Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Thu, Dec 09, 1999 at 10:23:40AM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: Are you sure? Any a.out binaries for FreeBSD are going to be desgined to work with 3.x or older. Why??? A.out runs just fine on 4.0-R, and had better on 5.0-R. So producing a.out libraries for CURRENT is silly. :-) Nope. You really need to think about the ISV's. Why do you think Netscape is still a.out? ISV's want to produce one binary that runs across multiple generations of FreeBSD. Take Applixware for instance. It is built on 3.1. It needs compat3x to run on CURRENT. Don't be surprised if Applixware is still built on 3.1 when 5.0-R hits the streets. What I'm getting at here is ISV's needs are different from ours as OS developers. -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:09:02 -0800, "David O'Brien" [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [Attribution lost.] So producing a.out libraries for CURRENT is silly. :-) Nope. You really need to think about the ISV's. Why do you think Netscape is still a.out? ISV's want to produce one binary that runs across multiple generations of FreeBSD. Which, of course, is the whole point. There is no forward compatibility, only backward. a.out binaries compiled on 4.0 simply WILL NOT WORK on 3.x, unless they're in that tiny class of trivial programs which do not invoke any sort of signal handling. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same [EMAIL PROTECTED] | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Chuck Robey wrote: This isn't taking the execution of aout binaries out, just stopping a world build. This is only going to stop 3rd party developers from making a 4.0 aout platform to create *more* aout binaries. They'll probably hang on for dear life on 2.2, just as long as they can. Heh. :-) True enough. But *new* developments won't. What Motoyuki-san is complaining about is that applications that depend on a.out libraries will suffer. Alas, I don't think that's the case, since all these libraries are (or ought to be, anyway) in compat. Looking at copious examples from real life, forcing 3rd party developers to upgrade is a good way to lose 3rd party developers. It just *sounds* like a good way to go. As long as this is a change for building world, and not making changes to the kern/imgact things (so we keep on executing aout binaries) then this is probably the best way to go. OTOH, going the other way around is the reason why we (users) had to deal with things like 1 Mb RAM and 64 Kb segments in the age of 486s, one generation after the introduction of the 80386. As a free operating system supported by volunteer effort, we are interested in driving the hardware to it's limits instead of being limited by the ways we once did things. -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) who is as social as a wampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: What Motoyuki-san is complaining about is that applications that depend on a.out libraries will suffer. Alas, I don't think that's the case, since all these libraries are (or ought to be, anyway) in compat. Looking at copious examples from real life, forcing 3rd party developers to upgrade is a good way to lose 3rd party developers. It just *sounds* like a good way to go. As long as this is a change for building world, and not making changes to the kern/imgact things (so we keep on executing aout binaries) then this is probably the best way to go. OTOH, going the other way around is the reason why we (users) had to deal with things like 1 Mb RAM and 64 Kb segments in the age of 486s, one generation after the introduction of the 80386. As a free operating system supported by volunteer effort, we are interested in driving the hardware to it's limits instead of being limited by the ways we once did things. Absolutely, but (here's the caveat) if it *doesn't* hold up any new development, and there's a significant base of users actually deriving benefit from it, then I wouldn't agree. I'm kinda binary about that test, because I fully agree that, if it holds up technology in a project like ours, it's out the door! Stopping the new aout world builds doesn't injure users of aout software, it only *really* strongly discourages new development in aout. I think it just needed to be emphasized that the aout imgact stuff isn't being tossed, so aout executables will still work (those that aren't otherwise incompatible). Chuck Robey| Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770| I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Hi, YAMAMOTO Shigeru [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: In a log of @src/Makefile, revision 1.230, o The legacy aout build has been removed. Why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current? Are we now living in the TRUE ELF world? I also wonder why a.out support was removed from -current. I think we don't need "a.out world" any more, but a.out support (a.out lib/shared lib, etc.) is still needed. Some commercial programs such as Netscape are in a.out only, so we still have to make a.out binaries. Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. Thanks. -- Motoyuki Konno [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Univ) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (FreeBSD Project) Yamanashi Medical Universityhttp://www.freebsd.org/~motoyuki/ (WWW) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Thu, 09 Dec 1999 17:00:50 +0900, Motoyuki Konno wrote: I think we don't need "a.out world" any more, but a.out support (a.out lib/shared lib, etc.) is still needed. Some commercial programs such as Netscape are in a.out only, so we still have to make a.out binaries. Are you sure? Any a.out binaries for FreeBSD are going to be desgined to work with 3.x or older. So producing a.out libraries for CURRENT is silly. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
YAMAMOTO Shigeru wrote: In a log of @src/Makefile, revision 1.230, o The legacy aout build has been removed. Why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current? There's no point in building legacy a.out stuff from -current sources. The result has nothing to do with legacy but only with a.out. Compatibility with legacy a.out binaries can best be achieved by installing the proper compat distribution (compat22 for example). -- Marcel Moolenaarmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SCC Internetworking Databases http://www.scc.nl/ The FreeBSD projectmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Motoyuki Konno wrote: I also wonder why a.out support was removed from -current. a.out support has not been removed. We just don't do any legacy a.out building. I think we don't need "a.out world" any more, but a.out support (a.out lib/shared lib, etc.) is still needed. For this, the proper compat distribution should/can be installed. Some commercial programs such as Netscape are in a.out only, so we still have to make a.out binaries. No, we only have to *run* them. This we do. If Netscape were to compile on -current, they would have an ELF version... Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. The port has nothing to do with building a legacy a.out world and consequently works fine (yes, I tested it :-) -- Marcel Moolenaarmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SCC Internetworking Databases http://www.scc.nl/ The FreeBSD projectmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Motoyuki Konno wrote: I also wonder why a.out support was removed from -current. a.out support has not been removed. We just don't do any legacy a.out building. I think we don't need "a.out world" any more, but a.out support (a.out lib/shared lib, etc.) is still needed. For this, the proper compat distribution should/can be installed. Some commercial programs such as Netscape are in a.out only, so we still have to make a.out binaries. No, we only have to *run* them. This we do. If Netscape were to compile on -current, they would have an ELF version... Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. The port has nothing to do with building a legacy a.out world and consequently works fine (yes, I tested it :-) -- Marcel Moolenaarmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SCC Internetworking Databases http://www.scc.nl/ The FreeBSD projectmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. The port has nothing to do with building a legacy a.out world and consequently works fine (yes, I tested it :-) Not really. You have to have a.out crt0.o and friends to be able to link it. You probably have some old versions around in your system, but they are not built by "world" target. Hence, they are not a part of binary distrib. Andrzej Bialecki // [EMAIL PROTECTED] WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // --- // -- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org // --- Small Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Andrzej Bialecki wrote: On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. The port has nothing to do with building a legacy a.out world and consequently works fine (yes, I tested it :-) Not really. You have to have a.out crt0.o and friends to be able to link it. You probably have some old versions around in your system, but they are not built by "world" target. Hence, they are not a part of binary distrib. Yes, I have c++rt0.o in /usr/lib/aout. If I didn't have it, I would be given directions on how to get it (from the port): 1. extract /usr/src/lib (distribution files: src/slib.??) 2. cd /usr/src/lib/csu/i386 3. make depend 4. make OBJFORMAT=aout clean all install -- Marcel Moolenaarmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SCC Internetworking Databases http://www.scc.nl/ The FreeBSD projectmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: Andrzej Bialecki wrote: On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. The port has nothing to do with building a legacy a.out world and consequently works fine (yes, I tested it :-) Not really. You have to have a.out crt0.o and friends to be able to link it. You probably have some old versions around in your system, but they are not built by "world" target. Hence, they are not a part of binary distrib. Yes, I have c++rt0.o in /usr/lib/aout. If I didn't have it, I would be given directions on how to get it (from the port): 1. extract /usr/src/lib (distribution files: src/slib.??) 2. cd /usr/src/lib/csu/i386 3. make depend 4. make OBJFORMAT=aout clean all install True. But this adds a dependency for this port on the src/lib tree. I was thinking about average people that have binary distribution + kernel sources. They are screwed. Andrzej Bialecki // [EMAIL PROTECTED] WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // --- // -- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org // --- Small Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Andrzej Bialecki wrote: 1. extract /usr/src/lib (distribution files: src/slib.??) 2. cd /usr/src/lib/csu/i386 3. make depend 4. make OBJFORMAT=aout clean all install True. But this adds a dependency for this port on the src/lib tree. I was thinking about average people that have binary distribution + kernel sources. They are screwed. The dependency always existed, because people without src/lib cannot make legacy a.out as part of their world, for which you also need more than kernel sources alone :-) The point here is that you don't need a legacy a.out build as part of your world to get this port working. -- Marcel Moolenaarmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SCC Internetworking Databases http://www.scc.nl/ The FreeBSD projectmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
Motoyuki Konno wrote: I think we don't need "a.out world" any more, but a.out support (a.out lib/shared lib, etc.) is still needed. Some commercial programs such as Netscape are in a.out only, so we still have to make a.out binaries. Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. Current is not a general use platform. And if we want them (third party) to support FreeBSD-elf by the time 4.x becomes -stable, we better lock them out of it *now*. The main reason for removing the legacy support is forcing people to switch. -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) who is as social as a wampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: Motoyuki Konno wrote: I think we don't need "a.out world" any more, but a.out support (a.out lib/shared lib, etc.) is still needed. Some commercial programs such as Netscape are in a.out only, so we still have to make a.out binaries. Please see Netscape plugin port (ports/www/flashplugin) to find out why we still have to need a.out support. Current is not a general use platform. And if we want them (third party) to support FreeBSD-elf by the time 4.x becomes -stable, we better lock them out of it *now*. The main reason for removing the legacy support is forcing people to switch. This isn't taking the execution of aout binaries out, just stopping a world build. This is only going to stop 3rd party developers from making a 4.0 aout platform to create *more* aout binaries. They'll probably hang on for dear life on 2.2, just as long as they can. Looking at copious examples from real life, forcing 3rd party developers to upgrade is a good way to lose 3rd party developers. It just *sounds* like a good way to go. As long as this is a change for building world, and not making changes to the kern/imgact things (so we keep on executing aout binaries) then this is probably the best way to go. Chuck Robey| Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770| I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current ?
In a log of @src/Makefile, revision 1.230, o The legacy aout build has been removed. Why 'The legacy aout build' was removed from current? Are we now living in the TRUE ELF world? Thanks, --- YAMAMOTO ShigeruInternet Initiative Japan Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Network Engineering Div. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
