Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Michał Dec]

Hi Eric,

I have accidentally responded only to Jerome before, saying that I've 
found the cause. Let's take care of your message first.


>Do things work better with no JEMM... loaded?

Yes! Much better! I would have to record those tests, but I can tell you 
that:


Redneck Rampage will glitch out, make my ears bleed and return to DOS, 
and while it's still in DOS, the sound card will continue to play a 
half-buffered sample and continue to destroy my ears


GTA1 will refuse to run in every graphic mode. 8bit palette mode and 
24bit palette mode will just print a stack and some kind of exception. 
3dfx mode will complain it can't allocate 215KB of memory, despite at 
least 500KB being free


This is the state of affair with JEMM386 loaded, so when I run my system 
with Yamaha or AWE, it's with HIMEMX and nothing more on top of that. 
The only game so far that actually prefers there be JEMM386 running is 
"The Lost Vikings" which is unable to count the free memory correctly. 
Probably because my FreeDOS machine has 2GB RAM.


I have figured out that the games are okay. I used Metasoma's "Mirror of 
life" album in Quake 1 which is a pressed CD and it worked wonders. So 
the problem is the CD copies I made for GTA1 and Redneck Rampage. I have 
analyzed my images and software stack and I have a little clue. It seems 
the culprit is CDRDAO, and this is what I found when successfully 
running toc2cue:


toc2cue version 1.2.4 - (C) Andreas Mueller 

Converted toc-file 'Quake2.toc' to cue file 'Quake2.cue'.

Please note that the resulting cue file is only valid if the
toc-file was created with cdrdao using the commands 'read-toc'
or 'read-cd'. For manually created or edited toc-files the
cue file may not be correct. This program just checks for
the most obvious toc-file features that cannot be converted to
a cue file.
*Furthermore, if the toc-file contains audio tracks the byte**
**order of the image file will be wrong which results in static**
**noise when the resulting cue file is used for recording**
**(even with cdrdao itself).*

So, the images I make with CDRDAO might be all wrong.

So, FreeDOS is fine. Sorry for alarming anyone.

Best regards,

Michał

W dniu 22.01.2022 o 23:45, Eric Auer pisze:


Hi!

I used this version of OAK 
https://www.hiren.info/download/dos-files/oakcdrom.sys


and the problem persists. I even tried 3 different sound cards with 
the CDROM in UDMA and PIO modes:

- SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

- SoundBlaster Vibra 128

- Yamaha YMF724


...

In all 6 tests, the CD input would produce static noise, except with 
Vibra 128. Don't even get me started on this card, it's always been 
an unstable mess in DOS, courtesy of JEMM386.


Do things work better with no JEMM... loaded?
Have you tried using XMGR instead of HIMEM?

Regarding the sound question in general, do
the games use the audio PLAY function of the
drive? If yes, is the wiring okay and are the
games able to properly configure the soundcard
volumen control and mixer to the correct input?

If the games use the function to read the raw
audio sectors instead and then play them as a
part of the game sound itself, the whole flow
of data and sound would be different and the
question would change into whether the games
can properly READ the sound data, while using
the normal game sound driver to then play it.

Any more ideas? It used to work flawlessly in FreeDOS 1.2 with 
SHSUCDX backported from 1.3 RC that was newest like, at least a year 
ago. It turned out back then that SHSUCDX from FD 1.2 does not 
support CD playback at all.


I suggest that you compare the UDVD2 versions
and SHSUCDX versions of FreeDOS 1.2 and 1.3 to
find out whether you need the FD1.2 version of
one (which?) or both drivers for your games.

If you were using a different driver, such as
ATAPICDD or OAKCDROM or AHCICD instead of UDVD2,
or MSCDEX instead of SHSUCDX, you can of course
also compare the effects of those differences.

However, as far as I understand, 1.2 worked
out of the box with old SHSUCDX and old UDVD2
and your OAKCDROM experiment is just to check
whether that works better with new SHSUCDX
than new UDVD2 does, also possibly related
to changed command line options in the new
FreeDOS 1.3 style default boot config files?

Thanks for testing!

Regards, Eric

PS: As usual, the memory drivers can also be
part of the problem. HIMEM (try XMGR), JEMMEX
(try JEMM386 or no JEMM... at all) etc.



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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

I used this version of OAK 
https://www.hiren.info/download/dos-files/oakcdrom.sys


and the problem persists. I even tried 3 different sound cards with the 
CDROM in UDMA and PIO modes:

- SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

- SoundBlaster Vibra 128

- Yamaha YMF724


...

In all 6 tests, the CD input would produce static noise, except with 
Vibra 128. Don't even get me started on this card, it's always been an 
unstable mess in DOS, courtesy of JEMM386.


Do things work better with no JEMM... loaded?
Have you tried using XMGR instead of HIMEM?

Regarding the sound question in general, do
the games use the audio PLAY function of the
drive? If yes, is the wiring okay and are the
games able to properly configure the soundcard
volumen control and mixer to the correct input?

If the games use the function to read the raw
audio sectors instead and then play them as a
part of the game sound itself, the whole flow
of data and sound would be different and the
question would change into whether the games
can properly READ the sound data, while using
the normal game sound driver to then play it.

Any more ideas? It used to work flawlessly in FreeDOS 1.2 with SHSUCDX 
backported from 1.3 RC that was newest like, at least a year ago. It 
turned out back then that SHSUCDX from FD 1.2 does not support CD 
playback at all.


I suggest that you compare the UDVD2 versions
and SHSUCDX versions of FreeDOS 1.2 and 1.3 to
find out whether you need the FD1.2 version of
one (which?) or both drivers for your games.

If you were using a different driver, such as
ATAPICDD or OAKCDROM or AHCICD instead of UDVD2,
or MSCDEX instead of SHSUCDX, you can of course
also compare the effects of those differences.

However, as far as I understand, 1.2 worked
out of the box with old SHSUCDX and old UDVD2
and your OAKCDROM experiment is just to check
whether that works better with new SHSUCDX
than new UDVD2 does, also possibly related
to changed command line options in the new
FreeDOS 1.3 style default boot config files?

Thanks for testing!

Regards, Eric

PS: As usual, the memory drivers can also be
part of the problem. HIMEM (try XMGR), JEMMEX
(try JEMM386 or no JEMM... at all) etc.



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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Michał Dec]

I've tried to dissect my previous FreeDOS instance where it worked. 
Turns out, it used SHSUCDX 3.07 and UDVD2 4-30-2013, so these are the 
package versions I installed. Unfortunately, it didn't work. It's still 
playing static. I have also disabled the second CDROM sitting on the 
same IDE channel, just for extra safety. Still nothing. I don't know 
what to do anymore. The only option I see is reverting to FreeDOS 1.2 
and importing the relevant sound card drivers there.


However, this setup works flawless in Windows 98. Tried it with "The 
Sting!" which relies on a CD soundtrack. Maybe the options with which 
the drivers are loaded are different?


BR,

Michał

W dniu 18.01.2022 o 17:00, Jerome Shidel pisze:




On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:47 AM, Michał Dec  wrote:

I used this version of OAK 
https://www.hiren.info/download/dos-files/oakcdrom.sys


and the problem persists. I even tried 3 different sound cards with 
the CDROM in UDMA and PIO modes:

- SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

- SoundBlaster Vibra 128

- Yamaha YMF724

It took me this long, because to avoid messing up my system, I have 
added additional modes the system can start with, besides the basic 5 
present in FreeDOS 1.3 RC5. My extra modes are specific for each 
sound card with extra /K parameter for COMMAND.COM 
 so that the drivers are up and ready as soon as 
I receive an interactable console. I also needed to edit the Yamaha 
driver to add support for the southbridge.


In all 6 tests, the CD input would produce static noise, except with 
Vibra 128. Don't even get me started on this card, it's always been 
an unstable mess in DOS, courtesy of JEMM386.


Any more ideas? It used to work flawlessly in FreeDOS 1.2 with 
SHSUCDX backported from 1.3 RC that was newest like, at least a year 
ago. It turned out back then that SHSUCDX from FD 1.2 does not 
support CD playback at all.


There are 3 versions at 
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/shsucdx.html


Version 3.08 & 3.08a are the same, with just NLS updated. However, 
there is also 3.07 and 3.05.


You could try the middle one.

So, where did things go wrong? Could it be possible that between 
FreeDOS release candidates, SHSUCDX changed to fix the issue and then 
break it in a new way?


Best regards,

Michał

W dniu 16.01.2022 o 19:39, Louis Santillan pisze:
Not sure about the circumstances of your Rayman crash but I’ve read 
many posts about issues with that game on DOS. Apps that access the 
file system or hardware directly, disk caches can cause certain 
types of file corruption. Whole file system corruption is odd and 
might indicate other issues (CPU, RAM, IDE controller, BIOS, drive).


You haven’t provided any details about your hardware.  That said, 
most drivers had compatibility with multiple drive makers.  And 
usually, you only had to specify the device “/d:xxyyzz”.


There’s a list of popular device drivers here.

https://www.hiren.info/downloads/dos-files

MS used to license OAKCDROM.SYS and CD1.SYS for IDE drives.  You can 
find other cd rom drivers at


https://www.allbootdisks.com/disk_contents/98.html


I’d try to find your vendor’s driver disk in archive.org 
 or other vintage computing sites.




On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 5:09 AM Michał Dec  wrote:

W dniu 16.01.2022 o 13:58, Eric Auer pisze:
> nothing worse than crashing should happen
> if you give the wrong answers.

After working with Rayman I am simply traumatized by crashing
anything
under DOS, because any and every crash can mean the destruction
of the
filesystem's integrity.

I'll try and get the OAK driver and let you know what happens next.

Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Jan 18, 2022, at 10:47 AM, Michał Dec  wrote:
> 
> I used this version of OAK 
> https://www.hiren.info/download/dos-files/oakcdrom.sys 
> 
> and the problem persists. I even tried 3 different sound cards with the CDROM 
> in UDMA and PIO modes:
> - SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold
> 
> - SoundBlaster Vibra 128
> 
> - Yamaha YMF724
> 
> It took me this long, because to avoid messing up my system, I have added 
> additional modes the system can start with, besides the basic 5 present in 
> FreeDOS 1.3 RC5. My extra modes are specific for each sound card with extra 
> /K parameter for COMMAND.COM so that the drivers are up and ready as soon as 
> I receive an interactable console. I also needed to edit the Yamaha driver to 
> add support for the southbridge.
> In all 6 tests, the CD input would produce static noise, except with Vibra 
> 128. Don't even get me started on this card, it's always been an unstable 
> mess in DOS, courtesy of JEMM386.
> Any more ideas? It used to work flawlessly in FreeDOS 1.2 with SHSUCDX 
> backported from 1.3 RC that was newest like, at least a year ago. It turned 
> out back then that SHSUCDX from FD 1.2 does not support CD playback at all.
> 
There are 3 versions at 
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/shsucdx.html
 


Version 3.08 & 3.08a are the same, with just NLS updated. However, there is 
also 3.07 and 3.05.

You could try the middle one. 

> So, where did things go wrong? Could it be possible that between FreeDOS 
> release candidates, SHSUCDX changed to fix the issue and then break it in a 
> new way?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Michał
> W dniu 16.01.2022 o 19:39, Louis Santillan pisze:
>> Not sure about the circumstances of your Rayman crash but I’ve read many 
>> posts about issues with that game on DOS. Apps that access the file system 
>> or hardware directly, disk caches can cause certain types of file 
>> corruption.  Whole file system corruption is odd and might indicate other 
>> issues (CPU, RAM, IDE controller, BIOS, drive).
>> 
>> You haven’t provided any details about your hardware.  That said, most 
>> drivers had compatibility with multiple drive makers.  And usually, you only 
>> had to specify the device “/d:xxyyzz”.
>> 
>> There’s a list of popular device drivers here.
>> 
>> https://www.hiren.info/downloads/dos-files 
>> 
>> 
>> MS used to license OAKCDROM.SYS and CD1.SYS for IDE drives.  You can find 
>> other cd rom drivers at 
>> 
>> https://www.allbootdisks.com/disk_contents/98.html 
>> 
>> 
>> I’d try to find your vendor’s driver disk in archive.org 
>>  or other vintage computing sites.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 5:09 AM Michał Dec > > wrote:
>> W dniu 16.01.2022 o 13:58, Eric Auer pisze:
>> > nothing worse than crashing should happen
>> > if you give the wrong answers.
>> 
>> After working with Rayman I am simply traumatized by crashing anything 
>> under DOS, because any and every crash can mean the destruction of the 
>> filesystem's integrity.
>> 
>> I'll try and get the OAK driver and let you know what happens next.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Michał
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Michał Dec]

I used this version of OAK 
https://www.hiren.info/download/dos-files/oakcdrom.sys


and the problem persists. I even tried 3 different sound cards with the 
CDROM in UDMA and PIO modes:

- SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold

- SoundBlaster Vibra 128

- Yamaha YMF724

It took me this long, because to avoid messing up my system, I have 
added additional modes the system can start with, besides the basic 5 
present in FreeDOS 1.3 RC5. My extra modes are specific for each sound 
card with extra /K parameter for COMMAND.COM so that the drivers are up 
and ready as soon as I receive an interactable console. I also needed to 
edit the Yamaha driver to add support for the southbridge.


In all 6 tests, the CD input would produce static noise, except with 
Vibra 128. Don't even get me started on this card, it's always been an 
unstable mess in DOS, courtesy of JEMM386.


Any more ideas? It used to work flawlessly in FreeDOS 1.2 with SHSUCDX 
backported from 1.3 RC that was newest like, at least a year ago. It 
turned out back then that SHSUCDX from FD 1.2 does not support CD 
playback at all.


So, where did things go wrong? Could it be possible that between FreeDOS 
release candidates, SHSUCDX changed to fix the issue and then break it 
in a new way?


Best regards,

Michał

W dniu 16.01.2022 o 19:39, Louis Santillan pisze:
Not sure about the circumstances of your Rayman crash but I’ve read 
many posts about issues with that game on DOS. Apps that access the 
file system or hardware directly, disk caches can cause certain types 
of file corruption.  Whole file system corruption is odd and might 
indicate other issues (CPU, RAM, IDE controller, BIOS, drive).


You haven’t provided any details about your hardware.  That said, most 
drivers had compatibility with multiple drive makers.  And usually, 
you only had to specify the device “/d:xxyyzz”.


There’s a list of popular device drivers here.

https://www.hiren.info/downloads/dos-files

MS used to license OAKCDROM.SYS and CD1.SYS for IDE drives.  You can 
find other cd rom drivers at


https://www.allbootdisks.com/disk_contents/98.html


I’d try to find your vendor’s driver disk in archive.org 
 or other vintage computing sites.




On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 5:09 AM Michał Dec  wrote:

W dniu 16.01.2022 o 13:58, Eric Auer pisze:
> nothing worse than crashing should happen
> if you give the wrong answers.

After working with Rayman I am simply traumatized by crashing
anything
under DOS, because any and every crash can mean the destruction of
the
filesystem's integrity.

I'll try and get the OAK driver and let you know what happens next.

Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Louis Santillan]

Not sure about the circumstances of your Rayman crash but I’ve read many
posts about issues with that game on DOS. Apps that access the file system
or hardware directly, disk caches can cause certain types of file
corruption.  Whole file system corruption is odd and might indicate other
issues (CPU, RAM, IDE controller, BIOS, drive).

You haven’t provided any details about your hardware.  That said, most
drivers had compatibility with multiple drive makers.  And usually, you
only had to specify the device “/d:xxyyzz”.

There’s a list of popular device drivers here.

https://www.hiren.info/downloads/dos-files

MS used to license OAKCDROM.SYS and CD1.SYS for IDE drives.  You can find
other cd rom drivers at

https://www.allbootdisks.com/disk_contents/98.html


I’d try to find your vendor’s driver disk in archive.org or other vintage
computing sites.



On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 5:09 AM Michał Dec  wrote:

> W dniu 16.01.2022 o 13:58, Eric Auer pisze:
> > nothing worse than crashing should happen
> > if you give the wrong answers.
>
> After working with Rayman I am simply traumatized by crashing anything
> under DOS, because any and every crash can mean the destruction of the
> filesystem's integrity.
>
> I'll try and get the OAK driver and let you know what happens next.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michał
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Michał Dec]

W dniu 16.01.2022 o 13:58, Eric Auer pisze:

nothing worse than crashing should happen
if you give the wrong answers.


After working with Rayman I am simply traumatized by crashing anything 
under DOS, because any and every crash can mean the destruction of the 
filesystem's integrity.


I'll try and get the OAK driver and let you know what happens next.

Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] UDVD2 vs SHSUCDX

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

> I think it was a little controversial to load both of those drivers at
> the same time. Maybe this is causing my problems?

Not really. You need one driver to access the CD, for example
UDVD2, and one driver to access the files on it, for example
SHSUCDX, so you always need two drivers for your game.

> I'm playing GTA1 and Redneck Rampage. These games have CD audio tracks.
> GTA1 plays a static noise and RR detects the CD, but refuses to play
> anything.

Your problem seems to be related to copy protection. There was
a discussion about this in 2021 where I wonder whether and which
features available only in commercial drivers are required to
make copy protection work. In other words, the suggestion was
to use e.g. a driver from a Windows 9x boot disk instead of UDVD2
and see what happens. Back then, I was looking for people to help
me by testing whether patching e.g. your OAKCDROM driver to remove
one of the features: If that makes OAKCDROM behave like UDVD2 and
your game refuses to play, then we know which feature would have to
be added to UDVD2 to support copy protections :-)

It surprises me that your OAK driver asks so many questions about
the drive controller, but nothing worse than crashing should happen
if you give the wrong answers.

If you can confirm that your game works with another driver, then
I would be happy to help you to selectively break that driver, as
described above, to learn how to improve UDVD2 :-)

Regards, Eric

PS: The thread probably was around the beginning of June 2021.
I have a copy of the 41302 byte 1998 OAKCDROM as reference.



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