Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
In reply: On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Michael Bacarella wrote: I love the idea myself, but I have no power over FreeBSD :( You may not like the shape of the world, but I don't think getting publicly nasty about it is going to have any positive effect. It WILL have a negative effect, as FreeBSD would gather the reputation of very vindictive; it's even very likely that, somewhere along that road, a lawsuit over some wording would arise. I call it consumer education. Include call logs in such a list, let the public decide if a honest effort was made to contact such companies for information before being put on such a list. Such call logs can also speak for themselves, maybe add a column to the list for number of times people are told "We only support Windows". Nothing at all vindictive about it, in fact, an open invitation can be posted to be forthcoming with information needed to create drivers, we can point out the fact that there are millions of us, and it's just that much more profit for them. Where people see just cause for a boycott, they tend to support it, thus any action taken against any such list [with documentation on why they are on the list], will gain more people on our side. We can even add a second list of those who open up after being put on the list, proving that we aren't vindictive or nasty, and that all we seek is the info it takes to create drivers with the same functionality as the windows driver which they both wrote and supply. It isn't as if we are asking them to hire support staffs just for FreeBSD. Don't read in things that are not being said, Chuck. Nobody mentioned getting nasty or vindictive, all I saw was a good educational proposal, that would educate the general public about a problem. A lawsuit over such would only make whoever brings it look bad. You just can't get what you want all the time. If you don't do what it takes to get something, you surely won't get a thing. The boycott is a time-tested technique of getting what it is one wants, especially from corporations. Unless you convince the owner of a corporation that his wallet COULD get lighter, or the shareholders the idea of lower returns, you won't get the time of day out of them. Which water fountain do you drink from? Oh wait, that doesn't matter anymore, some people got off their butts and changed things for the better back in the 50's and 60's, without getting nasty or vindictive, when in fact they had every right to come out shooting. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you| "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" -- KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] IC-706MkII - IC-T81A - HTX-202 - HTX-212 - HTX-404 - KPC3+ - PK-232MBX/DSP -- ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
In reply: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Karsten W. Rohrbach wrote: hm i mean, do the hardware people want their stuff supported or not? that's the main question some seem to choose the NOT. right, and that is their perogative ... you can't create a "blacklist" and publicize it, it makes us look bad, not them. What you can do is create a "recommended hardware", or "well supported hardware" list ... Don't show the negative, only show the positive ... promote those vendors that are open to FreeBSD, don't put down those that don't ... Translation: Be a good *BOY*, stay in your place. Read my last post, nothing has to be done negatively in posting a boycott list, in fact, it would be a highly positive experience. I would think that such corporations would be more than willing to open up after a little publicity. IMHO, I think the feds need to take a look at their Microsoft contracts. It's one thing to refuse to hire a support staff for anything other than windows, but totally different to not release information to create independantly supported drivers. The latter in the quantity of companies doing it could quite possibly fit the Fed Civil guidelines for proving conspiracy on say, restraint of trade. It doesn't take rocket science to know Microsoft is playing dirty and looking for new ways to maintain control. "Hi, I'm looking for programming information on the super-duper XYZ card so I can write a device driver for FreeBSD." "I'm sorry, we only support Windows." "I'm not looking for support, I support my own code." "I'm sorry, we only support Windows." "Is this the correct department to ask?" "Yes. I'm sorry, we only support Windows." Yeah, we all know the story, like I said, it ain't rocket science. If Morley Safer got that on the phone, he'd have a camera crew out there the very next day to ask it again in person. We get this every day of the week. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you| "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" -- KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] IC-706MkII - IC-T81A - HTX-202 - HTX-212 - HTX-404 - KPC3+ - PK-232MBX/DSP -- ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
Jim Bryant wrote: Don't show the negative, only show the positive ... promote those vendors that are open to FreeBSD, don't put down those that don't ... Translation: Be a good *BOY*, stay in your place. Well you're certainly acting like a boy, so if the shoe fits... Read my last post, nothing has to be done negatively in posting a boycott list, in fact, it would be a highly positive experience. I would think that such corporations would be more than willing to open up after a little publicity. What you're failing to understand here is that there is nothing about this approach that could be positive. You're arguing from your imagination with people who deal with real live hardware vendors as part of their day to day experience, and are in fact making progress with bringing freebsd into greater acceptance. Once again, this thread is inappropriate for -hackers. Please take it to -advocacy where it belongs. -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
"Karsten W. Rohrbach" wrote: hm i mean, do the hardware people want their stuff supported or not? that's the main question some seem to choose the NOT. And that is their choice. YOU can certainly create and maintain a list of hardware vendors who have been uncooperative in helping with FreeBSD, if you wish to do that. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
ok guys, here's just a little idea on how to get the hardware manufacturer guys a little bit more responsive (in fact, i got somehow "inspired" by the alsa sound project guys because they got something similar)... let's put up a list of hardware manufacturers that do not answer our mails, that do not hear our pleas for driver development, that simply do not react. then we might publish a link to this thing on the freebsd.org homepage and write some cutey little press release on that to zdnet and daemonnews and other news sites. maybe we got some more responsiveness then. i'm tired of write lots of emails just to get some details or techspecs of chipsets and pieces of peripheral hardware sounding like "i am tiny, you are big, please gimme documentation and dont sue me for using it". jordan: how far did you come with the idea of having some legal stuff running over the .org when it comes to nda crap? you told us that you would investigate the possibilites of having nda's signed by officials from freebsd inc., since this would also be a strong point for getting more explicit hardware docu... okay, kill me with your discussion thread! i would have some nice database interface up and running for the blacklist stuff in about one week (cebit is putting quite a sysload on me)... /k -- May the source be with you! http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de (NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
hm i mean, do the hardware people want their stuff supported or not? that's the main question some seem to choose the NOT. /k Chuck Robey([EMAIL PROTECTED])@Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 11:44:42PM -0500: On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Michael Bacarella wrote: I love the idea myself, but I have no power over FreeBSD :( You may not like the shape of the world, but I don't think getting publicly nasty about it is going to have any positive effect. It WILL have a negative effect, as FreeBSD would gather the reputation of very vindictive; it's even very likely that, somewhere along that road, a lawsuit over some wording would arise. You just can't get what you want all the time. Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. -- Experiments must be reproducible; they should all fail in the same way. http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de (NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
okay, thats a good point
let's concentrate on the good things in life ;-)
i mean, with all that yamaha crap i had going on the last weeks i am
really demotivated... they should be a little more open minded...
apparently, we got no contact i this company and so they wont have their
hardware supported - tough luck...
(and i dont have any audio on my laptop)
/k
The Hermit Hacker([EMAIL PROTECTED])@Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:22:17AM -0400:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Karsten W. Rohrbach wrote:
hm
i mean, do the hardware people want their stuff supported or not? that's
the main question
some seem to choose the NOT.
right, and that is their perogative ... you can't create a "blacklist" and
publicize it, it makes us look bad, not them. What you can do is create a
"recommended hardware", or "well supported hardware" list ...
Don't show the negative, only show the positive ... promote those vendors
that are open to FreeBSD, don't put down those that don't ...
/k
Chuck Robey([EMAIL PROTECTED])@Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 11:44:42PM -0500:
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Michael Bacarella wrote:
I love the idea myself, but I have no power over FreeBSD :(
You may not like the shape of the world, but I don't think getting
publicly nasty about it is going to have any positive effect. It WILL
have a negative effect, as FreeBSD would gather the reputation of very
vindictive; it's even very likely that, somewhere along that road, a
lawsuit over some wording would arise.
You just can't get what you want all the time.
Chuck Robey| Interests include C Java programming, FreeBSD,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | electronics, communications, and signal processing.
New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up
fictitious words in the dictionary.
--
Experiments must be reproducible; they should all fail in the same way.
http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de
(NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE)
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Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
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die rechtschreibreform macht spas!
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Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
"Karsten W. Rohrbach" wrote: ok guys, here's just a little idea on how to get the hardware manufacturer guys a little bit more responsive Please direct this to -advocacy, thanks. Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: idea: official hardware manufacturer blacklist - let's wake em up!
In reply: ok guys, here's just a little idea on how to get the hardware manufacturer guys a little bit more responsive (in fact, i got somehow "inspired" by the alsa sound project guys because they got something similar)... let's put up a list of hardware manufacturers that do not answer our mails, that do not hear our pleas for driver development, that simply do not react. then we might publish a link to this thing on the freebsd.org Why not? One or two people calling a week doesn't attract that much attention within these companies. Maybe a list of manufacturers dealing exclusively with Gates would. I have some to add if this ever comes to pass. If we can make this a joint FreeBSD/Linux list, we can get even more media attention to this issue, this would be a good truce issue with the linux folks. We all know by now how MickeySoft does it's vendor deals, it's been well publicised, and it doesn't take rocket science to guess that they are playing dirty. Making such a list could open things up back to the old days when anyone could obtain register-level programming info on any card they wanted to. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you| "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" -- KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] IC-706MkII - IC-T81A - HTX-202 - HTX-212 - HTX-404 - KPC3+ - PK-232MBX/DSP -- ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
