Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On 08/09/2013 09:34, Patrick Dung wrote: Some (crazy?) ideas: a) Is it possible to install multiple Perl versions in the same server? Each third party Perl packages would linked to the corresponding Perl versions? Users have to update /usr/bin/perl to link to the desired Perl version (or using wrapper mechanism like /etc/mail/mail.conf). Being able to create multiple unique environments on the same host is very beneficial. I believe Oracle Solaris on ZFS is able to install individual packages into separate zones, and ZFS can share certain zones between each other. Manipulating sharing rules allows creation of exactly this: various unique set of packages in top-level zones. So for example, perl and all its dependent packages can be installed multiple times in multiple versions in different ZFS zones on top of shared dependency packages. Unfortunately, FreeBSD version of ZFS lacks zones. Yuri ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On 8/9/2013 9:29 PM, Patrick Dung wrote: Yes, I can install lang/perl5.12. But in that case, I can't install other perl /p5 pre-build packages (which depends on Perl 5.14) provided by FreeBSD, due to dependency problem. Install them from ports and add the external dependencies from packages. Tools like portmaster even have options to automate this for you. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
Thanks for reply. I am an user. I am using or thinking from the user perspective. 1) Perl version change within Major release Do you see the problem with having to support an ancient Perl version that is 13 years old? I'd suspect many modern Perl applications to not even work on Perl 5.8.9. CentOS shipped Perl 5.8 in CentOS 5 series. They shipped Perl 5.10 in CentOS 6 series. So far I have no problem in doing the OS upgrade within the minor release. It is because the Perl (or other packages eg. gcc/python) version is consistent between the OS major versions. Let share an experience for my case. I have installed OTRS (a great ticketing system) in FreeBSD 9.0. The Perl version at that time is 5.12. For me, upgrading to FreeBSD 9.1 take some time because the Perl version at that time is 5.14. OTRS depends on lots of Perl/p5 modules/packages. This is not scalable if I need to upgrade multiple servers. Some (crazy?) ideas: a) Is it possible to install multiple Perl versions in the same server? Each third party Perl packages would linked to the corresponding Perl versions? Users have to update /usr/bin/perl to link to the desired Perl version (or using wrapper mechanism like /etc/mail/mail.conf). The installed package may like these: perl58-5.8.xxx p5-perl58-Net-zzz perl510-5.10.yyy p5-perl510-Net-zzz In this case, the user can install multiple Perl in the FreeBSD system. b) Try to use the newest stable Perl version at the very beginning FreeBSD major release. And try to maintain the Perl major version consistent within the FreeBSD minor release. For example, using Perl 5.14 at FreeBSD 9.0 and Perl 5.18 for FreeBSD 10.0. 2) pkgng man pkg-check pkg check -s is used to find invalid checksums for installed packages. I think this does not protect from the checksum and the files is being changed at the same time. When using pkg_add -r, I am concerned that if the packages was being tampered. And I have no way to verify it. Or how can user authenticate that the package is build by FreeBSD? I don't think packages are signed yet, but this is permitted by the new pkg design and will hopefully happen before too long. Good to hear that. 3) systat I hope systat can record statistics periodically. Currently systat is like 'top', that is monitoring system resources in real time. Thanks and regards, Patrick Dung Message: 4 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:34:21 -0500 From: Mark Felder f...@freebsd.org To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Discussing ideas or wish list Message-ID: 1375976061.30215.7553799.0e22b...@webmail.messagingengine.com Content-Type: text/plain On Thu, Aug 8, 2013, at 9:54, Patrick Dung wrote: 1) Perl version change within Major release If I remembered correctly, FreeBSD 9.0 shipped with perl 5.12 packages in the DVD. But in FreeBSD 9.1, Perl 5.14 is shipped. I think Perl version should be consistent in the FreeBSD 9 series. The change of Perl version may make user difficult to upgrade other perl packages due to dependency issues. The ports tree is a rolling release and decides what the default perl version is, not the FreeBSD release. Let's ignore that though and take a peek into history using FreeBSD 8 series as an example because it's closer to EoL. Perl 5.8.0 is officially released July 18, 2002. Perl 5.8.9 is officially EoL on Nov 6, 2008. FreeBSD 8.0 released Nov 25, 2009. The ports tree's default Perl version at that point in time is Perl 5.8.9. Both Perl 5.8.9 and 5.10.1 are available as packages at that time. FreeBSD 8.4 released June 7, 2013. The ports tree's default Perl version at that point in time is 5.14.2. FreeBSD 8.4 could be the last release in the FreeBSD 8.x series. Its estimated EoL is June 30, 2015. Do you see the problem with having to support an ancient Perl version that is 13 years old? I'd suspect many modern Perl applications to not even work on Perl 5.8.9. I know pkgng should replaced the old package management tools in FreeBSD 10, I hope the situation would improve. After the EoL of FreeBSD 8 (estimated June 30, 2015) the old package tools are scheduled to be removed from FreeBSD. This change will be MFC'd back to 9-STABLE and the release at that time (perhaps 9.4-RELEASE?) will not have the old pkg_* tools. This seems a bit odd to happen in the middle of a series because of POLA, but we can't support the old package tools forever and FreeBSD 9.1-9.3 will have given you plenty of opportunity to migrate to the new package format and ease the upgrade to FreeBSD 10.x. 2) pkgng I think it has checksum checking on the files in the packages. Could pkgng detect the packages was being tampered? man pkg-check pkg check -s is used to find invalid checksums for installed packages. Or how can user authenticate that the package is build by FreeBSD? I don't think packages are signed yet, but this is permitted by the new pkg design and will hopefully happen before too long
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On 8/9/2013 9:34 AM, Patrick Dung wrote: Let share an experience for my case. I have installed OTRS (a great ticketing system) in FreeBSD 9.0. The Perl version at that time is 5.12. For me, upgrading to FreeBSD 9.1 take some time because the Perl version at that time is 5.14. OTRS depends on lots of Perl/p5 modules/packages. This is not scalable if I need to upgrade multiple servers. Perl is not in the base system, so why is this an issue? If you need 5.12 on 9.1, install lang/perl5.12. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
Yes, I can install lang/perl5.12. But in that case, I can't install other perl /p5 pre-build packages (which depends on Perl 5.14) provided by FreeBSD, due to dependency problem. From: Darren Pilgrim list_free...@bluerosetech.com To: Patrick Dung patrick_...@yahoo.com.hk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Discussing ideas or wish list On 8/9/2013 9:34 AM, Patrick Dung wrote: Let share an experience for my case. I have installed OTRS (a great ticketing system) in FreeBSD 9.0. The Perl version at that time is 5.12. For me, upgrading to FreeBSD 9.1 take some time because the Perl version at that time is 5.14. OTRS depends on lots of Perl/p5 modules/packages. This is not scalable if I need to upgrade multiple servers. Perl is not in the base system, so why is this an issue? If you need 5.12 on 9.1, install lang/perl5.12. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On Thu, 8 Aug 2013 22:54:53 +0800 (SGT) Patrick Dung patrick_...@yahoo.com.hk wrote: 3) FreeBSD's own systat Yes. there is bsdsar in the ports, but I would like to see improvement. For example, stat for multiple CPU, number of open files/context switches, one statistics file per day, etc... There's already systat on base system. For the information you want do: a) Type on terminal/xterm #systat 1 b) Press ':' and type 'vmstat' (without quotes) You have the statistics updated every second. Press ':' and type 'help' to see other commands information screens. Thanks and regards, Patrick Dung HTH --- --- Eduardo Morras emorr...@yahoo.es ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On Thu, Aug 8, 2013, at 9:54, Patrick Dung wrote: 1) Perl version change within Major release If I remembered correctly, FreeBSD 9.0 shipped with perl 5.12 packages in the DVD. But in FreeBSD 9.1, Perl 5.14 is shipped. I think Perl version should be consistent in the FreeBSD 9 series. The change of Perl version may make user difficult to upgrade other perl packages due to dependency issues. The ports tree is a rolling release and decides what the default perl version is, not the FreeBSD release. Let's ignore that though and take a peek into history using FreeBSD 8 series as an example because it's closer to EoL. Perl 5.8.0 is officially released July 18, 2002. Perl 5.8.9 is officially EoL on Nov 6, 2008. FreeBSD 8.0 released Nov 25, 2009. The ports tree's default Perl version at that point in time is Perl 5.8.9. Both Perl 5.8.9 and 5.10.1 are available as packages at that time. FreeBSD 8.4 released June 7, 2013. The ports tree's default Perl version at that point in time is 5.14.2. FreeBSD 8.4 could be the last release in the FreeBSD 8.x series. Its estimated EoL is June 30, 2015. Do you see the problem with having to support an ancient Perl version that is 13 years old? I'd suspect many modern Perl applications to not even work on Perl 5.8.9. I know pkgng should replaced the old package management tools in FreeBSD 10, I hope the situation would improve. After the EoL of FreeBSD 8 (estimated June 30, 2015) the old package tools are scheduled to be removed from FreeBSD. This change will be MFC'd back to 9-STABLE and the release at that time (perhaps 9.4-RELEASE?) will not have the old pkg_* tools. This seems a bit odd to happen in the middle of a series because of POLA, but we can't support the old package tools forever and FreeBSD 9.1-9.3 will have given you plenty of opportunity to migrate to the new package format and ease the upgrade to FreeBSD 10.x. 2) pkgng I think it has checksum checking on the files in the packages. Could pkgng detect the packages was being tampered? man pkg-check pkg check -s is used to find invalid checksums for installed packages. Or how can user authenticate that the package is build by FreeBSD? I don't think packages are signed yet, but this is permitted by the new pkg design and will hopefully happen before too long. 3) FreeBSD's own systat Yes. there is bsdsar in the ports, but I would like to see improvement. For example, stat for multiple CPU, number of open files/context switches, one statistics file per day, etc... I think systat is great, too. We could probably import some functionality from OpenBSD as I recall their systat has more features. Thank you for your feedback and I hope I've answered a couple of your questions. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On Thu, Aug 8, 2013, at 10:34, Mark Felder wrote: After the EoL of FreeBSD 8 (estimated June 30, 2015) the old package tools are scheduled to be removed from FreeBSD. This change will be MFC'd back to 9-STABLE and the release at that time (perhaps 9.4-RELEASE?) will not have the old pkg_* tools. This seems a bit odd to happen in the middle of a series because of POLA, but we can't support the old package tools forever and FreeBSD 9.1-9.3 will have given you plenty of opportunity to migrate to the new package format and ease the upgrade to FreeBSD 10.x. Note this isn't set in stone. Watch the Roadmap on this page: https://wiki.freebsd.org/pkgng/CharterAndRoadMap ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On Thu, Aug 08, 2013 at 10:34:21AM -0500, Mark Felder wrote: I think systat is great, too. We could probably import some functionality from OpenBSD as I recall their systat has more features. It depends. FreeBSD's systat has some features that OpenBSD's doesn't have and vice versa (list take from the manpages): FreeBSD: icmpDisplay, in the lower window, statistics about messages icmp6 This display is like the icmp display, but displays statis- ip Otherwise identical to the icmp display, except that it dis- ip6 Like the ip display, except that it displays IPv6 statistics. tcp Like icmp, but with TCP statistics. OpenBSD: buckets Display kernel malloc(9) bucket statistics similar to the malloc Display kernel malloc(9) type statistics similar to the nfsclient Display statistics about NFS client activity. Output nfsserver Display statistics about NFS server activity. Output pf Display filter information about pf(4), similar to the output poolDisplay kernel pool(9) statistics similar to the output of queues Display statistics about the active altq(9) queues, similar rules Display pf rules statistics, similar to the output of pfctl sensors Display the current values of available hardware sensors, in states Display pf states statistics, similar to the output of pfctl pgpJtZh7gV2iW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Discussing ideas or wish list
On 08/08/2013 16:36, Mark Felder wrote: On Thu, Aug 8, 2013, at 10:34, Mark Felder wrote: After the EoL of FreeBSD 8 (estimated June 30, 2015) the old package tools are scheduled to be removed from FreeBSD. This change will be MFC'd back to 9-STABLE and the release at that time (perhaps 9.4-RELEASE?) will not have the old pkg_* tools. This seems a bit odd to happen in the middle of a series because of POLA, but we can't support the old package tools forever and FreeBSD 9.1-9.3 will have given you plenty of opportunity to migrate to the new package format and ease the upgrade to FreeBSD 10.x. Note this isn't set in stone. Watch the Roadmap on this page: https://wiki.freebsd.org/pkgng/CharterAndRoadMap Actually, that RoadMap is in dire need of updating. The OS release schedule got reworked after the RoadMap was written and the security incident and the consequent necessity of completely redesigning and rebuilding the pkgng package building system has added various delays too. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey JID: matt...@infracaninophile.co.uk signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
