Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Ted Mittelstaedt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050107 17:37]: David Gerard Ted Mittelstaedt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050106 06:29]: It's of course quite legal for end users to download the JDK directly from Sun and compile it on FreeBSD themselves and then use it. The main problem with this approach is that it requires a ridiculous amount of jumping through hoops - first you have to install the Linux compatibility interface and libraries (20 megabyte download and a reboot?), Are you sure your not talking about the BINARY distributions? I was referring the the source here: http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/java2/download.html Only the Java Cryptography Extension is unavailable as source. More info is of course available on the FreeBSD Java mailing list. I'm talking about installing from ports, which goes and compiles all three things (Linux compatibility, Linux Java, FreeBSD Java), I thought. - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Only the Java Cryptography Extension is unavailable as source. More info is of course available on the FreeBSD Java mailing list. So why would anyone trust it? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Thu, Jan 06, 2005 at 02:53:18AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Tom Vilot writes: TV I prefer to use just about any other tool (except, of course, for TV JSP/.NET, etc). Python, Perl, ... any other tool will do the jobs I TV need done and I can avoid the sluggishness of Java, the licensing TV ambiguities, and the dependence on a company that is *not* a TV software company to begin with! I tend to agree. Are people still using Java? Perl seems to do just about everything. Most companies I'm working for (freelancing) are currently migrating their java legacy stuff to Python, Zope, Plone etc... (sometimes transitioning through Jython). So you may have a point here ;) Anthony Cheers, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Ted Mittelstaedt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050106 06:29]: It's of course quite legal for end users to download the JDK directly from Sun and compile it on FreeBSD themselves and then use it. The main problem with this approach is that it requires a ridiculous amount of jumping through hoops - first you have to install the Linux compatibility interface and libraries (20 megabyte download and a reboot?), *then* the Linux version of Java (large download) because that's needed to run Sun conformance tests (you can only use Java to test Java), *then* the FreeBSD version. Assuming nothing breaks anywhere in the process. It's ridiculous hair-tearing stuff and led me to formulate: Proprietary software isn't just evil, it's STUPID. (The Linux-compat bit wasn't such a strain for me personally, as my FreeBSD boxes are workstations and I run things like Firefox Linux nightly builds routinely. But for a server doing little other than Java, it's a large amount of cruft to no functional purpose.) - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Anthony Atkielski ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050106 12:53]: Tom Vilot writes: TV I prefer to use just about any other tool (except, of course, for TV JSP/.NET, etc). Python, Perl, ... any other tool will do the jobs I TV need done and I can avoid the sluggishness of Java, the licensing TV ambiguities, and the dependence on a company that is *not* a TV software company to begin with! I tend to agree. Are people still using Java? Perl seems to do just about everything. Commercially, yes - particularly for in-house apps, not anything distributed outside. My job is adminning Solaris and Red Hat boxes which are basically running an in-house platform with a pile of custom apps on top, both written in Java. Java's gratis-proprietary license is certainly good enough for our purposes businesswise, and it's cross-platform enough that we've had very little trouble sliding Solaris out from underneath and replacing it with Red Hat (HPaq servers offering a bit more bang for the buck). But you won't see much open-source Java until the license isn't odious. OpenOffice.org only uses it because of Sun. - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Dick Davies writes: DD The phrase 'Java is the COBOL of the nineties' springs to mind At least COBOL served a useful purpose (and still does). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On 2005-01-06 21:05, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dick Davies writes: DD The phrase 'Java is the COBOL of the nineties' springs to mind At least COBOL served a useful purpose (and still does). I probably dislike Java more than you do, but I also find it hard to believe that the implied uselessness of Java is true for all people who are Java programmers :-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Gerard Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 4:35 AM To: Paul Krill; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java Ted Mittelstaedt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050106 06:29]: It's of course quite legal for end users to download the JDK directly from Sun and compile it on FreeBSD themselves and then use it. The main problem with this approach is that it requires a ridiculous amount of jumping through hoops - first you have to install the Linux compatibility interface and libraries (20 megabyte download and a reboot?), Are you sure your not talking about the BINARY distributions? I was referring the the source here: http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/java2/download.html Only the Java Cryptography Extension is unavailable as source. More info is of course available on the FreeBSD Java mailing list. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:01:22 -0800, Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? What information? This post is very lacking in details. What is it? If you're the poster, what's your point? Why -questions? If it's just something I don't get, please clue me in. -- Joshua Lokken Open Source Advocate ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 10:53:07AM -0800, Paul Krill wrote: This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Try talking to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - this is the organisation who has been dealing with sun and sponsoring the freebsd java development. Kris pgpiIQoljbal5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 01:05:03PM -0600, Joshua Lokken wrote: On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:01:22 -0800, Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? What information? This post is very lacking in details. What is it? If you're the poster, what's your point? Why -questions? If it's just something I don't get, please clue me in. http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/press/20041221-newsletter.shtml Kris pgpTH2Djh8XtZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? http://www.javalobby.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=16511 http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/press/20041221-newsletter.shtml It seems pretty clear that Paul is attempting to do some sort of story on this. Why here? Well.. -questions would seem be a general place to .. ask questions? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Do you have any contact information as to who I would speak to at FreeBSDfoundation? Thanks. Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 11:08 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 10:53:07AM -0800, Paul Krill wrote: This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Try talking to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - this is the organisation who has been dealing with sun and sponsoring the freebsd java development. Kris attqjpqb.dat Description: Binary data ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
I am a writer with Infoworld magazine and would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding these issues with Sun, for a possible story. I will be contacting Sun as well. Here are some links I am following up on here: http://www.javalobby.org/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=16511tstart=0 http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/press/20041221-newsletter.shtml (scroll down to Java Update) Joshua Lokken [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 11:05 AM Please respond to Joshua Lokken To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:01:22 -0800, Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? What information? This post is very lacking in details. What is it? If you're the poster, what's your point? Why -questions? If it's just something I don't get, please clue me in. -- Joshua Lokken Open Source Advocate ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 11:13:06AM -0800, Paul Krill wrote: Do you have any contact information as to who I would speak to at FreeBSDfoundation? Thanks. Whoever responds to your mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] :-) Putting on my telepathy beanie, it could be Robert Watson. Kris pgpa33d6trPNs.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Hi Paul, Hey, good luck to you! The basic root of the problem as I understand it is that Sun license for the JDK 1.3 originally prevented redistribution of the JDK with the FreeBSD which is something that the Project wanted to be able to do for obvious reasons. As a result the FreeBSD Foundation worked with Sun to make some modifications to the Sun license to allow this, as a result the JDK 1.3 can now be redistributed. Unfortunately with the newer JDKs Sun once again changed the licensing terms and the original people at Sun who came up to speed to understand the issues are no longer there, and there's a new set of people there in charge of this who are more busy with bigger fish to fry. It's of course quite legal for end users to download the JDK directly from Sun and compile it on FreeBSD themselves and then use it. There's no shortage of development time available to get the newer JDK's working on the latest FreeBSD versions and many people have already done so. The problem is in the licensing issues. If you puruse the Sun website the licensing terms are quite vague on Java as it is and half of them don't reconcile with public statements that various Sun officials have made at one time or another. I think there is a story there for you but more along the lines of: Sun's wishy-washy licensing terms driving people away from Java along with a story about how it pretty much takes a tema of expert lawyers to figure out if a business is in compliance with Sun's terms or not - and even then you don't know if Sun is going to come after you for royalty payments or not at some point in the future. Just try reading the many Sun licenses for Java off their website and try to imagine where a typical high tech company would fall in and you will see what I mean. Ted Mittelstaedt Author: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide. Addison-Wesley, 2000. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Krill Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:14 AM To: Joshua Lokken Cc: Jorn Argelo; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java I am a writer with Infoworld magazine and would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding these issues with Sun, for a possible story. I will be contacting Sun as well. Here are some links I am following up on here: http://www.javalobby.org/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=16511tstart=0 http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/press/20041221-newsletter.shtml (scroll down to Java Update) Joshua Lokken [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 11:05 AM Please respond to Joshua Lokken To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:01:22 -0800, Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? What information? This post is very lacking in details. What is it? If you're the poster, what's your point? Why -questions? If it's just something I don't get, please clue me in. -- Joshua Lokken Open Source Advocate ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Thank you very much for your help. I had some follow-up questions. * For background, FreeBSD wants to distribute the JDK with the FreeBSD OS? FreeBSD's implementation of specific Java technologies? Both? * Which version of the JDK has FreeBSD been prevented from redistributing? Are there cost issues involved? * Please state your specific affiliation with FreeBSD. Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 11:29 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Lokken [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject:RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java Hi Paul, Hey, good luck to you! The basic root of the problem as I understand it is that Sun license for the JDK 1.3 originally prevented redistribution of the JDK with the FreeBSD which is something that the Project wanted to be able to do for obvious reasons. As a result the FreeBSD Foundation worked with Sun to make some modifications to the Sun license to allow this, as a result the JDK 1.3 can now be redistributed. Unfortunately with the newer JDKs Sun once again changed the licensing terms and the original people at Sun who came up to speed to understand the issues are no longer there, and there's a new set of people there in charge of this who are more busy with bigger fish to fry. It's of course quite legal for end users to download the JDK directly from Sun and compile it on FreeBSD themselves and then use it. There's no shortage of development time available to get the newer JDK's working on the latest FreeBSD versions and many people have already done so. The problem is in the licensing issues. If you puruse the Sun website the licensing terms are quite vague on Java as it is and half of them don't reconcile with public statements that various Sun officials have made at one time or another. I think there is a story there for you but more along the lines of: Sun's wishy-washy licensing terms driving people away from Java along with a story about how it pretty much takes a tema of expert lawyers to figure out if a business is in compliance with Sun's terms or not - and even then you don't know if Sun is going to come after you for royalty payments or not at some point in the future. Just try reading the many Sun licenses for Java off their website and try to imagine where a typical high tech company would fall in and you will see what I mean. Ted Mittelstaedt Author: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide. Addison-Wesley, 2000. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Krill Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:14 AM To: Joshua Lokken Cc: Jorn Argelo; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java I am a writer with Infoworld magazine and would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding these issues with Sun, for a possible story. I will be contacting Sun as well. Here are some links I am following up on here: http://www.javalobby.org/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=16511tstart=0 http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/press/20041221-newsletter.shtml (scroll down to Java Update) Joshua Lokken [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 11:05 AM Please respond to Joshua Lokken To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:01:22 -0800, Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? What information? This post is very lacking in details. What is it? If you're the poster, what's your point? Why -questions? If it's just something I don't get, please clue me in. -- Joshua Lokken Open Source Advocate ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On 01/05/05 11:21 AM, Kris Kennaway sat at the `puter and typed: On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 11:13:06AM -0800, Paul Krill wrote: Do you have any contact information as to who I would speak to at FreeBSDfoundation? Thanks. Whoever responds to your mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] :-) Putting on my telepathy beanie, it could be Robert Watson. Jeez! I've been looking for one of those beanies! The homemade tinfoil style just doesn't seem to work on my boss. Do you have the one with or without the propeller? You have a link I can buy one from? :D -- Louis LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) http://www.keyslapper.org ԿԬ philosophy: Unintelligible answers to insoluble problems. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:08:44 -0800, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 01:05:03PM -0600, Joshua Lokken wrote: On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:01:22 -0800, Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was doing some browsing on the Web, looking for something else, and bumped into this. It seems like a lot of people already know. Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 10:59 AM To: Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:53:07 -0800, Paul Krill wrote This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. Where did you get this information? What information? This post is very lacking in details. What is it? If you're the poster, what's your point? Why -questions? If it's just something I don't get, please clue me in. http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/press/20041221-newsletter.shtml Thank you. -- Joshua Lokken Open Source Advocate ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: I think there is a story there for you but more along the lines of: Sun's wishy-washy licensing terms driving people away from Java Agreed. Sun has screwed up the licensing of Java from the start. Their deal with Microsoft early on made that clear to me. I prefer to use just about any other tool (except, of course, for JSP/.NET, etc). Python, Perl, ... any other tool will do the jobs I need done and I can avoid the sluggishness of Java, the licensing ambiguities, and the dependence on a company that is *not* a software company to begin with! G.. Please state your specific affiliation with FreeBSD. None. Just a user. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Tom, Have you tried any of the alternative implementations of Java? Sun's isn't the only one out there. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom Vilot Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: I think there is a story there for you but more along the lines of: Sun's wishy-washy licensing terms driving people away from Java Agreed. Sun has screwed up the licensing of Java from the start. Their deal with Microsoft early on made that clear to me. I prefer to use just about any other tool (except, of course, for JSP/.NET, etc). Python, Perl, ... any other tool will do the jobs I need done and I can avoid the sluggishness of Java, the licensing ambiguities, and the dependence on a company that is *not* a software company to begin with! G.. Please state your specific affiliation with FreeBSD. None. Just a user. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Tom, Have you tried any of the alternative implementations of Java? Sun's isn't the only one out there. I have. I'm sorry, I am mostly venting my frustration with Java as a language, Sun as a company, and J2EE as a hugely bloated and over-architected solution in dire need of a problem. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
In a message dated 1/5/05 1:53:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is Paul Krill of Infoworld magazine. I would like to speak with someone at FreeBSD regarding issues with Sun. I am at 415-978-3228 or email me with a number where I can call you. Thanks. --- So some application that runs like crap won't run on FreeBSD anymore. Big deal. Someone should start designing the new java-free logo. Seems like a big selling point to me. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Hi Paul, I'm going to top-post here since you used html formatting and it's hard to insert into that. As for the FreeBSD distribution of the JDK, if you go to the link here: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/downloads/java.shtml You will see that the organization The FreeBSD Foundation is currently distributing the 1.3 JRE and JDK. They would like to stop doing this and just see these included on the FreeBSD release CD's, or see Sun distributing them off Sun's Java download pages. The only costs involved I'm aware of were incurred in dealing with Sun to get the license fixed so that the FreeBSD Foundation could distribute it. And the Foundation bore those costs. Now, as for my affiliation, the short answer is that the FreeBSD Project is organized in such a fashion as there's really only 2 classes of affiliation - either a committer which means you can directly modify the source code (subject to an organized set of procedures) or a user, which can't. I'm not currently a committer so my affiliation is as a user. But I think what your really looking for is an official spokesman. And I have to tell you that such doesen't exist. Here's the long answer: The FreeBSD Foundation isn't exactly an official spokesman of the FreeBSD Project because in reality there really isn't any official spokesman of the FreeBSD Project. However they are the closest thing that the Project has to an official spokesman. Years ago the FreeBSD Project had a more centralized organization with a President who acted in that capacity. The Project got rid of that because since it's not an incorporated entity but merely a loose organization of volunteers, that person had no legal standing to negotiate contracts - and since that person wasn't elected from the entire FreeBSD userbase, the only reason they had any spokesman capacity at all is that the general userbase was contented with the way things were. So if your looking for quotes for the article, your going to have to attribute any user quotes to that person's resume, you can for example attribute any quote from me as Ted Mittelstaedt, system administrator for Internet Partners Inc. (that is the ISP I work at) or you can attribute to my book authorship instead which is already in the prior post. Most other people on this mailing list (for that is what you have e-mailed to) have their own attributions. But, technically nobody speaks for The FreeBSD Project. The FreeBSD Foundation is as close as your going to get to a single point of contact. Linux is the same way, quotes are either attributed to the distributors, like Red Hat company, or to Linux Torvalds who is supposedly the single kernel maintainer. To get opinions from the people actually doing the work to make the Java port work on FreeBSD, you will want to e-mail the following mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I look forward to seeing your article in Infoworld! Ted -Original Message- From: Paul Krill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:38 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jorn Argelo; Joshua Lokken Subject: RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java Thank you very much for your help. I had some follow-up questions. * For background, FreeBSD wants to distribute the JDK with the FreeBSD OS? FreeBSD's implementation of specific Java technologies? Both? * Which version of the JDK has FreeBSD been prevented from redistributing? Are there cost issues involved? * Please state your specific affiliation with FreeBSD. Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/05/2005 11:29 AM To:Paul Krill [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joshua Lokken [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:Jorn Argelo [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject:RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java Hi Paul, Hey, good luck to you! The basic root of the problem as I understand it is that Sun license for the JDK 1.3 originally prevented redistribution of the JDK with the FreeBSD which is something that the Project wanted to be able to do for obvious reasons. As a result the FreeBSD Foundation worked with Sun to make some modifications to the Sun license to allow this, as a result the JDK 1.3 can now be redistributed. Unfortunately with the newer JDKs Sun once again changed the licensing terms and the original people at Sun who came up to speed to understand the issues are no longer there, and there's a new set of people there in charge of this who are more busy with bigger fish to fry. It's of course quite legal for end users to download the JDK directly from Sun and compile it on FreeBSD themselves and then use it. There's no shortage of development time available to get the newer JDK's working on the latest FreeBSD versions and many people have already done so. The problem is in the licensing issues. If you puruse
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
On Wed, Jan 05, 2005 at 01:00:47PM -0700, Tom Vilot wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Tom, Have you tried any of the alternative implementations of Java? Sun's isn't the only one out there. I have. I'm sorry, I am mostly venting my frustration with Java as a language, Sun as a company, and J2EE as a hugely bloated and over-architected solution in dire need of a problem. (Yup!) --I've been wanting to ask about kaffee [ if this is a Java clone ], and any other. C was the first quantum leap, OS- and application-wise. We have many alternatives to the Dennis Ritchie orginal, so it would seem possible to follow another course for things-java. Hopefully. So, without hijacking this thread *too* far, what other Open src projects will run Java-applets and so on?? gary PS: This might work well in the article... . -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public service Unix ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Tom Vilot writes: TV I prefer to use just about any other tool (except, of course, for TV JSP/.NET, etc). Python, Perl, ... any other tool will do the jobs I TV need done and I can avoid the sluggishness of Java, the licensing TV ambiguities, and the dependence on a company that is *not* a TV software company to begin with! I tend to agree. Are people still using Java? Perl seems to do just about everything. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
Anthony Atkielski wrote: I tend to agree. Are people still using Java? Yeah, I think so . strange as it seems to me. Perl seems to do just about everything. Agreed. OTOH, Perl is quite idiomatic, and that can be a real hurdle. Plus, there are so *many* ways to do things in Perl, that it can be easy to write what another programmer would consider opaque, impenetrable code. Python seems to be a nice intermediary. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:53 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java Tom Vilot writes: TV I prefer to use just about any other tool (except, of course, for TV JSP/.NET, etc). Python, Perl, ... any other tool will do the jobs I TV need done and I can avoid the sluggishness of Java, the licensing TV ambiguities, and the dependence on a company that is *not* a TV software company to begin with! I tend to agree. Are people still using Java? Keep in mind that Sun's main Java push was into micro-code for embedded devices, that is why Java was written in the first place. It is only later that they got the idea to play in the PC realm - whereupon they ran up against Microsoft, sparks flew, and Sun got a whole lot of publicity. This is common with companies that Microsoft announces that they hate. ;-) Today there's a lot of commercial software development interest in Java. We don't see this much in Open Source because people tend to use tools on the Open Source side that make sense for the job they are doing. On the corporate side of the house, people sometimes are forced to use tools that some salesmanager or CEO has decided need to be used, and if they don't like that their jobs are outsourced to India. Sun is big and has a lot of money and if your a company that announces you have a Java software item you can get some of that marketing muscle to spill over and help you push your product. If FreeBSD can get a current binary JRE distributed then it helps out those companies that use FreeBSD that have applications like that which they are attempting to sell, without bothering the rest of us who aren't in this boat. In this case why not make friends with them when it costs you nothing? Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
* Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0157 06:57]: Tom Vilot writes: I tend to agree. Are people still using Java? Keep in mind that Sun's main Java push was into micro-code for embedded devices, that is why Java was written in the first place. And somehow this mutated into J2EE :D . On the corporate side of the house, people sometimes are forced to use tools that some salesmanager or CEO has decided need to be used, and if they don't like that their jobs are outsourced to India. The phrase 'Java is the COBOL of the nineties' springs to mind If FreeBSD can get a current binary JRE distributed then it helps out those companies that use FreeBSD that have applications like that which they are attempting to sell, without bothering the rest of us who aren't in this boat. In this case why not make friends with them when it costs you nothing? I don't think it does cost the Foundation nothing, that's the trouble. You spend years jumping through hoops to get the certification (the only benefit of which is it pleases the managers) and then they turn round and make you do it again. With this attitude it's hardly suprising they piss some people off (especially when the product you're doing all this for is pretty second rate when compared to python or ruby imo)... -- 'Yeah, well I'm gonna build my own themepark! With blackjack aaand Hookers! Actually, forget the park. And the blackjack.' -- Bender Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dick Davies Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:12 PM To: FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java If FreeBSD can get a current binary JRE distributed then it helps out those companies that use FreeBSD that have applications like that which they are attempting to sell, without bothering the rest of us who aren't in this boat. In this case why not make friends with them when it costs you nothing? I don't think it does cost the Foundation nothing, that's the trouble. You spend years jumping through hoops to get the certification (the only benefit of which is it pleases the managers) and then they turn round and make you do it again. Hmm - sounds like what Microsoft does. With this attitude it's hardly suprising they piss some people off (especially when the product you're doing all this for is pretty second rate when compared to python or ruby imo)... Name of the game with commercialized technology which is filled with example after of example of second and 3rd rater products that win the market from 1st rater products merely because their marketing is better. Let's see, in automotive we have lapshoulder belts vs 5 point harnesses, or for that matter airbags vs seatbelts, in television we have Betamax vs VHS, in computing we have Windows vs Mac, NT vs OS/2, Linux vs FreeBSD ... ;-) Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Sun revokes FreeBSD license for Java
* Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [0125 07:25]: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dick Davies I don't think it does cost the Foundation nothing, that's the trouble. You spend years jumping through hoops to get the certification (the only benefit of which is it pleases the managers) and then they turn round and make you do it again. Hmm - sounds like what Microsoft does. I've heard of them - don't they make lawsuits? -- 'Everybody's a jerk. You, me, this jerk.' -- Bender Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
