Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

[Russ Abbott]

Yes, I definitely wanted Bruce's post.


*-- Russ Abbott*
*_*
***  Professor, Computer Science*
*  California State University, Los Angeles*

*  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688*
*  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
  Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
*  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
  CS Wiki  and the courses I teach
*_*


On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@redfish.com> wrote:
>
>> Aya, it turns out Bruce recently unsubscribed from FRIAM. I hope you guys
>> on the list are happy with your signal to noise ratio ;-)Just
>> kidding...keep it up.
>>
>
> OT, but:  I think we failed a test.  Maybe we should split the list?  Or
> use wedtech exclusively for physics, programming, etc?
>
> I now simply don't know who is on what list, nor what their interests are.
>  I'm sure Russ wanted Bruce's post, right?
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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[FRIAM] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_airship -- Rich Murray 2013.04.20

[Rich Murray]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_airship -- Rich Murray 2013.04.20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_airship

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Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

[Owen Densmore]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Stephen Guerin
wrote:

> Aya, it turns out Bruce recently unsubscribed from FRIAM. I hope you guys
> on the list are happy with your signal to noise ratio ;-)Just
> kidding...keep it up.
>

OT, but:  I think we failed a test.  Maybe we should split the list?  Or
use wedtech exclusively for physics, programming, etc?

I now simply don't know who is on what list, nor what their interests are.
 I'm sure Russ wanted Bruce's post, right?

   -- Owen

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Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

[Nicholas Thompson]

Steve, 

I you are going to destroy an entire morning of mine by tempting me to go to
the XKCD website, I am going to return the favor.  http://xkcd.com/1162/

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

Too bad we don't have Bruce and Ruth here to jury this sideshow, but still!

I was always disturbed by the "rubber sheet" description of Gravitational
Forces.

In the spirit of circular logic, I was always left wondering when the models
of say the sun and a planet or two were set down onto the "rubber sheet" to
show how their masses distort the "fabric of time and space", the question
always popped up for me... "just what pulls those massive objects down to
distort the rubber sheet?  Gravity?"

Everything you need to know about "Life, the Universe and Everything" 
can be found in XKCD. I think Randall Munroe has been listening to our
conversations here and making fun of us behind our backs!

http://xkcd.com/1158/


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Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

[Steve Smith]

Too bad we don't have Bruce and Ruth here to jury this sideshow, but still!

I was always disturbed by the "rubber sheet" description of 
Gravitational Forces.


In the spirit of circular logic, I was always left wondering when the 
models of say the sun and a planet or two were set down onto the "rubber 
sheet" to show how their masses distort the "fabric of time and space", 
the question always popped up for me... "just what pulls those massive 
objects down to distort the rubber sheet?  Gravity?"


Everything you need to know about "Life, the Universe and Everything" 
can be found in XKCD. I think Randall Munroe has been listening to our 
conversations here and making fun of us behind our backs!


http://xkcd.com/1158/


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

[Steve Smith]

Gil-

hmm:
So what happens if a repulicon and a boson colide?
I think it just did... we'll have to see how it turns out...  watch for 
distortions in your field.


- Boson



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Re: [FRIAM] How do forces work?

[Gillian Densmore]

hmm:
So what happens if a repulicon and a boson colide?

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

>  leptons-
>
> I think it is all "intermediate vector bosons"... or maybe I just like the
> way that phrase sounds?
>
> -boson
>
>  Thanks for all the answers. To answer John's question first, magnetism
> doesn't seem miraculous (it's too familiar), but I can't say I understand
> how it works. It was just that question about magnetism that Feynman was
> asked as the start of the video in
> which he danced around the question before saying he couldn't give an
> intuitive answer.
>
>  What would a satisfying answer look like? That's a very good question.
> Superficially it would be something like a sophisticated version of
> billiard balls: when one hits another, energy is transferred. But even that
> doesn't work well when looked at carefully.  What happens in detail when
> one hits another. If the two objects were absolutely solid, how would one
> "feel" the impact of the other. Would the transfer simply become a
> primitive? If they were somewhat springy, how does that springyness work?
> And besides, there must be some surface-like thing that receives the impact
> and something more internal that absorbs it.
>
>  Bruce's QM photon explanation is pretty close to what I'm looking for,
> but as he notes, it only works for repulsive forces. It also relies on
> primitives. In that case the emission and absorption of a photon and the
> associated transfer of energy seem to be primitive actions.
>
>  The papers by Hobson look very interesting. They even look like I can
> read them.  I haven't done that yet, though.
>
>  As a software person, a good explanation is often something like an API.
> How does one object interact with another? We know that objects have
> capabilities (specified by their APIs), and that it's possible for one
> object to trigger the performance of a capability in another object. We
> don't ask how the triggering event gets from one to the other. That's magic
> at a lower level. We just assume that it can happen and that there isn't
> anything more to say about it at the object level of abstraction.
>
>  So I would be (somewhat) happy with an answer that said (a) what the
> capabilities are (something like a API for elementary particles/fields)
> and (b) what the non-decomposable primitive actions are, e.g., like emit
> and absorb.
>
>
>
>
>  *-- Russ Abbott*
> *_*
> *  Professor, Computer Science*
> *  California State University, Los Angeles*
>
>  *  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
> *
> *  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
>   Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
> *  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
>   CS Wiki  and the courses I teach
> *_*
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:06 PM, John Kennison wrote:
>
>> Russ,
>>
>> Before people knew about magnetism, it must have seemed miraculous that
>> two stones would spontaneously start to move toward (or away from) each
>> other. Now we can say,  "Oh, it's just magnetism". But if we think about
>> long enough, we may still wonder how two objects can move toward or away
>> from each other. My question would be, "Does magnetism still seem a bit
>> miraculous, or do you feel your question is answered, at least for
>> magnetism? In either case, what would a satisfying answer look like?"
>>
>> John
>>
>> 
>> From: Friam [friam-boun...@redfish.com] on behalf of Russ Abbott [
>> russ.abb...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 1:50 PM
>> To: FRIAM
>> Subject: [FRIAM] How do forces work?
>>
>> Yesterday I asked this question<
>> http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/61542/how-do-forces-work?noredirect=1#comment123788_61542>
>> on StackExchange: physics.
>>
>> Is there a mechanistic-type explanation for how forces work? For example,
>> two electrons repel each other. How does that happen? Other than saying
>> that there are force fields that exert forces, how does the electromagnetic
>> force accomplish its effects. What is the interface/link/connection between
>> the force (field) and the objects on which it acts. Or is all we can say is
>> that it just happens: it's a physics primitive?
>>
>> So far, there haven't been any answers that feel satisfying--although,
>> please look at them yourselves. One of the comments pointed to a 7 1/2
>> minute video by Feynman, in which he talks around the problem before
>> finally saying he can't provide an intuitive explanation. I don't think it
>> was one of his better efforts. Does anyone on this list have an answer?
>>
>> -- Russ Abbott
>> _
>>   Professor, Computer Science
>>   California State University, Los Angeles
>>
>>My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977