Re: switching discs during install
Hey, James Strother, if i'm on the same wavelength with you on this, god knows how many times my pc almost made it out the window with this swapping thingy. don't know if this helps a bit at this point to at least save some energy. Well _last _ thing first --- i finally downloaded the dvd, which is well worth it in the long run ( from mini if i recall, plus someone here gave a link ), but if you have a slow connection or download limits, it is a bit hard to suggest that at the moment since 7.1 is around the corner and i'm not sure if that means new discs with latest packages will be available anyway. Apart from that, i am very much new to fbsd, but did quite a few fresh installs before i found my best setup, so here are a few points that made life easier for me. Firstly, which shouldn't be new - cd1 has the base system, source and ports tree, and Xorg. After that kde for instance, can be entirely installed from cd2 ( which i am most familiar with); and i always just do one package or *chunk* at a time. But i just used to install cd1 (base, src/ports, and xorg), reboot without installing packages, copy the packages directory off cd2 to my hard disc under /home and then still use sysinstall to add them from there - by selecting from an existing filesystem' instead of from CD/DVD. But this never gave my trouble since kde is entirely on cd2. To add cd3 might need fixing the index file for sysinstall to work - not sure; but using pkg_add should work from the hard disk. This is just in case you need to reinstall, but i know it does not solve what you hoped for; which i think is still not so straightforward. Here is a basic idea of what i can make of the swapping discs thing. eg. Gnome as the basic meta-port is mainly on cd2 - (i think!). However, i remember coming across a part in the porter's handbook that recommends dependencies, for any given port, be listed alphabetically. So say apache (e.g.) was added as a gnome dependency, (maybe not directly - say depend of a depend) but it is not actually a part of the meta-port, and most probably on cd3-- then it still gets added/installed alphabetically or just before the package that needs it. ( I had noticed some roughly alphabetical order once that made me think that - unless i was hallucinating). I hope this makes sense - even if it not the case - because i am in a rush and i had to comment as this had bugged me alot. Still, even the dvd packages (which are the same version as on the cds with 7-release) are pretty much all outdated now, besides the fact that you will have to build them all from ports, since packages are only available for Stable. I actually built kde4.1 twice from scratch before realising it was easier to upgrade to 7Stable, then add packages using portupgrade -NP -- which saves a local copy of all downloaded packages under /usr/ports/packages/All, and saved my lots of time later. It works better than pkg_add -rK; which only saves the package you ask for and none of the downloaded dependencies. Sorry if i made a mess of this right now. i'm finally up to date right now with all my packages and running 7.1 prerelease, so will see what happens with 7.1 release before i bother making my own dvd with latest packages. phew. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
On Sun, Sep 07, 2008 at 07:06:03AM -0400, Randy Pratt wrote: On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:22:37 +0100 Mike Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 07 September 2008, James Strother wrote: That said, I still think that as long as the freebsd foundation distributes CD images it would be worthwhile to make them as effective as possible. Actually, even if the install were moved to a DVD, the ordered install I proposed would still improve the situation. When the packages are haphazardly ordered on the disc, the CD/DVD reader is forced to perform a large number of seeks that dramatically reduces data throughput. When they are read in order, read rates should be much better. They might not be as haphazard as you suggest. ISTR once reading that the CDs were arranged with the most popular packages on the first CD so that you would only need to download disk 2 (and 3) if you wanted some of the less common packages. With your suggested layout it's quite likely that a package which most of the others depend on would be right down at the bottom of the list with the result that you'd invariably need to download all 3 CD images. I think the best way to avoid the need for frequent CD switching would be for sysinstall to sort the list of selected packages into CD order before installing them. I imagine this would require some changes to pkg_add to prevent it from installing dependencies and I expect the possible benefits would not be considered to be sufficient to justify the effort. Another way to avoid switching CDs is to select an FTP server for installing packages. This also avoids downloading bits you don't need or want. I think the OP mentioned having a difficult or slow internet connection as being part of the reason for the question/comment. Although I enjoy having a 100MB line to my office into a 10GB backbone, still not all people are that fortunate and I don't even have a good line at home where I am still stuck with dialup (so I drag my machine in to the office for installs). jerry There is another discussion: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?1220762797.29265.43.camel which would address the disk swapping by removing all the packages from disc1 and providing a DVD of packages that could be used after installation. HTH, Randy -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
Jerry McAllister wrote: On Sun, Sep 07, 2008 at 07:06:03AM -0400, Randy Pratt wrote: On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:22:37 +0100 Mike Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 07 September 2008, James Strother wrote: That said, I still think that as long as the freebsd foundation distributes CD images it would be worthwhile to make them as effective as possible. Actually, even if the install were moved to a DVD, the ordered install I proposed would still improve the situation. When the packages are haphazardly ordered on the disc, the CD/DVD reader is forced to perform a large number of seeks that dramatically reduces data throughput. When they are read in order, read rates should be much better. They might not be as haphazard as you suggest. ISTR once reading that the CDs were arranged with the most popular packages on the first CD so that you would only need to download disk 2 (and 3) if you wanted some of the less common packages. With your suggested layout it's quite likely that a package which most of the others depend on would be right down at the bottom of the list with the result that you'd invariably need to download all 3 CD images. I think the best way to avoid the need for frequent CD switching would be for sysinstall to sort the list of selected packages into CD order before installing them. I imagine this would require some changes to pkg_add to prevent it from installing dependencies and I expect the possible benefits would not be considered to be sufficient to justify the effort. Another way to avoid switching CDs is to select an FTP server for installing packages. This also avoids downloading bits you don't need or want. I think the OP mentioned having a difficult or slow internet connection as being part of the reason for the question/comment. Although I enjoy having a 100MB line to my office into a 10GB backbone, still not all people are that fortunate and I don't even have a good line at home where I am still stuck with dialup (so I drag my machine in to the office for installs). jerry There is another discussion: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?1220762797.29265.43.camel which would address the disk swapping by removing all the packages from disc1 and providing a DVD of packages that could be used after installation. HTH, Randy -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aloha, Slow internet is an unforunate fact of life. Here in Hawaii we have many military installations and many times they down load or up load satellite or other images that hog our Trans Oceanic band width. I have a 3 meg download line and it is excellent most of the time. However, when there are certain missions or satellite tests going on it slows things noticably. I have found that by using the Australian Mirrors can help from here or trying one of the less popular mirrors from MIT or one of the Canadian ones can really speed up down loads. I Make a copy of CD 1 FreeBSD and then load a minimal install (with ports). Then down load from a FreeBSD server anything else I need for the server or desktop I am setting up. And select one of the ftp mirrors that is normally not too choked. Best of luck. ~Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii - Phone: 808-284-2740 + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + + http://aloha50.net - Supporting - FreeBSD 6.* - 7.* - 8.* + email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] All that's really worth doing is what we do for others.- Lewis Carrol ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
I had actually avoided the base system because I was installing FreeBSD on a system with a poor internet connection, but I was able to download the discs on a system with a high speed connection. The DVD would have worked fine, but it was not available from the freebsd home page and so I did not know it was available. But thanks for the information. Next time, I'll give it a try. That said, I still think that as long as the freebsd foundation distributes CD images it would be worthwhile to make them as effective as possible. Actually, even if the install were moved to a DVD, the ordered install I proposed would still improve the situation. When the packages are haphazardly ordered on the disc, the CD/DVD reader is forced to perform a large number of seeks that dramatically reduces data throughput. When they are read in order, read rates should be much better. While I doubt many users choose an operating system based on installation performance, it would save people a little time and make a better first impression. -Jim On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Manolis Kiagias [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: James Strother wrote: I just completed an install of FreeBSD 7.0 and couldn't help but wonder why it was necessary for me to switch discs back and forth so much while installing ported applications. I've used FreeBSD on and off for a number of years and this issue has always irked me a just a little bit. It means that I have to babysit the installation and it really does increase the time required to perform the installation. SNIP Most people install only the base system from CD, then install applications from ports or download newer packages. If you insist on installing packages from the installation media, there is an easy way. Use the DVD: http://www.tuxdistro.com/download.php?id=921name=FreeBSD-7.0-RELEASE-DVD-ISO.torrent Or, create one yourself using your already downloaded discs: http://www.pa.msu.edu/~tigner/bsddvd.htmlhttp://www.pa.msu.edu/%7Etigner/bsddvd.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
They might not be as haphazard as you suggest. ISTR once reading that the CDs were arranged with the most popular packages on the first CD so that you would only need to download disk 2 (and 3) if you wanted some of the less common packages. With your suggested layout it's quite likely that a package which most of the others depend on would be right down at the bottom of the list with the result that you'd invariably need to download all 3 CD images. I have to admit that I have no idea how they are organized, there could be very good reasons for doing it the current way. However, I was actually only suggesting that the packages be sorted by popularity, where popularity is the number of packages which depend on the package in question (this would need to include both direct and indirect dependencies). The most-depended-upon packages would go on the first disc and the least-depended-upon packages would go on the last. If you move from first to last, then all dependencies are automatically satisfied. While this should put most of the common packages on the first disc, you could have a frequently installed package that was not highly depended upon that was placed on the last disc. If your aim was to minimize the number of discs that had to be downloaded this ordering would be less that ideal. However, there are a large number of orderings which still satisfy the dependencies; the one I gave is just a good starting point. If you wanted, such packages could be promoted in the ordering by placing them immediately after all of their dependencies had been satisfied. In fact, you could do this recursively for every package that the particular package depended upon so that it occurred as early in the ordering as possible. And if you had a list of such important packages this could clearly be performed for each (if you started with the least important and moved to the most, you could ensure that the most important were placed earlier in the ordering). I think the best way to avoid the need for frequent CD switching would be for sysinstall to sort the list of selected packages into CD order before installing them. I imagine this would require some changes to pkg_add to prevent it from installing dependencies and I expect the possible benefits would not be considered to be sufficient to justify the effort. I agree that fiddling with pkg_add to place the packages neatly on the disc would probably not be worth the effort, but I'm not sure that it is necessary. In order for the method I suggested to work, sysinstall would have to be modified to attempt installation in the selected ordering. If you had a list of the packages in this ordering, you would only have to flip the please install this one bit for the selected packages, and then traverse the list in order installing/ignoring each package. Since all dependencies would be satisfied by virtue of the ordering, pkg_add would find that every dependency had already been satisfied and should not cause any problems. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:22:37 +0100 Mike Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 07 September 2008, James Strother wrote: That said, I still think that as long as the freebsd foundation distributes CD images it would be worthwhile to make them as effective as possible. Actually, even if the install were moved to a DVD, the ordered install I proposed would still improve the situation. When the packages are haphazardly ordered on the disc, the CD/DVD reader is forced to perform a large number of seeks that dramatically reduces data throughput. When they are read in order, read rates should be much better. They might not be as haphazard as you suggest. ISTR once reading that the CDs were arranged with the most popular packages on the first CD so that you would only need to download disk 2 (and 3) if you wanted some of the less common packages. With your suggested layout it's quite likely that a package which most of the others depend on would be right down at the bottom of the list with the result that you'd invariably need to download all 3 CD images. I think the best way to avoid the need for frequent CD switching would be for sysinstall to sort the list of selected packages into CD order before installing them. I imagine this would require some changes to pkg_add to prevent it from installing dependencies and I expect the possible benefits would not be considered to be sufficient to justify the effort. Another way to avoid switching CDs is to select an FTP server for installing packages. This also avoids downloading bits you don't need or want. There is another discussion: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?1220762797.29265.43.camel which would address the disk swapping by removing all the packages from disc1 and providing a DVD of packages that could be used after installation. HTH, Randy -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
On Sunday 07 September 2008, James Strother wrote: That said, I still think that as long as the freebsd foundation distributes CD images it would be worthwhile to make them as effective as possible. Actually, even if the install were moved to a DVD, the ordered install I proposed would still improve the situation. When the packages are haphazardly ordered on the disc, the CD/DVD reader is forced to perform a large number of seeks that dramatically reduces data throughput. When they are read in order, read rates should be much better. They might not be as haphazard as you suggest. ISTR once reading that the CDs were arranged with the most popular packages on the first CD so that you would only need to download disk 2 (and 3) if you wanted some of the less common packages. With your suggested layout it's quite likely that a package which most of the others depend on would be right down at the bottom of the list with the result that you'd invariably need to download all 3 CD images. I think the best way to avoid the need for frequent CD switching would be for sysinstall to sort the list of selected packages into CD order before installing them. I imagine this would require some changes to pkg_add to prevent it from installing dependencies and I expect the possible benefits would not be considered to be sufficient to justify the effort. -- Mike Clarke ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
On Sunday 07 September 2008, Randy Pratt wrote: There is another discussion: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/mid.cgi?1220762797.29265.43.camel which would address the disk swapping by removing all the packages from disc1 and providing a DVD of packages that could be used after installation. That looks interesting. It would certainly appeal to me, though I don't expect I'm a typical user. My broadband account operates on a PAYG basis, if I go over my monthly usage allowance then I pay per GB for the extra daytime data but all downloads between midnight and 8:00am are still free. With this setup I certainly don't want to be downloading all the packages from a FTP server on demand when I'm doing an install. My approach is to fetch the ISOs overnight so that I can install the packages I need to get myself up and running. Afterwards I use portupgrade to bring things up to date, either as a daytime task if there's not too many ports to upgrade or after an overnight run of portupgrade -aFR if there's a lot to do. -- Mike Clarke ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: switching discs during install
All this talk about changing the order of the ports on the install cd's is
just so much hot air because cd's install media belong to the legacy world.
They are fast becoming obsolete just like floppy drives are. Can't even buy
a computer these days with a floppy drive and still FreeBSD distributes
floppy install images. How absurd is that?
FreeBSD needs to come of age in the 21st century and be changed to install
using USB memory flash stick technology. Just a little tweaking of the
sysinstall program to add USB stick as an option for source of install
source would do it.
Here is a little script to populate a USB flash stick with the cd1.iso that
you may find interesting. This way you can combine the cd1 cd2 install
cd's to a 4GB USB stick and install the system and all the ports you want
without switching any install media. You could even use a USB flash stick as
the target to install FreeBSD on giving you an mobile FreeBSD system you can
plug into any computer and boot from.
#!/bin/sh
#Purpose = Use to transfer the FreeBSD install cd1 to
# a bootable 1GB USB flash drive so it can be used to install from.
# First fetch the FreeBSD 6.2-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso to your
# hard drive /usr. Then execute this script from the command line
# fbsd2usb /usr/6.2-RELEASE-i386-disc1.iso /usr/6.2-RELEASE-i386-disc1.img
# Change system bios to boot from USB-dd and away you go.
# NOTE: This script has to be run from root and your 1GB USB flash drive
# has to be plugged in before running this script.
# On the command line enter fbsd2usb iso-path img-path
# You can set some variables here. Edit them to fit your needs.
# Set serial variable to 0 if you don't want serial console at all,
# 1 if you want comconsole and 2 if you want comconsole and vidconsole
serial=0
set -u
if [ $# -lt 2 ]; then
echo Usage: $0 source-iso-path output-img-path
exit 1
fi
isoimage=$1; shift
imgoutfile=$1; shift
# Temp directory to be used later
#export tmpdir=$(mktemp -d -t fbsdmount)
export tmpdir=$(mktemp -d /usr/fbsdmount)
export isodev=$(mdconfig -a -t vnode -f ${isoimage})
ISOSIZE=$(du -k ${isoimage} | awk '{print $1}')
SECTS=$((($ISOSIZE + ($ISOSIZE/5))*4))
#SECTS=$((($ISOSIZE + ($ISOSIZE/5))*2))
echo
echo ### Initializing image File started ###
echo ### This will take about 4 minutes ###
date
dd if=/dev/zero of=${imgoutfile} count=${SECTS}
echo ### Initializing image File completed ###
date
echo
ls -l ${imgoutfile}
export imgdev=$(mdconfig -a -t vnode -f ${imgoutfile})
bsdlabel -w -B ${imgdev}
newfs -O1 /dev/${imgdev}a
mkdir -p ${tmpdir}/iso ${tmpdir}/img
mount -t cd9660 /dev/${isodev} ${tmpdir}/iso
mount /dev/${imgdev}a ${tmpdir}/img
echo
echo ### Started Copying files to the image now ###
echo ### This will take about 10 minutes ###
date
( cd ${tmpdir}/iso find . -print -depth | cpio -dump ${tmpdir}/img )
echo ### Completed Copying files to the image ###
date
if [ ${serial} -eq 2 ]; then
echo -D ${tmpdir}/img/boot.config
echo 'console=comconsole, vidconsole'
${tmpdir}/img/boot/loader.conf
elif [ ${serial} -eq 1 ]; then
echo -h ${tmpdir}/img/boot.config
echo 'console=comconsole' ${tmpdir}/img/boot/loader.conf
fi
echo
echo ### Started writing image to flash drive now ###
echo ### This will take about 20 minutes ###
date
dd if=${imgoutfile} of=/dev/da0 bs=1m
echo ### Completed writing image to flash drive at ###
date
cleanup() {
umount ${tmpdir}/iso
mdconfig -d -u ${isodev}
umount ${tmpdir}/img
mdconfig -d -u ${imgdev}
rm -rf ${tmpdir}
}
cleanup
ls -lh ${imgoutfile}
echo ### Script finished ###
___
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switching discs during install
I just completed an install of FreeBSD 7.0 and couldn't help but wonder why it was necessary for me to switch discs back and forth so much while installing ported applications. I've used FreeBSD on and off for a number of years and this issue has always irked me a just a little bit. It means that I have to babysit the installation and it really does increase the time required to perform the installation. This is, of course, a minor issue in the grand scheme of things but it seems easy enough to remedy. I assume that as packages are installed the dependencies are checked, and then required packages are installed as necessary. When a required package is on a different disc, then the installer prompts the user to switch discs. However, it should be necessary to organize packages on the discs and during the installation such that this never occurs. In case this isn't obvious, let me give a quick supporting argument. If you were to perform an installation in which every package was installed, then the installer would eventually resolve all dependencies and produce an ordering in which every package could be installed without violating its dependencies. If we removed a package that was not required by any other package, then clearly the same ordering could still be used to install the remaining packages without violating any dependencies. By extension, any number of packages could be removed and the ordering would remain valid provided that the remaining packages did not depend on a removed package. So, if the packages are placed on the discs in this order and the installer attempts to install packages in this order, then the dependencies will always be satisfied and the user will never have to switch discs. (As an aside, this is really only to say that the dependency tree is a directional acyclic graph and it has a topological sort). There multiple orderings which satisfy this condition. Perhaps the easiest is to calculate is the ordering in which packages are sorted by the number of packages that require it. This ordering would also tend to aggregate the most common packages on the first discs. Is there a reason that this wouldn't work. Something I'm not thinking about. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching discs during install
James Strother wrote: I just completed an install of FreeBSD 7.0 and couldn't help but wonder why it was necessary for me to switch discs back and forth so much while installing ported applications. I've used FreeBSD on and off for a number of years and this issue has always irked me a just a little bit. It means that I have to babysit the installation and it really does increase the time required to perform the installation. SNIP Most people install only the base system from CD, then install applications from ports or download newer packages. If you insist on installing packages from the installation media, there is an easy way. Use the DVD: http://www.tuxdistro.com/download.php?id=921name=FreeBSD-7.0-RELEASE-DVD-ISO.torrent Or, create one yourself using your already downloaded discs: http://www.pa.msu.edu/~tigner/bsddvd.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
