Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 03:43:12AM +0200, Wilko Bulte wrote: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html As others already said - to small to run FreeBSD. No MMU, very tight RAM and code space. Note that they are not based on Linux, but on uCLinux, which is something different. RTEMS should be a good candidate - it is not Linux, but unfortunately has large portions under GPL too. But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
Bernd Walter wrote: On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 03:43:12AM +0200, Wilko Bulte wrote: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html As others already said - to small to run FreeBSD. No MMU, very tight RAM and code space. Note that they are not based on Linux, but on uCLinux, which is something different. RTEMS should be a good candidate - it is not Linux, but unfortunately has large portions under GPL too. But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. An MMU-less port of any BSD would be very worthwhile, even if it requires a radical divergence from the original codebase. I was hoping that such a treat would appear out of NetBSD, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Scott ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 03:41:42AM -0700, Scott Long wrote: Bernd Walter wrote: On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 03:43:12AM +0200, Wilko Bulte wrote: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html As others already said - to small to run FreeBSD. No MMU, very tight RAM and code space. Note that they are not based on Linux, but on uCLinux, which is something different. RTEMS should be a good candidate - it is not Linux, but unfortunately has large portions under GPL too. But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. An MMU-less port of any BSD would be very worthwhile, even if it requires a radical divergence from the original codebase. I was hoping that such a treat would appear out of NetBSD, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It's a matter on how far you want to go. There are many MMU and GPL less solutions available. The following can be considered as the other extrem end: uIP, lwIP, Nut/OS, ... Just having the essential to run network based services. There is very much room of what people might expect from systems with more features. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
--- Scott Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] An MMU-less port of any BSD would be very worthwhile, even if it requires a radical divergence from the original codebase. I was woudn''t it be rather inefficient (in the BEST case) -handling numerous memory contextx -1 per process? hoping that such a treat would appear out of NetBSD, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Scott They have taken a conscious decision not to work in that direction -as it would screw up their overall s/w architecture in accomodating that port [if they do manage to get a non-mmu port ready]. regards -kamal ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kamal R. Prasad UNIX systems consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is:-). __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:36:15PM +0200, Bernd Walter wrote: Note that they are not based on Linux, but on uCLinux, which is something different. Not really. It's just a linux kernel compiled without support for MMUs. Which compiles out most of the linux VM code and adds some smart stubs instead. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 03:13:07AM -0800, Kamal R. Prasad wrote: --- Scott Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] An MMU-less port of any BSD would be very worthwhile, even if it requires a radical divergence from the original codebase. I was woudn''t it be rather inefficient (in the BEST case) -handling numerous memory contextx -1 per process? hoping that such a treat would appear out of NetBSD, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Scott They have taken a conscious decision not to work in that direction -as it would screw up their overall s/w architecture in accomodating that port [if they do manage to get a non-mmu port ready]. There is no doubt that this would be better as a complete split off. It is even the question if you want to start by using an established BSD or start from zero and import. However - I see limited use from this. The low end doesn't need posix API, process management and runs with very simple hardware. E.g. you can get ARMv7 CPUs with internal RAM of up to 64k and I already run control systems with Ethernet and Webinterface on a 32K RAM 8 bit CPU - the memory is mostly populated by TCP buffers. If you want more then you need at least external RAM - prices get higher and finally your price is very close to ARMv9 and even smaller x86 Systems. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:36 +0200: But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. Or you can look at the TS-7200 from http://www.embeddedarm.com/ . It's smaller than a Soekris, and is slightly larger than the PC-104 form factor.. Right now I have it netbooting, but I need to figure out why I have some ethernet issues... The code is in p4, though if people are really interested, I can generate a patch... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 11:12:05AM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:36 +0200: But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. Or you can look at the TS-7200 from http://www.embeddedarm.com/ . It's smaller than a Soekris, and is slightly larger than the PC-104 form factor.. Right now I have it netbooting, but I need to figure out why I have some ethernet issues... The code is in p4, though if people are really interested, I can generate a patch... It costs more then the Soekris 4526-20 and is only slightly smaller in size. And the 4526 doesn't need regulated power plus has onboard ata flash. But this is still an interesting board after all - especially as it has USB ports and lot of GPIO, which I need sometimes. USB on Soekris require add-on hardware our pricier boards. How stable is FreeBSD on ARMv9 already? I didn't even know that it is running yet. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 23:06 +0200: On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 11:12:05AM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:36 +0200: But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. Or you can look at the TS-7200 from http://www.embeddedarm.com/ . It's smaller than a Soekris, and is slightly larger than the PC-104 form factor.. Right now I have it netbooting, but I need to figure out why I have some ethernet issues... The code is in p4, though if people are really interested, I can generate a patch... It costs more then the Soekris 4526-20 and is only slightly smaller in size. plus has dual mini-pci.. while the TS-7200 only has PC-104 (basicly ISA).. And the 4526 doesn't need regulated power plus has onboard ata flash. also looks like it supports PoE, which the TS-7200 doesn't... Right now I'm using a breadboarded LM7805 for power, but I am going to build a daughter card for this project, and so I'm going to throw a switching power supply on it.. so the regulated requirement isn't such a big deal.. also, it doesn't need as much power either.. TS says only 1 AMP at 5V is necessary... I haven't measured it yet though... But this is still an interesting board after all - especially as it has USB ports and lot of GPIO, which I need sometimes. USB on Soekris require add-on hardware our pricier boards. How stable is FreeBSD on ARMv9 already? I didn't even know that it is running yet. So far it's been fine.. There may be issues with optimized crossbuilt worlds from i386... But I can boot multiuser mode, and it runs all the scripts and everything to come up... As I mentioned the ethernet is a bit flaky... For some reason, some packets have the underrun and carrier loss bit set on them.. This is the case on packets around 80 bytes in size (like reverse dns packets for 192.168.0.1, but not 192.168.0.10), and may be a timing issue that I'm not familar with... But nfs root boots fine... I do plan on figuring it out... USB doesn't work yet, it does probe, but causes issues.. and even though they say it's USB 2.0, it's only for electrical... No ehci controler.. the USB controller is ohci, and so only supports up to full speed usb (12Mb/s)... Also, this work isn't directly sponsored by TS, so it doesn't have any drivers for their other boards, like the RTC, serial or lcd + keypad parts that NetBSD does... The real reason why I'm using the TS-7200 is because it had on board AC'97 and I2S support (they aren't exposed to headers so I plan on soldering my own wires to the chip)... Which soekris definately doesn't have... :) dmesg from my last boot is at: http://people.freebsd.org/~jmg/dmesg.ts7200 As you can see, no RTC.. :) 18 Mar 15:36:25 ntpdate[241]: step time server 192.168.0.30 offset 188933.058709 sec -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 02:33:48PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 23:06 +0200: On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 11:12:05AM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 12:36 +0200: But considered the small price distance to the smallest Soekris, which runs FreeBSD, only the size and supply power is an interesting point. Or you can look at the TS-7200 from http://www.embeddedarm.com/ . It's smaller than a Soekris, and is slightly larger than the PC-104 form factor.. Right now I have it netbooting, but I need to figure out why I have some ethernet issues... The code is in p4, though if people are really interested, I can generate a patch... It costs more then the Soekris 4526-20 and is only slightly smaller in size. plus has dual mini-pci.. while the TS-7200 only has PC-104 (basicly ISA).. Both have their pro's. PC-104 ist definitively cheaper to add custom hardware to, but also slower. And the 4526 doesn't need regulated power plus has onboard ata flash. also looks like it supports PoE, which the TS-7200 doesn't... Right now I'm using a breadboarded LM7805 for power, but I am going to build a daughter card for this project, and so I'm going to throw a switching power supply on it.. so the regulated requirement isn't such a big deal.. also, it doesn't need as much power either.. TS says only 1 AMP at 5V is necessary... I haven't measured it yet though... 1A is a lot to handle with a linar regulator, but this may include power to additional hardware - e.g. USB ports. But this is still an interesting board after all - especially as it has USB ports and lot of GPIO, which I need sometimes. USB on Soekris require add-on hardware our pricier boards. How stable is FreeBSD on ARMv9 already? I didn't even know that it is running yet. So far it's been fine.. There may be issues with optimized crossbuilt worlds from i386... But I can boot multiuser mode, and it runs all the scripts and everything to come up... That's great. As I mentioned the ethernet is a bit flaky... For some reason, some packets have the underrun and carrier loss bit set on them.. This is the case on packets around 80 bytes in size (like reverse dns packets for 192.168.0.1, but not 192.168.0.10), and may be a timing issue that I'm not familar with... But nfs root boots fine... Well that's just a bug with lot of hope to get fixed. I do plan on figuring it out... USB doesn't work yet, it does probe, but causes issues.. and even though they say it's USB 2.0, it's only for electrical... No ehci controler.. the USB controller is ohci, and so only supports up to full speed usb (12Mb/s)... I personally use USB on such systems for attaching custom hardware. Full speed is fine for that. Since you say it's OHCI there is hope and I know you are familar with USB host controllers. It's OK to claim a full/low speed only device beeing USB 2.0. High speed isn't mandandory for 2.0. Also, this work isn't directly sponsored by TS, so it doesn't have any drivers for their other boards, like the RTC, serial or lcd + keypad parts that NetBSD does... At least the documentation is good - and between the lines I read that NetBSD support the board too. The real reason why I'm using the TS-7200 is because it had on board AC'97 and I2S support (they aren't exposed to headers so I plan on soldering my own wires to the chip)... Which soekris definately doesn't have... :) The Soekris CPUs have lots of features that arn't wired. But it's hopeless since the CPUs are BGA. dmesg from my last boot is at: http://people.freebsd.org/~jmg/dmesg.ts7200 I don't know where to put it performancewise to x86 systems. Does it feel slow on ssh? e.g. how long does it take to log in? As you can see, no RTC.. :) 18 Mar 15:36:25 ntpdate[241]: step time server 192.168.0.30 offset 188933.058709 sec A matter of time :) -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
Bernd Walter wrote this message on Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 00:54 +0200: On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 02:33:48PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Bernd Walter wrote this message on Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 23:06 +0200: And the 4526 doesn't need regulated power plus has onboard ata flash. also looks like it supports PoE, which the TS-7200 doesn't... Right now I'm using a breadboarded LM7805 for power, but I am going to build a daughter card for this project, and so I'm going to throw a switching power supply on it.. so the regulated requirement isn't such a big deal.. also, it doesn't need as much power either.. TS says only 1 AMP at 5V is necessary... I haven't measured it yet though... 1A is a lot to handle with a linar regulator, but this may include power to additional hardware - e.g. USB ports. Yeh, I haven't measured it, and was looking at doing that, but it'll be over a week before I can get more useful power requirements... But this is still an interesting board after all - especially as it has USB ports and lot of GPIO, which I need sometimes. USB on Soekris require add-on hardware our pricier boards. How stable is FreeBSD on ARMv9 already? I didn't even know that it is running yet. So far it's been fine.. There may be issues with optimized crossbuilt worlds from i386... But I can boot multiuser mode, and it runs all the scripts and everything to come up... That's great. As I mentioned the ethernet is a bit flaky... For some reason, some packets have the underrun and carrier loss bit set on them.. This is the case on packets around 80 bytes in size (like reverse dns packets for 192.168.0.1, but not 192.168.0.10), and may be a timing issue that I'm not familar with... But nfs root boots fine... Well that's just a bug with lot of hope to get fixed. I do plan on figuring it out... USB doesn't work yet, it does probe, but causes issues.. and even though they say it's USB 2.0, it's only for electrical... No ehci controler.. the USB controller is ohci, and so only supports up to full speed usb (12Mb/s)... I personally use USB on such systems for attaching custom hardware. Full speed is fine for that. Since you say it's OHCI there is hope and I know you are familar with USB host controllers. :) hehe, I think I still have the OHCI specs.. It sees the hub, but hangs when I plug a device in It's OK to claim a full/low speed only device beeing USB 2.0. High speed isn't mandandory for 2.0. Also, this work isn't directly sponsored by TS, so it doesn't have any drivers for their other boards, like the RTC, serial or lcd + keypad parts that NetBSD does... At least the documentation is good - and between the lines I read that NetBSD support the board too. Well, there isn't much documentation, but the support people have been helpful so far, but I haven't pinged them about the USB or ethernet issues yet... It doesn't help when NetBSD defines it one way in the headers (incorrectly), but then uses hard coded values in the source which are correct, and never uses the defines in the headers... The real reason why I'm using the TS-7200 is because it had on board AC'97 and I2S support (they aren't exposed to headers so I plan on soldering my own wires to the chip)... Which soekris definately doesn't have... :) The Soekris CPUs have lots of features that arn't wired. But it's hopeless since the CPUs are BGA. I haven't looked at the specs for the chips that Soekris uses, but as you mention, BGA's can't just have a wired layed done on the pin.. :) dmesg from my last boot is at: http://people.freebsd.org/~jmg/dmesg.ts7200 I don't know where to put it performancewise to x86 systems. Does it feel slow on ssh? e.g. how long does it take to log in? I haven't ssh'd in yet (since reverse is broken on 192.168.0.? addresses), but it did seem to take a minute or more to create the host dsa key... I'll let you know this evening.. As you can see, no RTC.. :) 18 Mar 15:36:25 ntpdate[241]: step time server 192.168.0.30 offset 188933.058709 sec A matter of time :) If I by the board.. :) It is somewhat anoying that the board doesn't include an RTC on board... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
Wilko Bulte wrote: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html It's an AMR7, which is pretty minimal. I'm not sure if the existing ARM code has any considerations for scaling that low. Would be a very interesting project, though. Scott ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
Wilko Bulte wrote: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html Netsilicon's NS7520 is ARM7TDMI based processor and no MMU. That would not be a good choice for running FreeBSD :-) Kevin ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
So, who makes this one run FreeBSD? ;-)
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS8386088053.html -- Wilko Bulte [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
