Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-10 Thread Julian H. Stacey
Doug Barton wrote:
> On 04/09/2012 15:21, Da Rock wrote:
> > To stick my nose where it probably doesn't belong: indeed. This is one
> > area where linux annoys the most for that very reason.
> > 
> > Let the user decide and bear the responsibility.
> 
> If you want to put up a server with all the encumbered software and let
> people download it, go right ahead. Meanwhile, the project has chosen
> (wisely) not to run the risk of legal entanglements.
> 
> .. not to mention the common courtesy of following the wishes of those
> who created the software in the first place.

Also not to mention the uncommon dis-courtesy of someone publishing code free
to the world, gaining users, then retracting code [to go commercial].

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-10 Thread Julian H. Stacey
Hi,
Mark Linimon wrote:
> On 9 April 2012 17:49, Julian H. Stacey  wrote:
> >> portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
> >  
> > 
> >
> > Irresponsible.  Real 'Managers' shoulder responsibility.  So ...
> 
> Real managers get paid.
> 
> Real managers get paid by companies.
> 
> Real managers get paid by companies with legal departments who will
> defend them from frivolous lawsuits, and pay them during the period
> of time while the frivolous lawsuit works its way through the US court
> system.
> 
> I have given thousands of hours of free work to this project.  I'm
> damned sure not going to incur any legal liability on top of that,
> even if due to someone wanting to take an unreasonable position.

OK


> Perhaps the legal system in Germany is less broken than the US.  I
> certainly hope so.

I believe Britain (& maybe Germany) have a lower percentage of lawyers than USA.


> But until you sit in my seat, and have been threatened with lawsuits
> in the past for equally unreasonable situations, you simply don't
> know what you're talking about.

"Been there, Done that, Got the T shirt" ;-)

  I've been personaly legaly threatened even just managing a company's
  law suit against a Canadian debtor.

Learnt: Their game: intimidation, their message:
"Our lawyer is richer than your lawyer"

  I've sued (& won) for debt:
Learnt: Even trivial law cases can take Years. 

  I've helped head a club with events with risk to life,

Learnt: Insurance!  Have you enquired for FreeBSD if the
Foundation could afford insurance for key named central
staff ?  It's something companies that donate might relate
to, & if added to Foundation web, might attract extra donations.

  I've helped run a club that left volunteers in office too long till
  they felt the club owed them, some got fractious & some burnt out.

Learnt: That's why boards of directors have compulsory
resignation by rotation.  (with option to stand for re-election)


The name 'Manager' asserts both authority & responsibility.
As portsmgr can't take decisions with risk of responsibility, ...

Change portmgr@ to match reality,  (port-adm@ maybe ?).

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-10 Thread Julian H. Stacey
Boris Samorodov wrote:
> On 10.04.2012 16:34, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> 
> > Maintainer of mail/imaptools (Boris) is welcome to add me to a list of 
> > witnesses:
> 
> Thanks for your help but there is no need at the particular case.
> The port was fixed yesterday and the distfile is at FreeBSD distfile
> server.

OK, thanks.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-10 Thread Boris Samorodov

On 10.04.2012 16:34, Julian H. Stacey wrote:


Maintainer of mail/imaptools (Boris) is welcome to add me to a list of 
witnesses:


Thanks for your help but there is no need at the particular case.
The port was fixed yesterday and the distfile is at FreeBSD distfile
server.

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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-10 Thread Julian H. Stacey
Hi Chris,
> I understand your viewpoint, but given the horrible experiences
> certain people had on this kind of thing (you were around then, too),
> I think that the 'make a fork and port that instead' is perfectly
> reasonable.  At least then the software has a maintainer.
> 
> Chris

OK, if people will repack rather than loosing; though creating
replacement ports wrappers with new names will be hastle not only
for freebsd.org, but also for FreeBSD users who may have their
own overlay trees of eg ports/*/Makefile.local  with SUBDIR+= a port.
(hastle of variant SUBDIR += needing to be maintained for different
uname -r bases for various local hosts).

When a generic author causes trouble, trying to unpublish published
sources, I suggest FreeBSD insures itself against more trouble
by adding a list of people prepared to witness they saw the
published sources with attached licence, at which URL, on what date.

Witnesses need not be users of a port, nor programmers (so a wider pool).  
If some witnesses are non users of a port, it may be seen as more independent.

Maintainer of mail/imaptools (Boris) is welcome to add me to a list of 
witnesses:
Distfile:\
SIZE:\
MD5:\
URL:\
WITNESS:\
CONTACT:\
DATE

imap_tools_V1.135.tar.gz:\
108952:\
a7c34141b7512bff69f6ea86952c83bb:\

http://ftp7.freebsd.org/sites/ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/distfiles/%5Bpage=123%5D
 \
-> \

http://ftp7.freebsd.org/sites/ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/distfiles/imap_tools_V1.135.tar.gz\
Julian H. Stacey:\
http://berklix.com/~jhs/contact/:\
Tue Apr 10 14:30:17 CEST 2012

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-10 Thread Julian H. Stacey
Mikhail Tsatsenko wrote:
> On 08.04.2012 05:25, Mark Linimon wrote:
> > portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
> > If someone wants to fork the last free release and host it somewhere, I
> > would be less concerned in that case.
> >
> > mcl
> I'd like to create a fork, but I didn't find last distfile anywhere. 
> Author removed it from his website and ftp.FreeBSD.org hosts only 
> previous version 1.133.
> Does anybody have 1.135 distfile?

http://ftp2.uk.freebsd.org/sites/ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/%5Bpage=123%5D

I just downloaded a copy for security as its a mirror
108952 bytes
MD5 (imap_tools_V1.135.tar.gz) = a7c34141b7512bff69f6ea86952c83bb
& I will private mail you a copy.

Cheers,
Julian
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Doug Barton
I think it's great that you have thoughts and ideas about this topic.
Feel free to put them into practice.

Meanwhile, the FreeBSD project has different thoughts and ideas about
this topic, and is overwhelmingly unlikely to change them.

So, time to move on.

Doug

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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Da Rock

On 04/10/12 08:30, Doug Barton wrote:

On 04/09/2012 15:21, Da Rock wrote:

To stick my nose where it probably doesn't belong: indeed. This is one
area where linux annoys the most for that very reason.

Let the user decide and bear the responsibility.

If you want to put up a server with all the encumbered software and let
people download it, go right ahead. Meanwhile, the project has chosen
(wisely) not to run the risk of legal entanglements.

... not to mention the common courtesy of following the wishes of those
who created the software in the first place.


Part of the beauty of FreeBSD is ports, so that the user downloads from 
the source (or somewhere appropriate) and _not_ the project's servers. 
The only possible area for the 'entanglement' is the fact the framework 
lists where to download from.


As for the wishes of the author... plain english is plain english- when 
you relinquish a right you can't un-relinquish it (if that is actually a 
word). Even the legal system has trouble (or simply cannot do it) with 
putting the cat back in the bag, unbolting the horse, etc, when there is 
a legal right to do so; to say nothing about this case.

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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Doug Barton
On 04/09/2012 15:21, Da Rock wrote:
> To stick my nose where it probably doesn't belong: indeed. This is one
> area where linux annoys the most for that very reason.
> 
> Let the user decide and bear the responsibility.

If you want to put up a server with all the encumbered software and let
people download it, go right ahead. Meanwhile, the project has chosen
(wisely) not to run the risk of legal entanglements.

... not to mention the common courtesy of following the wishes of those
who created the software in the first place.

Doug

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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Da Rock

On 04/10/12 03:49, Julian H. Stacey wrote:

From:   Chris Rees

Well, whatever he says, he can't revoke the license of what's already
been distributed.


# Copyright (c) 2008 Rick Sanders   #
#  #
# Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any#
# purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above   #
# copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.#

...

Exactly !



From: Mark Linimon
portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.

 


Irresponsible.  Real 'Managers' shoulder responsibility.  So ...

In /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk, define a warning variable after
NO_CDROM, NO_PACKAGE, [ RESTRICTED_FILES ], with example:

   WARNING+="Generic author tried to retrospectively withdraw sources."
   #Maintainer suggest see files/...&  http://...

Allow individual ports Maintainers to indicate status of issues.
Allow individual installers to decide their Own take on issues, Not Yours !

- Ports wrappers belong to FreeBSD, not generic authors.
- Sources once published can't be unpublished.
   (IMO No need of a new project&  port name to excuse retention).
- Distfiles if not on freebsd.org site are not even our problem.

portmgr should retain respect by dumping a foolish policy.  sticking
to technical&  avoiding programmers guesses&  fears about laws, or
assumptions USA law controls global law or whatever else. Stay
technical.  The globe has 196 countries with their own legal
jurisdictions, individual installers should be able to make their
own decision on law&  risks&  morality as localy appropriate.
To stick my nose where it probably doesn't belong: indeed. This is one 
area where linux annoys the most for that very reason.


Let the user decide and bear the responsibility.
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Mark Linimon
On 9 April 2012 17:49, Julian H. Stacey  wrote:
>> portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
>  
>
> Irresponsible.  Real 'Managers' shoulder responsibility.  So ...

Real managers get paid.

Real managers get paid by companies.

Real managers get paid by companies with legal departments who will
defend them from frivolous lawsuits, and pay them during the period
of time while the frivolous lawsuit works its way through the US court
system.

I have given thousands of hours of free work to this project.  I'm
damned sure not going to incur any legal liability on top of that,
even if due to someone wanting to take an unreasonable position.

Perhaps the legal system in Germany is less broken than the US.  I
certainly hope so.

But until you sit in my seat, and have been threatened with lawsuits
in the past for equally unreasonable situations, you simply don't
know what you're talking about.

mcl
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Chris Rees
On 9 April 2012 17:49, Julian H. Stacey  wrote:
>> From:         Chris Rees 
>>
>> Well, whatever he says, he can't revoke the license of what's already
>> been distributed.
>>
>> 
>> # Copyright (c) 2008 Rick Sanders                   #
>> #                                                                          #
>> # Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any    #
>> # purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above   #
>> # copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.        #
>
> ...
>
> Exactly !
>
>
>> From: Mark Linimon 
>
>> portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
>  
>
>
> Irresponsible.  Real 'Managers' shoulder responsibility.  So ...
>
> In /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk, define a warning variable after
> NO_CDROM, NO_PACKAGE, [ RESTRICTED_FILES ], with example:
>
>  WARNING+="Generic author tried to retrospectively withdraw sources."
>  #     Maintainer suggest see files/... & http://...
>
> Allow individual ports Maintainers to indicate status of issues.
> Allow individual installers to decide their Own take on issues, Not Yours !
>
> - Ports wrappers belong to FreeBSD, not generic authors.
> - Sources once published can't be unpublished.
>  (IMO No need of a new project & port name to excuse retention).
> - Distfiles if not on freebsd.org site are not even our problem.
>
> portmgr should retain respect by dumping a foolish policy.  sticking
> to technical & avoiding programmers guesses & fears about laws, or
> assumptions USA law controls global law or whatever else. Stay
> technical.  The globe has 196 countries with their own legal
> jurisdictions, individual installers should be able to make their
> own decision on law & risks & morality as localy appropriate.

Hi Julian,

I understand your viewpoint, but given the horrible experiences
certain people had on this kind of thing (you were around then, too),
I think that the 'make a fork and port that instead' is perfectly
reasonable.  At least then the software has a maintainer.

Chris
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Julian H. Stacey
> From: Chris Rees  
> 
> Well, whatever he says, he can't revoke the license of what's already
> been distributed.
> 
> 
> # Copyright (c) 2008 Rick Sanders   #
> #  #
> # Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any#
> # purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above   #
> # copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.#

...

Exactly !


> From: Mark Linimon 

> portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
 


Irresponsible.  Real 'Managers' shoulder responsibility.  So ...

In /usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk, define a warning variable after
NO_CDROM, NO_PACKAGE, [ RESTRICTED_FILES ], with example:

  WARNING+="Generic author tried to retrospectively withdraw sources."
  # Maintainer suggest see files/... & http://...

Allow individual ports Maintainers to indicate status of issues.
Allow individual installers to decide their Own take on issues, Not Yours !

- Ports wrappers belong to FreeBSD, not generic authors.
- Sources once published can't be unpublished.
  (IMO No need of a new project & port name to excuse retention).
- Distfiles if not on freebsd.org site are not even our problem.

portmgr should retain respect by dumping a foolish policy.  sticking
to technical & avoiding programmers guesses & fears about laws, or
assumptions USA law controls global law or whatever else. Stay
technical.  The globe has 196 countries with their own legal
jurisdictions, individual installers should be able to make their
own decision on law & risks & morality as localy appropriate.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Chris Rees
On 9 April 2012 08:16, Mikhail Tsatsenko  wrote:
>> New port added, with minor changes.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Chris
> Thank you
> There is a PR 166757 which may be closed now.

Closed, thanks.

Chris
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Mikhail Tsatsenko
> New port added, with minor changes.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Chris
Thank you
There is a PR 166757 which may be closed now.

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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-09 Thread Chris Rees
On 8 April 2012 15:28, Mikhail Tsatsenko  wrote:
>> You might have luck with a Debian mirror, and there's always inurl:
>
> I have tried it already, but had no luck. Currently I created a fork
> of 1.133 version (named imaputils to avoid name collision with
> original software). Can anybody having ports commit bit import it in
> the ports tree, please.
> In case if somebody will provide most recent free version of imaptools
> I'll submit an update.
>

New port added, with minor changes.

Thanks!

Chris
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-08 Thread Mikhail Tsatsenko
> You might have luck with a Debian mirror, and there's always inurl:

I have tried it already, but had no luck. Currently I created a fork
of 1.133 version (named imaputils to avoid name collision with
original software). Can anybody having ports commit bit import it in
the ports tree, please.
In case if somebody will provide most recent free version of imaptools
I'll submit an update.

-- 
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-08 Thread Chris Rees
On 8 Apr 2012 14:51, "Mikhail Tsatsenko"  wrote:
>
> On 08.04.2012 05:25, Mark Linimon wrote:
>>
>> portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the
circumstances.
>> If someone wants to fork the last free release and host it somewhere, I
>> would be less concerned in that case.
>>
>> mcl
>
> I'd like to create a fork, but I didn't find last distfile anywhere.
Author removed it from his website and ftp.FreeBSD.org hosts only previous
version 1.133.
> Does anybody have 1.135 distfile?
>

You might have luck with a Debian mirror, and there's always inurl:
Googling.

Chris
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-08 Thread Mikhail Tsatsenko

On 08.04.2012 05:25, Mark Linimon wrote:

portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
If someone wants to fork the last free release and host it somewhere, I
would be less concerned in that case.

mcl
I'd like to create a fork, but I didn't find last distfile anywhere. 
Author removed it from his website and ftp.FreeBSD.org hosts only 
previous version 1.133.

Does anybody have 1.135 distfile?

--
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-08 Thread Boris Samorodov
08.04.2012 05:25, Mark Linimon пишет:

> portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
> If someone wants to fork the last free release and host it somewhere, I
> would be less concerned in that case.

Yes, It's just what I think:
As the maintainer of the port I should remove it under the author's
request. If someone create a fork then the port may be restored from
attick.

-- 
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FreeBSD Committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-07 Thread Mark Linimon
portmgr's policy is to honor removal requests, no matter the circumstances.
If someone wants to fork the last free release and host it somewhere, I
would be less concerned in that case.

mcl
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-07 Thread Jason Helfman
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Chris Rees  wrote:

> On 7 April 2012 19:58, Scot Hetzel  wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Boris Samorodov  wrote:
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> Beware (I've got an e-mail from the author):
> >>  1. This is (1.135) the last free version of imaptools.
> >>  2. The author's intention is to release a new version with a modest
> fee.
> >>  3. All users who already get a copy of the program
> >> may use it without restrictions.
> >>  4. Further redistribution of already released versions will be
> forbidden.
> >>  5. The port should be removed from the portstree.
> >>  6. The dead line is Monday April 9th.
> >>
> > Looks like the author has pulled the sources from his site and
> > replaced it with an archive that only contains 1 file.  That file says
> > that the tools are no longer free.
>
> Well, whatever he says, he can't revoke the license of what's already
> been distributed.
>
>
> 
> # Copyright (c) 2008 Rick Sanders 
>  #
> #
>  #
> # Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any
>  #
> # purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above
> #
> # copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.
>  #
> #
>  #
> # THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES
> #
> # WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
> #
> # MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR
>  #
> # ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES
> #
> # WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN
>  #
> # ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF
>  #
> # OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.
> #
>
> 
>
> Chris
>
>
Given this license, I don't see why it needs to be removed from the tree.
It can be distributed by the maintainer
via LOCAL MASTER_SITES, and it can still be maintained by contributions
from the community, in addition to
maintainer.

-jgh
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-07 Thread Chris Rees
On 7 April 2012 19:58, Scot Hetzel  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Boris Samorodov  wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Beware (I've got an e-mail from the author):
>>  1. This is (1.135) the last free version of imaptools.
>>  2. The author's intention is to release a new version with a modest fee.
>>  3. All users who already get a copy of the program
>>     may use it without restrictions.
>>  4. Further redistribution of already released versions will be forbidden.
>>  5. The port should be removed from the portstree.
>>  6. The dead line is Monday April 9th.
>>
> Looks like the author has pulled the sources from his site and
> replaced it with an archive that only contains 1 file.  That file says
> that the tools are no longer free.

Well, whatever he says, he can't revoke the license of what's already
been distributed.


# Copyright (c) 2008 Rick Sanders   #
#  #
# Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any#
# purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above   #
# copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies.#
#  #
# THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND THE AUTHOR DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES #
# WITH REGARD TO THIS SOFTWARE INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF #
# MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR  #
# ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES   #
# WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN#
# ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF  #
# OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE.   #


Chris
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Re: mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-07 Thread Scot Hetzel
On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Boris Samorodov  wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Beware (I've got an e-mail from the author):
>  1. This is (1.135) the last free version of imaptools.
>  2. The author's intention is to release a new version with a modest fee.
>  3. All users who already get a copy of the program
>     may use it without restrictions.
>  4. Further redistribution of already released versions will be forbidden.
>  5. The port should be removed from the portstree.
>  6. The dead line is Monday April 9th.
>
Looks like the author has pulled the sources from his site and
replaced it with an archive that only contains 1 file.  That file says
that the tools are no longer free.

Scot
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mail/imaptools: port removal at Monday April 9th

2012-04-07 Thread Boris Samorodov
Hi!

Beware (I've got an e-mail from the author):
  1. This is (1.135) the last free version of imaptools.
  2. The author's intention is to release a new version with a modest fee.
  3. All users who already get a copy of the program
 may use it without restrictions.
  4. Further redistribution of already released versions will be forbidden.
  5. The port should be removed from the portstree.
  6. The dead line is Monday April 9th.

-- 
WBR, Boris Samorodov (bsam)
FreeBSD Committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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