Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

Dennis, I wish we wouldn't have to constantly state how obsolete DOS
is and how it's horribly dead and useless. I doubt Jasenna is directly
profiting from your "obvious" advice to upgrade. (Sigh.)

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 10:11 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:
>
> I browsed www.rahul.net/dkaufman/  just for curiosity.  Last released version 
> of DOS
> port of lynx was 2.8.5rel.1, date 18 April 2004.

There's a newer DJGPP "port" 2.8.9 since two weeks ago. Not from Doug,
though, and I'd hardly call it well-supported. Heck, I haven't even
tried it. I don't know what it supports or how well it works:

http://na.mirror.garr.it/mirrors/djgpp/current/v2tk/lynx289b.zip
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.msdos.djgpp/5HbYKiotvcA

(irony: you probably can't see that announcement without Javascript)

(For my DOS uses, Links2 is plenty good enough.)

> Last line of this web page read:
> This page last updated 2 November 2006.

Links 2.13 (DJGPP build, mirrored to iBiblio for us) was just released
two weeks ago as well.

> I also tried www.nettamer.net/tamer.html : looked like the same old stuff 
> from 1999.
>
> I checked www.glennmcc.org : latest Arachne is v1.97, dating to Mar 04, 2013.
>
> I think it might be possible to produce a DOS web browser with support for 
> current web standards,

It's possible (in theory) to support some Javascript, but adding
things like HTML5 are probably out of the question.

> but would not be worthwhile on an OS that distinguishes between conventional, 
> extended and
> expanded memory.

DJGPP v2 built stuff usually only sees DPMI, which behind the scenes
is based upon whatever other kind is available (EMS/VCPI, XMS, raw).
You don't have to do anything special to access it, so that is a red
herring.

> Writing a web browser is more efficient in Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD and Haiku

FreeBSD isn't a supported target for Opera anymore (last I checked).
So how "easy" can it be if even they aren't supported? Does any
"major" web browser support Haiku? Or even eCS (OS/2)? AFAIK, no.

Face it, only the big three (billion-dollar) OSes are worth anybody's
effort anymore. Which is horribly lazy and inept, but that's the way
it is. Honestly, a web browser shouldn't be almost bigger than the OS
itself! It's a mess, but there's not much normal people can do about
it.

But it's also not fair to pretend that development just magically
happens (while whining about money, as if that solves everything).
First of all, money and developers don't grow on trees. We're lucky
when anything is supported, and it's not always guaranteed that even
Windows, Linux, and Mac are all equal in features.

> not to mention Windows and Mac, and not many people would be interested
> in web-browsing from DOS.

IE is practically dead (or so I thought) in lieu of Edge. And legacy
things (like "old" Win7) are going away. Let's not pretend that it's
really about DOS. It's more about ultra-modern advancements (which
personally I think we can live without, but nobody agrees with me).

Probably cost-efficient Android tablets or Chromebooks are the future
(though iOS is still extremely popular).

> At this stage, my interest in browsing from DOS would be mainly to see if it 
> works on simpler sites,
> naturally not including any kind of online commerce.

Considering that most companies (and even individuals) are not immune
to hacks, and that this problem seems to be increasing, I think any
overzealous claims of security (on any OS) would be somewhat naive.
Not to be a pessimist, but the Internet itself may not survive if
certain groups can't keep their hands off of other peoples' goods.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website

[Thomas Mueller]

from dmccunney:

> And sometimes it's correct advice.  The computer world changes with
> enormous rapidity, and one area where change is fastest is web
> browsing.  These days, the push is to support HTML5, and CSS3, with
> current JavaScript.  HTML5 is a big push because the  keyword
> makes it possible to embed video without using Flash.  You still need
> a codec to decode and display the video, but the codec is part of the
> browser, and not a third party plugin.  CSS3 offers major additional
> capabilities in determining how sites look in a manner separated from
> their content.  And *everybody* uses JavaScript now.
 
> It's why I don't even try to browse from DOS.  No current DOS browser
> comes anywhere close to the support for current web standards that is
> really needed, and none *will*.  It's likely not possible under DOS,
> and  no one will expend the considerable effort to implement what can
> be done under DOS because there's no money in it.  People who can do
> that sort of thing expect to be paid for it, and who will do so?

I browsed www.rahul.net/dkaufman/  just for curiosity.  Last released version 
of DOS port of lynx was 2.8.5rel.1, date 18 April 2004.

Last line of this web page read:
This page last updated 2 November 2006. 

I also tried www.nettamer.net/tamer.html : looked like the same old stuff from 
1999.

I checked www.glennmcc.org : latest Arachne is v1.97, dating to Mar 04, 2013.

I think it might be possible to produce a DOS web browser with support for 
current web standards, but would not be worthwhile on an OS that distinguishes 
between conventional, extended and expanded memory.

Writing a web browser is more efficient in Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD and Haiku not 
to mention Windows and Mac, and not many people would be interested in 
web-browsing from DOS.

At this stage, my interest in browsing from DOS would be mainly to see if it 
works on simpler sites, naturally not including any kind of online commerce.

Tom


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consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website

[dmccunney]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Jose Antonio Senna
 wrote:
>  On July 13 dmccunney said:

>   > One alternative is to install a new browser.
>
>Seems the knee-jerk reaction from support people.
>And a new OS, and a new computer...

And sometimes it's correct advice.  The computer world changes with
enormous rapidity, and one area where change is fastest is web
browsing.  These days, the push is to support HTML5, and CSS3, with
current JavaScript.  HTML5 is a big push because the  keyword
makes it possible to embed video without using Flash.  You still need
a codec to decode and display the video, but the codec is part of the
browser, and not a third party plugin.  CSS3 offers major additional
capabilities in determining how sites look in a manner separated from
their content.  And *everybody* uses JavaScript now.

It's why I don't even try to browse from DOS.  No current DOS browser
comes anywhere close to the support for current web standards that is
really needed, and none *will*.  It's likely not possible under DOS,
and  no one will expend the considerable effort to implement what can
be done under DOS because there's no money in it.  People who can do
that sort of thing expect to be paid for it, and who will do so?

>   >  Another is code that diddles the User Agent string the
>   > browser sends in response to a "What browser are you?"
>   > query...
>
>   In FF this can be done in the about:config page, without
>  extra code, but I doubt they use this method to identify
>  the browser.

What *do* you think they use?  Most sites I encounter use precisely
the User Agent string, because it's what the browser sends when it's
asked to identify itself.

I've diddled that configuration on the past to lie about what I was
using, to cope with brain dead sites designed to work with IE, or with
sites that didn't recognize the browser I was using (not FF) as one
that supported the standards they required...No problem.  Lie and
claim it's Chrome...

>   I think it is more likely they use jquery to make the
>  client return a response dependent on the javascript
>  version it supports.

Possible, but that's another reason for running a relatively current browser.

>   JAS
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Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website

[Jim Hall]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Jose Antonio Senna
 wrote:
>  On July 13 dmccunney said:
>
>  > The issue here may be the ancient FF version.
>  > Sites tend to use browser identification code
>  > that will complain if it thinks you
>  > are running an unsupported browser that can't
>  > render the site.
>  > FF 2.X has been unsupported for years.
>
>This may explain why the Sourceforge server failed to
>   detect javascript capability in my browser, but it is no
>   reason for the "disaster recovery mode" message.
> Anyway, Sourceforge is now working again, and their
>   "Site Status" page acknowledges they had a problem.
>
[...]
>   I think it is more likely they use jquery to make the
>  client return a response dependent on the javascript
>  version it supports.


Yes, I think you are correct that they probably use js in their error
page, and they are detecting the version of js supported.

But as you say, SourceForge has fixed their server problem, so I think
this issue is moot.


Jim

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consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
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