Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] Irrelevant text trimmed. Long/short breakage *not* trimmed, but left as an(other) example. On Friday, 15 October 2004 at 13:33:37 -0600, Tom Connolly wrote: Giorgos Keramidas wrote: On 2004-10-15 09:35, Tom Connolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 17:09:29 -0600, Tom Connolly wrote: There is a nice little tool for Outlook users, [...] http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ Are you aware that your message was formatted with long/short lines? Looks ok to me. This is possible (see below), but you're presumably writing for others, not for yourself. To quote http://www.lemis.com/email/fixing-outlook.html: Microsoft Outlook might not be the worst mailer available, but the results delivered to non-Microsoft mailers certainly make it look that way. This may not worry Microsoft, but it should worry you: your mail is one of the ways people judge you on the net. Send out a badly formatted message like the ones in the Email format page or like Microsoft's own format breakage, and people will often think that you are incompetent or careless. Sorry but no; Greg is right. Your post *did* exhibit the long/short line bug of Outlook. That's the problem with most of the email that Outlook sends, isn't it? It looks ok to the poster but not to the reader. Long/short lines that Greg referred to is a common symptom of Outlook-formatted (or, to be more precise, `unformatted', if I am excused for the pun) messages. I've recently had the misfortune to have to use Outlook for real work. I won't start on a rant about how difficult it is to use, but I'd like to point out that it reformats text for display, wrapping lines that weren't wrapped in the original. That makes it look OK to you, but it doesn't solve the problem, and it's a breach of the RFC standards. I can't even begin to describe how many things are stupid about this format of replying. Indeed. I think I'll keep your text and add it to my own rant, if I may. What is very wrong about the wrapping style of Outlook (or the lack of one) is that Outlook users might never become aware of it. Just like you didn't know about it until Greg pointed it out ;-) That's all true but at least it solves the topposting problem which is what most People seemed to be complaining about. :) A number of things about this comment: 1. It still shows long/short. 2. I'm not sure what you're referring to, because you quoted the *entire* message. It doesn't seem to refer to the immediately preceding text. You'll note that a number of people, myself included, have drawn a distinction between top posting and bottom posting on the one hand and an appropriate interaction of original and reply on the other. It's the latter that we're hoping for. Leaving irrelevant text is always wrong. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Oct 16, 2004, at 2:00 AM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Wednesday, 13 October 2004 at 8:20:19 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Oct 12, 2004, at 6:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 8:42:39 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. I don't see a problem. What are you talking about? :-) Exactly! No, you're missing the point. IIRC (and I'm not going to check), you've again removed relevant content. Please don't bother to reply if you don't want to tell people what you're talking about. That WAS the point. I said it gets to the point where I solve it by doing this... right at the very top of this...it's still quoted. It is a tongue and cheek way of saying I erase all that originally unthreaded topposted crap and just say, What did you want? back to the sender of the email. They can send me a message stating specifically what they want so I don't need to waste my time stuttering through a stream of five messages to figure out what the heck they wanted. My alternative is to just not reply at all. Just like the first line said. I thought most people would get the joke from the thread subject being topposting :-) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Oct 18, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Oct 16, 2004, at 2:00 AM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Wednesday, 13 October 2004 at 8:20:19 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Oct 12, 2004, at 6:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 8:42:39 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. I don't see a problem. What are you talking about? :-) Exactly! No, you're missing the point. IIRC (and I'm not going to check), you've again removed relevant content. Please don't bother to reply if you don't want to tell people what you're talking about. That WAS the point. I said it gets to the point where I solve it by doing this... right at the very top of this...it's still quoted. It is a tongue and cheek way of saying I erase all that originally unthreaded topposted crap and just say, What did you want? back to the sender of the email. They can send me a message stating specifically what they want so I don't need to waste my time stuttering through a stream of five messages to figure out what the heck they wanted. My alternative is to just not reply at all. Just like the first line said. I thought most people would get the joke from the thread subject being topposting :-) Bad form to reply to myself, but I wanted to clarify that I was clarifying, not trying to sound snippy. I'm sorry if anyone interprets the message as such (I just reread it after it appeared in the mailing list and realized how snotty it sounded...wow, need more caffeine :-) Have a good day everyone! -Bart ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Wednesday, 13 October 2004 at 8:20:19 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: On Oct 12, 2004, at 6:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 8:42:39 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. I don't see a problem. What are you talking about? :-) Exactly! No, you're missing the point. IIRC (and I'm not going to check), you've again removed relevant content. Please don't bother to reply if you don't want to tell people what you're talking about. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 17:09:29 -0600, Tom Connolly wrote: Top posting is generally frowned-upon. People who indulge in it are shown to be Microsoft Outlook users, because that is the default of Outlook. There is a nice little tool for Outlook users, created by Dominik Jain, that will modify An MS Outlook message to allow for correct quoting. Just hit forward, reply or reply all And the tool does the rest... http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ We've seen the results of this tool in the recent past. They weren't convincing. Are you aware that your message was formatted with long/short lines? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 17:09:29 -0600, Tom Connolly wrote: Top posting is generally frowned-upon. People who indulge in it are shown to be Microsoft Outlook users, because that is the default of Outlook. There is a nice little tool for Outlook users, created by Dominik Jain, that will modify An MS Outlook message to allow for correct quoting. Just hit forward, reply or reply all And the tool does the rest... http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ We've seen the results of this tool in the recent past. They weren't convincing. Are you aware that your message was formatted with long/short lines? Greg Looks ok to me. Tom ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On 2004-10-15 09:35, Tom Connolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 17:09:29 -0600, Tom Connolly wrote: There is a nice little tool for Outlook users, [...] http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ We've seen the results of this tool in the recent past. They weren't convincing. Are you aware that your message was formatted with long/short lines? Looks ok to me. Sorry but no; Greg is right. Your post *did* exhibit the long/short line bug of Outlook. That's the problem with most of the email that Outlook sends, isn't it? It looks ok to the poster but not to the reader. Long/short lines that Greg referred to is a common symptom of Outlook-formatted (or, to be more precise, `unformatted', if I am excused for the pun) messages. You, as the poster write a paragraph that seems perfectly fine when wrapper in your preview window in Outlook, but eventually the reader of your post has to make sense out of something like this: - Original message - Sender: Firstname Lastname Sent: Oct 15, 2004 Subject: Useless repetition of the subject, which is only a waste of bandwidth for people with a good, threading mail user-agent To: Person1; Person2; Person3 Cc: Person4; Person5 Some of the original text is included here, most of the time everything the original poster has said is included verbatim, without any sort of trimming and a funny wrapping style like this mess you are reading now. I can't even begin to describe how many things are stupid about this format of replying. The stripping of *real* email addresses, the redundant and excessive inclusion of header information in the attribution paragraph, the fact that the attribution *is* a paragraph, the silly wrapping style, etc. are only a few of the evil things this mailer does. Unfortunately, despite having discussed this with Windows users many times and tested various tools, hacks and add-ons with many of them, I still haven't found one that fixes all the bugs in Outlook's formatting of mail messages; ``outlook-quotefix'' is not an exception to this. What is very wrong about the wrapping style of Outlook (or the lack of one) is that Outlook users might never become aware of it. Just like you didn't know about it until Greg pointed it out ;-) Giorgos ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
Giorgos Keramidas wrote: On 2004-10-15 09:35, Tom Connolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 17:09:29 -0600, Tom Connolly wrote: There is a nice little tool for Outlook users, [...] http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ We've seen the results of this tool in the recent past. They weren't convincing. Are you aware that your message was formatted with long/short lines? Looks ok to me. Sorry but no; Greg is right. Your post *did* exhibit the long/short line bug of Outlook. That's the problem with most of the email that Outlook sends, isn't it? It looks ok to the poster but not to the reader. Long/short lines that Greg referred to is a common symptom of Outlook-formatted (or, to be more precise, `unformatted', if I am excused for the pun) messages. You, as the poster write a paragraph that seems perfectly fine when wrapper in your preview window in Outlook, but eventually the reader of your post has to make sense out of something like this: - Original message - Sender: Firstname Lastname Sent: Oct 15, 2004 Subject: Useless repetition of the subject, which is only a waste of bandwidth for people with a good, threading mail user-agent To: Person1; Person2; Person3 Cc: Person4; Person5 Some of the original text is included here, most of the time everything the original poster has said is included verbatim, without any sort of trimming and a funny wrapping style like this mess you are reading now. I can't even begin to describe how many things are stupid about this format of replying. The stripping of *real* email addresses, the redundant and excessive inclusion of header information in the attribution paragraph, the fact that the attribution *is* a paragraph, the silly wrapping style, etc. are only a few of the evil things this mailer does. Unfortunately, despite having discussed this with Windows users many times and tested various tools, hacks and add-ons with many of them, I still haven't found one that fixes all the bugs in Outlook's formatting of mail messages; ``outlook-quotefix'' is not an exception to this. What is very wrong about the wrapping style of Outlook (or the lack of one) is that Outlook users might never become aware of it. Just like you didn't know about it until Greg pointed it out ;-) Giorgos That's all true but at least it solves the topposting problem which is what most People seemed to be complaining about. :) Tom ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Oct 12, 2004, at 6:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 8:42:39 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. I don't see a problem. What are you talking about? :-) Exactly! ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:20:19 -0400, Bart Silverstrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 12, 2004, at 6:44 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 8:42:39 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. I don't see a problem. What are you talking about? :-) Exactly! It may also help if you put the good ole hyphen hyphen space enter' decent e-mail clients should see this as the start of a sig an will remove anything below it, i know thunderbird and even gmail does, so it tidys up the default sig at the end of each post. -- Theres no place like ::1 Thanks, SimonB ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Wed, Oct 13, 2004 at 01:58:28PM +0100, Simon Burke wrote: It may also help if you put the good ole hyphen hyphen space enter' decent e-mail clients should see this as the start of a sig an will remove anything below it, i know thunderbird and even gmail does, so it tidys up the default sig at the end of each post. For those using Mutt with Vim as their editor, toss this into your .vimrc: Delete quoted .sig's au BufRead /tmp/mutt-* normal :g/^ -- .*/,/^$/-1d to accomplish roughly the same thing. -T -- There is no such thing as 'social gambling.' Either you are there to cut the other bloke's heart out and eat it -- or you're a sucker. If you don't like this choice -- don't gamble. -- Robert Heinlein ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
GNU ls can be found in sysutils/coreutils port. (please don't top post) huh? Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting it says you're old... just joking :) I find it quite irritating that i have to scroll down everytime I read an email... Is top posting a policy on the FBSD list? -- http://freebsdwiki.org/ - Encrypted mail welcome - keyid 0xBF15490B A: No. Q: Should I include quotations after my reply? - Nick Moffitt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On 2004-10-12 14:06, FreeBSD questions mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting I find it quite irritating that i have to scroll down everytime I read an email. If you spend a few seconds, every time you post, to trim the material you're replying to, removing signatures, cutting off parts that are irrelevant to your reply, you shouldn't have to scroll through pages of text to read the reply. Bottom-posting works well only if you combine it with a careful style of quoted text trimming. If you just copy/paste the entire message you're replying to and add a couple of lines after its end, it's silly, annoying and a total waste of bandwidth; exactly like top-posting and quoting the replied messages in its entirety. Is top posting a policy on the FBSD list? Yes, it's the norm. There are notable exceptions that show up from time to time[1], but the majority of the posters to all the freebsd.org mailing lists use bottom-posting. You're not going to be shouted at for top-posting, but it *is* annoying, so it would be nice if you didn't. [1] Jordan Hubbard, a very respectful and promiment members of the FreeBSD community, uses top-posting. I've seen others top-post too, like Matt Dillon, Julian Elischer, etc. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On 12 okt 2004, at 14:12, Andy Smith wrote: Off-list because this is likely to turn into a flame war... On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 02:06:19PM +0200, FreeBSD questions mailing list wrote: Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting it says you're old... just joking :) I find it quite irritating that i have to scroll down everytime I read an email... In a properly-written email, useless quotes would be removed, so you wouldn't have to scroll down very far. I can live with that. Writing in between the questions like we do here is accepted as well? Is top posting a policy on the FBSD list? Top posting is generally frowned-upon. People who indulge in it are shown to be Microsoft Outlook users, because that is the default of Outlook. Mac OSX's Mail does the same thing... ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. :-) -Bart ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
Is top posting a policy on the FBSD list? Yes, it's the norm. There are notable exceptions that show up from time to time[1], but the majority of the posters to all the freebsd.org mailing lists use bottom-posting. You're not going to be shouted at for top-posting, but it *is* annoying, so it would be nice if you didn't. [1] Jordan Hubbard, a very respectful and promiment members of the FreeBSD community, uses top-posting. I've seen others top-post too, like Matt Dillon, Julian Elischer, etc. Ok, I'll be top-posting from now an then :) thanks for showing me the light Arno ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On 12 okt 2004, at 14:47, FreeBSD questions mailing list wrote: Is top posting a policy on the FBSD list? Yes, it's the norm. There are notable exceptions that show up from time to time[1], but the majority of the posters to all the freebsd.org mailing lists use bottom-posting. You're not going to be shouted at for top-posting, but it *is* annoying, so it would be nice if you didn't. [1] Jordan Hubbard, a very respectful and promiment members of the FreeBSD community, uses top-posting. I've seen others top-post too, like Matt Dillon, Julian Elischer, etc. Ok, I'll be top-posting from now an then :) thanks for showing me the light Arno ehm, WON'T of course ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
GNU ls can be found in sysutils/coreutils port. (please don't top post) huh? Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting it says you're old... just joking :) I find it quite irritating that i have to scroll down everytime I read an email... I find it irritating to have to scroll back and forth just to figure out the context of a post and reply.So, unless the response is just a general comment, not directly responding to the previous post, then insert your response where it responds best to the previous post. jerry Is top posting a policy on the FBSD list? NOT top posting is the policy. /jrm -- http://freebsdwiki.org/ - Encrypted mail welcome - keyid 0xBF15490B A: No. Q: Should I include quotations after my reply? - Nick Moffitt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Tuesday, 12 October 2004 at 8:42:39 -0400, Bart Silverstrim wrote: It gets to a point where I solve it by doing this or just no reply at all. Problem solved. I don't see a problem. What are you talking about? From the weekly posting: 7. Include relevant text from the original message. Trim it to the minimum, but don't overdo it. It should still be possible for somebody who didn't read the original message to understand what you're talking about. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers. pgpAWLIS86bpz.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 02:50:57PM +0200, FreeBSD questions mailing list said: Ok, I'll be top-posting from now an then :) thanks for showing me the light Arno ehm, WON'T of course Yeah, but don't forget to trim all the crap at the bottom aswell: ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers! -- Adam Smith Internode : http://www.internode.on.net Phone : (08) 8228 2999 Dog for sale: Eats lots and is fond of children. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: topposting (was: colourization in ls command)
On Oct 12, 2004, at 5:46 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: Top posting is generally frowned-upon. People who indulge in it are shown to be Microsoft Outlook users, because that is the default of Outlook. Mac OSX's Mail does the same thing... If moving the cursor is that difficult, you're probably using the wrong tool. It is correct for the cursor to be placed at the top when forming a reply because that is where one is supposed to start EDITING. The primary flaw of the top-posting disease is that top-posters don't bother to read the entire message which they are re-sending. Had a sane person actually read all the bulk in their own reply one would not re-send it under their own name. If its not worth being read then why send it again? Things would not be any better if the cursor were placed at the bottom and top-posters started typing there without trimming the quoted bulk. If the cursor were at the bottom one would have to scroll to the top to start trimming. Trimming is a matter of courtesy to the reader and respect for the mail list host. Sadly, trimming skills are lacking among top-posters. In MacOS X's Mail.app all one has to do is hit the end key and click the mouse wherever one wishes to type. Or wherever one wishes to start trimming. Even better yet just click-drag highlight the section one wishes to reply to, press Apple-R or click a Reply button, and only that highlighted section is quote-pasted into the reply. Makes it practical to reply to a message in a digest. When I work for free, others who desire my services will honor my format demand or be ignored. -- David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Top-posters will not be shown the honor of a reply. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
