Re: A strategic question (continued)
On 2006-01-31 03:41, Jozef Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Many thanks to everyone who answered my previous e-mail about this subject on this list or by private e-mail. As some of you suggested, I have installed PC-BSD (http://www.pcbsd.com/). I am sure a Unix guru would not like to install FreeBSD in this way, as it doesn't offer many choices. But it is just wonderful for a Unix newbie like me. At the end of the installation, the GUI, the cable Internet connection, and even the sound system worked fine. Some configuration still needs to be done (printing and German keyboard). But now at least I have a system I can use right away to do some usefull work with, and to further explore. I will try to configure the printing myself before perhaps eventually asking some specific questions about it here. I found an interesting explanation about the configuration of the German keyboard, so if some other German speaking newbie asks about it: http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~eserte/FreeBSD/doc/umlaute/umlaute.html Giorgos Keramidas asked me: Can you explain *how* you configured your X11 desktop? Like explained in the handbook. First I created an xorg.conf.new configuration skeleton file with # Xorg -configure Then I tested this configuration with # Xorg -config xorg.conf.new The result was a Mode not supported message on the display screen until I found out the HorizSync and VertRefresh values to write in the Section Monitor which were supported, and which were much narrower than the hardware manufacturers specifications. That's probably a bug in the configuration file generated by Xorg and, quite possibly, a bug in the Handbook section. Most modern monitors and video adapters work without any HorizSync or VertRefresh line in `xorg.conf'. This forces the X11 servers to query the hardware for the supported refresh ranges, and I've found that it tends to be much easier to get things right this way :) The display adapter is an nVidia GeForce4 MX with integrated GPU (which uses 64 MB of the system's 512 MB physical working memory). The LCD monitor is a Proview 780. I'm using an ATI on the laptop used to type this message. The file /var/log/Xorg.0.log lists it as: ATI Technologies Inc RV350 [Mobility Radeon 9600 M10] The `xorg.conf' file has commented out entries for HorizSync and VertRefresh, but this doesn't keep things from working. Section Monitor Identifier Monitor0 # Uncomment if you don't want to default to DDC: #HorizSync31.5 - 79.0 #VertRefresh 50.0 - 70.0 EndSection You may find it easier to comment out these lines from xorg.conf, start X11 and then tune the best refresh ranges later, after you get things working fine :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
Xn Nooby wrote: If you want the freedom that FreeBSD offers, you have to make the journey to where it is at. IMHO, this sentence should be on the front page of http://www.freebsd.org/, right next to The Power To Serve :) -- ... (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nfluence with large hammer? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
Jozef Baum wrote: ... to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the problem. The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing gets installed. 1st: I don't think I have ever installed an unknown system and got it right the first time: OS/2, RedHat Linux, OpenBSD and FreeBSD. I have always installed the system, used it about a month and then reinstalled. So you install the system the best you can, then start learning your way around it and figure out what went wrong. First time, don't worry about things getting messed up, just don't throw it directly into production. You might find yourself reinstalling a few times, but that's just part of the game. 2nd: It's true that the FreeBSD developers have not gone out of their way to make a sleek installer, but unlike other OS's, the installer is something you'll hardly ever use. I installed my laptop with 5.2.1 two years ago, since then I have continuously upgraded everything and run 6.0 now, but I haven't used the installer at all. So, there is a catch, those who use the installer has yet to get the experience to make it better and those who know how just don't have that itch scratching. 3rd: If there is an error or something missing then you can file a problem report for the documentation and explain what you find missing. I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work correctly. One has to look with Google to find additional information about configuring a German keyboard. Getting keyboards right is a science and one of the most frequently asked questions. The thing is that you have to deal with both keyboard and character sets, and further some programs let the user change the keyboard for that program only: emacs, pine, thunderbird. While not particularly for german keyboard, there is an article about setting things up and you should be able to figure out the needed changes - heck the examples are for german! http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/euro/index.html The locate command did not work, as the locate database seemed to be corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database. An all system you need to build/rebuild the locate database regularly. The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh shell. I had to figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user and the other users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same person, me. There is one principle you should adhere to on any system: Let root keep default settings. This is challenging at first, but in critical situations an advantage. I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia Geforce video adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having configured at all my German keyboard. see the above article, it also have the part covering X11. I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't succeed. Returning to the post-installation tasks after having installed the system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working only after a system reboot). Well, this is where sometimes you install, gain some experience and reinstall. Anyway, there is no reason you have to get everything installed at install time. I have learned to prefer a lean system at install and then add stuff as needed. Otherwise I allways end up with lots of crap that I don't need. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? As another stated this: It seems you want the system to think your way - which more or less requires the developers to think your way. This is obviously unrealistic and unreasonable to require - but your luck is that unlike other operating systems, you can make FreeBSD behave as you like it. I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users? I don't think anyone makes things difficult on purpose. but as above statement, their brain might just not work like yours. Not better, nor worse, just different. And there is no avoding breakthrough to desktop - I have used FreeBSD on my desktop, laptop actually, for three years. Before that I used RedHat for 4
A strategic question (continued)
Many thanks to everyone who answered my previous e-mail about this subject on this list or by private e-mail. As some of you suggested, I have installed PC-BSD (http://www.pcbsd.com/). I am sure a Unix guru would not like to install FreeBSD in this way, as it doesn't offer many choices. But it is just wonderful for a Unix newbie like me. At the end of the installation, the GUI, the cable Internet connection, and even the sound system worked fine. Some configuration still needs to be done (printing and German keyboard). But now at least I have a system I can use right away to do some usefull work with, and to further explore. I will try to configure the printing myself before perhaps eventually asking some specific questions about it here. I found an interesting explanation about the configuration of the German keyboard, so if some other German speaking newbie asks about it: http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~eserte/FreeBSD/doc/umlaute/umlaute.html Giorgos Keramidas asked me: Can you explain *how* you configured your X11 desktop? Like explained in the handbook. First I created an xorg.conf.new configuration skeleton file with # Xorg -configure Then I tested this configuration with # Xorg -config xorg.conf.new The result was a Mode not supported message on the display screen until I found out the HorizSync and VertRefresh values to write in the Section Monitor which were supported, and which were much narrower than the hardware manufacturers specifications. The display adapter is an nVidia GeForce4 MX with integrated GPU (which uses 64 MB of the system's 512 MB physical working memory). The LCD monitor is a Proview 780. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question (continued)
On Jan 30, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Jozef Baum wrote: Many thanks to everyone who answered my previous e-mail about this subject on this list or by private e-mail. As some of you suggested, I have installed PC-BSD (http:// www.pcbsd.com/). I am sure a Unix guru would not like to install FreeBSD in this way, as it doesn't offer many choices. But it is just wonderful for a Unix newbie like me. At the end of the installation, the GUI, the cable Internet connection, and even the sound system worked fine. Some configuration still needs to be done (printing and German keyboard). But now at least I have a system I can use right away to do some usefull work with, and to further explore. I will try to configure the printing myself before perhaps eventually asking some specific questions about it here. I found an interesting explanation about the configuration of the German keyboard, so if some other German speaking newbie asks about it: http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~eserte/FreeBSD/doc/umlaute/umlaute.html Giorgos Keramidas asked me: Can you explain *how* you configured your X11 desktop? Like explained in the handbook. First I created an xorg.conf.new configuration skeleton file with # Xorg -configure Then I tested this configuration with # Xorg -config xorg.conf.new The result was a Mode not supported message on the display screen until I found out the HorizSync and VertRefresh values to write in the Section Monitor which were supported, and which were much narrower than the hardware manufacturers specifications. The display adapter is an nVidia GeForce4 MX with integrated GPU (which uses 64 MB of the system's 512 MB physical working memory). The LCD monitor is a Proview 780. You may have actually been limited by your video card in this respect. Given that it is a GeForce4, the options for resolution and scanlines and stuff may have been lower. I know that when I went from a GF4 to a GF6 my system's available resolution increased quite a bit. Too bad though that my monitor doesn't though... :(. Take care and hopefully this time around things will be better for you. -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
On 2006-01-28 03:16, Jozef Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This posting doesn't contain a technical question about FreeBSD, rather a strategic one. Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix environment, because I wanted to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient environment for developing and running programs, [...] That's a reasonable expectation. I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation about it, then installed Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD implementations of UNIX, Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating system. I'll agree to this. Mostly. But see below for what a `professional' system expects from you, as the installer person future administrator of the system. It seems to be1 a very advanced operating system. There is some advanced stuff in almost all the operating systems in use today. I'm not sure I understand what strikes you as 'advanced' in Solaris that does not have an equivalently 'advanced' technolody in FreeBSD. However, I soon realized that, when one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the Queen Mary II, just as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a cup of coffee. The same can be said for almost any operating system today -- except, perhaps, for the crap of Redmond, which is still riddled with trojans, viruses and countless lock-in tricks designed explicitly to *stop* the administrator and the users from doing their work, until they pay a hefty amount to company X for their special Y software. I don't really see why this is true for Solaris, but untrue for BSD. [Linux rant] I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more homogeneous quality development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD and CD 1 and 2, and installed it on my PC, following the handbook. So, does it? Hvae you used FreeBSD long enough to see this homogeneous design of things clearly? I had been using Linux for more than 5 years before I started with FreeBSD. About the same time that the diversity many differences of all the Linux distributions out there had started to get on my nerves, FreeBSD looked like a very good alternative. It still does :) In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the problem. No you don't. This is what the documentation is all about. You claim that you have read the documentation (i.e. the Handbook) before installing. I am not suggesting that you didn't, but if you did find things missing, have you tried asking here about anything that seemed confusing? Have you posted anything to the freebsd-doc list stating that you'd like the installation chapter to also explain Foo and Bar? The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing gets installed. Depending on what you select to install, this may or may not be necessary. To give you meaningful help advice about the install process, we would need a detailed list of the steps you took during installation. If you go back and keep notes, I and as am sure many others from this list, will help you get through the obstacles of the installation. After all, it's something you're only going to do a few times at most :) I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work correctly. One has to look with Google to find additional information about configuring a German keyboard. That's ok. The good thing about having access to the source code is that you can *make* these modifications to the system itself. If you have improvements about the keyboard layouts, we can arrange to bring you in contact with the right persons, who can then commit your changes to the official tree and improve German layout for everyone. That would be extremely cool :))) I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was recognized, but getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider was impossible. Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the firewall to get an IP-addres with my provider's DHCP. The Handbook explains how firewalls work. The new firewalls chapter even has an explicit example of a rule that allows DHCP access for one of the most popular FreeBSD firewalls: # Allow out access to my ISP's DHCP server for cable or DSL networks. # This rule is not needed for 'user ppp' type connection to the # public Internet, so you can delete this whole group. # Use the following rule and check log for IP address. # Then put IP address in commented out rule amp; delete first rule pass out log quick on dc0 proto udp from any to any port = 67 keep state #pass out quick on dc0 proto udp from any to z.z.z.z port = 67 keep state I'm sure you missed this one, but it's ok. Asking here
Re: A strategic question
I have had a lot of frustration in learning Unix, but I stick to it because I know it is the last OS I will ever need to learn. Unix doesn't change, so the effort you put in to learning it will never be wasted. If you stick with commerical OS's, they are going to drag you through every release of their OS - as that is how they get you to give them your money. If you can master Unix, you will never have to purchase software again, and will rarely need to upgrade hardware. You will be free of nag-ware, spy-ware, entering license codes, etc. You will never be a software pirate or fear an audit. If you want to simplify things, try this. Install FreeBSD without a GUI, and use it for 1 month. When you remove all the fluff, you will be left with the core system. You will be forced to learn the fundamentals, and in a simplistic environtment. So many variables will removed from the equation, that the math will be very simple. Once you are proficient using the shell, enviroment, you can add a GUI, like Fluxbox, KDE, or GNOME. You will have deep a understanding of how they work because you will already know the fundamentals. You can also do a lot from a shell-enviroment. You can rip/burn/play cd's, browse the web, word-process, email, newsgroups, program, etc. You will also be able to do all those things *remotely*. As far as I know, the people that work on FreeBSD work on it to suit *their* needs. As a user, it might suck that they don't have to please you - but there is also nothing preventing you from becoming a developer. Not having to answer to anyone cuts both ways, the developers are not controlled by any commercial interest or non-commercial interest. It's very likely that being popular is not as important as developing something they find useful for themselves. If you want the freedom that FreeBSD offers, you have to make the journey to where it is at. If it turns out FreeBSD is not for you, there is still good news. The more experience you have with the different Linux and BSD distros, the more free you become. All these system are based on the same fundamentals. Everything you learn will be useful forever. If you want software to be Free, you can always pirate Windows apps. If *you* want to be Free, you are going to have learn how the Free systems work. I have tried many linux and BSD distros. FWIW, FreeBSD is generally regarded as one-notch above all the Linux distros. Even before I tried FreeBSD, I had heard it was the best in a number of ways, but also the hardest to learn. Most linux users seemed to think of the FreeBSD crowd as older, better trained, and more disciplined - and that the software reflected this. I have basically found this to be true. People use to tell me that the FreeBSD lists were extremely unfriendly, and I have found that to be completely untrue. Usually if you show you made an attempt to figure something out, and ask in the generally correct way, people really try to help you. I think the more focused lists expect more focused questions, but that is understandable. Ironically the linux forums are where I have seen most of the OMG RTFM NOOB! type comments. Well, I could go and on. One thing I'd really want you to consider is that the goal is - to free yourself. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
Hello Jozef, Saturday, January 28, 2006, 5:16:04 AM, you wrote: JB I wonder how people JB with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download the SP2 for Windows JB XP. I can buy pirate dvd with win2k + winXP sp2 corporate + winXP sp3 for $3 =) JB I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more homogeneous quality JB development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD and CD 1 and 2, and JB installed it on my PC, following the handbook. As i know, CD2 is Live-cd. Not for install, but for repare. JB I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge people, so it will never JB perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But my disappointment JB with FreeBSD was great. FreeBSD not desktop system! It's for servers. For desktop try Gentoo of pcbsd. JB In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the JB system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed JB system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of JB knowledge about the system. That's the problem. IMHO, you need someone for newbies. As ISBN 0-672-32206-4 (FreeBSD from Brian Tiemann and Michael C. Urban) (in english. Maybe you need do to shop and look someone else in german). JB The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have JB to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing JB gets installed. You need boot from CD1 and install. And, handbook is stupid. You need good book, not handbook. JB I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was recognized, but JB getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider was impossible. You need setup your net from sysinstall Or man ifconfig JB Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the firewall to get an JB IP-addres with my provider's DHCP. As default, no firewalls enabled JB The locate command did not work, as the locate database seemed to be JB corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database. After install you can run /etc/periodic/weekly/310.locate JB The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh shell. I had to JB figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user and the other JB users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same person, me. zsh much better For change shell for user try chsh JB Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate JB correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into JB code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an JB installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? Because FreeBSD not for novice... But good books can help you. JB imagine that people capable of developing such a complex operating system as JB Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy install procedure. But JB probably, that's not their concern. Install procedure correct and easy. Except X =) But X on server -- bad idea. -- Best regards, Playnetmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
http://www.pcbsd.org/ worked out of the box with my NVidia card ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A strategic question
, binaries, docs and X window system. Then test that I can log in as root and user, then go back into the install to get the applications I want. I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now comes the strategic question. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? I too found that the installation process takes some know-how. But it is getting better. Years ago as a newbie my first attempts to install (FreeBSD 4.x) took several tries to get it right. To get a workstation up quickly, I found Greg Lehey's book (The Complete FreeBSD, 4th ed.) a super resource. I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users? I remember when learning how to ride a bicycle seemed deliberately difficult. But once you learn,. From what I understand, there is a group concentrating on making FreeBSD easier for beginners. It may well be worth a look if you haven't tried it: http://www.pcbsd.com/ Best regards, Byron - WA4GEG ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
On 1/28/2006 at 3:16 AM Jozef Baum wrote: | [lots of stuff deleted] = Use what you're comfortable with, no one is forcing you to use FreeBSD. I, as a FreeBSD newbie, was able to find FreeBSD quite useful on the desktop. Your mileage may vary. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A strategic question
This posting doesn't contain a technical question about FreeBSD, rather a strategic one. Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix environment, because I wanted to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient environment for developing and running programs, no longer having to buy a new PC with a new OS and applications software every 3 years to support Bill Gates' only goal (becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At the end of the 20th century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade from Win 95 to Win 95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to remain with a poor OS. Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it takes me more time to download and install the SP2 than to install Windows XP. I wonder how people with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download the SP2 for Windows XP. I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation about it, then installed Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD implementations of UNIX, Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating system. It seems to be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon realized that, when one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the Queen Mary II, just as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a cup of coffee. Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best Linux distributions, Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got locked up by something so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the heterogeneous quality of Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's arrogance, I decided to abandon Linux. I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more homogeneous quality development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD and CD 1 and 2, and installed it on my PC, following the handbook. I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge people, so it will never perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But my disappointment with FreeBSD was great. In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the problem. The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing gets installed. I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work correctly. One has to look with Google to find additional information about configuring a German keyboard. I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was recognized, but getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider was impossible. Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the firewall to get an IP-addres with my provider's DHCP. The locate command did not work, as the locate database seemed to be corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database. The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh shell. I had to figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user and the other users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same person, me. I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia Geforce video adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having configured at all my German keyboard. I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't succeed. Returning to the post-installation tasks after having installed the system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working only after a system reboot). I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now comes the strategic question. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users? I knew the installation, configuration and optimization of a Unix system would take me a lot of time and patience. But after some weeks, the only result, as probably for many others, is an immense frustration. I cannot imagine that people capable of developing such a complex operating system as Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy install procedure. But probably, that's not their concern. Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to become not only a server OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going the wrong way by annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn Unix, the real Unix
Re: A strategic question
(nVidia Geforce video adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having configured at all my German keyboard. I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't succeed. Returning to the post-installation tasks after having installed the system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working only after a system reboot). I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now comes the strategic question. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users? I knew the installation, configuration and optimization of a Unix system would take me a lot of time and patience. But after some weeks, the only result, as probably for many others, is an immense frustration. I cannot imagine that people capable of developing such a complex operating system as Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy install procedure. But probably, that's not their concern. Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to become not only a server OS, but also a desktop OS, realize that you are going the wrong way by annoying newcomers with a puzzle. I want to learn Unix, the real Unix. Searching a text file for a string with grep, not launching a tremendous memory hungry application under X Window to do so. I want to learn how to pipe Unix commands to get usefull work done. I want to learn the ed line editor as a starting point for using sed. But please, don't frustrate me from the beginning by making the installation of FreeBSD so difficult. Drop some whistles and bells on which you are working, and encounter the newbie. Many thanks in advance for your comments. A frustrated FreeBSD newbie ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
--- Jozef Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip a lot of blabbing] I want to learn the ed line editor... What about vi, huh? __ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
--On January 28, 2006 3:16:04 AM +0100 Jozef Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This posting doesn't contain a technical question about FreeBSD, rather a strategic one. You need to try Gentoo. Seriously, though, did you follow the install document? I came from where you are - Windows - Unix. In Windows, you throw the documentation in the trash and double click on setup.exe. Click on Next, Next, Next, Are you Sure?, Next, Next, Finish. Unix requires you to *prepare* before you install, by actually reading the docs. That will require a change of habits (although I still do things the Windows way when I'm working in Windows.) Read the docs first. Then try installing. You'll be much happier. Here's the Handbook - http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ That should be your bible. The first chapter is Installing FreeBSD. Read it. Print it out. Follow it closely. You won't be sorry. Oh, and learn vi. Almost every Unix system comes with vi by default but *not* some of the other editors people like to use (like pico or emacs.) Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
On 1/27/06, Jozef Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want If you want it, make it, pray for it, or pay someone to do it. I'll admit to having stumbled through the install dozens of times, still learning. Every day I learn something. But the point of calling it a hobbyist operating system is to say that it is written and designed by those who use it. A more professional operating system would be one written by people who have no idea what the end user could or can do, just code monkeys pushing keys. The perfect operating system would be written by people who cannot or will not (or should not) use computers. The perfect operating system makes bread and rides a bicycle and knows which end of a cigar to point at a president. -- -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A strategic question
On Jan 27, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Jozef Baum wrote: This posting doesn't contain a technical question about FreeBSD, rather a strategic one. Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix environment, because I wanted to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient environment for developing and running programs, no longer having to buy a new PC with a new OS and applications software every 3 years to support Bill Gates' only goal (becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At the end of the 20th century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade from Win 95 to Win 95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to remain with a poor OS. Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it takes me more time to download and install the SP2 than to install Windows XP. I wonder how people with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download the SP2 for Windows XP. I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation about it, then installed Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD implementations of UNIX, Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating system. It seems to be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon realized that, when one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the Queen Mary II, just as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a cup of coffee. Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best Linux distributions, Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got locked up by something so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the heterogeneous quality of Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's arrogance, I decided to abandon Linux. I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more homogeneous quality development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD and CD 1 and 2, and installed it on my PC, following the handbook. I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge people, so it will never perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But my disappointment with FreeBSD was great. In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the problem. The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing gets installed. I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work correctly. One has to look with Google to find additional information about configuring a German keyboard. I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was recognized, but getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider was impossible. Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the firewall to get an IP-addres with my provider's DHCP. The locate command did not work, as the locate database seemed to be corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database. The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh shell. I had to figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user and the other users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same person, me. I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia Geforce video adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having configured at all my German keyboard. I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't succeed. Returning to the post-installation tasks after having installed the system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working only after a system reboot). I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now comes the strategic question. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users? I knew the installation, configuration and optimization of a Unix system would take me a lot of time and patience. But after some weeks, the only result, as probably for many others, is an immense frustration. I cannot imagine that people capable of developing such a complex operating system as Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy install procedure. But probably, that's not their concern. Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to become
Re: A strategic question
On Jan 27, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Jozef Baum wrote: This posting doesn't contain a technical question about FreeBSD, rather a strategic one. Some time ago, I wanted to migrate to a Unix environment, because I wanted to have a secure, stable, convenient and efficient environment for developing and running programs, no longer having to buy a new PC with a new OS and applications software every 3 years to support Bill Gates' only goal (becoming and remaining the richest man of the USA). At the end of the 20th century, it took us only a few years to have to upgrade from Win 95 to Win 95SE, to Win 98, to Win 98SE, and to Win ME, only to remain with a poor OS. Now, when reinstalling my version of Windows XP, it takes me more time to download and install the SP2 than to install Windows XP. I wonder how people with a low-bandwidth Internet connection do to download the SP2 for Windows XP. I downloaded Solaris 10 and a lot of documentation about it, then installed Solaris 10. As opposed to Linux and free BSD implementations of UNIX, Solaris looks like a professionally developed operating system. It seems to be1 a very advanced operating system. However, I soon realized that, when one wants a yacht, it is not a good idea to acquire the Queen Mary II, just as it costs too much time to acquire a hotel to have a cup of coffee. Then I downloaded what I thought being one of the best Linux distributions, Suse Linux. I tried to install it, but the system got locked up by something so stupid as my nVidia modem. Together with the heterogeneous quality of Linux components, and not at all liking Linus Torvald's arrogance, I decided to abandon Linux. I came to FreeBSD, with the idea that it had a more homogeneous quality development model, downloaded the FreeBSD 6.0 boot CD and CD 1 and 2, and installed it on my PC, following the handbook. I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge people, so it will never perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But my disappointment with FreeBSD was great. In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the problem. The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing gets installed. I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work correctly. One has to look with Google to find additional information about configuring a German keyboard. I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was recognized, but getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider was impossible. Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the firewall to get an IP-addres with my provider's DHCP. The locate command did not work, as the locate database seemed to be corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database. The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh shell. I had to figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user and the other users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same person, me. I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia Geforce video adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having configured at all my German keyboard. I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't succeed. Returning to the post-installation tasks after having installed the system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working only after a system reboot). I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now comes the strategic question. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really the policy of those guys to make the entry level to UNIX difficult, only to avoid a breakthrough of UNIX (FreeBSD) to the desktop users? I knew the installation, configuration and optimization of a Unix system would take me a lot of time and patience. But after some weeks, the only result, as probably for many others, is an immense frustration. I cannot imagine that people capable of developing such a complex operating system as Unix are unable to offer newcomers a correct and easy install procedure. But probably, that's not their concern. Please, guys, if you want FreeBSD to survive and to become
Re: A strategic question
On Friday 27 January 2006 06:16 pm, Jozef Baum wrote: This posting doesn't contain a technical question about FreeBSD, rather a strategic one. I did my first time ever install of FreeBSD 1 week ago. My background is M$ from DOS 2.something till XP. About 2 months ago I tried my first Linux (Ubuntu). I knew UNIX is a toolkit intended to IT knowledge people, so it will never perform a breakthrough to the average desktop user. But my disappointment with FreeBSD was great. In fact, to install FreeBSD, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. To acquire that knowledge, one needs experience on an installed system. But to have an installed system, one needs already a lot of knowledge about the system. That's the problem. That you are frustrated I empathize with, to have expectations and place blame I don't. I don't think it's fair to attribute the problem to something that is your problem. There's nothing wrong with expressing that something is not the way you would like it, however, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems that your tone is that things are not the way they should be and the people that have spent an incomprehensible amount of knowledge, time and experience are at fault, rather than you are frustrated at the learning curve, time and energy to achieve your goals. The handbook doesn't tell you that, at the last chance message, you have to take out the boot CD and to insert CD 1. But if you don't do so, nothing gets installed. I had the exact same occurrence during my install. I did think it was amazing that such depth of knowledge and experience on the inside had such a superficial flaw. But I kind of laughed at the juxtaposition. Kind of like how I'm charmed by Einsteins' messy hair. I configured a German ISO keyboard, but many keys don't work correctly. One has to look with Google to find additional information about configuring a German keyboard. I find that Google is a prerequisite tool for any in depth (and not so in depth) computer work. It seems like you're complaining that to make a painting you had to use a paintbrush. I have a cable Internet connection and my network card was recognized, but getting an IP-address with the DHCP service of my provider was impossible. Again, I had to look up with Google how to allow the firewall to get an IP-addres with my provider's DHCP. I think it was Newton who said something like with Google you stand on the shoulders of giants. The locate command did not work, as the locate database seemed to be corrupted. I had to figure out how to rebuild this database. I had the exact same experience, except I figured it hadn't been initialized yet. (I guess I'm lucky because I knew about locate and updatedb from my short Linux experience. It was installed to run automatically and within 5 minutes of starting my computer the disk would grind away. It drove me nuts, and it took a bit of Googling to find out about top and then to see what was causing it and then finally get it under my own manual control.) The root user had a csh, while ordinary users had a sh shell. I had to figure out how to provide the same shell to the root user and the other users, as all those virtual users are all one and the same person, me. I was bugged by the same thing too. I posted about it on the newsgroup where several people replied that it's good to be used to that shell because in case of emergency that's the only shell that's going to be available. I figured I'll just deal with it for now. I tried to setup an X Window environment (nVidia Geforce video adapter), but the horizontal and vertical refresh rates of the manufacturer didn't work, I had to experiment to find out the one X likes. Then I could startup X, only to not having configured at all my German keyboard. We are both having very similar obstacles. I had to come up with a crazy mode line to get my wide screen monitor to work right, we are talking many hours. But now I have 1680x1050 resolution, hardware 3D and that OpenGL screensaver Euphoria working. That alone is enough beauty and feeling of accomplishment to keep me going for the next challenge. I tried to install emacs during installation, but it didn't succeed. Returning to the post-installation tasks after having installed the system resulted in a successfull installation of emacs (working only after a system reboot). Yay! I could go on for hours with this kind of troubles. But now comes the strategic question. Why is it that FreeBSD people, who seem to be perfectly able to formulate correct algorithms for implementing UNIX concepts, and translating them into code, don't care at all about a novice user, providing him with an installation program that doesn't work as it should, even without a GUI? I know UNIX is all about solving problems, but is it really interesting to make it apparently deliberatly so difficult for a newcomer? Is it really
