Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? No, it is still illegal. That is like saying it's only stealing if I get caught or I stole a laptop from my friend but he doesn't use it so it's ok. I think it is more of a legal gray area if you are downloading a copy of something you already own, not necessarily illegal. The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off the software without paying the owners of it anything. But you are (in a sense) profiting by using software you otherwise wouldn't use. If you want a copy and you want it legal, use ebay. I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the program. ebay. At least you can feel good inside. I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code to commercial software. Source or binary doesn't really matter. I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source for other people to download it from. I allow people to download battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. it doesn't matter. I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for it only to turn around and try to sell it. It doesn't matter whether or not you are selling it. If you don't own something, it isn't legally yours. Simple. On a side note, I could care less whether or not people use illegal copies of software on FreeDOS; that's a personal choice. But don't try to force your opinion on other people. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Speaking of abandonware, all the Nintendo games for the original 8 bit system fit that description now. Should anyone distribute an emulator to run the old games on PC's? Should anyone distribute instructions on how to get a rom image of an old game so a person can play it on his/her PC? Would it be wrong for someone to set up an ftp site where you can download old 8 bit Nintendo games and play them on your PC? How about games made for the Tandy Color Computer 3 by Diecom Products? That company is now defunct and has been for a very long time. You can download disk images of Guantlet II. Is that really illegal? MS-DOS and Windows 3.x are clearly abandonware. If I want to use this abandonware, am I suddenly breaking the law? I think there is a huge difference between using abandonware verses trying to profit from it. Hopefully if you want to sell software, you are smart enough to clean room create you own code and secure your rights to it. Aitor, you think piracy is a black and white issue. It is not. Busting Grandma for downloading a commercial song she bought a CD of at the local store is a travesty. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Michael Robinson schreef: Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't I'm not even sure this is allowed. A lot of software was distributed on physical media, of which you were allowed to make a copy for personal backup in case the original media are damaged. sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. So you have explicit written comment (either on paper or on the internet) from all of the authors of each individual released software that they no longer care about it and explicitly allow usage by people who didn't pay for the program? Downloading/using software without the author's explicit permission is violating his copyright. FreeDOS and Linux etc also have copyright - you're not allowed to do anything with these programs - unless..you agree and live up to the terms of the permission statement (license/GPL). If not wanting to stick to GPL terms for these projects, you're not allowed to use/distribute it, as original copyright stays in effect then which prohibits using FreeDOS :) There have been lawsuits against manufacturers of routers. They used Linux, made adjustments, distributed the hardware with the adjusted Linux embedded (as firmware)..and violated GPL that way by not releasing sourcecode of adjustments under GPL as well. To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off the software without paying the owners of it anything. Why would a copyright holder have to take any action? The product is his, and you lack his explicit permission to use it. I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not Personal ethics are irrelevant, so far only the law counts. Hope you followed that PirateBay lawsuit. against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the program. Define when an author doesn't care please. Mail microsoft and ask them if you can use Windows95 as you can download it, and don't get a response within 2 days? is that a definition of doesn't care ? I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code to commercial software. Projects like MySQL are/were dual-licensed, 1 commercial version, 1 more opensource version. I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source for other people to download it from. I allow people to download battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. Let people find their own sites then if they want to infringe copyright. Don't list any publicly as it only gets the platform on which you list it (in this case the FreeDOS mailinglist, possibly Sourceforge.net) in trouble if some zealous copyright guardians (hi RIAA/MPAA etc) give us their attention. In short, you're promoting downloading no longer released software, might as well promote downloading older books, music and movies at the same time as they're no difference..all is copyright, all you lack permission for if you don't have bought a license of obtained explicit permission. Maybe in 75 years or so you can go download it when copyright on the product has expired :) Note that patents are a whole other matter, those have to be actively defended (at least in the USA system) I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for it only to turn around and try to sell it. Use without author's permission is not legal, selling without author's permission is not legal (unless your local law allows otherwise), and making a profit of something gets you in court quite fast indeed. Bernd -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On Sat, 2009-04-18 at 22:59 -0700, Blair Campbell wrote: Downloading commercial software that you own a copy of for personal use is not illegal. Downloading old commercial software that isn't sold anymore which the author doesn't care about is not illegal. To be illegal, the owner of the intellectual property has to raise suit and why would they over someone using the product personally? No, it is still illegal. That is like saying it's only stealing if I get caught or I stole a laptop from my friend but he doesn't use it so it's ok. No. Theft involves taking property from someone where abandoned software is NOT property. If the producers of the software or the owners of the intellectual property have no intention of prosecuting people who share it, it effectively becomes legal to share it. Who is going to prosecute you for letting your buddy download an image of an old 8 bit Nintendo game? I am not saying that it is right to download a commercial software program if you don't get caught. I have never said that. A laptop and a lamp are property, a software program is not. I can copy a software program, in most cases, without taking away the owner's copy. I may not have a right to use my copy, but I'm not stealing by copying the owner's installation media. I think it is more of a legal gray area if you are downloading a copy of something you already own, not necessarily illegal. The people breaking the law are those who try to profit off the software without paying the owners of it anything. But you are (in a sense) profiting by using software you otherwise wouldn't use. If you want a copy and you want it legal, use ebay. Using ebay involves purchasing a used copy of the software from someone who no right to sell their license to use it. This software is often over priced on ebay. Wordperfect 6.0 dos on ebay, if you can even find it, is extremely expensive. Are you going to pay a pirate $300-$500 to have a copy of WordPerfect 6.0 dos for your own personal use on 3.5 disks that are probably shot? I disagree strongly with the notion that using commercial abandonware is illegal or criminal in any way. If commercial software were never shared, it would never have the popularity that it enjoys. I'm not against paying for the use of commercial software, but if the author of the software doesn't care about it, why should I be prevented from using it? I can't pay for the use of a commercial program that isn't sold anymore and I am not interested in being fleeced by a third party seller which probably doesn't have a right to sell me the program. ebay. At least you can feel good inside. That's assuming that I am not buying from a software pirate. I have never talked about the source code of commercial software nor have I ever suggested that people go to a site that hands out source code. In fact, I don't know of any sites that hand out the source code to commercial software. Source or binary doesn't really matter. Au Contraire, it matters a lot. With the source code of a commercial program, you can adapt that program to work on systems it was never designed for even if the original authors of the program won't. With a little reworking of the source, you can claim that it's yours and try to get around the original author's copyright and/or patent. I have never suggested that anyone else nor do I myself profit from my use of software downloaded from http://vetusware.com. I don't make money off of this abandonware. I don't even provide a source for other people to download it from. I allow people to download battletech I and II from me if they want to, but those programs are so old that I seriously doubt there's an issue. it doesn't matter. Yes it does. Legally speaking, a software pirate profits off of commercial software by selling copies of it, say on ebay, to other unsuspecting victims. The way you are treating software as property no matter what is very distressing. I wonder if you have a problem with people sharing and modifying open source software? I don't appreciate this late, I have the moral high ground tone that you are taking Aitor. I am not a pirate. I do not go out and get whatever commercial software I can without paying for it only to turn around and try to sell it. It doesn't matter whether or not you are selling it. If you don't own something, it isn't legally yours. Simple. On a side note, I could care less whether or not people use illegal copies of software on FreeDOS; that's a personal choice. But don't try to force your opinion on other people. You mean the way you are trying to force your opinion on everyone? Are you suddenly a lawyer who magically understands that there's no gray area when in fact there is a lot of gray area? I think you have been listening to Microsoft. Property notions don't work well when you are talking about software, especially ancient
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Michael Robinson schreef: Speaking of abandonware, all the Nintendo games for the original 8 bit system fit that description now. Should anyone distribute what is the definition of abandonware anyway? and why would it be legal if it did fit the description? to my knowledge Nintendo is using some download system for the Wii computers to allow playing older games from all kinds of their old platforms. Also some 8bit titles have found their way to the portable systems (Gameboy) a few years ago. Think it was Zelda II and a few others. Where's Nintendo and 3rdparty author's (Konami for Metal Gear or Castlevania for example) claims that you can do with their 8bit titles whatever you want? an emulator to run the old games on PC's? Should anyone distribute instructions on how to get a rom image of an old game so a person can play it on his/her PC? Would it be wrong for someone to set This would be allowed yes, just sharing information. Emulators (ZSNES/SNES9x for 16bit SNES system for example) are also allowed..how you get the ROMs is your own problem. Getting a ROM image might be as stricts as *only you* may personally create this backup, and only if you own the cartridge with the licensed ROM on it. Dutch system allows to visit a library, hire some media, and make the backups yourself. Letting someone do it for you is illegal again however. up an ftp site where you can download old 8 bit Nintendo games and play them on your PC? And this not as you're distributing someone else's copyrighted works without their permission. How about games made for the Tandy Color Computer 3 by Diecom Products? That company is now defunct and has been for a very long time. You can download disk images of Guantlet II. Is that really illegal? Strictly, yes, until copyright has expired. MS-DOS and Windows 3.x are clearly abandonware. If I want to use this abandonware, am I suddenly breaking the law? I think there is a huge difference between using abandonware verses trying to profit from it. Microsoft and resellers are no longer selling and supporting these programs. As Blair mentioned, get an original copy from Ebay (if MS and/or the law at all allow reselling their licensed software by end-users) Hopefully if you want to sell software, you are smart enough to clean room create you own code and secure your rights to it. Aitor, you think piracy is a black and white issue. It is not. Busting Grandma for downloading a commercial song she bought a CD of at the local store is a travesty. That's still an opinion, not the current copyright law. And in court, only the judge's interpretation of the law counts, not yours or mine. I'd like to agree on this though with you..free DVD/blueray if you already own the VHS version of a movie as you got a license for the movie. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Copyright and abandon stuff are separate issues. It's certainly possible that software is abandon, and that nobody will come after you for using it. That does *not* however, mean the copyright on that software has been invalidated. If the copyright holder (whoever that may be) decided to enforce copyright, even though they aren't selling, supporting, or indeed even acknowlodging that the software exists, they would still have the legal right to do so. Is this right? Probably not, but that's the way the law is written. There was an attempt (in 2001-2002) when copyright law came up for review to get abandon software exempted from copyright restrictions, but the attempt failed. It was supposed to be revisited in 2008-2009 ( I think) but I have heard nothing about whether it actually was or not. In short, while abandon software is still under copyright, and downloading copyrighteded software is illegal, there's nothing to prevent you from doing so if you choose to do so. The only caveat is that: if (for any reason whatsoever) the copyright holder decides to enforce their right to that software, then you would be in trouble, plain and simple. Now, in reality, it's not that cut and dry, and everyone knows that. Just be careful, and try to be reasonable, and it's likely nothing will happen to you, but do be advised that just because someone doesn't prosecute for copyright infringement, doesn't mean they won't do so in the future. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
Use without author's permission is not legal, selling without author's permission is not legal (unless your local law allows otherwise), and making a profit of something gets you in court quite fast indeed. Bernd The GPL is an exception, it gives you permission to use the software it covers as long as you follow the terms without the author's permission. As far as profit, I have NEVER made a profit downloading commercial software I didn't purchase a copy of. Freedos could be proprietary. Actually, it never will be proprietary because the GPL doesn't allow that thank goodness. The software you can use with Freedos shrinks considerably if we start saying that abandonware cannot be used. Anything designed for dos these days is either abandoneware or GPL'ed as there are no commercial dos systems that are supported. If that isn't true, someone name a commercial dos program that is still sold and supported and the dos platform that it is supported on. Noone should have a right to profit from a program that is designed for a system that isn't supported anymore. The chances of making Microsoft support dos or even Windows 9x again are zero. Should the author of an Atari program who hasn't supported it since the Atari died out be allowed to demand observance of it as his/her intellectual property? How about color computer software? Should commercial software for the color computer even though it isn't produced anymore be recognized as such? Should I be allowed to sell commercial software for the original 8 bit Nintendo, assuming I could profitably do so? Is turbovision OSS software? Are all the development packages that should be used for Freedos 1.1 open source? There are practical problems with recognizing abandonware as being equal to commercial software such as Vista or Windows 7 for example. Should Novell prosecute someone if they hand their friend a copy of Netware 1 with the license code for free? How about Netware 2? Netware 3? Netware 4? There is a ton of commercial software that is either abandoned or superseded by newer releases. I own a copy of Warcraft II that I paid for and I downloaded a copy of Warcraft I from vetusware.com which I can't buy at my local store anymore. In fact, everything on Vetusware appears to be software that you can't buy from anyone, other than a pirate that is. Downloading commercial software that has been abandoned is not going to get you into trouble in court, especially if you have defective media for it sitting on the shelf. Ideally, owners of commercial software (the intellectual property) declare it to be public domain software even if they hold onto the source code when they abandon or stop supporting it. There should be laws that limit ownership when it comes to software because the current laws are creating software monopolies where Microsoft is one of the most well known. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On Apr 19, 2009, at 1:34 AM, Michael Robinson wrote: Anything from the 90's or earlier qualifies as ancient software. In the software world, anything that is 3 years old can be considered ancient. Commercial DOS software hasn't been supported since the 90's. This statement is patently false. There are several companies who still sell and support dos software from the 90's and before even. http://www.powerbasic.com for one still sells and actively supports powerbasic for dos. Checking the usnet groups that post messages about software being posted to simtelnet still (periodically) show new versions of dos software. Embeded markets especially are still using dos for a lot of uses, and there are hundreds of software companies who still sell and support dos software for such use. Just because it's old doesn't make it automatically unsupported or abandonware. This is why you can't unilaterally assume that anything that is x years old is abandoned. Some programs are truly abandon, but more than you might think are still active. Semware still supports and sells qedit, the folks who make Vedit still sell and support dos versions as well, and these are just the few I can come up with off the top of mmy head, doing a few minutes of research on google or yahoo will turn up hundreds more. I'm fairly certain rar and arj (and possibly pkzip) still accept registrations for their dos versions of their software, and other companies will as well if you ask about it. Dos is by no means dead, though there are companies out there who would have you believe otherwise. Please, don't assume that because it's dos software it's abandoned. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware...
There is a need to elect leaders who will change the law concerning abandonware. Abandonware is any software program that is proprietary where the owner of the intellectual property decides either a not to license any more copies of it or b not to support it anymore. Typically, abandonware is tied to an OS or hardware that isn't supported anymore by anyone. Anything written for MS-DOS, Win 3.x, Win 9x, Windows Millenium, Windows NT x.x, or Windows 2000 is abandonware. The stuff written for Windows 3.x and dos fits the definition most readily where one could argue that stuff for abandoned versions of NT may still be supported and sold. Sadly, most abandonware is not licensed in such a way that people can take it on separate from the original authors or share it without permission. This limits software interchange and increases the digital divide between the haves and have nots. The problem of abandonware is also creating software monopolies. The European notion of property is a problematic one in general. It is responsible for the displacement in America of native people. In this day and age being applied to software, the notion is protecting abusive software monopolies such as Microsoft and Novell. There is a need to recognize that there is the public good to protect by placing a statute of limitations on copyright and patent restrictions in regards to computer software. Software patents need to be fought and copyright needs to be brought down to a reasonable level. A program should not be protected for the lifetime of it's author or the company that produces it. I feel the same way about movies and music. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] patents - was: LFN in FreeDOS kernel? -
As an acceptable work-around, you could right-click the description file in Windows and choose Update Windows file names, or it could be just a small Windows application included in the directory. And unless it is forbidden to read VFAT LFN in DOS, any new changes could even be detected and handled. /Anders Eric, what I meant is: see how many people writes to us telling that the MS-DOS-style MENUing in CONFIG.SYS does not work in FreeDOS, so I guess we would be flooded with messages like: I wrote with LFNs to a disk, and Windows no longer recognises the filenames, and has the FILE4~1.TXT form instead. Aitor 2009/4/9 Eric Auer: I think a descript.ion file based driver to support long file names would be a fine idea indeed :-). On the down side, the driver will not read or write VFAT LFNs for you, so if you want to let Windows and DOS access the same drive, you would not share LFNs. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Windows 3.1 - Pending kernel patches
OK, sorry. I thought 2038 was the unstable branch. It is mentioned in the wiki about the unstable branch but is denoted stable. /Anders -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Windows 3.1 - Pending kernel patches
OK, sorry. I thought 2038 was the unstable branch. It is mentioned in the wiki about the unstable branch but is denoted stable. Apparently it's a bit confusing. 2036 was the original build, later renamed Stable. From this, the 37 build was created, called Unstable. Both of these were included in FreeDOS 1.0 as well. The current build is 38 Stable, which is currently based on 36 only. The final 38 release isn't done yet so you can't use this version unless you can compile it yourself or download a snapshot binary from somewhere else (like Rugxulo's pages). Regards, Christian -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site...
I'm confused. When I buy a 'software license' am I buying the software or the right to use the software? If I have a license to use specific software on a hardware platform (say a Windows OS), and my install media is damaged, do I have use of the license I've bought? Can I legally obtain new media and use my existing license key to install it? My reading of the EULA seems to say I'm buying the right to use it, and the media is provided so I can use the right I bought. Any copy of the retail OEM install disk can be used with the key asssociated with correct version license. M$ seems to be saying its not a '1st use' copyrighted work. If so, would that not mean assuming I have a legal key I could download/buy/copy install media to use it? -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site...
Fuzzy Zabriskie schreef: I'm confused. When I buy a 'software license' am I buying the software or the right to use the software? If I have a license to use specific software on a hardware platform (say a Windows OS), and my install media is damaged, do I have use of the license I've bought? Can I legally obtain new media and use my existing license key to install it? By MS's definitions you're buying the right to use the software in ways they allow, as defined in their license. If you would be able to buy their Windows product instead of just a license to use, you could do with that whatever you wanted, including mass-copying and making money of it bigtime. Something they're not happy with and thus disallow. The license to use is because it's software instead of a physical product (which you normally buy instead of just a usage license) My reading of the EULA seems to say I'm buying the right to use it, and the media is provided so I can use the right I bought. Any copy of the retail OEM install disk can be used with the key asssociated with correct version license. M$ seems to be saying its not a '1st use' copyrighted work. If so, would that not mean assuming I have a legal key I could download/buy/copy install media to use it? Yes you can use whichever installation media you want with your legally obtained/purchased valid license, no matter the source. Many computers with Vista allow downgrading to XP but don't provide the files somehow. Kinda annoying :). Would be quite nice if you could download a copy of Windows from MS's website by entering your license key..instead they just send you a snailmail cdrom in a week's time or so. Oh well. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:21:27 +0200 From: bbla...@home.nl To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site... Fuzzy Zabriskie schreef: I'm confused. When I buy a 'software license' am I buying the software or the right to use the software? If I have a license to use specific software on a hardware platform (say a Windows OS), and my install media is damaged, do I have use of the license I've bought? Can I legally obtain new media and use my existing license key to install it? By MS's definitions you're buying the right to use the software in ways they allow, as defined in their license. If you would be able to buy their Windows product instead of just a license to use, you could do with that whatever you wanted, including mass-copying and making money of it bigtime. Something they're not happy with and thus disallow. The license to use is because it's software instead of a physical product (which you normally buy instead of just a usage license) My reading of the EULA seems to say I'm buying the right to use it, and the media is provided so I can use the right I bought. Any copy of the retail OEM install disk can be used with the key asssociated with correct version license. M$ seems to be saying its not a '1st use' copyrighted work. If so, would that not mean assuming I have a legal key I could download/buy/copy install media to use it? Yes you can use whichever installation media you want with your legally obtained/purchased valid license, no matter the source. Many computers with Vista allow downgrading to XP but don't provide the files somehow. Kinda annoying :). Would be quite nice if you could download a copy of Windows from MS's website by entering your license key..instead they just send you a snailmail cdrom in a week's time or so. Oh well. Thank you... thats pretty much what I thought. personally, I think Vista is a downgrade from XP ;). I opted for XP on my laptop. My father's new laptop came with Vista :(. Boy its, annoying to have to reply 2 or 3 times to every action. I hope UAC is removed from WIN7. Dumb thing didn't even come with restore disks, never mind real install disks. I had to talk to customer support to get them to send him the restore disks. I'd rather they charged a few dollars more and included the disks. *sigh* -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site...
On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 14:52 -0400, Fuzzy Zabriskie wrote: Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:21:27 +0200 From: bbla...@home.nl To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site... Fuzzy Zabriskie schreef: I'm confused. When I buy a 'software license' am I buying the software or the right to use the software? If I have a license to use specific software on a hardware platform (say a Windows OS), and my install media is damaged, do I have use of the license I've bought? Can I legally obtain new media and use my existing license key to install it? By MS's definitions you're buying the right to use the software in ways they allow, as defined in their license. If you would be able to buy their Windows product instead of just a license to use, you could do with that whatever you wanted, including mass-copying and making money of it bigtime. Something they're not happy with and thus disallow. The license to use is because it's software instead of a physical product (which you normally buy instead of just a usage license) My reading of the EULA seems to say I'm buying the right to use it, and the media is provided so I can use the right I bought. Any copy of the retail OEM install disk can be used with the key asssociated with correct version license. M$ seems to be saying its not a '1st use' copyrighted work. If so, would that not mean assuming I have a legal key I could download/buy/copy install media to use it? Yes you can use whichever installation media you want with your legally obtained/purchased valid license, no matter the source. Many computers with Vista allow downgrading to XP but don't provide the files somehow. Kinda annoying :). Would be quite nice if you could download a copy of Windows from MS's website by entering your license key..instead they just send you a snailmail cdrom in a week's time or so. Oh well. Thank you... thats pretty much what I thought. personally, I think Vista is a downgrade from XP ;). I opted for XP on my laptop. My father's new laptop came with Vista :(. Boy its, annoying to have to reply 2 or 3 times to every action. I hope UAC is removed from WIN7. Dumb thing didn't even come with restore disks, never mind real install disks. I had to talk to customer support to get them to send him the restore disks. I'd rather they charged a few dollars more and included the disks. *sigh* I usually just linger trying to learn. A couple of things though; 1. You can easily turn off UAC if you do not like it. 2. Most new computers have a partition with the OS on it and a utility to allow you to make a set of CD's. Dan -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site...
I usually just linger trying to learn. A couple of things though; 1. You can easily turn off UAC if you do not like it. nods. Is that an option with TweakVI or a special utility? Can the constant 'its not on' messages be suppressed? 2. Most new computers have a partition with the OS on it and a utility to allow you to make a set of CD's. Dan It did but the media was bad :(. the program then refused to rerun them. I guess the powers-that-be never heard of of optical disk getting scratched or being defective, or hard drives crashing. I did explain the bad media issue, and the mfg was willing to snailmail a set so I guess if one complains one can can get them. I even asked if there was a registry tweak to tell the program to forget the set was made, (so as to recreate them). They also told me the disks they were sending could not be imaged even on a unix-like OS using dd, that didn't seem reasonable either. If the OS isn't sold but licensed, why restrict a legal reinstall due to hardware crash? Aren't they OEM versions supposed to be tied to the hardware? I can image the hard drive with Acronis True Image Home to an external hard drive and use its bootable media to restore that image. Why try to keep a user from imaging the recovery disks? They are hardware dependant anyway. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] License or Sale? WAS Abandonware site...
Go to this link, http://www.petri.co.il/disable_uac_in_windows_vista.htm here are 4 ways to turn it off. I usually use option 4. Microsoft will provide you with replacement media, I am guessing $20.00 or so. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/326246 Dan On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 17:27 -0400, Fuzzy Zabriskie wrote: I usually just linger trying to learn. A couple of things though; 1. You can easily turn off UAC if you do not like it. nods. Is that an option with TweakVI or a special utility? Can the constant 'its not on' messages be suppressed? 2. Most new computers have a partition with the OS on it and a utility to allow you to make a set of CD's. Dan It did but the media was bad :(. the program then refused to rerun them. I guess the powers-that-be never heard of of optical disk getting scratched or being defective, or hard drives crashing. I did explain the bad media issue, and the mfg was willing to snailmail a set so I guess if one complains one can can get them. I even asked if there was a registry tweak to tell the program to forget the set was made, (so as to recreate them). They also told me the disks they were sending could not be imaged even on a unix-like OS using dd, that didn't seem reasonable either. If the OS isn't sold but licensed, why restrict a legal reinstall due to hardware crash? Aren't they OEM versions supposed to be tied to the hardware? I can image the hard drive with Acronis True Image Home to an external hard drive and use its bootable media to restore that image. Why try to keep a user from imaging the recovery disks? They are hardware dependant anyway. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] FDUPDATE and the 486...
Has anyone gotten fdupdate to work with a 486? I lost the link to fdupdate v0.55 and the instructions on how to use it in fdupdate v0.54. If using a 486 is the problem because of a bug in the math coprocessor or something similar, that would be nice to know. I've noticed that I get a C prompt back after the crash if I say 387=no in autoexec.bat. I haven't confirmed this, I should test with and without it to confirm. It seems to be true though. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Vista thoughts...
I have never used Vista. I think the minimum hardware requirements are too high for me. Worse than that, I don't even like XP because it's a pain to deal with activation and an even greater pain to back it up. I've never figured out how to back up Windows XP. That said, I don't use XP very often. It's annoying when programs like TurboTax don't work, and it's annoying when sites like nbc.com don't work, but CentOS fills my needs for the most part. Freedos opens up even more software, but there's the problem that getting a hold of commercial dos software legally is difficult where I haven't seen very many OSS projects for freedos. People are saying I hope Windows 7 will be better. Have any of these people ever checked out http://badvista.fsf.org? If activation isn't annoying enough, try digital rights management that can be hacked so that you can't use your own media that you created yourself. I've heard that there are still driver issues in Vista. The word on what OEM software has become in Vista land disgusts me. You should always be allowed to back up your installation media as many times as you want in any operating environment you want to. Windows Vista raised the operating requirements for Windows, I suppose you need a dual core computer now. Am I the only one who doesn't think this is particularly appropriate? Is Windows 7 going to magically bring Vista to older computers? I doubt it. I doubt that Microsoft is going to give up on making it impossible to back up installation media and I doubt that Microsoft will give up on forcing people to activate their copy of Windows. Now is the time to send a message to Microsoft that the abuse must end and the only way to do that is to demand a refund when you get a computer with Windows Vista or Windows 7 installed. Microsoft has no business denying people the right to back up their installation media, it has no business forcing people to activate software that it will later cease to support, it has no business playing media cop severely impacting performance. Free operating systems are getting to the point where you can get along without the latest version of Windows. Thing is, people have to actively abandon Windows, a.k.a. demand a refund, before Microsoft will get the message that it's business practices are unethical and unacceptable. It is also necessary to boycott software that requires Windows because it is not written to be portable to other OS's. Microsoft Windows is a monopoly OS because people allow it to be. If the public in general would stop accepting programs that need Microsoft Windows, Microsoft could not maintain it's monopoly. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Vista thoughts...
I haven't used Windows except for rare occasions for years. I use Debian Linux, with Freedos in dosemu for occasionally messing around. --- On Sun, 4/19/09, Michael Robinson plu...@robinson-west.com wrote: From: Michael Robinson plu...@robinson-west.com Subject: [Freedos-user] Vista thoughts... To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 4:28 PM I have never used Vista. I think the minimum hardware requirements are too high for me. Worse than that, I don't even like XP because it's a pain to deal with activation and an even greater pain to back it up. I've never figured out how to back up Windows XP. That said, I don't use XP very often. It's annoying when programs like TurboTax don't work, and it's annoying when sites like nbc.com don't work, but CentOS fills my needs for the most part. Freedos opens up even more software, but there's the problem that getting a hold of commercial dos software legally is difficult where I haven't seen very many OSS projects for freedos. People are saying I hope Windows 7 will be better. Have any of these people ever checked out http://badvista.fsf.org? If activation isn't annoying enough, try digital rights management that can be hacked so that you can't use your own media that you created yourself. I've heard that there are still driver issues in Vista. The word on what OEM software has become in Vista land disgusts me. You should always be allowed to back up your installation media as many times as you want in any operating environment you want to. Windows Vista raised the operating requirements for Windows, I suppose you need a dual core computer now. Am I the only one who doesn't think this is particularly appropriate? Is Windows 7 going to magically bring Vista to older computers? I doubt it. I doubt that Microsoft is going to give up on making it impossible to back up installation media and I doubt that Microsoft will give up on forcing people to activate their copy of Windows. Now is the time to send a message to Microsoft that the abuse must end and the only way to do that is to demand a refund when you get a computer with Windows Vista or Windows 7 installed. Microsoft has no business denying people the right to back up their installation media, it has no business forcing people to activate software that it will later cease to support, it has no business playing media cop severely impacting performance. Free operating systems are getting to the point where you can get along without the latest version of Windows. Thing is, people have to actively abandon Windows, a.k.a. demand a refund, before Microsoft will get the message that it's business practices are unethical and unacceptable. It is also necessary to boycott software that requires Windows because it is not written to be portable to other OS's. Microsoft Windows is a monopoly OS because people allow it to be. If the public in general would stop accepting programs that need Microsoft Windows, Microsoft could not maintain it's monopoly. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Abandonware site...
On a side note, I could care less whether or not people use illegal copies of software on FreeDOS; that's a personal choice. But don't try to force your opinion on other people. You mean the way you are trying to force your opinion on everyone? No I am not. I am saying everyone, make up your own mind; if you want to download abandonware, go ahead, just don't tell other people that it's ok. You are 99.9% unlikely to have any legal difficulties, but that doesn't make it legal. Everyone should personally decide if it's ok for them. Are you suddenly a lawyer who magically understands that there's no gray area when in fact there is a lot of gray area? I think you have been listening to Microsoft. Property notions don't work well when you are talking about software, especially ancient software. Anything from the 90's or earlier qualifies as ancient software. In the software world, anything that is 3 years old can be considered ancient. Commercial DOS software hasn't been supported since the 90's. if someone wants to squeeze blood out of a turnip for using abandoned commercial software, good luck to them. The last word is, talking about http://vetusware.com does NOT make me a software pirate. -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS localisation project
Ok, I've seen it now, looks good! I can give you editor permissions, I think it's just enough to tell me your sourceforge username... Aitor 2009/4/16 Mateusz Viste mate...@viste-family.net: On Thursday 16 April 2009 04:58 (CEST), Aitor Santamaría wrote: Mateusz, it gives me a 404, did you manage to add it to the wiki, do you have editor permissions already? Hi! No, not yet. You indeed got a 404, as it seems I forgot to sync the fdlang directory to my new (temporary) server (the whole story is that I am moving to another house, so I am playing with my web services a lot to make them still available). I have put it back right now - check again ;-) As for the wiki, I do not have any editor's rights on it, and I wonder how could I (easily) sync it with my server... Best regards, Mateusz Viste 2009/4/4 Mateusz Viste mate...@viste-family.net: Hi all! It has been a long time that the poor translation management was bothering me. There is no easy way to know what needs to be translated, and what is already translated but not shipped with the package for whatever reason. I worked a moment today on a new project: The FreeDOS localisation project: http://www.viste-family.net/mateusz/fdlang/ I think that such centralized translation point could greatly improve FreeDOS translations, as people would know exactly what has to be translated, where to check wheter any translations for a given program has been made, and where to send any self-made translations. Don't hesitate to send me any translations you have, which aren't listed on my website! Best regards, Mateusz Viste -- You'll find my public OpenPGP key at http://www.viste-family.net/mateusz/pub_key -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user -- Stay on top of everything new and different, both inside and around Java (TM) technology - register by April 22, and save $200 on the JavaOne (SM) conference, June 2-5, 2009, San Francisco. 300 plus technical and hands-on sessions. Register today. Use priority code J9JMT32. http://p.sf.net/sfu/p ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
