Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 23:45, Mark Kirkwood wrote: I would certainly see the installer handling software RAID as a considerable benefit. From what I've seen on the net, to install and boot off RAIDed system disks is quite fiddly (maybe gmirror is the exception here, as I've mainly been looking at striping). Cheers Mark geom changed this complications definitely, using gmirror or gstripe commands is easy as copying a file. Probably one of the most important things that with vinum as example it was not possible to mirror a root partition but since gmirror places the metadata different we can have now a mirrored and bootable root partition. Striping with ccd and vinum or mirroring was certainly a pain even if it worked then stable and reliable. So in comparism the easy use of geom is great and the people which developed geom did a really fantastic job. João Joao, I do agree that gmirror is not that bad and not that difficult. But take a look at how to setup a fresh system using gmirror (slice by slice mirroring): - install a complete system to a fresh disc - create the (well sized) slices on a 2nd disc (not that easy) - create the gmirror set on disc 2 - bring gmirror up - copy all filesystems over to the gmirror set - reboot - create exactly sized slices on disc 1 - insert everything into the gmirror set Using that procedure you're going to copy each installed file three times (install, copy to mirror, sync mirror). That's a waste of time compared to a solution where the installer would be able to install directly into a mirror. When using disc based gmirror (instead of per slice gmirror) the procedure is a bit easier, but similar. If one could create a gmirror set before installing the base system and tell the installer to install into gmX instead of adX/daX, the whole procedure would be much easier and would take less time. I've had to setup a handful of fresh systems over the last months and it was a pain to manually setup gmirror on each fresh system. Greetings, Volker ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Tuesday 07 March 2006 08:55, Volker wrote: I do agree that gmirror is not that bad and not that difficult. But take a look at how to setup a fresh system using gmirror (slice by slice mirroring): - install a complete system to a fresh disc - create the (well sized) slices on a 2nd disc (not that easy) - create the gmirror set on disc 2 - bring gmirror up - copy all filesystems over to the gmirror set - reboot - create exactly sized slices on disc 1 - insert everything into the gmirror set Using that procedure you're going to copy each installed file three times (install, copy to mirror, sync mirror). That's a waste of time compared to a solution where the installer would be able to install directly into a mirror. When using disc based gmirror (instead of per slice gmirror) the procedure is a bit easier, but similar. Hi there is no need to copy anything around ... - you do install the system as usual - before rebooting you create the to be mirrored disk with the gmirror label command (you do not loose data here) - then you change your fstab acordingly - you reboot - you insert the mirror disk(s) - gmirror should start syncing automatically if you did everything right ready, this is a 3 minute thing João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Hi! On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 09:39:29AM -0300, JoaoBR wrote: there is no need to copy anything around ... - you do install the system as usual - before rebooting you create the to be mirrored disk with the gmirror label command (you do not loose data here) - then you change your fstab acordingly - you reboot - you insert the mirror disk(s) - gmirror should start syncing automatically if you did everything right ready, this is a 3 minute thing Are there instructions on how to do this to mirror a slice instead of an entire disk? Thanks, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Internet - Dienstleistungen - Beratung Vorholzstr. 25Tel. 0721 9109 -0 Fax: -100 76137 Karlsruhe http://punkt.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Patrick, On 2006-03-07 13:45, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: . Are there instructions on how to do this to mirror a slice instead of an entire disk? Thanks, Patrick Yes, Ralf S. Engelschall created a good guide: http://people.freebsd.org/~rse/mirror/ See 'GEOM mirror Approach 2: Single Slice, Preferred, More Flexible' Greetings, Volker ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Hello! On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:56:57PM +0100, Volker wrote: Patrick, On 2006-03-07 13:45, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: . Are there instructions on how to do this to mirror a slice instead of an entire disk? Thanks, Patrick Yes, Ralf S. Engelschall created a good guide: http://people.freebsd.org/~rse/mirror/ See 'GEOM mirror Approach 2: Single Slice, Preferred, More Flexible' I _know_. This guide was first mentioned by me in this thread. But it assumes - install - boot - create mirror on second disk - copy data - reboot - sync mirror Now Joao said, creating a mirrored disk can be done from the emergency holographic shell at install time. OK, fine. Spares the copying. My question was: can I create a mirrored slice instead of a mirrored disk without copying the data at install time from the emergency shell? Otherwise I will still have to use Ralf's instructions, which are a bit more work to follow. Thanks, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Internet - Dienstleistungen - Beratung Vorholzstr. 25Tel. 0721 9109 -0 Fax: -100 76137 Karlsruhe http://punkt.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Patrick, On 2006-03-07 14:22, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: Hello! On Tue, Mar 07, 2006 at 01:56:57PM +0100, Volker wrote: Patrick, On 2006-03-07 13:45, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: . Are there instructions on how to do this to mirror a slice instead of an entire disk? Thanks, Patrick Yes, Ralf S. Engelschall created a good guide: http://people.freebsd.org/~rse/mirror/ See 'GEOM mirror Approach 2: Single Slice, Preferred, More Flexible' I _know_. This guide was first mentioned by me in this thread. But it assumes - install - boot - create mirror on second disk - copy data - reboot - sync mirror Now Joao said, creating a mirrored disk can be done from the emergency holographic shell at install time. OK, fine. Spares the copying. My question was: can I create a mirrored slice instead of a mirrored disk without copying the data at install time from the emergency shell? Otherwise I will still have to use Ralf's instructions, which are a bit more work to follow. Thanks, Patrick As far as I understand Joao's solution, he's mentioning disc mirroring (disc in a whole). When using slice mirroring I don't see a simple solution and RSE's paper is the only way to go. Anybody please correct me if I'm wrong. Greetings, Volker ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Tue, March 7, 2006 4:39 am, JoaoBR wrote: On Tuesday 07 March 2006 08:55, Volker wrote: I do agree that gmirror is not that bad and not that difficult. But take a look at how to setup a fresh system using gmirror (slice by slice mirroring): - install a complete system to a fresh disc - create the (well sized) slices on a 2nd disc (not that easy) - create the gmirror set on disc 2 - bring gmirror up - copy all filesystems over to the gmirror set - reboot - create exactly sized slices on disc 1 - insert everything into the gmirror set Using that procedure you're going to copy each installed file three times (install, copy to mirror, sync mirror). That's a waste of time compared to a solution where the installer would be able to install directly into a mirror. There's no need to copy files around. gmirror handles it all for you behind the scenes. Just create the gmirror labels using the existing disks/slices/partitions, then insert the second set of disks/slices/parittions. gmirror will handle synchonising the data across the mirror. When using disc based gmirror (instead of per slice gmirror) the procedure is a bit easier, but similar. there is no need to copy anything around ... - you do install the system as usual - before rebooting you create the to be mirrored disk with the gmirror label command (you do not loose data here) - then you change your fstab acordingly - you reboot - you insert the mirror disk(s) - gmirror should start syncing automatically if you did everything right realy, this is a 3 minute thing This is the process I just went through. It would be nice if there was a post-install step that did this automatically, but it wasn't all that hard to do manually. Just CTRL+F4 to open the terminal, run a few commands to create the mirror, edit /etc/fstab, and exit the installer. Dru Lavigne's OnLamp article about this makes it almost trivial to do. Freddie Cash [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Hello! On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 06:58:50PM -0800, George Hartzell wrote: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html When the mirror is up and running, cvsup, buildworld, buildkernel, installkernel, installworld, mergemaster, reboot, enjoy ;-) I think that the instructions in the above mentioned article mildly incorrect in that they enable soft-updates when they newfs the root partition. AFAIK soft-updates don't put your root partition at risk _directly_. You might run into problems, _if_ your root partition is rather small, during installworld/installkernel. This is due to the delayed freeing of data blocks when files are erased. So your root partition might fill up even if there should be plenty of space. This has _never_ happened to me, though. My root partitions are all at least 128 M in size and /var is _always_ separate and /tmp is a symlink to /var/tmp. I didn't notice that in Ralf's script, because I didn't copy it verbatim ;-) Just used it as a guid through the process. I did configure quite a few servers with soft-updates on all partitions, when soft-updates were rather new and I was excited about the performance gain and didn't know about the possible problems with / - as I said, I never had a single problem with that setup. Regards, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Internet - Dienstleistungen - Beratung Vorholzstr. 25Tel. 0721 9109 -0 Fax: -100 76137 Karlsruhe http://punkt.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Monday 06 March 2006 08:41, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: AFAIK soft-updates don't put your root partition at risk _directly_. You might run into problems, _if_ your root partition is rather small, during installworld/installkernel. This is due to the delayed freeing of data blocks when files are erased. So your root partition might fill up even if there should be plenty of space. I believe that softupdates is usefull only for partitions where writing ocurres what normally is not the case on the root partition This has _never_ happened to me, though. My root partitions are all at least 128 M in size and /var is _always_ separate and /tmp is a symlink to /var/tmp. this is a good idea but not default, standard install suggest a small /tmp partition I guess what probably is even better if you expect lots of r/w on it I did configure quite a few servers with soft-updates on all partitions, when soft-updates were rather new and I was excited about the performance gain and didn't know about the possible problems with / - as I said, I never had a single problem with that setup. softupdate except for / is the default I guess so you do not need to enable it João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Hi! On Mon, Mar 06, 2006 at 10:26:53AM -0300, JoaoBR wrote: I did configure quite a few servers with soft-updates on all partitions, when soft-updates were rather new and I was excited about the performance gain and didn't know about the possible problems with / - as I said, I never had a single problem with that setup. softupdate except for / is the default I guess so you do not need to enable it It is the default _now_. I started using soft-updates when you still needed to change some kernel files and recompile to activate it at all. FreeBSD since 1.0 ;-) Regards, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Internet - Dienstleistungen - Beratung Vorholzstr. 25Tel. 0721 9109 -0 Fax: -100 76137 Karlsruhe http://punkt.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Sunday 05 March 2006 01:22, Mark Kirkwood wrote: JoaoBR wrote: geom changed this complications definitely, using gmirror or gstripe commands is easy as copying a file. (Chuckles) - While I see your point, I see that Ralf E's article discussing this very issue weighs in at about a page worth of instructions for *each* of the two methods discussed. Now, sure, he's being pedantically careful so no-one will misunderstand and murder their systems - but ISTM that this is the sort of task that ideally an installer could/should handle. The argument of 'its only a few commands...' does not really stand up - as (for instance) it could be equally applied to that installer providing package installation - and it seems to have that facility (thankfully!). good point, probably it is much easier as thought to integrate as script into the installer where one can chose the disks/partitions to gmirror/gstripe them and put it beside other options in Startup Options I never felt the need and probably would not use the option either and will configure my config manually later as I do with named or others So in comparism the easy use of geom is great and the people which developed geom did a really fantastic job. I agree, as the geom based applications are maturing, we are starting to see that benefit of the geom infrastructure. for me this happened already. I use gmirror for almost a year now and I changed all vinum setups and I never had a serious problem with it. I have to say that I never tried IDE or SATA, only SCSI with Adaptec. João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Monday 06 March 2006 10:34, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: Hi! On Mon, Mar 06, 2006 at 10:26:53AM -0300, JoaoBR wrote: I did configure quite a few servers with soft-updates on all partitions, when soft-updates were rather new and I was excited about the performance gain and didn't know about the possible problems with / - as I said, I never had a single problem with that setup. softupdate except for / is the default I guess so you do not need to enable it It is the default _now_. I started using soft-updates when you still needed to change some kernel files and recompile to activate it at all. FreeBSD since 1.0 ;-) well well, better to say nothing but this is freebsd-stable in 2006 ... :S João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 23:45, Mark Kirkwood wrote: I would certainly see the installer handling software RAID as a considerable benefit. From what I've seen on the net, to install and boot off RAIDed system disks is quite fiddly (maybe gmirror is the exception here, as I've mainly been looking at striping). Cheers Mark geom changed this complications definitely, using gmirror or gstripe commands is easy as copying a file. Probably one of the most important things that with vinum as example it was not possible to mirror a root partition but since gmirror places the metadata different we can have now a mirrored and bootable root partition. Striping with ccd and vinum or mirroring was certainly a pain even if it worked then stable and reliable. So in comparism the easy use of geom is great and the people which developed geom did a really fantastic job. João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
JoaoBR wrote: On Friday 03 March 2006 23:45, Mark Kirkwood wrote: I would certainly see the installer handling software RAID as a considerable benefit. From what I've seen on the net, to install and boot off RAIDed system disks is quite fiddly (maybe gmirror is the exception here, as I've mainly been looking at striping). Cheers Mark geom changed this complications definitely, using gmirror or gstripe commands is easy as copying a file. (Chuckles) - While I see your point, I see that Ralf E's article discussing this very issue weighs in at about a page worth of instructions for *each* of the two methods discussed. Now, sure, he's being pedantically careful so no-one will misunderstand and murder their systems - but ISTM that this is the sort of task that ideally an installer could/should handle. The argument of 'its only a few commands...' does not really stand up - as (for instance) it could be equally applied to that installer providing package installation - and it seems to have that facility (thankfully!). So in comparism the easy use of geom is great and the people which developed geom did a really fantastic job. I agree, as the geom based applications are maturing, we are starting to see that benefit of the geom infrastructure. Cheers Mark ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Hello! Since you have the luxury of doing this at install time, check out the instructions at: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/11/10/FreeBSD_Basics.html?page=1 It worked for me and I think it's more like what you want than the http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html approach which is good for converting a system to gmirror. Keep in mind that this gives you a mirrored ad0 (or da0), not a mirrored ad0s1 (or da0s1) like Ralf's instructions. So you must replace a failed disk with one of the same size. With Ralf's approach you can get any model of equal or bigger size and just adjust s1 accordingly. HTH, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Internet - Dienstleistungen - Beratung Vorholzstr. 25Tel. 0721 9109 -0 Fax: -100 76137 Karlsruhe http://punkt.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 00:01, Mike Jakubik wrote: Because most Linux distributions have had this feature for a while now. It's no secret that our installer blows. It gets the job done for a basic install, provided you know its quirks, and thats it. I don't think that having or not a raid option at install time is classifying the installer as behind nor I think it is important. Freebsd's installer probably lacks a nice look but on the other side it is clear and direct and you get without lots of questions and blabla the system up and running in 5-10 minutes what certainly is straight forward and not behind. What would be the advantage to have raid as OS install option? Certainly such option confuse average users which probably do not know what raid is. I think the advantage is clear. You don't have to waste time installing the OS, then going through a complex procedure to setup RAID, and reinstalling again, i think that would confuse average users more. Besides, FreeBSD is a server operating system, and is not intended for average users. The only advantage I can see is when you really want raid at install time and that definitly is not usual. Even if *your* opinion is that Freebsd is not intended for average users it is used by thousends of them. Setting up raid with gmirror on FBSD is as easy as dd'ing an image to a floppy disk so I do not see where you wast your time - still less since you do not need to reinstall the OS again. So who is confused here is you. If you don't know what RAID is, you shouldn't be in IT. well well, if you don't know shut up is definitly a wise comment and helps people learning ... this thought is so far behind as when people still walked on all four. João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 03:01, Mike Jakubik wrote: JoaoBR wrote: On Thursday 02 March 2006 22:59, Mike Jakubik wrote: Thats what i figured. Its sad that the fbsd installer is so behind the linux ones, in terms of setting up raid and lvm during install. I'm sorry that such things make you sad but do you mind to explain why this is behind ? Because most Linux distributions have had this feature for a while now. It's no secret that our installer blows. It gets the job done for a basic install, provided you know its quirks, and thats it. Hm. I don't believe that's true. In the last couple of months, I've had occasion to attempt installation of Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo and FreeBSD the same box. (And HP-UX and Solaris on different ones slightly less recently) Gentoo was dreadful. Dumping a user at a command prompt may appeal to the geek-machismo types, but not I think to anyone who has to work for a living. CDROM - trash. Ubuntu uses/used the Debian installer. Debian I've got used to. (In that it's filled with gotchas, so it takes a couple of false starts to get a useful system.) Yes, it's got alleged RAID and LVM options in the disk-setup menus. However, I've never been able to make them work. I'd rather things were absent from an installer, rather than there being tantalising options that raise false hope. From what I remember, the Solaris installer is fairly pretty and works well, while the HP example is somewhat messy. The mirroring instructions for both those OSes assumed you'd a working system first. Mind, a GEOM-aware installer is an attactive WIBNI... I'm also not sure that the onward march of disk-size is strictly relevant. Were I building a PC-based RAID, I'd make sure I bought an appropriately-sized spare disk at the same time as the rest of the set. -- JH-R ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Thu, Mar 02, 2006 at 06:23:37PM -0500, Mike Jakubik wrote: Is it possible to boot off the install CD, setup a gmirror, and then reboot and install on the mirror (and expect things to work ok)? Anyone try this? It would be nice if the installer let you do this... It could be possible, I think... Have you tried to load geom_mirror.ko first? -- Spartak Radchenko SVR1-RIPE ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
JoaoBR wrote: On Friday 03 March 2006 00:01, Mike Jakubik wrote: Because most Linux distributions have had this feature for a while now. It's no secret that our installer blows. It gets the job done for a basic install, provided you know its quirks, and thats it. I don't think that having or not a raid option at install time is classifying the installer as behind nor I think it is important. Freebsd's installer probably lacks a nice look but on the other side it is clear and direct and you get without lots of questions and blabla the system up and running in 5-10 minutes what certainly is straight forward and not behind. Well, thats your opinion, which i doubt many people share. The only advantage I can see is when you really want raid at install time and that definitly is not usual. What planet are you from? It's very usual. You setup RAID before you copy data to the array, not the other way around. Even if *your* opinion is that Freebsd is not intended for average users it is used by thousends of them. I seriously doubt they don't know what RAID is. Setting up raid with gmirror on FBSD is as easy as dd'ing an image to a floppy disk so I do not see where you wast your time - still less since you do not need to reinstall the OS again. So who is confused here is you. You fail to see the point, please don't get involved on this topic any more. I didn't ask to debate the above advantages, with people that don't have a clue what they are talking about. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Mike Jakubik wrote: Patrick M. Hausen wrote: Hello! Is it possible to boot off the install CD, setup a gmirror, and then reboot and install on the mirror (and expect things to work ok)? Anyone try this? It would be nice if the installer let you do this... AFAIK, no. Install a minimal system on the first disk, then follow these instructions: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html Thats what i figured. Its sad that the fbsd installer is so behind the linux ones, in terms of setting up raid and lvm during install. Someone could be funded to work on this like the TCP/IP performance project. I'd be willing to make a donation, as I am sure you would Mike. All that is required is a willing + able person and enough donations to make it worth his or her while. Volunteers? ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dom ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Dominic Marks wrote: Someone could be funded to work on this like the TCP/IP performance project. I'd be willing to make a donation, as I am sure you would Mike. All that is required is a willing + able person and enough donations to make it worth his or her while. Volunteers? Well, there is the google summer of code project, and one of the projects is a new installer. http://wikitest.freebsd.org/moin.cgi/BSDInstaller Andrew, have you considered adding support for creating geom based raid/lvm to the bsd installer? ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
I think the FreeBSD approach is fairly typical - you get the OS running and then mirror it. On Fri, 2006-Mar-03 10:43:26 +, John Hawkes-Reed wrote: From what I remember, the Solaris installer is fairly pretty and works well, while the HP example is somewhat messy. The mirroring instructions for both those OSes assumed you'd a working system first. For software RAID (Solaris DiskSuite aka Volume Manager, Tru64 LSM), both Solaris and Tru64 require you to install the OS first and mirror it later. For hardware RAID, you would typically use a stand-alone RAID configuration tool before installing the OS. I found the Solaris 10 installer looked pretty but I was presented with a set of several hundred packages with (as far as I could find) no immediate indication of dependencies. This made the installation somewhat trial and error: Pick a collection of packages that looked useful/relevant. Move forward a few steps and get told that package SUNWfoo needs package SUNWbar. Go back to package selection and fix that. Iterate multiple times. I'm also not sure that the onward march of disk-size is strictly relevant. Were I building a PC-based RAID, I'd make sure I bought an appropriately-sized spare disk at the same time as the rest of the set. Solaris requires that all disks in a RAID set have the same firmware version (though this isn't documented very well). Tru64 requires that both system disks have the same SCSI disk type. -- Peter Jeremy ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 12:27, Mike Jakubik wrote: JoaoBR wrote: The only advantage I can see is when you really want raid at install time and that definitly is not usual. What planet are you from? It's very usual. You setup RAID before you copy data to the array, not the other way around. I am from planet earth, already from the round-ball one ;) you said you waste your time installing the OS, activating raid and re-installing the Os now you talk about copying date you can mirror or stripe without loosing data and you can do it online, inserting and removing slices whenever you want João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
JoaoBR wrote: On Friday 03 March 2006 12:27, Mike Jakubik wrote: The only advantage I can see is when you really want raid at install time and that definitly is not usual. What planet are you from? It's very usual. You setup RAID before you copy data to the array, not the other way around. I am from planet earth, already from the round-ball one ;) you said you waste your time installing the OS, activating raid and re-installing the Os now you talk about copying date you can mirror or stripe without loosing data and you can do it online, inserting and removing slices whenever you want What are you talking about? I think its time to brush up on your english reading and writing skills. It takes much more work, time, and complexity to 1) boot cd and install os 2) reboot to os and follow a complex procedure to setup geom based raid than it does to 1) boot cd, make gmirror with installer, install os. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 17:36, Mike Jakubik wrote: What are you talking about? I think its time to brush up on your english reading and writing skills. It takes much more work, time, and complexity to 1) boot cd and install os 2) reboot to os and follow a complex procedure to setup geom based raid than it does to 1) boot cd, make gmirror with installer, install os. thank's for your kind advice :) so listen and learn: FreeBSD any version from CD is up in 10 minutes, reboot is 30-40 seconds that what you call complex procedure to set up a raid is done by three commands, 2 minutes for a slow typer perhaps? João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 03:36:17PM -0500, Mike Jakubik wrote: What are you talking about? I think its time to brush up on your english reading and writing skills. It takes much more work, time, and complexity to 1) boot cd and install os 2) reboot to os and follow a complex procedure to setup geom based raid than it does to 1) boot cd, make gmirror with installer, install os. Well, honestly, someone who is knowledgeable enough to set up a complex _bootable_ geom based raid on an existing install would probably find it easier to do what I usually do: 1) Boot install CD and go to fixit mode 2) Set up RAID the way I want 3) Do a manual install by extracting the packages onto the new filesystem That avoids the intermediate install and the hassle of migrating partitions around. That said, I think it might be a good idea to have a few simple RAID configurations in the installer -- say a full-disk mirror or something relatively fool-resistant. I'm sure patches would be welcome if anyone wants to step up :) Craig ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
JoaoBR wrote: On Friday 03 March 2006 17:36, Mike Jakubik wrote: What are you talking about? I think its time to brush up on your english reading and writing skills. It takes much more work, time, and complexity to 1) boot cd and install os 2) reboot to os and follow a complex procedure to setup geom based raid than it does to 1) boot cd, make gmirror with installer, install os. thank's for your kind advice :) so listen and learn: FreeBSD any version from CD is up in 10 minutes, reboot is 30-40 seconds that what you call complex procedure to set up a raid is done by three commands, 2 minutes for a slow typer perhaps? I doubt there is much i can learn from you about FreeBSD, as i've been using it since the 2.x days. I'm well aware how long it takes to setup FreeBSD. You are completely missing the point, and at this point just arguing for the sake of arguing. The point is that including geom support in the installer saves time and makes life simpler. If you are too dumb/stubborn to realize that, then thats your problem, no one is forcing you to use anything. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
craig and the rest of the gang ... On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 03:54:33PM -0600, Craig Boston wrote: On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 03:36:17PM -0500, Mike Jakubik wrote: with some chunks removed for brevity ... It takes much more work, time, and complexity to 1) boot cd and install os 2) reboot to os and follow a complex procedure to setup geom based raid than it does to 1) boot cd, make gmirror with installer, install os. Well, honestly, someone who is knowledgeable enough to set up a complex _bootable_ geom based raid on an existing install would probably find it easier to do what I usually do: 1) Boot install CD and go to fixit mode 2) Set up RAID the way I want 3) Do a manual install by extracting the packages onto the new filesystem this procedure makes sence to me .. perhaps you would be so kind as to forward it to teh doc's people to have it included in a) the relevent RAID sections and b) the places that talk about initial installation and rebuiling a system with the explicit inten of adding/converting it it a network storage facility come RAID network media/hdd procidor facility. i've never had need for RAID i prefer to rely on my QIC storage its guarenteed for 20 (twenty) years storage/shelf life thats good enough for me. i think that RAID would be a good thing to add to a -STABLE system as most beginners (sorta like me thionugh i've been in teh freebsd camp of a bit over ten years now. i have a small network here that services several remote dialups we are building a text bibliogarphy/latex based document[ation-ing] system .. back to unixen grass roots ... grin. That avoids the intermediate install and the hassle of migrating partitions around. yup that sounds really good to me and when properly documented it would be a good feature to have at least to be able to say go to page blabla of the doc's set/handbook/or probably the FAQ set. That said, I think it might be a good idea to have a few simple RAID configurations in the installer -- say a full-disk mirror or something relatively fool-resistant. I'm sure patches would be welcome if anyone wants to step up :) craig, RAID no matter how simple is a step of complexity that is not warrented for the Installer as most people new to freebsd are new to unix and these days new to computing in general or have just enough ms windows under their belts/skirts to be a bloody nuisance to themselves and to every body else untill they get to a point where they are familiar with the language, understand reasonably well how things fit together and can handle html/a browser with some degree of competance, i make this observation based upon my own experience and that of several peoples who have come to freebsd from linux a few from vaxen days and a fair contingent with a resionable gradiet from got my computer yesterday to got this miserable hard-disk replaced for teh 4th time and it still keeps on filling up over night, why do thes dhard disks keep filling up so quickly ??? with kind regards jonathan -- powered by .. QNX, OS9 and freeBSD -- http://caamora com au/operating system === appropriate solution in an inappropriate world === ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
jonathan michaels wrote: craig, RAID no matter how simple is a step of complexity that is not warrented for the Installer as most people new to freebsd are new to unix and these days new to computing in general or have just enough ms windows under their belts/skirts to be a bloody nuisance to themselves and to every body else untill they get to a point where they are familiar with the language, understand reasonably well how things fit together and can handle html/a browser with some degree of competance, How do you figure that having an installer setup a basic mirror for you is harder for novice users than making them find instructions how to use geom, and then going through the procedure... which can be complex for an existing system. There is nothing complex about mirroring in itself, and no one is forcing them to use this. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Quoting jonathan michaels [EMAIL PROTECTED]: craig and the rest of the gang ... On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 03:54:33PM -0600, Craig Boston wrote: On Fri, Mar 03, 2006 at 03:36:17PM -0500, Mike Jakubik wrote: with some chunks removed for brevity ... It takes much more work, time, and complexity to 1) boot cd and install os 2) reboot to os and follow a complex procedure to setup geom based raid than it does to 1) boot cd, make gmirror with installer, install os. Well, honestly, someone who is knowledgeable enough to set up a complex _bootable_ geom based raid on an existing install would probably find it easier to do what I usually do: 1) Boot install CD and go to fixit mode 2) Set up RAID the way I want 3) Do a manual install by extracting the packages onto the new filesystem this procedure makes sence to me .. perhaps you would be so kind as to forward it to teh doc's people to have it included in a) the relevent RAID sections and b) the places that talk about initial installation and rebuiling a system with the explicit inten of adding/converting it it a network storage facility come RAID network media/hdd procidor facility. i've never had need for RAID i prefer to rely on my QIC storage its guarenteed for 20 (twenty) years storage/shelf life thats good enough for me. i think that RAID would be a good thing to add to a -STABLE system as most beginners (sorta like me thionugh i've been in teh freebsd camp of a bit over ten years now. i have a small network here that services several remote dialups we are building a text bibliogarphy/latex based document[ation-ing] system .. back to unixen grass roots ... grin. That avoids the intermediate install and the hassle of migrating partitions around. yup that sounds really good to me and when properly documented it would be a good feature to have at least to be able to say go to page blabla of the doc's set/handbook/or probably the FAQ set. That said, I think it might be a good idea to have a few simple RAID configurations in the installer -- say a full-disk mirror or something relatively fool-resistant. I'm sure patches would be welcome if anyone wants to step up :) craig, RAID no matter how simple is a step of complexity that is not warrented for the Installer as most people new to freebsd are new to unix and these days new to computing in general or have just enough ms windows under their belts/skirts to be a bloody nuisance to themselves and to every body else untill they get to a point where they are familiar with the language, understand reasonably well how things fit together and can handle html/a browser with some degree of competance, i make this observation based upon my own experience and that of several peoples who have come to freebsd from linux a few from vaxen days and a fair contingent with a resionable gradiet from got my computer yesterday to got this miserable hard-disk replaced for teh 4th time and it still keeps on filling up over night, why do thes dhard disks keep filling up so quickly ??? This will (in more cases than not) lead to the necessary knowledge. I would have to disagree with you last section here. I've been with */BSD/i for about 10yrs. and computers even longer. My experience indicates that stupidity (ignorance) is the most loathed, best, and most effective Teacher/ Professor that Life's experience has to offer. Further; I don't think that it is a reason/ excuse to leave the option out of install. It *almost* robs an individual from the opprotunity to become more learned/ educated/ versed in the goings on and abilities of *BSD(i). It also provides a new user with the knowledge of the power that *BSD(i) has to offer. And (even) further more; it (*BSD(i)) is *really* intended for (somewhat/ seasoned) administrators and ISP(s) (synonymous?) anyway. So why deprive them for the sake of others? :) None of this was stated out of anger or malice. I just felt the need to skeak my 2¢ worth. :) Best wishes. --Chris with kind regards jonathan -- powered by .. QNX, OS9 and freeBSD -- http://caamora com au/operating system === appropriate solution in an inappropriate world === ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Microsoft: Disc space -- the final frontier! FreeBSD 5.5-PRERELEASE (SMP) MAIL04 Fri Feb 24 16:59:38 PST 2006 ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Friday 03 March 2006 20:53, Mike Jakubik wrote: I doubt there is much i can learn from you about FreeBSD, as i've been tststs pay more attention, we spoke about install time not about learning FBSD using it since the 2.x days. I'm well aware how long it takes to setup you should have changed your hardware since then to get better counters :) FreeBSD. You are completely missing the point, and at this point just arguing for the sake of arguing. The point is that including geom support in the installer saves time and makes life simpler. If you are don't know, you chose to bark and take it personal, like you others have opinions too and can tell them as well too dumb/stubborn to realize that, then thats your problem, no one is no problem, I understand you, my mother never didn't hugged me either ;) but it does not give you the right to spread your personal offenses around João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
JoaoBR wrote: thank's for your kind advice :) so listen and learn: FreeBSD any version from CD is up in 10 minutes, reboot is 30-40 seconds that what you call complex procedure to set up a raid is done by three commands, 2 minutes for a slow typer perhaps? I would certainly see the installer handling software RAID as a considerable benefit. From what I've seen on the net, to install and boot off RAIDed system disks is quite fiddly (maybe gmirror is the exception here, as I've mainly been looking at striping). Cheers Mark ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Patrick M. Hausen writes: Hello! Is it possible to boot off the install CD, setup a gmirror, and then reboot and install on the mirror (and expect things to work ok)? Anyone try this? It would be nice if the installer let you do this... AFAIK, no. Install a minimal system on the first disk, then follow these instructions: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html When the mirror is up and running, cvsup, buildworld, buildkernel, installkernel, installworld, mergemaster, reboot, enjoy ;-) I think that the instructions in the above mentioned article mildly incorrect in that they enable soft-updates when they newfs the root partition. I just asked a question about this in -stable but haven't heard any commentary. Am I misguided ,or? Thanks, g. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Mike Jakubik wrote: Andrew, have you considered adding support for creating geom based raid/lvm to the bsd installer? I have added it to my todo list. I want to get something in working with a release and any changes needed in cvs before I look at adding more features. Andrew ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Hello! Is it possible to boot off the install CD, setup a gmirror, and then reboot and install on the mirror (and expect things to work ok)? Anyone try this? It would be nice if the installer let you do this... AFAIK, no. Install a minimal system on the first disk, then follow these instructions: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html When the mirror is up and running, cvsup, buildworld, buildkernel, installkernel, installworld, mergemaster, reboot, enjoy ;-) HTH, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Internet - Dienstleistungen - Beratung Vorholzstr. 25Tel. 0721 9109 -0 Fax: -100 76137 Karlsruhe http://punkt.de ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Patrick M. Hausen wrote: Hello! Is it possible to boot off the install CD, setup a gmirror, and then reboot and install on the mirror (and expect things to work ok)? Anyone try this? It would be nice if the installer let you do this... AFAIK, no. Install a minimal system on the first disk, then follow these instructions: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html Thats what i figured. Its sad that the fbsd installer is so behind the linux ones, in terms of setting up raid and lvm during install. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Thursday 02 March 2006 22:59, Mike Jakubik wrote: Thats what i figured. Its sad that the fbsd installer is so behind the linux ones, in terms of setting up raid and lvm during install. I'm sorry that such things make you sad but do you mind to explain why this is behind ? What would be the advantage to have raid as OS install option? Certainly such option confuse average users which probably do not know what raid is. João A mensagem foi scaneada pelo sistema de e-mail e pode ser considerada segura. Service fornecido pelo Datacenter Matik https://datacenter.matik.com.br ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
JoaoBR wrote: On Thursday 02 March 2006 22:59, Mike Jakubik wrote: Thats what i figured. Its sad that the fbsd installer is so behind the linux ones, in terms of setting up raid and lvm during install. I'm sorry that such things make you sad but do you mind to explain why this is behind ? Because most Linux distributions have had this feature for a while now. It's no secret that our installer blows. It gets the job done for a basic install, provided you know its quirks, and thats it. What would be the advantage to have raid as OS install option? Certainly such option confuse average users which probably do not know what raid is. I think the advantage is clear. You don't have to waste time installing the OS, then going through a complex procedure to setup RAID, and reinstalling again, i think that would confuse average users more. Besides, FreeBSD is a server operating system, and is not intended for average users. If you don't know what RAID is, you shouldn't be in IT. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006, JoaoBR wrote: On Thursday 02 March 2006 22:59, Mike Jakubik wrote: Thats what i figured. Its sad that the fbsd installer is so behind the linux ones, in terms of setting up raid and lvm during install. I'm sorry that such things make you sad but do you mind to explain why this is behind ? What would be the advantage to have raid as OS install option? Certainly such option confuse average users which probably do not know what raid is. I can't think of ANY FreeBSD users I know that don't know what RAID is. Having this in the installer seems like a very useful addition! | Mitch Parks * mitch at kuoi.org | I bring you love and deeper understanding. - Kate Bush ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
On 3/2/06, Mitch Parks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: apropos of raid awareness: Having this in the installer seems like a very useful addition! I would favour a geom-aware installer. Maybe start migrating towards a geom default for as much as possible. Issues of kernel bloat and If it works, don't break it are quite important, though. -- -- ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Fresh install on gmirror'ed disks?
Is it possible to boot off the install CD, setup a gmirror, and then reboot and install on the mirror (and expect things to work ok)? Anyone try this? It would be nice if the installer let you do this... Since you have the luxury of doing this at install time, check out the instructions at: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2005/11/10/FreeBSD_Basics.html?page=1 It worked for me and I think it's more like what you want than the http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200502/diskmirror.html approach which is good for converting a system to gmirror. Mark ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
