Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
Mel Flynn-2 wrote:
I remember running KDE3 with firefox-1 on a P-III 900 with 256MB, FBSD 4.x
and
window switching ('alt-tab') wasn't a joy, being in permanent swap.
Hello.
The key to running KDE3 with PIII is 512MB=RAM I think. With 768MB RAM and
1400...@1300mhz PIII I'm not using swap at all (stripped KDE3/7.2-STABLE).
I'm runnig opera-devel, firefox35 (fresh ports tree). If memory serves me
right,
PIII 750/1000Mhz wasn't that bad either. Also, with 512MB it was swapping a
little
only when compiling something heavy. OO.o could be not usable tho.
-best regards,
Jakub Lach
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Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
On Thursday 09 July 2009 07:07:19 Glen Barber wrote:
Hi, Chris
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Chriseaglet...@hughes.net wrote:
Sorry for the OT-ness of this. I only work with FreeBSD for servers.
Have used it as the sole systems for a business since the late 1900s.
Twice I've put up X-Windows machines but we never bothered to
use them for one reason or another. Now my son's school is short
computers for a High School HTML class I'm going to help teach
this fall. The official teacher is excited about FreeBSD since we can
use old equipment that is donated.
There are two issues. We will not get enough FreeBSD systems up
to cover all kids in the class. Some will have to use the 10.4/3 OS-X
G3s we already have. For the remainder of systems, I've told them
I need a minimum 256GB Ram, 500+Mhz, ~10GB hard drive. I will
put Apache on both types of boxes so they have a testing platform,
hope to put firefox on each so they have a consistent browser. The
confusing thing will be Finder and Textedit, versus whatever I use for
a window manager on the FreeBSD systems.
The two questions are:
1. Taking the specs into account, what is the window manager that
will provide the closest match to the Apple desktop for mouse ops,
browsing files/directories, and editing text files. I suppose I should
add running Firefox (or a reasonable similar browser that will
render HTML and execute Javascript identically).
Although I will probably be lit on fire for this, I'd have to say KDE3
would probably be the closest. There even is the baghira theme, which
mimics the OSX interface. I haven't used either in over a year or so,
however.
I remember running KDE3 with firefox-1 on a P-III 900 with 256MB, FBSD 4.x and
window switching ('alt-tab') wasn't a joy, being in permanent swap. On the
plus side, you could install Quanta, which is more geared to web development,
but in default mode is just a fancy text editor with a file tree on the left-
hand side of the canvas.
I would however, go with firefox2, which is sufficient for your classes and
firefox3 will have too much bloat. Opera-9.x is also something you should
seriously consider, although part of it's speed comes from using memory
aggressively so the 256MB might come into play. It's my primary browser at the
moment and I have so far only reported 1 site that is unusable and I'm not
sure it was Opera's fault to begin with (in case you're interested:
http://www.newsagaya.com/ - hover the shop button).
I also had apache running (+ mysqld + php), all for local development. The key
is to strip down anything fancy you don't need in the GUI and apache modules.
Additionally you could assign them an NFS directory and centralize apache on a
server. It is trivial to assign www.$studentname.$class.lan to the webserver
IP, mapping the vhost to the NFS directory. A bonus is that students would be
able to see each others' work and better understand the client-server model
that always comes into play with web development.
--
Mel
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Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
Hi, Chris
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Chriseaglet...@hughes.net wrote:
Sorry for the OT-ness of this. I only work with FreeBSD for servers.
Have used it as the sole systems for a business since the late 1900s.
Twice I've put up X-Windows machines but we never bothered to
use them for one reason or another. Now my son's school is short
computers for a High School HTML class I'm going to help teach
this fall. The official teacher is excited about FreeBSD since we can
use old equipment that is donated.
There are two issues. We will not get enough FreeBSD systems up
to cover all kids in the class. Some will have to use the 10.4/3 OS-X
G3s we already have. For the remainder of systems, I've told them
I need a minimum 256GB Ram, 500+Mhz, ~10GB hard drive. I will
put Apache on both types of boxes so they have a testing platform,
hope to put firefox on each so they have a consistent browser. The
confusing thing will be Finder and Textedit, versus whatever I use for
a window manager on the FreeBSD systems.
The two questions are:
1. Taking the specs into account, what is the window manager that
will provide the closest match to the Apple desktop for mouse ops,
browsing files/directories, and editing text files. I suppose I should
add running Firefox (or a reasonable similar browser that will
render HTML and execute Javascript identically).
Although I will probably be lit on fire for this, I'd have to say KDE3
would probably be the closest. There even is the baghira theme, which
mimics the OSX interface. I haven't used either in over a year or so,
however.
I don't mean cosmetically, just enough that there isn't too much
needing to teach a window manager. Finder is relatively invisible
from a teaching standpoint as is Textedit, Firefox is going to be
reasonably standard (this is going to teach HTML standards, not
how to use windowed drag and drop page generation products,
they will be using a text editor and working with raw HTML, CSS
and JavaScript). But what I don't want to be doing is having some
learning vi (even though if this were an advanced class, that is
precisely what I'd expect ;-)), while others are using textedit.
The course is HTML. Mouse button operations should be close,
a window that gives a simple file directory and a text editor that
doesn't require learning a character command set would be the
target.
You should begin teaching them Vi now. :)
2. Am I too lean on the specs for the free AMD/Intel boxes we
are requesting parents cough up?
Are you going to be building apache / xorg / ${YOUR_BROWSER} from
ports or installing packages? If from ports, this may be a bit
painful as it will take (seemingly) forever to build xorg, etc.
The district sadly is being forced to go to windows by the
state, and now only has these old antique Macs
Monopoly, anyone?
free and has no Intel/AMD boxes. These will all come from
parents of the program and leverage the fact that people
like to replace perfectly good boxes because of spyware on
windows. I personally still have boxes with less than 100GB
RAM and sub-500 mhz processors running 6.x (and I think 7.0)
but I use those as firewalls, I've never used a window manager
so perhaps my view of FreeBSDs efficiency is optimistic. Are
the specs too low for *some* X environment?
Constraint: I already broached the subject of putting FreeBSD
on the G3s using the PowerPC version. Unfortunately, the 6
Apples are used by another class on OS-X.
HTH
--
Glen Barber
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Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 07:58:21AM -0700, Chris wrote: - Sorry for the OT-ness of this. I only work with FreeBSD for servers. - Have used it as the sole systems for a business since the late 1900s. - Twice I've put up X-Windows machines but we never bothered to - use them for one reason or another. Now my son's school is short - computers for a High School HTML class I'm going to help teach - this fall. The official teacher is excited about FreeBSD since we can - use old equipment that is donated. - - There are two issues. We will not get enough FreeBSD systems up - to cover all kids in the class. Some will have to use the 10.4/3 OS-X - G3s we already have. For the remainder of systems, I've told them - I need a minimum 256GB Ram, 500+Mhz, ~10GB hard drive. I will - put Apache on both types of boxes so they have a testing platform, - hope to put firefox on each so they have a consistent browser. The - confusing thing will be Finder and Textedit, versus whatever I use for - a window manager on the FreeBSD systems. - - The two questions are: - - 1. Taking the specs into account, what is the window manager that - will provide the closest match to the Apple desktop for mouse ops, - browsing files/directories, and editing text files. I suppose I should - add running Firefox (or a reasonable similar browser that will - render HTML and execute Javascript identically). - - I don't mean cosmetically, just enough that there isn't too much - needing to teach a window manager. Finder is relatively invisible - from a teaching standpoint as is Textedit, Firefox is going to be - reasonably standard (this is going to teach HTML standards, not - how to use windowed drag and drop page generation products, - they will be using a text editor and working with raw HTML, CSS - and JavaScript). But what I don't want to be doing is having some - learning vi (even though if this were an advanced class, that is - precisely what I'd expect ;-)), while others are using textedit. - The course is HTML. Mouse button operations should be close, - a window that gives a simple file directory and a text editor that - doesn't require learning a character command set would be the - target. - - 2. Am I too lean on the specs for the free AMD/Intel boxes we - are requesting parents cough up? Well, I don't think that you need 256 GB of ram. Probably less than 1 GB, in fact maybe 256 MB will be plenty. 10 GB of hard disk might be a little tight, but if you aren't doing databases and making big permanent sites, but only just small teaching web pages, then you should get by. jerry - - The district sadly is being forced to go to windows by the - state, and now only has these old antique Macs - free and has no Intel/AMD boxes. These will all come from - parents of the program and leverage the fact that people - like to replace perfectly good boxes because of spyware on - windows. I personally still have boxes with less than 100GB - RAM and sub-500 mhz processors running 6.x (and I think 7.0) - but I use those as firewalls, I've never used a window manager - so perhaps my view of FreeBSDs efficiency is optimistic. Are - the specs too low for *some* X environment? - - Constraint: I already broached the subject of putting FreeBSD - on the G3s using the PowerPC version. Unfortunately, the 6 - Apples are used by another class on OS-X. - ___ - freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list - http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions - To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
On Jul 9, 2009, at 8:10 AM, Jerry McAllister wrote: On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 07:58:21AM -0700, Chris wrote: - - 2. Am I too lean on the specs for the free AMD/Intel boxes we - are requesting parents cough up? Well, I don't think that you need 256 GB of ram. Probably less than 1 GB, in fact maybe 256 MB will be plenty. 10 GB of hard disk might be a little tight, but if you aren't doing databases and making big permanent sites, but only just small teaching web pages, then you should get by. Doh! All references to RAM in my post should have been MB, not GB. I'm too old to type anymore. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
Chris wrote: The course is HTML. Mouse button operations should be close, a window that gives a simple file directory and a text editor that doesn't require learning a character command set would be the target. Hi Chris, Maybe look at using Xfce, which is a lightweight window manager based on GTK+ and is available in the ports tree and as a package (from the machine specs, I assume you'll be installing packages). The theme you use for it will impact performance as well, but the default should be fine. For text-editing you can try Mousepad (http://www.xfce.org/projects/mousepad/) and Thunar (http://www.xfce.org/projects/thunar/) for file management ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Brent Bloxam bre...@beanfield.com wrote: Chris wrote: The course is HTML. Mouse button operations should be close, a window that gives a simple file directory and a text editor that doesn't require learning a character command set would be the target. Hi Chris, Maybe look at using Xfce, which is a lightweight window manager based on GTK+ and is available in the ports tree and as a package (from the machine specs, I assume you'll be installing packages). The theme you use for it will impact performance as well, but the default should be fine. For text-editing you can try Mousepad ( http://www.xfce.org/projects/mousepad/) and Thunar ( http://www.xfce.org/projects/thunar/) for file management I agree xfce is a good choice. Another thing you may wish to consider is a IDE to develop in. As someone already mentioned, learning vi is invaluable, but sometimes a gui editor is better suited to the task. My newest favorite is Netbeans. It's compatible with a host of different programming and markup languages including html. This will give you a nice gui with syntax highlighting and many other useful features. Most could also be found on vi/vim, but I suspect your students will have an easier time on Netbeans. It wouldn't be snappy on the hardware you mentioned but should be useable. Hopefully you have a better system to build packages on. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
Brent Bloxam wrote: Chris wrote: The course is HTML. Mouse button operations should be close, a window that gives a simple file directory and a text editor that doesn't require learning a character command set would be the target. Hi Chris, Maybe look at using Xfce, which is a lightweight window manager based on GTK+ and is available in the ports tree and as a package (from the machine specs, I assume you'll be installing packages). The theme you use for it will impact performance as well, but the default should be fine. For text-editing you can try Mousepad (http://www.xfce.org/projects/mousepad/) and Thunar (http://www.xfce.org/projects/thunar/) for file management I second XFCE. I've built similar FreeBSD machines and it will work just fine with 256MB RAM. You may also use some other lightweight manager (fluxbox and the like) although these will not provide needed features (like a file manager) unless you install additional ports. To get a more Mac OSX look you may wish to install x11/wbar. As for text editing, I find www/bluefish very nice for HTML. It supports a number of nice features for HTML and is really very easy to use. Since you will be installing lots of underpowered machines, I would suggest you install one and use dump / restore to copy the installation to the other disks. shameless-advertising Have a try with my custom XFCE-based DVD at http://freebsd-custom.wikidot.com /shameless-advertising ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 07:58:21 -0700, Chris eaglet...@hughes.net wrote: 1. Taking the specs into account, what is the window manager that will provide the closest match to the Apple desktop for mouse ops, browsing files/directories, and editing text files. I suppose I should add running Firefox (or a reasonable similar browser that will render HTML and execute Javascript identically). Maybe XFCE 4 is a good choice: http://xubuntublog.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/design-your-own-desktop-with-xfce-44-part-2/ -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for a high school class? (long)
I'm going to top post this because it's not replying to my post. Thanks for the numerous responses on-list and the many others that came off list. I'm going to synopsize what I've received. I'll respond to the questions asked too. I think I'm good to go though and wanted to summarize for the record. XFCE seems to be the consensus with 2 KDE recommendations. One additional suggestion was to use PCBSD or Freesbie. That might make sense but I'm an old dog and have been using the standard FreeBSD for a lot of years. I will fire XFCE up on my test box as soon as I can source upgrade it (I think it's living at 6.2). Disk-wise, the 10GB was questioned. Probably not an issue, I have a few old 40GB drives laying around if a machine comes with less. I was noting a 1999 Compaq came stock with 30GB so it may not be an issue. I adjusted the spec to 20GB. 256MB appears to be acceptable. Only have one computer volunteered thus far at that level, everything is 512 to 2G. Amazing what people have to give up on when running windows ;-). On having apache: It's there to let students see their supplied products work in what looks like the real website for the program they are in. The real site has a superstructure of PERL that handles authentication and calls the many pages they will be providing. The final will be for them to provide real content for given classes in the program and develop each classes webpage. If they have a server running, I can mock the real site without giving them access to the live FreeBSD server (bad idea with a group of mischievous kids!). httpd shouldn't be too much of a drain. vi? Yes it would be great to teach, but a trimester is short and half the kids would be left behind. The head of the program was considering an open-source OS install class for later. That's where vi might come in. Different class, different goals, fewer students will sign up. Installing from ports? Yes, that would be my goal. Just looked on one of my servers and I see XFCE4 in ports so looks good. OSX appearance? Thanks for those suggestions, it's cool that people have developed such but the actual appearance isn't that important. Just same level of application such that class time isn't wasted on differences in platforms. We've already had more systems volunteered than I expected. Ideally, we can forget the Macs altogether. In the last 3 hours, 6 acceptable machines have been volunteered. By fall I imagine we can have 12 and cap registration at that. All on FreeBSD. Thanks very much for all the help. Maybe we'll spawn a new generation of developers ;-). On Jul 9, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Chris wrote: Sorry for the OT-ness of this. I only work with FreeBSD for servers. Have used it as the sole systems for a business since the late 1900s. Twice I've put up X-Windows machines but we never bothered to use them for one reason or another. Now my son's school is short computers for a High School HTML class I'm going to help teach this fall. The official teacher is excited about FreeBSD since we can use old equipment that is donated. There are two issues. We will not get enough FreeBSD systems up to cover all kids in the class. Some will have to use the 10.4/3 OS-X G3s we already have. For the remainder of systems, I've told them I need a minimum 256GB Ram, 500+Mhz, ~10GB hard drive. I will put Apache on both types of boxes so they have a testing platform, hope to put firefox on each so they have a consistent browser. The confusing thing will be Finder and Textedit, versus whatever I use for a window manager on the FreeBSD systems. The two questions are: 1. Taking the specs into account, what is the window manager that will provide the closest match to the Apple desktop for mouse ops, browsing files/directories, and editing text files. I suppose I should add running Firefox (or a reasonable similar browser that will render HTML and execute Javascript identically). I don't mean cosmetically, just enough that there isn't too much needing to teach a window manager. Finder is relatively invisible from a teaching standpoint as is Textedit, Firefox is going to be reasonably standard (this is going to teach HTML standards, not how to use windowed drag and drop page generation products, they will be using a text editor and working with raw HTML, CSS and JavaScript). But what I don't want to be doing is having some learning vi (even though if this were an advanced class, that is precisely what I'd expect ;-)), while others are using textedit. The course is HTML. Mouse button operations should be close, a window that gives a simple file directory and a text editor that doesn't require learning a character command set would be the target. 2. Am I too lean on the specs for the free AMD/Intel boxes we are requesting parents cough up? The district sadly is being forced to go to windows by the state, and now only has these old antique Macs free and has no Intel/AMD boxes. These will all come from parents of the program and leverage
