Re: mot de passe root
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This discussion seems very strange, since I don't really understand how anyone could effectively use FreeBSD (or any flavor of UNIX) without understanding English in the first place. I've never heard of any localized versions of UNIX (?). There's an amazing amount of material that has been localized into quite a number of languages. I believe Gnome and KDE are pretty much fully localized to most languages you can think of these days. I tend to run a Norwegian (Nynorsk or Bokmål, whatever I fancy that day) KDE desktop myself. An ordinary user would get along fine on a typical desktop system in their local language, IME. On the other hand your friendly sysadmin would likely be at a great disadvantage with little or no English. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: There's an amazing amount of material that has been localized into quite a number of languages. I believe Gnome and KDE are pretty much fully localized to most languages you can think of these days. I was thinking of UNIX itself, not X servers or related products. I doubt that even Apple has bothered to localize any of the UNIX software for OS X. Unless one treats UNIX as a black-box desktop server (with a localized GUI), it's going to be hard to work with the system without knowing English. And if it's ever necessary to go outside the desktop GUI environment, there again, English is required. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 01:52:16PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: I doubt that even Apple has bothered to localize any of the UNIX software for OS X. Unless one treats UNIX as a black-box desktop server (with a localized GUI), it's going to be hard to work with the system without knowing English. And if it's ever necessary to go outside the desktop GUI environment, there again, English is required. I've seen a fully localized german version of Unix called SINIX (Siemens' Unix?). Well, not *fully* localized, since the commands were still the usual bunch of 'ls' 'cp', 'mv' etc... (is that really English? ;-)), but everthing else, including error messages and man pages were in german. That was really weird looking, yet cute. I don't know if SINIX is still alive or defunct by now. Oh yeah, I also remember a french version of PASCAL (with french keywords!) from the early eighties. That was even weirder than a localized Unix! Anthony -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, not *fully* localized, since the commands were still the usual bunch of 'ls' 'cp', 'mv' etc... (is that really English? ;-)), but everthing else, including error messages and man pages were in german. That was really weird looking, yet cute. Localizing software destabilizes it; localized versions always contain more bugs (often very hard-to-find bugs) than original versions. If I speak the language of the original authors of a software product, I always use the product in its original language. Localized versions are a constant source of trouble. Even Windows, which makes special provisions for localization, is still far more bug-prone in non-English versions, and I always try to install U.S.-English versions if I can get them. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:26:27 +0100, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, not *fully* localized, since the commands were still the usual bunch of 'ls' 'cp', 'mv' etc... (is that really English? ;-)), but everthing else, including error messages and man pages were in german. That was really weird looking, yet cute. Localizing software destabilizes it; localized versions always contain more bugs (often very hard-to-find bugs) than original versions. If I speak the language of the original authors of a software product, I always use the product in its original language. Localized versions are a constant source of trouble. Even Windows, which makes special provisions for localization, is still far more bug-prone in non-English versions, and I always try to install U.S.-English versions if I can get them. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be honest I've never used a localized version of *NIX, though I imagine that the German version of SuSE (or whatever this weeks capitalization practice is) and the French version of Mandrake would be quite good. I also imagine there's probably also a good Canadian French version of OpenBSD. Then again, it could just be my imagination. On the other hand, I use the localized French versions of Windows XP Pro on the computer labs at school and they don't seem to have any problems -- with the exception that Japanese students always install this dumbass shareware IME program that sets the character set to SHIFT-JIS and Firefox's menus are fscked until you task manager and kill the blasted thing. There's no reason to think that string replacement would cause more bugs in the technical sense; however, a bad translation might contribute to a higher frequency of user error. Maybe I'll have to try installing French FreeBSD and seeing how well it goes :-D ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Josh Ockert writes: There's no reason to think that string replacement would cause more bugs in the technical sense; however, a bad translation might contribute to a higher frequency of user error. Windows is better adapted to localization than most operating systems, because it isolates resources like strings in a way that facilitates keeping them independent of code. Nevertheless, problems arise. Strings often grow much longer when translated. Unicode poses special problems. Buffer overflows are more likely. Formatting messages with variable fields gets more complex and difficult and harder to debug. And patches and fixes take longer to get for localized versions; dumps generated in localized versions are harder to debug, since everything has moved. The list goes on and on. All of these problems are multipled a thousandfold in UNIX and most other operating systems, where almost all language information is hard-coded directly into the software. Localization makes sense for ordinary end users, but not for IT professionals. They are vastly better off working in English. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:10:30 +0100, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh Ockert writes: There's no reason to think that string replacement would cause more bugs in the technical sense; however, a bad translation might contribute to a higher frequency of user error. Windows is better adapted to localization than most operating systems, because it isolates resources like strings in a way that facilitates keeping them independent of code. Nevertheless, problems arise. Strings often grow much longer when translated. Unicode poses special problems. Buffer overflows are more likely. Formatting messages with variable fields gets more complex and difficult and harder to debug. And patches and fixes take longer to get for localized versions; dumps generated in localized versions are harder to debug, since everything has moved. The list goes on and on. All of these problems are multipled a thousandfold in UNIX and most other operating systems, where almost all language information is hard-coded directly into the software. Localization makes sense for ordinary end users, but not for IT professionals. They are vastly better off working in English. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh I agree. Actually, my partner in my duo linguistique at the Centre de Linguistique Appliquée (in Besançon) is an IT guy who wants to improve his English. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Localizing software destabilizes it; localized versions always contain more bugs (often very hard-to-find bugs) than original versions. I fail to see how switching from one set of message strings files in a correctly written application would destabilize it. Localized versions are a constant source of trouble. Even Windows, which makes special provisions for localization, is still far more bug-prone in non-English versions, and I always try to install U.S.-English versions if I can get them. Oh, you're talking about Windows. Yes, there's been a lot of localization related trouble there. But then we're relatively safe from the secret brainfarts of Microsoft developers here. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: I fail to see how switching from one set of message strings files in a correctly written application would destabilize it. As I've explained, changing string lengths can be a source of trouble; string copies that worked before are suddenly overflowing buffers. Inserting variable data into messages is also difficult with localized software, as the order and format of the variables must often change, and sometimes a lot of extra code is required to accommodate this. Special characters can cause code to fail if it is not prepared to handle 8-bit data--setting the high-order bit is especially likely to make trouble. There are lots of potential problems. And that's just with software that facilitates localization, such as Windows executables. In other environments, it gets a lot worse. Oh, you're talking about Windows. Yes, there's been a lot of localization related trouble there. But then we're relatively safe from the secret brainfarts of Microsoft developers here. As I've already pointed out, localization is actually cleaner and safer in Windows programs than in most other types of software. Windows allows you to isolate strings and similar data in resource files built separately from the executable code. In many other environments, you have to either hard code all language data directly into the program, or you have to write your own code to allow broad localization. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was thinking of UNIX itself, not X servers or related products. Take a peek in /usr/share/locale and /usr/local/share/locale next time you're at a FreeBSD or Linux system. I doubt that even Apple has bothered to localize any of the UNIX software for OS X. You haven't checked, then. Unless the company's been taken over by the beancounters again, I'd imagine localized messages are at least available for roughly the same languates available for the GUI parts. The thing is, as long as you stay away from command line options and scripting/programming language keywords (yes, I have more than 15 years' experience in the localization industry, I've seen quite a bit of such foolishness) and the software is sanely written, messages are fairly straightforward and risk-free to translate. . -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ First, we kill all the spammers The Usenet Bard, Twice-forwarded tales ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: Take a peek in /usr/share/locale and /usr/local/share/locale next time you're at a FreeBSD or Linux system. No need. I can look at the source of almost any UNIX program and see that there is no provision for localization at all, short of brute modification of the source code itself. But this is not unreasonable for a server operating system, although it's much harder to defend for software visible to potentially unsophisticated end users. However, back in the days when UNIX was written, localization was not a high priority, and when it was undertaken at all, it was done the hard way, by rewriting. You haven't checked, then. No, I have not, but I should be _extremely_ surprised if Apple has gone through all the UNIX source code and modified it to permit easy localization. That would come perilously close to a rewrite. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 16:42 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: Peter Risdon wrote: I have no idea why you're trying to misrepresent what I was saying. It's starting to feel mildly bizarre. Peter. I am not trying to misrepresent anything, and I don't believe that I am. From your initial posting: Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Reading this again, it seems completely reasonable and obvious. I'm very happy to stand by it. Peter If you were not saying that -questions should be an English-only list, then which single language were you referring to? The single language I referred to is of course English. But, my obtuse friend, that's not the point at issue. It's the words *should be* and *English-only* in your question. These are not my words but that doesn't stop you trying to put them into my mouth. The simple fact is that -questions _is_ an English language, as opposed to an English-only, list (see below). You haven't noticed that? Hmmm... Try reading the etiquette guide I quoted, from the FreeBSD website (-questions is English in theory), and count the percentage of postings in English, which is well above 99% (and English in practice). This is pretty obvious stuff, Bob. But people sometimes post in other languages and then other people try to help them, including me if I feel competent. And that's great. How can I interpret your statement above to mean anything other than that you believe this should be an English-only list? By reading it in a straightforward way and not trying to distort it for your own, unfathomable, purposes. Are you arguing that declaring and respecting a single language is not the same as prohibiting other languages? At last! That's right. This has absolutely nothing to do with prohibition. Prohibition is imposed , respect is self-imposed. Again, pretty obvious stuff. People _are_ asked, politely, (declaring) by FreeBSD.org, on their website, in the bit about mailing lists, to use an appropriate language for lists and it's entirely clear they mean English unless otherwise stated. I've quoted this to you since and I echoed it when someone seemed to be calling for a _CHANGE_ in policy. I've already made that perfectly clear [1]. I think the guidance on the website should be borne in mind by list subscribers (respecting). That's why I say you are trying to misrepresent what I said. A list moderator might prohibit non-English posts and that would create an *English-only* list. I am absolutely not calling for that. By contrast, individual posters might respect guidelines and in this context that would make for an *English language* list. Nothing authoritarian, just a guideline that people respect of their own volition. There's nothing new about this idea - respecting guidelines is a normal part of netiquette. Now, remember that declare and respect were the words I used in my initial posting, and you have demonstrated this by quoting them for me, above. They have been there all along, clearly, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the sort of authoritarianism you seem determined to try to contrive from my words. To repeat myself one last time, I was DISAGREEING with SOMEBODY ELSE who seemed to be CALLING FOR A CHANGE. You are stating, falsely, that I called for a change, then disagreeing with the change you are falsely claiming I advocate. How pointless can you get? This is already repetitious and must be deeply tedious to other subscribers by now. I attempted, in my last post, to agree to disagree in a friendly way with you. After all, we've both said our piece and they are in the archives if anyone ever gives a damn. You have chosen to ignore that amicable overture. So I am going to spare subscribers the tedium of any further posts to this thread. Peter. [1] From an earlier post: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 12:49 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: There is no call to splinter into many languages. *sigh* The starting point for this was a post which seemed to me to be doing just that. If you interpret that posting differently, and you haven't said whether you do, then that's our point of difference. Perhaps I misread the OP, in which case there's nothing to discuss and everything's fine and dandy. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Good God this is all non-sensical. Peter, there is absolutely nothing to give the impression that questions is meant to be entirely, exclusively, or even primarily English-language list. Consider the following: 1) FreeBSD is a US project, and the US has no official language, so there is no implied language for the project. In addition, many people in the US speak languages (natively) other than English. I should know. I'm from Northern Michigan and if you want to try explaining to a big burly fur-trader descendant named Reuben who lives on Bois Blanc island that he is not supposed to speak French, you're likely to get the crap beaten out of you. In short, even if you look at freebsd.org as being country-specific (I disagree with this in the first place, but anyway) that still doesn't mean English should necessarily dominate on its lists. 2) There are NO official french-language lists. There is a French-language list, but it is not official. I am subscribed to it, and as such I can assure you that, per day, more francophones read the official list than they do the unofficial french-language list. This makes it quite unreasonable to expect francophones to use the unofficial list, knowing they won't receive support. If you would like to continue with this connerie, you may do so; but if you do, don't expect thereafter that your messages will continue to show up in my inbox. By the way, I assume you are indeed a native anglophone, so even according to the guidelines there is no excuse for your spelling of xenophobic with a z. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Josh, On the grounds that this a new front, I'll post on this thread one last time, but I have been suggesting for several posts now that we've all expressed our views and other people can make up their minds without constant repetition from us. On Fri, 2005-03-25 at 13:18 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: Good God this is all non-sensical. If you really want to pick up my spelling mistake, which I happily acknowledge I made, it's ironic to see you make one yourself (nonsense is not hyphenated). But English is perhaps not your langue de naissance? If not, I compliment you on your facility with it. J'essaye de utiliser la francaise mais je ne suis pas du tout pres de votre niveau en anglais. Peter, there is absolutely nothing to give the impression that questions is meant to be entirely, exclusively, or even primarily English-language list. True enough for the first two (entirely, exclusively), but people _are_ encouraged to use English and I quoted from the FreeBSD website to demonstrate that. I don't know why you haven't accepted this, even if you disagree with it, or explained why you do not. I have never responded to anyone who posted in a language other than English that they should not have done so - and lots of other people have. I think the list should be, and generally is, welcoming for everyone, regardless of whether or not they have sufficient competence in English to use it to ask a question. But I do disagree with you about the idea that the list should be officially linguistically agnostic. I think people should be encouraged to use one language if possible, and that for a variety of reasons English is the obvious choice. In this, I seem to be closer to the guidelines expressed on the FreeBSD website than you are. But that doesn't mean I'm right, or that a majority would agree. However, it is a valid, genuine opinion and it's a shame you choose to respond to it with insults, even in French, and mail filtering. I guess I should have realised that there's a fairly bitter philosophical divide underlying this sort of debate. It's similar to multiculturalism vs. integration, or the occasional battles within the European Union over language. FWIW, I also think the EU should adopt one language primarily, but that for historical reasons this should be French. And that really is it. I subscribed to this list for technical questions, not for this sort of circular and needlessly personal sort of debate. Peter. Consider the following: 1) FreeBSD is a US project, and the US has no official language, so there is no implied language for the project. In addition, many people in the US speak languages (natively) other than English. I should know. I'm from Northern Michigan and if you want to try explaining to a big burly fur-trader descendant named Reuben who lives on Bois Blanc island that he is not supposed to speak French, you're likely to get the crap beaten out of you. In short, even if you look at freebsd.org as being country-specific (I disagree with this in the first place, but anyway) that still doesn't mean English should necessarily dominate on its lists. 2) There are NO official french-language lists. There is a French-language list, but it is not official. I am subscribed to it, and as such I can assure you that, per day, more francophones read the official list than they do the unofficial french-language list. This makes it quite unreasonable to expect francophones to use the unofficial list, knowing they won't receive support. If you would like to continue with this connerie, you may do so; but if you do, don't expect thereafter that your messages will continue to show up in my inbox. By the way, I assume you are indeed a native anglophone, so even according to the guidelines there is no excuse for your spelling of xenophobic with a z. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
This discussion seems very strange, since I don't really understand how anyone could effectively use FreeBSD (or any flavor of UNIX) without understanding English in the first place. I've never heard of any localized versions of UNIX (?). More generally, it's virtually impossible to work in the IT field anywhere today without having some reasonable command of English, although I suppose there are a few desert islands somewhere where it isn't absolutely necessary. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 08:54 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:51:51 +, Peter Risdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 08:54 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Peter. You could equally argue that this place is already a babel; mentally disregarding messages in foreign languages should be just as easy as ignoring the questions about particular hardware you know nothing about. We're all Internet literate here (at any rate, most of us ;) ), which suggests that we've the ability to pick out the important and/or applicable bits from masses of information. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 10:05 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:51:51 +, Peter Risdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 08:54 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Peter. You could equally argue that this place is already a babel; mentally disregarding messages in foreign languages should be just as easy as ignoring the questions about particular hardware you know nothing about. We're all Internet literate here (at any rate, most of us ;) ), which suggests that we've the ability to pick out the important and/or applicable bits from masses of information. No, I'm sorry but that seems to me to be a non sequitur. We can understand questions we are not competent to answer if they are in English, learn from the replies and if we hit the same issues ourselves we can google and get a reply we can understand. You are suggesting this incredibly useful situation be broken, if I understand you right. And this applies to French and Russian speakers equally: this is an English list, there are also French and Russian lists. I'd argue just as strongly that postings to the French list should be in French. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Peter Risdon wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 08:54 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Peter. When did this become an English-only list? For years the policy of this list was that you were free to post in any language you were comfortable with, but with the caveat that you had the best chance of getting help if you posted in English. Postings in other languages were often answered in that language, with an added pointer to a local support list in that language. So again, I ask: has that policy changed, or are the xenophobes just trying to impose their biases on the rest of us? - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Peter Risdon wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 10:05 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:51:51 +, Peter Risdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 08:54 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Peter. You could equally argue that this place is already a babel; mentally disregarding messages in foreign languages should be just as easy as ignoring the questions about particular hardware you know nothing about. We're all Internet literate here (at any rate, most of us ;) ), which suggests that we've the ability to pick out the important and/or applicable bits from masses of information. No, I'm sorry but that seems to me to be a non sequitur. We can understand questions we are not competent to answer if they are in English, learn from the replies and if we hit the same issues ourselves we can google and get a reply we can understand. You are suggesting this incredibly useful situation be broken, if I understand you right. And this applies to French and Russian speakers equally: this is an English list, there are also French and Russian lists. I'd argue just as strongly that postings to the French list should be in French. Peter. This is the default world-wide FreeBSD support list. Postings in any language have always been welcome (at least since I subscribed in 1997). Who put you in charge of deciding otherwise? - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Mar 24, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Bob Johnson wrote: Peter Risdon wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 10:05 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:51:51 +, Peter Risdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 08:54 +0100, Josh Ockert wrote: I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. Perhaps, though I'm not sure myself what is said in Russian to them whereas I can read the French. But the reply in, I think, Swedish to this question in French was a very good indication of what an impossible babel this or any other list would be if a single language were not declared and respected. Peter. You could equally argue that this place is already a babel; mentally disregarding messages in foreign languages should be just as easy as ignoring the questions about particular hardware you know nothing about. We're all Internet literate here (at any rate, most of us ;) ), which suggests that we've the ability to pick out the important and/or applicable bits from masses of information. No, I'm sorry but that seems to me to be a non sequitur. We can understand questions we are not competent to answer if they are in English, learn from the replies and if we hit the same issues ourselves we can google and get a reply we can understand. You are suggesting this incredibly useful situation be broken, if I understand you right. And this applies to French and Russian speakers equally: this is an English list, there are also French and Russian lists. I'd argue just as strongly that postings to the French list should be in French. Peter. This is the default world-wide FreeBSD support list. Postings in any language have always been welcome (at least since I subscribed in 1997). Who put you in charge of deciding otherwise? How about we all agree to only ask questions in C? Or will people start arguing in C++ or Python after that? :-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Re: mot de passe root]
---BeginMessage--- On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 10:30 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: No, I'm sorry but that seems to me to be a non sequitur. We can understand questions we are not competent to answer if they are in English, learn from the replies and if we hit the same issues ourselves we can google and get a reply we can understand. You are suggesting this incredibly useful situation be broken, if I understand you right. And this applies to French and Russian speakers equally: this is an English list, there are also French and Russian lists. I'd argue just as strongly that postings to the French list should be in French. Peter. This is the default world-wide FreeBSD support list. Postings in any language have always been welcome (at least since I subscribed in 1997). Who put you in charge of deciding otherwise? Crikey. Well, nobody, of course, and I'm not assuming that position. I was responding to and not initiating a thread. However: quote Please use an appropriate human language for a particular mailing list. Many non-English mailing lists are available. For the ones that are not, we do appreciate that many people do not speak English as their first language, and we try to make allowances for that. It is considered particularly poor form to criticize non-native speakers for spelling or grammatical errors. FreeBSD has an excellent track record in this regard; please, help us to uphold that tradition. /quote comes from http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html and it's clearly implicit that lists are in English unless otherwise stated. This also seems implicit in statements such as: quote The newcomers accuse the hackers of being arrogant, stuck-up, and unhelpful, while the hackers accuse the newcomers of being stupid, unable to read plain English, and expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. /quote from How to get best results from the FreeBSD-questions mailing list http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/ So it seems clear that: - English is the language in use in lists unless otherwise stated - there are non-English lists. I responded because I do think it's important that the lists remain a useful archive, and that a call, as I read it, to splinter into many languages would break this. I argued as I did for the reasons I gave and not out of zenophobia, as you suggested in another post. I think you were out of line with that, but am not going to lose any sleep over it. Peter. ---End Message--- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Re: mot de passe root]
On Mar 24, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Peter Risdon wrote: From: Peter Risdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: March 24, 2005 12:31:36 PM EST To: Bob Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Josh Ockert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: mot de passe root On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 10:30 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: No, I'm sorry but that seems to me to be a non sequitur. We can understand questions we are not competent to answer if they are in English, learn from the replies and if we hit the same issues ourselves we can google and get a reply we can understand. You are suggesting this incredibly useful situation be broken, if I understand you right. And this applies to French and Russian speakers equally: this is an English list, there are also French and Russian lists. I'd argue just as strongly that postings to the French list should be in French. Peter. This is the default world-wide FreeBSD support list. Postings in any language have always been welcome (at least since I subscribed in 1997). Who put you in charge of deciding otherwise? Crikey. Well, nobody, of course, and I'm not assuming that position. I was responding to and not initiating a thread. However: quote Please use an appropriate human language for a particular mailing list. /quote 010011100111010101110100011100110011 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 12:49 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: There is no call to splinter into many languages. *sigh* The starting point for this was a post which seemed to me to be doing just that. If you interpret that posting differently, and you haven't said whether you do, then that's our point of difference. Perhaps I misread the OP, in which case there's nothing to discuss and everything's fine and dandy. This list has for at least the past eight years been multilingual. Kind of... it's an English language list to which posts are sometimes made in other languages. When that happens, generally one of the poster's fellow nationals gently reminds them that it's an English language list, and sometimes translates their questions so others can try to help. Sometimes not. It's informal, as we both know. But to call it multilingual is at best an exaggeration. It is your call to make it English-only that is new. I have no idea why you're trying to misrepresent what I was saying. It's starting to feel mildly bizarre. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Mar 24, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Peter Risdon wrote: I have no idea why you're trying to misrepresent what I was saying. It's starting to feel mildly bizarre. You say this as if it is the first time, being a system admin, you have had this feeling... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 14:45 -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Mar 24, 2005, at 2:34 PM, Peter Risdon wrote: I have no idea why you're trying to misrepresent what I was saying. It's starting to feel mildly bizarre. You say this as if it is the first time, being a system admin, you have had this feeling... You're right, it's not. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Peter Risdon wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 12:49 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: This list has for at least the past eight years been multilingual. Kind of... it's an English language list to which posts are sometimes made in other languages. When that happens, generally one of the poster's fellow nationals gently reminds them that it's an English language list, and sometimes translates their questions so others can try to help. Sometimes not. It's informal, as we both know. But to call it multilingual is at best an exaggeration. This is not historically accurate, at least not in my experience. The attempt to make this an English-only list is a recent phenomenon. Posts in other languages were historically entirely welcome, and the only reason people were sent to language-specific lists was because they were likely to get better results there, not because there was a rule requiring that they use English here. As long as the domain name (freebsd.org) is not country-specific, we should expect visits from new users who don't speak English well or at all, and plan accordingly. Prohibiting them from posting here is not appropriate, unless the name of the list is changed to something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a previous message to me you stated: So it seems clear that: - English is the language in use in lists unless otherwise stated - there are non-English lists. Both of those statements are true. Neither leads to the conclusion that other languages are banned from this list. The fact that English is the default language for this list does not imply that other languages are banned. I responded because I do think it's important that the lists remain a useful archive, and that a call, as I read it, to splinter into many languages would break this. This is hogwash. Postings in other languages are still a useful archive. I don't claim to be multilingual, and I have certainly never made an effort to learn French, yet I can usually read enough of a French posting to understand the problem and proposed solution. Historically, the number of non-English postings has been so low as to be a non-issue. Your conjecture about what might happen was long ago demonstrated to be false. The list is here to help people. Creating an arbitrary English-only rule helps no one, and serves no useful purpose. As much as I would like to ban the French to their own list, I can't think of any legitimate reason to do so other than personal prejudice. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 16:02 -0500, Bob Johnson wrote: As much as I would like to ban the French to their own list, I can't think of any legitimate reason to do so other than personal prejudice. Well, it's good to see you strike a light-hearted note. There are an impressive number of straw men in your post but the earlier correspondence speaks for itself, and makes it perfectly clear what I was arguing, so perhaps that's a good point at which to end the thread. Peter. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
impossible de configurer un mot de passe root
Lorsque qu j'installe Free BSD 5.3 toout se passe bien par contre c a la fin de l'intallation que ca ce gate. lorsque qui'i me demande de configurer le mot de passe root impossible de le rentrer . ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mot de passe root
A la fin de l'intallation de BSB 5.3 lors que le systéme me demande de définir un mot de passe root le systeme refuse ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Le 23/03/2005 à 22:13:17+0100, Dimitri GALAITSIS a écrit A la fin de l'intallation de BSB 5.3 lors que le systéme me demande de définir un mot de passe root le systeme refuse I think this is a english mailing list. Please use [EMAIL PROTECTED] for french mailing list. * C'est à dire ? Vous dites qu'il ne veut pas de votre mot de passe. Mais vous étès bien dans le menu d'install ? De toute façon par défaut l'installateur ne met pas de mot de passe donc suffit de rebooter et on se retrouve avce un compte root sans mot de passe. On se logge et ensuite on fait un passwd. Cordialement -- Albert SHIH Universite de Paris 7 (Denis DIDEROT) U.F.R. de Mathematiques. Heure local/Local time: Wed Mar 23 22:38:25 CET 2005 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
Dimitri GALAITSIS skrev: A la fin de l'intallation de BSB 5.3 lors que le systéme me demande de définir un mot de passe root le systeme refuse Ni skåningar ska då pressa er inöver allt. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mot de passe root
I've noticed that nobody responds negatively to questions by Russian speakers, but that French speakers are told not to ask questions here. I don't believe this is a fair response. J'ai bien noté que personne ne répond d'une façon négative lorsqu'il y a une question d'un russophone, mais que l'on dit aux francophone qu'ils ne doivent pas démander ici. Je ne crois pas que ce réponse est juste. Si le système refuse un mot de passe, il est possible que vous n'avez pas choisi l'option crypto (ou même que votre système ne la supporte pas, comme des problèmes d'exportation existent avec les logiciels d'origine Etats-Unisienne utilisés outre-mer) pendant l'installation; si c'est le cas, vous ne pouvez pas utiliser un mot de passe trop long. Sinon, il nous aiderait si vous nous disiez le message d'erreur spécifique que le système vous présente. En tout cas, je vous conseille d'essayer un mot de passe simple et court pendant l'installation, et puis d'essayer de le changer après. Si vous voulez, vous pouvez me contacter directement, et j'essayerai de vous aider. Bonne chance. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
