Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
I normally don't use FDAPM or POWER, but did a little bit of testing after reading this. If you load FDAPM first and then load my USB drivers, there is indeed a problem and the keyboard doesn't work properly. If you load the USB drivers first and then load FDAPM afterwards, everything seems to work just fine. I also tried using MS POWER (installed in CONFIG.SYS), and everything works fine with my USB drivers installed afterwards. So, as an alternative to what you're doing now, either use POWER instead of FDAPM, or install FDAPM after installing the USB drivers instead of before. In either case, though, you still seem to have a hardware problem -- there's no legitimate reason the CPU should get hot enough to start causing data corruption. The purpose of programs like FDAPM POWER is to extend battery life, component life, and reduce overall power consumption, not to keep the computer from overheating and destroying data. I'll try to investigate this before the next release of the USB drivers and see if I can figure out exactly what the problem is. -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
Hi! On Saturday 11 September 2010 09:45 (CEST), Marcos Favero Florence de Barros wrote: I'm now experimenting with FDAPM and THROTTLE to reduce processor speed, with partial success. Corrupted files still appear, only in smaller quantities. No, CPU speed reduction is not the way to go. You need to use FDAPM to feed the CPU with HLT instructions whenever the system is idle. This sounds like bad news for me. I would like to know whether all portables are like that (the one I'm currently working on is a Compaq Armada E500), and whether anything can be done about it in order to work in FreeDOS without endangering the processor. Yes - I already said it: use FDAPM, luke ;) Just execute FDAPM this way: FDAPM APMDOS Few years ago, I did some tests, to see if FDAPM can help me to save a bit on my electricity bill. Wait a sec... (looking in my archives for old emails with results) Okay, found it: This is the power consumption (at idle state) of my DOS Machine (C3 933MHz 128 MB RAM with FreeDOS): OFF: 13,8 W Running with FDAPM: 59,8 W Without FDAPM: 71,3 W FDAPM SUSPEND: 52,9 W FDAPM STANDBY: 62,1 W As you see, using FDAPM made my PC burning less power in idle state (waiting for user action) than it would in STANDBY mode :-) Best regards, Mateusz Viste -- You'll find my public OpenPGP key at http://www.viste-family.net/mateusz/pub_key signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
This is just the opposite of what I expected. I always thought that it is easier for a processor to run DOS than Windows. In case you care about the technical background: DOS is dumb. When waiting for user input, it (all DOS versions I know) by default just loops forever until a key was pressed. This apparently was no problem at some time but now makes your CPU eat a lot more power and produce a lot more heat than is necessary. This design fault was and is inherent even in the BIOS servicing code for user input. As Mateusz said, using FDAPM APMDOS or a similar setting should cure the primary reason this happens. It does so by hooking the DOS and BIOS functions which are called by idle-unaware programs (90% of DOS software), and replacing the DOS/BIOS code with a loop that (a) calls a different DOS/BIOS function to check whether a key is currently available, (b) if no key is available, halts the CPU til the next hardware interrupt (usually timer or keyboard), and (c) otherwise gets the key from the flawed DOS/BIOS code. These won't unnecessarily stress the CPU if the key is already in the BIOS's buffer so it's okay to call them if you know that there is. Regards, Christian -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
Marcos Favero Florence de Barros wrote: Thanks a lot for a *very* useful hint. But you already knew this. ;-) Just remember your messages from December 2009 to this list. And of course thanks to Eric too for having written FDAPM in the first place :-) He also added IDLEHALT to FDCONFIG.SYS. Robert Riebisch -- BTTR Software http://www.bttr-software.de/ -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
What happened was, I had stopped using FDAPM with the portables after finding that it was interfering with Bret Johnson's USB keyboard driver. Hence the overheating. Did you report that to Bret already? Regards, Christian -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
All versions of DOS I know require the use of a TSR (like FDAPM, or MS-DOS's POWER) to idle correctly, or of a program that does the idling itself (I don't know any COMMAND.COM version that does so). However, as the flawed call usually will simply be called by idle-unaware software, an idle-aware handler of the call could provide correct idling. This particularly means that DOS can fix incorrect applications, if they call DOS, and that the BIOS can fix DOS (because DOS always calls the BIOS) and all applications that call the BIOS. Though I have not yet seen a BIOS that idles correctly (even on recent boards!), there might be some that do. Regards, Christian -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
At 02:53 PM 9/11/2010, john s wolter wrote: Christian, I must be ignorant of this need to idle a program to prevent overheating. First thinking of the 8088/86, 80286, 80386, 80486 system boards of the 1980's and early 1990's. I can't remember overheating caused by looping programs. I wrote BIOS calling assembly language routines that would poll the keyboard awaiting input. I did not observe such overheating. My work after that time frame depended on the use of large shared libraries that may have masked such issues. I've not worked at the hardware level in the Pentium series CPU. What if anything has changed since that time? What mechanism of system board design would cause such behavior? I want to know the how of how can a system board overheat and need a software intervention. Can you offer any online links that discuss design issues related to this overheating. It's more of a reversed logic thing... In DOS (and some other OS), looping/waiting for a keystroke will just keep the CPU running as usual, so dissipating the same amount of heat as if it would be really busy. Putting a HLT instruction at the right place will cause the x86 CPU to stop executing instructions until the next hardware interrupt (like from the keyboard), which has the side effect of a drop of power consumption and hence a (temporary) reduction in heat dissipation... If the CPU is overheating, reaching a temperature outside of its designed range, than this is a totally different issue and most likely due to some hardware issues (including dusty/clogged fans/airways) and the use of the HLT instructions rather covers up this issue than being a solution. The only possibly benefit would be in battery operation, where a lot prolonged periods in HLT mode could save some battery power, but even that might be fairly relative... Ralf -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
I'd suggest to reduce CPU frequency if possible or to improve the cooling / ventilation. Among other flaws mentioned above this definitely is a mechanical / thermal flaw because the CPU should NOT be able to overheat even if it is very busy or executes flawed code. Imagine compressing a large file (7-ZIP / audio / video) and getting corrupt result, and the FDAPM trick won't work here anymore :-( -- ~~~ wow ~~~ -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
Are there Dust-Bunnies inside the power-supply? Is the p-s fan working? Is there a CPU fan and is it working? FYI, I indeed did have a PC (not laptop) with this problem. Removing all the dust mess not only removed all mysterious crashes but also the CPU fan noise went massively down :-) -- ~~~ wow ~~~ -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
Seems you're not old enough to ever have worked with one of the 5V Pentium CPUs (60/66MHz) for example... LOL I didn't really care at the time. I can assure you the AMD K-4 (~ 300 MHz) and Pentium II (~ 250 MHz) boards that I still regularly use do profit from idling too. But really, though I wouldn't recommend it, I don't care whether you let your CPU run at full workload either. Regards, Christian -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Processor overheating under DOS
Christian, It basically is related to current system board design and therefore the dangling question is what aspect of design. What if anything has changed since that time? Are you referring to libraries, the CPU or something entirely else with this question? I'm referring to the CPU and I should include the the bridges. Does anyone among those on this form know something about or can offer links to an introductory discussion of current system board design? It is clear that thermal design is part of board design. I recommend not to run any modern system without FDAPM or idling applications. Thank you for the extended discussion of keyboard input. I can see the CPU is looping intensely. The roll of FDAPM based on your description needs some examination. The source code for it is the place to start. It may be productive to communicate with the maintainer of its code. John S. Wolter -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
