Re: Deprecating base system ftpd?
It makes me think that there should be an offering for two completely different audiences: (1) FreeBSD core (a very minimal offering for folks that want to build things, like a Desktop, etc.) (2) FreeBSD server (an offering for folks that want a server build) Perhaps that idea is just unreasonably crazy as well. Best Regards, Vic Thacker On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, at 01:05, Chris wrote: > On 2021-04-07 23:27, aventa...@fastmail.fm wrote: > > I think folks have different definitions of what an operating system should > > be. > Agreed. > > > > An Operating System (OS) is an interface between a computer user and > > computer > > hardware. An operating system is a software which performs all the basic > > tasks > > like file management, memory management, process management, handling input > > and > > output, and controlling peripheral devices such as disk drives and printers. > > > > If you add or take away from the above definition, then there is your > > misunderstanding. > IMHO many refer to Linux as an Operating System. When in fact it is a Kernel. > Which > is also what you describe above. > OTOH, UNIX as an OS has a defined set of commands available, as well as > servers to > facilitate running a fully installed server. Which is what I believe he was > referring to. > > At this point I think this thread is becoming tiresome. ;-) > > --Chris > > > > Best Regards, > > Vic Thacker > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, at 21:17, tech-lists wrote: > >> Hi, I'm a bit late to the discussion > >> > >> On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 07:44:59AM -0700, Cy Schubert wrote: > >> > >> >I think this is an excellent start. My shopping list includes: > >> > > >> >- remove ftp(1) > >> >- remove ftpd(8) > >> >- remove telnet(1) > >> >- remove telnetd(8) > >> >- remove ftp:// and http:// from libfetch. This is 2021 and we should all > >> >use https://. > >> >- replace DNS lookups with DoH and/or DoT. Why let your ISP see your DNS > >> >traffic? > >> > >> Very firmly against this, and this sort of thing, for the following > >> reasons: > >> > >> 1. I want an OS, not a kernel. If I just want a kernel, then why not go > >> with linux? FreeBSD is meant to be, I think, (generally), a server OS. > >> So, would you agree that it needs the ability to have server protocols > >> easily configured, with a minimum of fuss, without packages? > >> > >> 2. a lot of infrastructure depends on ftpd. it's easy to configure > >> securely ftpd in base. > >> > >> 3. there are some networks, like internal ones, where encryption is not > >> a requirement, or appropriate. > >> > >> 4. there are some places where encryption is in fact illegal. > >> > >> >Personally, I'd suggest we remove the ftpd server *AND* ftp client and > >> >rely > >> >on ports. Having worked on UNIX, Internet security, and firewalls over the > >> >last 3/5 of my almost 50 year career, I have lamented the existence of the > >> >FTP protocol back in 1995 and I hate the FTP protocol with greater a > >> >passion today. Let's simply remove all vestiges of FTP from the base > >> >system, including libfetch, sooner than later. We don't need it now that > >> >we > >> >have HTTPS and POST; and sftp. > >> > >> 5. some services commonly don't use https. Lots of internet radio > >> stations don't. If https is enforced then the user will have to jump > >> through more hoops than they already do in order to, in this case, > >> listen to internet radio. Or face a loss of functionality. > >> > >> 6. not everywhere will have constant internet access. Not everyone will > >> want to use pkgs or have space for the ports tree. > >> > >> >I think we should make it our goal to remove any and all unencrypted > >> >protocols from FreeBSD by 2025. > >> > >> I think you should carefully think of the consequences of removing > >> functionality in the default install. It will make it less useful, not > >> more. > >> -- > >> J. > >> > >> Attachments: > >> * signature.asc > > ___ > > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Deprecating base system ftpd?
I think folks have different definitions of what an operating system should be. An Operating System (OS) is an interface between a computer user and computer hardware. An operating system is a software which performs all the basic tasks like file management, memory management, process management, handling input and output, and controlling peripheral devices such as disk drives and printers. If you add or take away from the above definition, then there is your misunderstanding. Best Regards, Vic Thacker On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, at 21:17, tech-lists wrote: > Hi, I'm a bit late to the discussion > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 07:44:59AM -0700, Cy Schubert wrote: > > >I think this is an excellent start. My shopping list includes: > > > >- remove ftp(1) > >- remove ftpd(8) > >- remove telnet(1) > >- remove telnetd(8) > >- remove ftp:// and http:// from libfetch. This is 2021 and we should all > >use https://. > >- replace DNS lookups with DoH and/or DoT. Why let your ISP see your DNS > >traffic? > > Very firmly against this, and this sort of thing, for the following reasons: > > 1. I want an OS, not a kernel. If I just want a kernel, then why not go > with linux? FreeBSD is meant to be, I think, (generally), a server OS. > So, would you agree that it needs the ability to have server protocols > easily configured, with a minimum of fuss, without packages? > > 2. a lot of infrastructure depends on ftpd. it's easy to configure > securely ftpd in base. > > 3. there are some networks, like internal ones, where encryption is not > a requirement, or appropriate. > > 4. there are some places where encryption is in fact illegal. > > >Personally, I'd suggest we remove the ftpd server *AND* ftp client and rely > >on ports. Having worked on UNIX, Internet security, and firewalls over the > >last 3/5 of my almost 50 year career, I have lamented the existence of the > >FTP protocol back in 1995 and I hate the FTP protocol with greater a > >passion today. Let's simply remove all vestiges of FTP from the base > >system, including libfetch, sooner than later. We don't need it now that we > >have HTTPS and POST; and sftp. > > 5. some services commonly don't use https. Lots of internet radio > stations don't. If https is enforced then the user will have to jump > through more hoops than they already do in order to, in this case, > listen to internet radio. Or face a loss of functionality. > > 6. not everywhere will have constant internet access. Not everyone will > want to use pkgs or have space for the ports tree. > > >I think we should make it our goal to remove any and all unencrypted > >protocols from FreeBSD by 2025. > > I think you should carefully think of the consequences of removing > functionality in the default install. It will make it less useful, not > more. > -- > J. > > Attachments: > * signature.asc ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Deprecating base system ftpd?
Deprecating base system ftpd does seem to be a good idea, especially for FreeBSD users wanting to use their computer as a workstation/desktop instead of as a server. I think the argument becomes, "who is our target audience?" If the target audience is both server and desktop users, then minimizing the base system makes a lot of sense. FreeBSD is not just for servers anymore. Best Regards, Vic Thacker On Tue, Apr 6, 2021, at 17:21, Gerald de la Pascua wrote: > +1 again from me too, keep it, > > It seems a pointless change of something that it seems a reasonable number > of people are still using, even if there are better tools now, > > G > > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Ted Hatfield wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Apr 2021, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > >> Am 03.04.2021 um 22:39 schrieb Ed Maste : > > >> I'm happy to make a port for it if anyone needs it. Comments? > > > > > > A bit late to the party, but my take is: please just don't. > > > > > > I absolutely freaked out when Apple removed the telnet and ftp clients > > > from Mac OS and I needed to reinstall them via MacPorts. > > > > > > People who manage any larger collection of networking gear *depend* > > > on these outdated but simple services. Client and server side alike. > > > > > > TFTP is not going away, neither is FTP. I'm dead serious. Remote media > > > via Supermicro IPMI in 2021? SMB1. Firmware updates for my UPS? FTP. > > > Scanner/printer/fax all-in-one thingy? Uploads received fax transmissions > > > via FTP. PBX? Uploads usage reports via FTP. This stuff is here to stay. > > > In local networks, of course. > > > > > > But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for > > customers > > > of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key > > is. > > > Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over > > more > > > than 20 years ... > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > Patrick > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Hear! Hear! > > > > Although I don't have any statistics to back this up this > > has been my experience as well. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Ted Hatfield > > > > ___ > > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
