Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Don Flowers]

Oops my bad! I only tested it with EDIT loaded but not with an open
document. Doesn't work.

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:35 PM, John Hupp  wrote:

> Does that work in EDIT with a document open?
>
> If so, is that on real hardware or a virtual machine?
>
> I have never had that key combo work in Edit on perhaps a dozen different
> old computers.
>
>
> On 3/5/2016 4:18 PM, Don Flowers wrote:
>
> R ALT-X works for me on a 2014 Acer Aspire E5 Laptop.
> I wonder if the root of this issue is that there no longer seems to be a
> keyboard standard (as we knew it in DOS); where TSRs were the norm.
>
> I have several TSR programs connected to either Left Shift or Left CTRL
> and my favorite TSR (PC-OUTLINE) with a  only works in DOS 3.31 or
> below. All I get now is an echo of the key combination with that one. All
> of my other TSR  programs are functional except Collins dictionary and I
> have a work-around for it with WPShell and WP60.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM, John Hupp  wrote:
>
>> Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been annoyed
>> by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)
>>
>> The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to exit.
>>
>> But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger
>> on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key
>> combinations were awkward at best.
>>
>> And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is
>> nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so
>> mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.
>>
>> But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:
>>
>> - Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
>> - In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>> - In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>> - In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>>
>> I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method
>> probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard buffer, and
>> absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is probably
>> up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.
>>
>> If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and perhaps a
>> few other programs) that will annoy me this way.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?
>>
>> [By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY
>> layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and
>> key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard
>> handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would
>> have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what
>> happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that
>> program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I
>> don't know.]
>>
>>
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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

Does that work in EDIT with a document open?

If so, is that on real hardware or a virtual machine?

I have never had that key combo work in Edit on perhaps a dozen 
different old computers.


On 3/5/2016 4:18 PM, Don Flowers wrote:

R ALT-X works for me on a 2014 Acer Aspire E5 Laptop.
I wonder if the root of this issue is that there no longer seems to be 
a keyboard standard (as we knew it in DOS); where TSRs were the norm.


I have several TSR programs connected to either Left Shift or Left 
CTRL and my favorite TSR (PC-OUTLINE) with a  only works in 
DOS 3.31 or below. All I get now is an echo of the key combination 
with that one. All of my other TSR  programs are functional except 
Collins dictionary and I have a work-around for it with WPShell and WP60.



On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM, John Hupp > wrote:


Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been
annoyed
by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)

The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to
exit.

But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger
on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key
combinations were awkward at best.

And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is
nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so
mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.

But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:

- Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
- In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.

I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method
probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard
buffer, and
absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is
probably
up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.

If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and
perhaps a
few other programs) that will annoy me this way.

Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?

[By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY
layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and
key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard
handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would
have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what
happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that
program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I
don't know.]


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Re: [Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[Don Flowers]

R ALT-X works for me on a 2014 Acer Aspire E5 Laptop.
I wonder if the root of this issue is that there no longer seems to be a
keyboard standard (as we knew it in DOS); where TSRs were the norm.

I have several TSR programs connected to either Left Shift or Left CTRL and
my favorite TSR (PC-OUTLINE) with a  only works in DOS 3.31 or
below. All I get now is an echo of the key combination with that one. All
of my other TSR  programs are functional except Collins dictionary and I
have a work-around for it with WPShell and WP60.


On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:26 PM, John Hupp  wrote:

> Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been annoyed
> by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)
>
> The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to exit.
>
> But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger
> on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key
> combinations were awkward at best.
>
> And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is
> nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so
> mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.
>
> But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:
>
> - Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
> - In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
> - In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
> - In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
>
> I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method
> probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard buffer, and
> absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is probably
> up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.
>
> If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and perhaps a
> few other programs) that will annoy me this way.
>
> Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?
>
> [By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY
> layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and
> key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard
> handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would
> have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what
> happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that
> program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I
> don't know.]
>
>
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[Freedos-user] R-Alt does not act like L-Alt

[John Hupp]

Ever since I moved from MS-DOS to FreeDOS years ago, I have been annoyed 
by some R-Alt key behavior.  (This is on a US ANSI-layout keyboard.)

The classic illustration was in Edit, where I couldn't R-Alt+X to exit.

But my touch-typing technique for a L-Alt+X would be left index finger 
on L-Alt, plus left ring finger on X.  Nearly impossible!! Other key 
combinations were awkward at best.

And as I noted in another post recently, the mouse pointer in Edit is 
nearly invisible on the machine I'm currently working with, so 
mouse-instead-of-keyboard wasn't a decent solution either.

But after another dive into this issue, I now notice this:

- Even in Edit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt with no document open.
- In SetEdit, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In FreeDOS Help, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.
- In DOOM, R-Alt acts like L-Alt.

I'm now thinking that in DOS, the kernel's keyboard input method 
probably consists of rather simply reading the BIOS keyboard buffer, and 
absent the intervention of a running DOS keyboard driver, it is probably 
up to each program to decide how to process key combinations.

If that's the case, then it's probably just FreeDOS Edit (and perhaps a 
few other programs) that will annoy me this way.

Can anyone confirm or deny this understanding?

[By the way, I also looked at running KEYB with a customized US.KEY 
layout, but it looks like US.KEY only customizes a handful of keys and 
key combinations, leaving the rest to whatever the default keyboard 
handling is.  To make R-Alt act like L-Alt across the board, I would 
have to create MANY lines in the k858 look-up table, specifying what 
happens for R-Alt+A, R-Alt+B, R-Alt+C, etc.  And it might be that 
program handling of key combinations could still override that -- I 
don't know.]

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Re: [Freedos-user] KEY language specification for custom keyboard layout [SOLVED]

[John Hupp]

OK, I found that at 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/keyb/ there 
is a critical little difference between the contents of the v2.0 and 
v2.01 directories.

2.01 does not contain the KC zip packages.

2.00 does, and the DOC directories of the KC packages contain a KEY.TXT 
file that documents the KEY language.

And in addition %FDOS%\DOC\KEY.TXT exists in a default FreeDOS 1.1 
installation.

This answers my question about the documentation I was looking for, but 
after delving into it I conclude that it wouldn't address the issue I 
was looking at.

But I'll post about that separately.

On 2/29/2016 4:31 PM, Henrique Peron wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> yes, the one and only route is to edit the US.KEY file, compile it and
> run it through KEYB. Correct.
>
> You'll have to check the documentation and look for Aitor Santamaría.
> He's the one to help you with the syntax of a KEY file.
>
> Henrique
>
>
> Em 29/02/2016 13:12, John Hupp escreveu:
>> I'm returning to my quest to customize my US keyboard.
>>
>> It looks like the best route for me will be to use the KEYB driver, and
>> edit the US.KEY file from the KC package, then compile that into a .KL
>> file to be used by KEYB.
>>
>> I understand that the .KEY files conform to the KEY language
>> specification, but despite some scouring, I have found no documentation
>> for the format of the .KEY files or the syntax of the KEY language.
>>
>> Does anyone have more information?
>>
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