Since Linux and Windows gained up, it became quiet around FreeBSD. The last field benchmark I saw was presented by Kris Kenneway, as far as I remember and he presented some benchmarks comparing MySQL running on FreeBSD 6/7 and Linux. I'm not completely sure about that. Jails are nice, yes! There are surely scenarios where jails are needed above every other concept. Instead of telling people about lightweight virtualisation... tell them what others do with it. Many people are too dumb to understand technical or abstract concepts. They need examples to understand the features. -- Martin Or they need some hints already written by others like this: http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Health-Check-FreeBSD-The-unknown-giant-920248.html I'm not sure whether this is linked on the project's webpage, I didn't find it when I searched it. Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Wednesday, 31 August 2011 16:15:33 Hartmann, O. wrote: Or they need some hints already written by others like this: http://www.h-online.com/open/features/Health-Check-FreeBSD-The-unknown-gian t-920248.html I'm not sure whether this is linked on the project's webpage, I didn't find it when I searched it. Oliver As I did the commit (at least I think I did...): Yes, it is on our homepage. Even on the main page on FreeBSD.org - section In the media. jkois -- Johann Kois jkois(at)FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Documentation Project FreeBSD German Documentation Project - https://doc.bsdgroup.de signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/31/2011 8:07 AM, Martin Sugioarto wrote: Am Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:34:54 -0400 schrieb Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net: the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. Hi Chris and all the others, I want to suggest that you shouldn't compare every single feature about FreeBSD kernel. You should not also try to lie to people about vendor support, because it's not worth mentioning, when you compare it to many Linux distributions. Don't tell people there are games and don't tell them that FreeBSD can replace Microsoft Windows, please. My argument wasn't designed to compare every little feature of FreeBSD to other OS's of choice, but to show, in an overall comparison where FreeBSD stands, both positive and negative in retrospect to our competition. That can give us a look at the system as it is and see what's broke, not in real time, but in a post-time aspect, as the competition may see it. I *never* advocated we lie to anyone, perhaps you misunderstood me when I was saying we should be *honest* about the comparison. But I am left with two questions now; 1. Why should we not tell them that games are available on FreeBSD? 2. Why should we not advocate *BSD or Linux as an alternative to Windows? OS X? As to Vender support, all I think we should do is a simple list (with links) of who is confirmed as to use FreeBSD. Of course this would direct traffic, so we would need to take care as to make sure that a) FreeBSD could handle the traffic from Vendors directing people to freebsd.org and that b) they can handle the traffic we direct to them. It would look bad for both us and them if one or the other cause one (or both) to disappear due to a traffic overload. (In reality, this might not happen, but better to expect the worst...) I like to advertise FreeBSD, but I try to do it honestly, because it will send the wrong signals. My arguments were for an honest comparison, and I thought I made that *abundantly* clear. I guess I missed something when I proofread my e-mail. You should compare what you can *DO* better with FreeBSD. And one thing that comes instantly into my mind is the FreeBSD port collection (for my part). I've tried various Linux distributions for years and there is no such thing as FreeBSD ports in Linux world (portage comes close, but it lacks integrity sometimes). And that's why after using other OSes, I always arrived back on FreeBSD. The effort which is going into ports is amazing and (for me) the most important part of the OS. FreeBSD is one of few systems where you can have configurable up-to-date applications and this is what I need. And this is mostly the reason why I use FreeBSD. Absolutely, you are correct. FreeBSD Port collection is a diamond in the rough, the gem that gives us light (in a sense at last). Gentoo's portage does come close, and it does this because the concept is based on the FreeBSD Ports collection. I suggest that you look at the applications of FreeBSD in the world. How people use it and why the decided to use it. I heard many people prefer FreeBSD on web servers (yeah, Netcraft also says so). But why? One thing FreeBSD will always have over Linux, OS X and Windows is Age, we all will get older, but FreeBSD will still be the eldest child. With age comes Wisdom? There are all kinds of adages to go here, take your pick, fill in the black, use what ever floats your boat. But you are right, testimonials would be ideal, but they have an inherent flaw in them. They can be easily faked. So how do we get passed this? You tell me that FreeBSD has the best IPv6 implementation? So what?! Please tell me what you do with it, when it's so great. I can't answer this one, I know very little about IPv6 still, but I agree, you do make a valid argument, we should be told what we can do with it in plain speak, not technobable that will confuse the uninitiated, which would be unfair to them. The handbook does try to cover this concept, by usage language that is familiar to a broad spectrum of people. Maybe some of this should be reviewed and updated? Jails are nice, yes! There are surely scenarios where jails are needed above every other concept. Instead of telling people about lightweight virtualisation... tell them what others do with it. Sure, no reason not to. Maybe a FreeBSD sanctioned (and maintained) howto guide for the (above) uninitiated that teaches end-users how to use jails from the start, from an absolutely fresh install of FreeBSD, start with jailing the most obvious services and then move to a loose construct that will allow them to jail other services on their own. Show them how, hold their hand (at first) and then give them the tools to do the work on their own. If they get stuck, they can always fallback to that howto guide where they know
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Martin Sugioarto mar...@sugioarto.com wrote: Am Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:34:54 -0400 schrieb Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net: ... You should compare what you can *DO* better with FreeBSD. And one thing that comes instantly into my mind is the FreeBSD port collection (for my part). I've tried various Linux distributions for years and there is no such thing as FreeBSD ports in Linux world (portage comes close, but it lacks integrity sometimes). Sadly, recent versions of portage actually have exceeded ports in terms of ease of use and non-breakage. I would have agreed with you 3-4 years ago, but the status quo has changed. That being said, even though upgrades work 99% of the time without fault in Gentoo portage, it's still way too complicated of a system for most users to work with on a day to day basis. And that's why after using other OSes, I always arrived back on FreeBSD. The effort which is going into ports is amazing and (for me) the most important part of the OS. FreeBSD is one of few systems where you can have configurable up-to-date applications and this is what I need. And this is mostly the reason why I use FreeBSD. Most people wouldn't necessarily agree because apart from the breadth of packages in ports, the infrastructure needs a serious overhaul to be used by less seasoned Unix folks. I suggest that you look at the applications of FreeBSD in the world. How people use it and why the decided to use it. I heard many people prefer FreeBSD on web servers (yeah, Netcraft also says so). But why? You tell me that FreeBSD has the best IPv6 implementation? So what?! Please tell me what you do with it, when it's so great. Jails are nice, yes! There are surely scenarios where jails are needed above every other concept. Instead of telling people about lightweight virtualisation... tell them what others do with it. Many people are too dumb to understand technical or abstract concepts. I don't think it's that users are dumb -- just uneducated. Many people lack the time or interest to try out new OSes that don't just work (tm) out of the box. They need examples to understand the features. Agreed. Thanks! -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? Yes and yes. I would start out with the FreeBSD highlights first and foremost, then we can move on to compare it (in a positive light) to other contemporary OSes. Thanks! -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... I disagree. Wikipedia isn't a good definitive source of knowledge. StackOverflow from what I've seen is good at answering questions, but not for advocating particular OSes. What we need is: 1. An advocate for FreeBSD. 2. One or more unbiased third parties who can talk about the pros and cons of FreeBSD vs other OSes. If our OS gets really good in some of the areas that have been identified as gaps, then the two groups will effectively converge over time. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/31/2011 1:43 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? Yes and yes. I would start out with the FreeBSD highlights first and foremost, then we can move on to compare it (in a positive light) to other contemporary OSes. It should be noted on the FreeBSD side of the comparison, whom has borrowed concepts from FreeBSD, such as the network stack or Gentoo's Portage system (just to name a few that come to mind.) -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/31/11 19:48, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/31/2011 1:43 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby [1]miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? Yes and yes. I would start out with the FreeBSD highlights first and foremost, then we can move on to compare it (in a positive light) to other contemporary OSes. It should be noted on the FreeBSD side of the comparison, whom has borrowed concepts from FreeBSD, such as the network stack or Gentoo's Portage system (just to name a few that come to mind.) Oh yes ... and maybe those, who incorporated silently BSD stuff like the TCP/IP stack - like M$. References 1. mailto:miham...@rktmb.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net wrote: ... It should be noted on the FreeBSD side of the comparison, whom has borrowed concepts from FreeBSD, such as the network stack or Gentoo's Portage system (just to name a few that come to mind.) It's good for historical references and flame wars when people say BSD sucks, but it doesn't help us get the shiny which we need for new users. Sell people on the architecture and ease of use, and they'll love you for it. Don't overcomplicate things should be our motto. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/31/11 19:48, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/31/2011 1:43 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby [1]miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? Yes and yes. I would start out with the FreeBSD highlights first and foremost, then we can move on to compare it (in a positive light) to other contemporary OSes. It should be noted on the FreeBSD side of the comparison, whom has borrowed concepts from FreeBSD, such as the network stack or Gentoo's Portage system (just to name a few that come to mind.) Oh yes ... and maybe those, who incorporated silently BSD stuff like the TCP/IP stack - like M$. The list would be way too long. I know other Linux-based groups that have integrated drivers from FreeBSD as well for proprietary work. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/31/11 20:13, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/31/11 19:48, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/31/2011 1:43 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby [1]miham...@rktmb.org wrote: On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? Yes and yes. I would start out with the FreeBSD highlights first and foremost, then we can move on to compare it (in a positive light) to other contemporary OSes. It should be noted on the FreeBSD side of the comparison, whom has borrowed concepts from FreeBSD, such as the network stack or Gentoo's Portage system (just to name a few that come to mind.) Oh yes ... and maybe those, who incorporated silently BSD stuff like the TCP/IP stack - like M$. The list would be way too long. I know other Linux-based groups that have integrated drivers from FreeBSD as well for proprietary work. Thanks, -Garrett And claimed then it's GPLv3? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 29/08/2011 20:58, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). From a recent post to -questions: Alas, during a recent kernel build, I used the -j2 command line option in make and watched as the scheduler repeatedly assigned two instances of cc (the most CPU-intensive program) to the same core. I'm not sure this is something we're really better at, unfortunately: I know I've watched Windows really grok multi-socket, multi-core HyperThreaded systems and prefer real cores on the same NUMA node when running a multi-threaded application, whereas it seems FreeBSD struggles sometimes. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 30 August 2011 13:13, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html -- wbr, pluknet ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 11:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... We havn't started updating the old one and now we start thingking about management and scheduling? I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... I agree with you. But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Sorry, my fault, my stupid. One bonus less on FreeBSD :-( On 08/30/11 15:45, Paul Ambrose wrote: I do not believe the current status of DTrace is appropriate for promoting 1. DTrace is an experimental function or Semi-finished products. The kernel dtrace support is ok, but the userland support is far from completion(at least the pid provider has many bugs) 2 the FreeBSD implementation is different from Solaris/Mac OS X. The DTraceToolkit, which has many amazing feature, can not 100% works on FreeBSD, and there is no doc to identify the difference. 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. 2011/8/30 Sergey Kandaurovpluk...@gmail.com On 30 August 2011 13:13, Hartmann, O.ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html -- wbr, pluknet ___ freebsd-performa...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-performance-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-performa...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-performance-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... I agree with you. But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? And by the way, if our community would be that proud and big as it was eleven years ago, I'm pretty sure there would already be a Wiki driven by a third party! So it is a wise advisory to sit there and wait for a third party, whatever this party may look alike? Just my opinion about that. Oliver ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 30/08/2011 15:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. You're wrong :) I write Windows drivers for a living, so I care about that stuff. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 16:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? Sorry, I forgot about that, you're completely right! Most engineers are very keen on their own products and they know each feature by the forename, so to speak. But this delegates us into the complicated situation, that there should exist someone which is deep inside all of the compared operating systems. And I still doubt that we will find such a person, since if this would exist noadays and such a person is motivated to do a comparison, it would have been done and happened already! If a comparison page is driven by the developer themselves and open to be seen by everyone, even the other party or people fund of the other ones, they could sign some requests in the mailing lists. But I guess it would be hard to find a common aggreement. Whenever a benchmark has been started at PHORONIX, so far as I know, and I watch them very carefully, and FreeBSD's bad performance related to threaded I/O come to discussion, which is, in my naive opinion, a very essential part of the OS and its performnce (and compared to Linux FreeBSD performs really bad!), a discussion got loose with the outcome, that many energy has been emitted for excusions, critics on the way the benchmark has been performed and what OS version has been taken into the test blablabla ... and effectively everything is stuck as before. It is like a street scene in Italy or Turkey, someone shouts in the narrow street, something bad happens, the people open their windows, starting shouting crisscross each other, making a lot of noise and then, suddenly, all windows slap close and a devine silnce enters the whole scene and still the bad thing is unsolved (say, ad corps in the street bleeding ...) ... I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I do not believe the current status of DTrace is appropriate for promoting 1. DTrace is an experimental function or Semi-finished products. The kernel dtrace support is ok, but the userland support is far from completion(at least the pid provider has many bugs) 2 the FreeBSD implementation is different from Solaris/Mac OS X. The DTraceToolkit, which has many amazing feature, can not 100% works on FreeBSD, and there is no doc to identify the difference. 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. 2011/8/30 Sergey Kandaurov pluk...@gmail.com On 30 August 2011 13:13, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: On 08/30/11 09:29, Hans Petter Selasky wrote: On Monday 29 August 2011 21:58:29 Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: 27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). And USB. I believe there are significant changes in the USB subsystems which those who are making performance benchmarks completely fail to mention. --HPS ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org What's about DTrace? = Development/System Profiling = * DTrace: Some notes of the Kernel Gurus what this could mean for performance profiling and development = Licensing Model = * Some striking comments on the advantage for companies or interested people of the BSD-like licensing model over the GPLv3 on which Linux is based now and which has serious implications for those who wants to develop and sell software developed on/with GNU stuff. it would be very honest, if we do not only emphasize only the pros. BSD came from the academic environment, that was where I met it the first time and I appreciated the way things were developed and 'sloppyness' was a nogo. So we should keep it up and a serious and honest set of contraru points for all compared OS should be appreciable. Does the VM of FreeBSD still have advantges (measurable) over Linux? [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html -- wbr, pluknet ___ freebsd-performa...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-performance-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/30/2011 10:30 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. As a casual user and a staunch supporter, I would strongly disagree with you here. if a third party wiki (even Wikipedia) contained such a comparison, I would question it's validity moreso then if the project itself were to maintain a release-based comprison of currently supported branches (7.x, 8.x, 9.x*, etc) vs a selected choice of mainstream Linux Distro's, OS X Server and Windows 2003/2008. But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking and may require the work of many dedicated people (new/active marketing team?) It should very much be done by FreeBSD as a project and should be taken seriously as a marketing technique, the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
on 30/08/2011 16:45 Paul Ambrose said the following: I do not believe the current status of DTrace is appropriate for promoting 1. DTrace is an experimental function or Semi-finished products. The kernel dtrace support is ok, but the userland support is far from completion(at least the pid provider has many bugs) 2 the FreeBSD implementation is different from Solaris/Mac OS X. The DTraceToolkit, which has many amazing feature, can not 100% works on FreeBSD, and there is no doc to identify the difference. 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. 4. There is a missing developer/maintainer for DTrace on FreeBSD. Nevertheless the kernel DTrace is quite usable and useful for kernel debugging. -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 06:34 PM, Chris Brennan wrote: But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking Yep, it's not trivial... and right now, I have no idea to make it easier... -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/30/2011 12:21 PM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 06:34 PM, Chris Brennan wrote: But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking Yep, it's not trivial... and right now, I have no idea to make it easier... I do have any idea ... but I don't want to be the one spearheading such a project, I lack the technical skills or the professional expertise to lead this project, but I will certainly contribute if and where possible... -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 30/08/2011 17:43, Chris Brennan wrote: I do have any idea ... but I don't want to be the one spearheading such a project, I lack the technical skills or the professional expertise to lead this project, but I will certainly contribute if and where possible... I could probably contribute too, since I know quite a bit about Windows and FreeBSD, and I'd be keen to learn about Linux (it would give me a reason to read the copy of Essential Linux Device Drivers I bought!). However I don't have a lot of time at the moment so I certainly couldn't lead the project. -- Bruce Cran ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 17:34, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/30/2011 10:30 AM, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 05:21 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: On 08/30/11 12:31, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/30/2011 12:59 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: But I also express my opinion that updating such a document should be done by a third party. I slightly disagree with that. No problem Who else than the developer/core team members know better about what's in and what's not in the FreeBSD box? So, for a features listing, it's OK. I really agree on turning it into a feature list. For a _comparison_, I think it's up to somewhere else: To really compare, it's mandatory to really now the multiple compared items. Who cares about the latest MS Windows internals (deep networking capability, filesystem tricks, kernel scheduler specs,...) in here? I migh be wrong, but IMHO core devs and power users wont spend time to deeply investigate on the other systems. Again, just an opinion. As a casual user and a staunch supporter, I would strongly disagree with you here. if a third party wiki (even Wikipedia) contained such a comparison, I would question it's validity moreso then if the project itself were to maintain a release-based comprison of currently supported branches (7.x, 8.x, 9.x*, etc) vs a selected choice of mainstream Linux Distro's, OS X Server and Windows 2003/2008. But this comparison can't be trivial, it has to be genuine, authentic, (peer reviewed across the board if possible), backed up by fact (links back to other reputable sources). In short, it's a monumental undertaking and may require the work of many dedicated people (new/active marketing team?) It should very much be done by FreeBSD as a project and should be taken seriously as a marketing technique, the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid) choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that is true and honest fact. FreeBSd hasn't the market is may have had in the past and the lack of developer is always brought up when it comes to the lack of features. So you would found a marketing team? Professionals? Who cares for the costs in money and manpower for that? This is why things get drown like a young puppy dog. There are some essential facts the different operating systems differ in. Even the *BSD UNIX systems do have those and it could be a nice thing to gather some aspects together and compare them. It would be hard to make any ground against Linux these days - this is what I gathered in the past two years desperately looking for a support of GPGPU vailability in *BSD. This is only one small aspect, but I guess there are more. On the other hand, I'm not deep inside the system and if there is no source of a half-way trustworthy webpage telling a story about different aspects of development and decently written terms of how FreeBSD is a bit better than others ...what can I propagade to my colleagues and others? Well, everything new and everything unprofessional but true is much better than the old smiley-infested webpage. Think of people starting with an OpenSource OS or starting being courios about the *BSDs. I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! New people do not even know that the FreeBSD was once a backend of many big companies due to its rockstable network stack. Roumors said, that even Microsofts MSN was backed up by FreeBSD. But today, this doesn't count anymore. Operating systems are workhorses, not pieces of art keeping and replenish their value. The art of programming is its clarity cleaness and this is not aproved by the developer himself, this is a attribute which is earned by those who has to administer and develop for such an OS. And I guess compared to Linux, there are big diffrences. Since I have to administer my CUDA/TESLA cluster (since FreeBSD's lack of support for that we needed to switch over), I'm scared about the mess the distributions celebrate. In my opinion, Linux is scripted to death in many aspects and without the distro's management tools, there is no straight passage to the problem's core anymore! That is maybe a foggy sight of things since I'm with BSD systems since my first private DECstation 5000/133 with a good old 4.3 RENO BSD and I havn't already understood the Linux' philosophy. But there must also be a reason why network-responsible administrators favour BSD based firewalls but have to workd with Linux due to the contracts of the companies ... ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 09:45:09PM +0800, Paul Ambrose wrote: 3 There is a missing feature list about DTrace, but no schedule list about when to fix it. We just need someone who wants to spend a lot of time working on it. Without that, there is no point in putting up a schedule. mcl ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
on 30/08/2011 18:39 Andriy Gapon said the following: 4. There is a missing developer/maintainer for DTrace on FreeBSD. I probably should clarify this point: it doesn't have to be *the* maintainer, a collective maintainer is also perfect. Thus, contributions are very welcome. Nevertheless the kernel DTrace is quite usable and useful for kernel debugging. -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/27/11 3:32 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. I think that it also clashes with the positive tone that (I've experienced) in most of the website copy, discussions on this mailing list, and other parts of the FreeBSD project. We have an awesome project, we don't really need to put down everyone else to make ourselves look good. -- Sean Collins Core IT Pro, LLC www.coreitpro.com ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 8/30/2011 2:48 PM, Sean M. Collins wrote: On 8/27/11 3:32 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. I think that it also clashes with the positive tone that (I've experienced) in most of the website copy, discussions on this mailing list, and other parts of the FreeBSD project. We have an awesome project, we don't really need to put down everyone else to make ourselves look good. I wasn't implying a putdown and I don't think Garrett Cooper was either, he was merely pointing out that the technology in use today (Tuesday, August 30th, 2011) varies, radically from when http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html was written way back, sometime in the year 2000. The comparison being called for to be updated, needn't be that type of comparison. If in the end, FreeBSD comes out as truly and honestly better then so be it, it turns out to be the under-appreciated underdog, then so be it too. An argument made (by us, the FreeBSD community) to point out the pros and cons of common OS types would undoubtedly hurt and benefit us as a project, but it would also illustrate why FreeBSD is good for applications A-F[1], Linux is good for A-F[1] (but for different reasons), OS-X is good for applications A-C and Microsoft Windows is good for A-C. This is a volunteer project that takes in some monetary values for certain things, but is largely a non-profit/not-for-profit organization aimed at providing a service. Clearly and objectively defining where we stand against our competition should be a major (but not or if not, take your pick) a priority of the project as a whole. If no one else has done it, then we should. Just because we can (and maybe because we should, just because we can). Oliver Heartmann has made some good points, but I tend to disagree with his philosophy. Such a project as this needn't be centered around a monetary base. This isn't a project to start mass-marketing FreeBSD to the mindless masses, but to provide prospective to the Server OS Communities, not to alienate someone because we think we're better. I also disagree with his idea that 'we should let sleeping dogs lie' and not bother to do any of this. It's something we (as a community-driven project) should have done a long time ago. What I do agree with in his views is that such a project should contain some historical perspective, we should always remember where we came from, it's a fundamental aspect to remember so we know where we are going, but that shouldn't be the only factor, at the very basic, we also need to know where we stand at present, not just in cold, hard, unfeeling numbers. But a project that thrives on diversity, much as the societies we live in. Arguments will rise, tempers will flare, people might leave (and fork, as is their right), but FreeBSD will still be here, no less then it was before (except in a slightly diminished user-base for a while). This said, everyone on these mailing lists has an experience that can be contributed to this project[2]. It does not have to be limited to just the FreeBSD Developers describing why we're superior to any other OS (and it rightly shouldn't be just their opinion). In reality, it should be a hodgepodge of opinion from every walk of life. Every person that has participated in this discussion has had different experiences with Microsoft products, BSD products, Apple products and Linux products. And those opinions and experiences are what's going to count. I think I've run out of steam for the moment ... so I shall stop here. [1] Any X-Y definition is not meant to provide any form of clearly defined values to any one OS but to illustrate hypothetical examples. [2] I repeatedly defined this discussion as project because I couldn't think of a different term to use that would aptly and/or correctly describe this discussion. -- Chris Brennan -- A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/ GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/11 21:59, Chris Brennan wrote: On 8/30/2011 2:48 PM, Sean M. Collins wrote: On 8/27/11 3:32 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. I think that it also clashes with the positive tone that (I've experienced) in most of the website copy, discussions on this mailing list, and other parts of the FreeBSD project. We have an awesome project, we don't really need to put down everyone else to make ourselves look good. I wasn't implying a putdown and I don't think Garrett Cooper was either, he was merely pointing out that the technology in use today (Tuesday, August 30th, 2011) varies, radically from when http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html was written way back, sometime in the year 2000. The comparison being called for to be updated, needn't be that type of comparison. If in the end, FreeBSD comes out as truly and honestly better then so be it, it turns out to be the under-appreciated underdog, then so be it too. An argument made (by us, the FreeBSD community) to point out the pros and cons of common OS types would undoubtedly hurt and benefit us as a project, but it would also illustrate why FreeBSD is good for applications A-F[1], Linux is good for A-F[1] (but for different reasons), OS-X is good for applications A-C and Microsoft Windows is good for A-C. This is a volunteer project that takes in some monetary values for certain things, but is largely a non-profit/not-for-profit organization aimed at providing a service. Clearly and objectively defining where we stand against our competition should be a major (but not or if not, take your pick) a priority of the project as a whole. If no one else has done it, then we should. Just because we can (and maybe because we should, just because we can). Oliver Heartmann has made some good points, but I tend to disagree with his philosophy. Such a project as this needn't be centered around a monetary base. This isn't a project to start mass-marketing FreeBSD to the mindless masses, but to provide prospective to the Server OS Communities, not to alienate someone because we think we're better. I also disagree with his idea that 'we should let sleeping dogs lie' and not bother to do any of this. It's something we (as a community-driven project) should have done a long time ago. Well, there must be a misunderstanding! I never wished FreeBSD be centered around a monetary basis, I'm parsecs away from that! I tend to bring up arguments against commercial focussing. The BSD operating systems earned a great legacy from academic research and even today we all profit from this very academic fundament: focus on exact, clean code. Perfection over the simple dirty just works hacks (I connote Linux with this kind of philosophy and I recall myself an interview between Theo de Raad (OpenBSD) and Linus Torvalds (Linux) in which Torvalds stated that he's not eagerly after perfection and he's accepting some flaws if the overall system works - so or similar). On the contrary without money - no professional developer. And as we see (and suffer), KMS implementation suffers from a professional developer. Most benefits Linux got in the past years came from commercial development. Even ZFS is developed by a former, now oracled commercial company. And this also forces the next question: why has DragonFly BSD got a HAMMER filesystem developed by someone non-profit-developing? My English may be bad and sometimes some misunderstandings arise from that. I didn't mean let sleeping dogs lie. At the moment it is even for someone who was for 15 years with FreeBSD hard to accept, that there is no reason to start with FreeBSD as a server platform, if the workstations have also to be driven by a non-Windows OS and the support for fast graphics is really essential! Guys, I have a bunch of AMD/ATi HD48XX graphics cards running with FreeBSD and I do not dare to logoff the X11 system since then the whole system freezes and need to be reset. This situation lasts now for two years and i wrote a lot of PRs. In the first place, this isn't a OS fault, is X11. But on the second view the situation seems more complicated and interwined. Just the development on X11 has made rapid progress towards new KMS architectures and the stuff I understand to less of to talk in detail about, but I suffer the consequences. For years I ran a whole computer lab and server platform with number cruncher for the meteorological department of an university. After 2003 the situation changed dramatically and today, where CUDA is all over the place, there is no server left because even the server platform suffer from some academic aspects. And we need to face the truth. FreeBSD lives also from a braod basis of acceptance and popularity. If it is only a beloved project by some eccentrics and geeks keen on development, then the system loose touch to the ground of needs. This is overexaggerated, surely, but I see a slight tendency
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I would be happy if such a page would see an update in shorter terms like 11 years ... Fixing some ancient PRs would be nice also. (fixed, not just closed) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
30.08.2011 12:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 08/29/2011 10:58 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko wrote: If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. I dont think a monthly update is the good solution. A per release update is better, as far as releases bring a new set that could be compared. I don't think all other OS'es will bring new set of features only when FreeBSD is released. Then, a deep knwoledge of the other OSes is required in order to keep credit. I think it's a huge amount of work, that should be assigned to the project itself. IMHO, Let's delegate this task to Wikipedia or StackOverflow... I totally disagree. Sites like Wikipedia or StackOverflow serve they own means. When it comes to the point of selecting os you need to show exec one page or even give him one document and searching different bits of information on different sites wouldn't be pretty. Besides it's much better to have control over this page to make sure it's fresh and current. -- Sphinx of black quartz judge my vow. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
30.08.2011 12:23, Sergey Kandaurov wrote: [Taking random email.] I think we could merge the $subj web page with this one (which is more actual, as of 7.0): http://www.freebsd.org/features.html The pages serve different purposes. There's no point in elaborating about feature X if feature X support doesn't differ from other OS implementation. And we should focus on major differences, not just any other feature. Despite we are a company of enthusiasts most enthusiasts once in a lifetime come to the problem of explaining why this OS is better than other or why we shouldn't count on FreeBSD yet. -- Sphinx of black quartz judge my vow. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
I can help, I just changed my job and get more spare time. Currently I can help write doc and test. There is much documentation about DTrace ( thanks Sun), but none of these describes the technical details of FreeBSD DTrace implementation, so I think we can start with this. 1 write doc about what we have done. The kernel DTrace is quite stable, but compared to Solaris, what else do we miss, what Solaris has but we do not, whether we implement all the builtin var and function, if not, do we have other alternative?. I come across problems with DTrace, but I don't know whether it is a bug or has not been supported 2 write more examples about how to debug kernel with DTrace on FreeBSD, I think these example can let others know what we can do with DTrace. BTW, I am a Chinese and live in Chengdu, China, I can't have access to dtrace.what-creek.com because of GFW, so maybe I miss something. I started to use FreeBSD about 2.5 year ago, and learn FreeBSD kernel recently because of DTrace. I like it and I hope I can do something more 2011/8/31 Andriy Gapon a...@freebsd.org on 30/08/2011 18:39 Andriy Gapon said the following: 4. There is a missing developer/maintainer for DTrace on FreeBSD. I probably should clarify this point: it doesn't have to be *the* maintainer, a collective maintainer is also perfect. Thus, contributions are very welcome. Nevertheless the kernel DTrace is quite usable and useful for kernel debugging. -- Andriy Gapon ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
Hi, http://dtrace.what-creek.com no longer exists, because sadly, the author of that web page (John Birrell) is no longer with us: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-announce/2009-November/001284.html There are some other documentation pages available for DTrace on FreeBSD: http://wiki.freebsd.org/DTrace http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/dtrace.html If you have ideas for how to enhance this documentation, you should submit your ideas. The freebsd-...@freebsd.org mailing list is a good place to start. -- Craig Rodrigues rodr...@crodrigues.org On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Paul Ambrose ambrose...@gmail.com wrote: BTW, I am a Chinese and live in Chengdu, China, I can't have access to dtrace.what-creek.com because of GFW, so maybe I miss something. I started to use FreeBSD about 2.5 year ago, and learn FreeBSD kernel recently because of DTrace. I like it and I hope I can do something more ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 08/30/2011 08:30 PM, Hartmann, O. wrote: I would be scared away by such an arrogant looking page! So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? -- RMA. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 31 August 2011 13:28, Mihamina Rakotomandimby miham...@rktmb.org wrote: So, refactoring this page is a must. 1°) Put it offline? (i.e with a At work placeholder) 2°) Process a feature list on one table column, leaving N columns emtpy for N other OS, waiting for skills to contribute? My 2c: * remove the page for now; * someone finds someone with proven marketing skills; * enlist their help in marketing, PR, etc, and update the website with relevant details; * the rest of us developers/users should go back to doing what we're good at :) Adrian ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
27.08.2011 22:13, Hartmann, O. wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html I think this one would better look like list of major features with os comparison, like: = Networking = * IPv6: major support, best stack around. * SCTP: full kernel implementation, still no userland support (i.e. ssh doesn't work over sctp by default yet). = Data storage = * ZFS: full support, datasets, compression, dedup, other stuff. Linux has LVM (?features...) and btrfs (?unstable.. ?features..), Windows has dynamic disks since XP (?features). = SMP = * (?something about comparing other shedulers with SCHED_ULE), (?some rt stuff), (?some comparison with other interesting shedulers, like DragonflyBSD and QNX). If that page would be updated at least monthly giving fair comparison with other os'es it could serve a big pros list for preferring FreeBSD over other systems. -- Sphinx of black quartz judge my vow. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. Chris ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On 28 August 2011 19:47, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Sunday, August 28, 2011 a las 07:27:49PM +0100, Chris Rees escribió: On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. It's a pitty that the comments until now are only general like full of vintage stuff, agreed, rather FUD, but without concrete critics or proposals of changes of wrong data. No, it's just hopelessly out of date and needs removal/total rewriting. I find it embarassing to have it there to be honest with its current tone. Chris ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Sunday, August 28, 2011 a las 07:27:49PM +0100, Chris Rees escribió: On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. It's a pitty that the comments until now are only general like full of vintage stuff, agreed, rather FUD, but without concrete critics or proposals of changes of wrong data. Ok then: 1. It's out of date (the obvious). This comes down to some of the information being completely incorrect as far as featuresets, and just looks embarrassing in other respects because it's using Windows 2000 as a comparison (it's a 10 year old OS). 2. Broken links. 3. The smiley icons are very unprofessional. 4. There's a lot of wasted horizontal space on the webpage. 5. There's no data to back up some of the claimed observations (what version of FreeBSD, Linux, Windows were used; what performance metrics were obtained; how things were tuned; etc). 6. Some of the data (example: the SQL error text under Performance in the Windows column) is in the wrong spot, s.t. it distracts readers. If anything it belongs in the footnotes. 7. The breakdown is too terse. Execs and business types like looking at bullet points; the technical folks like looking at things in more gross detail. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Sunday, August 28, 2011 a las 07:27:49PM +0100, Chris Rees escribió: On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. It's a pitty that the comments until now are only general like full of vintage stuff, agreed, rather FUD, but without concrete critics or proposals of changes of wrong data. Ok then: 1. It's out of date (the obvious). This comes down to some of the information being completely incorrect as far as featuresets, and just looks embarrassing in other respects because it's using Windows 2000 as a comparison (it's a 10 year old OS). 2. Broken links. 3. The smiley icons are very unprofessional. 4. There's a lot of wasted horizontal space on the webpage. 5. There's no data to back up some of the claimed observations (what version of FreeBSD, Linux, Windows were used; what performance metrics were obtained; how things were tuned; etc). 6. Some of the data (example: the SQL error text under Performance in the Windows column) is in the wrong spot, s.t. it distracts readers. If anything it belongs in the footnotes. 7. The breakdown is too terse. Execs and business types like looking at bullet points; the technical folks like looking at things in more gross detail. One more: 8. Text like The Linux community intentionally makes it difficult for hardware manufacturers to release binary-only drivers. is confrontational and unprofessional. It's the GPL license more than the community that forces vendors to opensource proprietary code because that's the primary goal of the license -- to keep the source free and open -- whereas BSD allows the developer to do whatever they want with the source. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Justin Hibbits chmeeed...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 28, 2011, at 3:15 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Sunday, August 28, 2011 a las 07:27:49PM +0100, Chris Rees escribió: On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. It's a pitty that the comments until now are only general like full of vintage stuff, agreed, rather FUD, but without concrete critics or proposals of changes of wrong data. Ok then: 1. It's out of date (the obvious). This comes down to some of the information being completely incorrect as far as featuresets, and just looks embarrassing in other respects because it's using Windows 2000 as a comparison (it's a 10 year old OS). 2. Broken links. 3. The smiley icons are very unprofessional. 4. There's a lot of wasted horizontal space on the webpage. 5. There's no data to back up some of the claimed observations (what version of FreeBSD, Linux, Windows were used; what performance metrics were obtained; how things were tuned; etc). 6. Some of the data (example: the SQL error text under Performance in the Windows column) is in the wrong spot, s.t. it distracts readers. If anything it belongs in the footnotes. 7. The breakdown is too terse. Execs and business types like looking at bullet points; the technical folks like looking at things in more gross detail. One more: 8. Text like The Linux community intentionally makes it difficult for hardware manufacturers to release binary-only drivers. is confrontational and unprofessional. It's the GPL license more than the community that forces vendors to opensource proprietary code because that's the primary goal of the license -- to keep the source free and open -- whereas BSD allows the developer to do whatever they want with the source. Tiny nit on that: The linux community has made it clear (see GregKH's many statements), that they will forever refuse to create a stable ABI, for the express purpose of forcing hardware manufacturers to submit to their will. Good point (forgot that essay) :). Seems like that would be a good reference for that claim. Thanks, -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Aug 28, 2011, at 3:15 PM, Garrett Cooper wrote: On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Sunday, August 28, 2011 a las 07:27:49PM +0100, Chris Rees escribió: On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. It's a pitty that the comments until now are only general like full of vintage stuff, agreed, rather FUD, but without concrete critics or proposals of changes of wrong data. Ok then: 1. It's out of date (the obvious). This comes down to some of the information being completely incorrect as far as featuresets, and just looks embarrassing in other respects because it's using Windows 2000 as a comparison (it's a 10 year old OS). 2. Broken links. 3. The smiley icons are very unprofessional. 4. There's a lot of wasted horizontal space on the webpage. 5. There's no data to back up some of the claimed observations (what version of FreeBSD, Linux, Windows were used; what performance metrics were obtained; how things were tuned; etc). 6. Some of the data (example: the SQL error text under Performance in the Windows column) is in the wrong spot, s.t. it distracts readers. If anything it belongs in the footnotes. 7. The breakdown is too terse. Execs and business types like looking at bullet points; the technical folks like looking at things in more gross detail. One more: 8. Text like The Linux community intentionally makes it difficult for hardware manufacturers to release binary-only drivers. is confrontational and unprofessional. It's the GPL license more than the community that forces vendors to opensource proprietary code because that's the primary goal of the license -- to keep the source free and open -- whereas BSD allows the developer to do whatever they want with the source. Thanks, -Garrett Tiny nit on that: The linux community has made it clear (see GregKH's many statements), that they will forever refuse to create a stable ABI, for the express purpose of forcing hardware manufacturers to submit to their will. - Justin ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
El día Sunday, August 28, 2011 a las 07:27:49PM +0100, Chris Rees escribió: On 27 August 2011 20:32, Garrett Cooper yaneg...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. It reads rather FUD-like too. It's a pitty that the comments until now are only general like full of vintage stuff, agreed, rather FUD, but without concrete critics or proposals of changes of wrong data. matthias -- Matthias Apitz t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html O. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Hartmann, O. ohart...@zedat.fu-berlin.de wrote: This website should be brushed up or taken offline! It seems full of vintage stuff from glory days. http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Agreed. Things have changed quite a bit in the last decade. -Garrett ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
