Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution
Phil Henshaw wrote: >That could cause a wave of change in how >money is used to multiply money.The people following the new >practice could choose not to do business with those clinging to the old way, >interpreting it as 'cheating'. > A robust system has to at least tolerate clever people acting in their own self interest.The profits from financial instruments are so big that just making something taboo wouldn't slow rational people from doing it. It would have to be illegal to significantly slow, and that would require a broad consensus throughout the major governments and financial centers of the world not to mention a highly-instrumented banking data processing infrastructure for enforcement by agents acting in the public interest. Maybe Ralph Nader in front of a terminal press "Y" and "N"?Perhaps funders of terrorism will motivate such a system and it could then be retasked? Another view is that the `explosions' are unavoidable and akin evolutionarily to punctuated equillibrium.Some problems can only be addressed with huge wealth and a focus that a democracy may have trouble finding. Thus the Gaia of $$$ finds people like Bill & Melinda Gates, and Warren Buffett to soak up the excess and ultimately channel it. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution
Doug writes, > Phil writes. > > "I think that would have the usual negative side effects of > imposing political controls on 'free' markets." > > > I think we have been led down the wrong path. Marts are free > and interesting. Capitalism however is a process of control > of markets, using the state apparatus and the very > boundedness of the nation state to control money, interest > and markets. Our problem is not markets but capitalism. Since > capital seeks controls, the only way to prevent the > distortion (concentration of wealth and power) is state > intervention. Capitalism is like an organism, a physical/social system that grew out of human values and talents, that we tend to refer to as if someone was in charge.That may be the only way our language allows us to speak about such things yet, but I think most people understand that no one really designed it, runs it, built it, or quite understands it. Still, it's no illusion to imagine it has a behavior of its own, that it has many different kinds of cells and circuits, that it looks different from every perspective. I'm not sure what it means to say 'since capital seeks controls'. Perhaps that's about the roots of capitalism in how people use power to multiply power and dominate. The countervailing force in capitalism is its stimulus of individual creativity, which has been a very effective counter to the worst effects of attempted social control by the powerful. I don't agree, though, that state intervention is needed to change what causes the worst parts of the problem, the system's strong tendency of wreck anything good by overdoing it. That's a perpetual trap. The scenario I have in mind is of certain information getting around, and the idea of endless growth loosing its credibility, for a critical mass of influential people. That could cause a wave of change in how money is used to multiply money.The people following the new practice could choose not to do business with those clinging to the old way, interpreting it as 'cheating'. That could 'flip the feedback switch' of the global system and allow it to stabilize. There actually are huge and growing numbers of rich folks, buying certified organic food and certified 'sustainable' design, who haven't quite recognized that they're living a lie by drawing their wealth from various kinds of un-sustainable development. I think it's quite possible the right information could let them see the contradictions in that. > Remember, the state interfered by chartering > corporations in the first place. Tweaking the charters > towards some modest form of bias away from concentration is > just a correction on the existing dependence of corporations > on state regulation. There are indeed a great many choices for how to make investment 'unprofitable'. That's the strange necessary requirement for any sustainable economic system. On the face of it it's 'ridiculous', but you can see the humor by reasoning that it's no more unthinkable than our having actually built our life support system on the natural system model of a bomb! (all explosion all the time!) The trick is to find a way to unplug it that still makes evolving businesses rewarding and fun. That's what the right interpretation of the change I propose would do. The basic question is still, how can large groups of people stay responsive to change, and not be caught off guard by mass delusion and beliefs that are held long beyond their usefulness. Today the most popular thing in the world, our system of multiplying our own creativity, has been found to have no way to stop. Looks to me like a reasonable cause for a little extra spurt of creativity! > Doug Carmichael > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/586 - Release > Date: 12/13/2006 6:13 PM > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] FW: 3rd (FINAL) CALL, UCLA LAKE ARROWHEAD HUMAN COMPLEX SYSTEMS CONFERENCE
I'd like to be there, but only as spectator, Owen. Pamela On Dec 14, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: How many of us would like to, or plan to, go? I'd like to put something together based on our work since the last meeting. -- Owen Owen Densmore http://backspaces.net On Dec 14, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Stephen Guerin wrote: abstracts due tomorrow... -Original Message- From: Dario Nardi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: 3rd (FINAL) CALL, UCLA LAKE ARROWHEAD HUMAN COMPLEX SYSTEMS CONFERENCE FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org "My idea of good company, Mr. Elliot, is the company of clever, well- informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company." "You are mistaken," said he gently, "that is not good company, that is the best." Jane Austen, Persuasion FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] FW: 3rd (FINAL) CALL, UCLA LAKE ARROWHEAD HUMAN COMPLEX SYSTEMS CONFERENCE
How many of us would like to, or plan to, go? I'd like to put something together based on our work since the last meeting. -- Owen Owen Densmore http://backspaces.net On Dec 14, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Stephen Guerin wrote: > abstracts due tomorrow... > >> -Original Message- >> From: Dario Nardi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:19 AM >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: 3rd (FINAL) CALL, UCLA LAKE ARROWHEAD HUMAN COMPLEX >> SYSTEMS CONFERENCE FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
[FRIAM] FW: 3rd (FINAL) CALL, UCLA LAKE ARROWHEAD HUMAN COMPLEX SYSTEMS CONFERENCE
abstracts due tomorrow... > -Original Message- > From: Dario Nardi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:19 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: 3rd (FINAL) CALL, UCLA LAKE ARROWHEAD HUMAN COMPLEX > SYSTEMS CONFERENCE > > > Please Join Us! > > The 4th UCLA Lake Arrowhead Conference on Human Complex > Systems April 25th - April 29th, 2007 Lake Arrowhead, CA, USA > > We look forward to another cross-disciplinary gathering of > social scientists > > who employ cutting-edge agent-based computational modeling > and related computational ideas and methods in their research > and teaching. As in past years, you will find dozens of > presentations from various disciplines. We are also hosting > evening panels, another "live" simulation, and opportunities > for networking and relaxation amid gorgeous surroundings. > > This year's conference is once again at the UCLA Lake > Arrowhead Conference Center in Southern California, just a > few hours outside Los Angeles. All lodging, meals, conference > fees, and transportation to/from Los Angeles are included in > one easy package. > > For full details, printable PDFs, and registration > information, please visit http://www.hcs.ucla.edu/arrowhead.htm > > IMPORTANT DATES > Please keep in mind the following dates and times. > -- December 15, 2006: Submit your 300-word abstract to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Abstracts submitted after this deadline will be put > on a waiting list. > -- December 26, 2006: Notification of abstract acceptance. > -- January 15, 2007. Payment due. > Cancellations made after this are refunded minus $180 > for processing. > -- March 26, 2007: Cancellations after this point receive no refund. > -- April 25, 2007 (evening): Conference kick off. > -- April 28, 2007 (evening): Conference closing. > -- April 29, 2007: Breakfast and van return to Los Angeles. > > Many have given rave reviews of this conference in the past. > We hope to see you there! > > Sincerely, > The UCLA Human Complex Systems faculty (Phil Bonacich, > Nicholas Gessler, Susanne Lohmann, Bill McKelvey, Dario > Nardi, Dwight Read, Francis Steen) > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution
Douglass Carmichael wrote: > Tweaking the > charters towards some modest form of bias away from concentration is just a > correction on the existing dependence of corporations on state regulation. If the idea is to avoid the fragile concentration of power in the hands of a small number of mere mortals (e.g. leaders that do dumb things and impact many people for the worse), more changes than just the tax codes (e.g. heavily taxing profits) would be needed as there'd still be the possibility of reinvesting the earnings in the companies themselves. The ways in which unregulated reinvestment could occur might easily result in a different sort of concentration of power. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution
Phil writes. "I think that would have the usual negative side effects of imposing political controls on 'free' markets." I think we have been led down the wrong path. Marts are free and interesting. Capitalism however is a process of control of markets, using the state apparatus and the very boundedness of the nation state to control money, interest and markets. Our problem is not markets but capitalism. Since capital seeks controls, the only way to prevent the distortion (concentration of wealth and power) is state intervention. Remember, the state interfered by chartering corporations in the first place. Tweaking the charters towards some modest form of bias away from concentration is just a correction on the existing dependence of corporations on state regulation. Doug Carmichael -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/586 - Release Date: 12/13/2006 6:13 PM FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
