Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Gillian Densmore]

Other than mice their's Cayotes, Possumes or Racoons. Years ago One had
found it's way into my garbage bin. I have no idea how it openned the lid,
and tried to find scraps of food. I found in the morning before work, just
as I was putting a bag into the thing. It looked pretty proud of it self.
One of the people that lives in the ally behind the house used to make a
bit of money chasing them away or caching them.
In my case I just left it to sleep in their. Fortately the animal helping
folks at the time were pros with these things and had some amusingly simple
(and kind of fun) ways to deel with it. Get a cheep and small pizza  leave
crumbs to it away from the house and it might go for the (easy) to get
food, then close the lid. so it won't try to to back.

I also had (briefly) a possum  snoring in the chimney. That was one of the
years when it dumped a bunch of snow. I have no idea how on earth it got
into it, muchless get a way to sleep.I put screen for fires so it wouldn't
try to go foraging in the house. Just left it their. For What It's Worth
the animal guys were pretty sure it was lost and trying to find a place to
sleep or hybernate. and it'd probably eventually leave to get food. Well if
it cant get into the house it'll have to leave how it came. Rob had
basically a simillar problem a few times. I Just left the screen so it
can't get into the house.

Then their was the batS that decided the vega's (in the house) were clearly
Bat Friendly...momy and dady bat thought happly slept (upside down) from
the ceiling. I don't know where the kid was They didn't do much but look at
me like was bonkers. I carefully put blankets around the bathroom. Hoping
they'd hear (sonar) or see (their poor sight)  a wall and go someplace
else. Sufficed to say by the time Animal Help came I guess mom found Jr.
and their was now three bats. Possibly fruit bats that were after masquitos
or stuff from the trees and thought my room was a great place to sleep.

Animal help put all three in a bucket. They didn't think they had plague or
rabie, they were possibly sick with something else, and would want to find
out.  They checked to make sure they didn't leave a mess behind, but just
in case left yellow/white powder around the floor to sweep up  the next day.


I do have some landminds (micetraps) both the deadly and a few not deadly
kind to deel with mice. Amusingly those are much more of anissue than the
other animals here as they get into almost anything, carry plague and
hunters virus. The field mice we have here are not the (relatively)
friendlyish roof or house mice. common to arizona and california. FWIW pest
control claims it's far better to trap a few and blow up others because
they come in packs, their not a direct threat to humans the bugs they cary
though are. plus as I found out they love human scraps and will litterally
get into anything not nailed shut.
After the big problem I ocasionally find some in the traps. wich is
a...unusual sight at 4am I



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:16 PM,  wrote:

> I regularly caught skunks in our  Hav-a-Hart trap (bought and intended for
> woodchucks).
> Never attached a long (or short) cord to the release mechanism, but I
> always opened the cage
> wearing a bathing suit (or less).  One time, the damned skunk really
> didn't want to leave; I
> think it was about to become a mother, but for whatever reason, it had
> spent the night
> carefully tearing up dried grass from underneath the cage and making a
> nice little nest for
> itself.  Eventually I cautiously tilted the closed end of the trap up and
> evenually the
> inhabitant found the angle uncomfortable enough to walk out the closed
> end.  At which point I
> ran back to the house.  But no spraying happened, nor was the nest
> reinhabited.
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[lrudolph]

I regularly caught skunks in our  Hav-a-Hart trap (bought and intended for 
woodchucks).
Never attached a long (or short) cord to the release mechanism, but I always 
opened the cage 
wearing a bathing suit (or less).  One time, the damned skunk really didn't 
want to leave; I 
think it was about to become a mother, but for whatever reason, it had spent 
the night 
carefully tearing up dried grass from underneath the cage and making a nice 
little nest for 
itself.  Eventually I cautiously tilted the closed end of the trap up and 
evenually the 
inhabitant found the angle uncomfortable enough to walk out the closed end.  At 
which point I 
ran back to the house.  But no spraying happened, nor was the nest reinhabited.


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Vladimyr]

Nick,

If memory serves me, we used Tomahawk Traps and they required both hands to  
set or open.

Nowadays I rescue spiders from my bathtub and transplant milkweed to feed 
Monarchs.

 

Maybe as people change so should organizations which seem saturated with 
hormones.

 

Hormones , booze, heavy machinery and loud music make for a difficult time when 
thinking about consequences.

 

Men only learn to think long after it was needed.

vib

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: March-22-17 10:16 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

When setting a have-a-heart trap, it is always wise to attach a LONG cord to 
the release mechanism, just in case you catch something you don’t want to.  

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Vladimyr
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 6:21 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

Marcus, That sounds preferable to Trapping the little devil. They get really 
mean if you get in their way.

So clearly a little tactful negotiation is preferable , as I recall my advisor 
at that time flipped a coin to determine

who would have to approach the cage trap and release him. 

 

I lost. 

vib

 

He is probably still laughing…

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: March-21-17 10:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

“At some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet in front of me.  If I had had a 
rifle I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But instead I aimed carefully and 
dispatched the skunk.  The last days of the wild west.”

 

I once had a hot tub which I used mostly to lower my blood pressure after day 
(after day) of frustration at work.  There may have been some drinking involved 
too.  A common visitor late at night was a neighborhood skunk who’d poke its 
nose over the side.   Alarming at first but I came to look forward from visits 
from that little guy.  

 

Not sure how it works in to Vladimyr’s metaphor.  

 

Marcus

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Nick Thompson]

When setting a have-a-heart trap, it is always wise to attach a LONG cord to 
the release mechanism, just in case you catch something you don’t want to.  

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Vladimyr
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 6:21 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

Marcus, That sounds preferable to Trapping the little devil. They get really 
mean if you get in their way.

So clearly a little tactful negotiation is preferable , as I recall my advisor 
at that time flipped a coin to determine

who would have to approach the cage trap and release him. 

 

I lost. 

vib

 

He is probably still laughing…

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: March-21-17 10:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

“At some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet in front of me.  If I had had a 
rifle I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But instead I aimed carefully and 
dispatched the skunk.  The last days of the wild west.”

 

I once had a hot tub which I used mostly to lower my blood pressure after day 
(after day) of frustration at work.  There may have been some drinking involved 
too.  A common visitor late at night was a neighborhood skunk who’d poke its 
nose over the side.   Alarming at first but I came to look forward from visits 
from that little guy.  

 

Not sure how it works in to Vladimyr’s metaphor.  

 

Marcus

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Frank Wimberly]

Yes, as I said, I was approximately 50 feet away.  I was afraid to approach
the body even though it was clearly dead.  I told the aforementioned
professor what I had done and he expressed his disapproval.  I was afraid
to run away rather than to shoot thinking that might provoke the skunk.
Mea Maxima culpa.  I am happy to join your organization.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Mar 22, 2017 6:28 PM, "Vladimyr"  wrote:

> To the only other self admitted Skunk Shooter,
>
>
>
> I was much closer, the gun , a .22 cal , the muzzle was inside a wire
> cage, my guess I was less than a barrel length away. The shot completely
> severed the spinal cord at the base of the skull.
>
> Skunks do not require a brain to complete this instinctive discharge. Or
> perhaps the brain while intact serves as a restraint.
>
>
>
> So sudden decapitation will not work as I once thought.
>
> Maybe skunk guns should have very long barrels… Just a thought.
>
>
>
> I was also a graduate biology student collecting blood samples to test for
> Virus antibodies.
>
> We need a Tee Shirt when we go carousing. First chapter of Skunk Shooters
> International…
>
> vib
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* March-21-17 10:24 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] organizations
>
>
>
> Speaking of shooting skunks: in the summer of 1962 I worked on a ranch
> about 20 miles south of Santa Fe.  There was a young divorcee who lived
> nearby who freaked out when she saw strangers and she left a note on our
> truck threatening to shoot us.  I consulted her neighbor, who was a
> professor of English Literature at UNM.  He said that if she knew who we
> were she would welcome having us around (two college students on summer
> break).  He suggested that I stop by and introduce myself.  I did so late
> that afternoon and I took along a 12 gauge shotgun which I discretely left
> outside​.  After a pleasant conversation I walked back to our place by
> taking a shortcut over a mesa.  At some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet
> in front of me.  If I had had a rifle I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But
> instead I aimed carefully and dispatched the skunk.  The last days of the
> wild west. Today I'd probably be arrested for felony abuse of an animal,
> perhaps with justification.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your indulgence.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2017 8:47 PM, "Vladimyr"  wrote:
>
> Marcus hit it on the head but the only detectable  difference is that one
> structure is deluded by hypocrisy and the other is stripped down naked.
>
> Both stink up the air. But the gullible facilitate our problem on both
> sides of the northern border. If anyone even suggests a northern wall send
> them to the lunatic
>
> asylum as soon as possible. Trump is frightening the chickens in the coop
> like a skunk wandering through the night.
>
>
>
> I once shot a skunk and will never forget the stench… Never again, even
> the rifle had to be disposed .
>
> That stench is like a chemical burn and hurts like an  Alkaline burn. You
> southerners are welcome to all the skunks that you want.
>
>
>
> Don’t  abuse the lemmings because of Walt Disney’s hoax and film
>  trickery. They are actually quite sensible.
>
>
>
> Why do organizations protect skunks…
>
> vib
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger
> Critchlow
> *Sent:* March-20-17 1:26 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] organizations
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Someone like that can be taken down by a faster or stronger dog.  The
> problem is that he has the lemmings..   Lemmings are the problem.
>
>
>
> I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  Or
> some kind of mixed martial art?
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Vladimyr]

To the only other self admitted Skunk Shooter,

 

I was much closer, the gun , a .22 cal , the muzzle was inside a wire cage, my 
guess I was less than a barrel length away. The shot completely severed the 
spinal cord at the base of the skull.

Skunks do not require a brain to complete this instinctive discharge. Or 
perhaps the brain while intact serves as a restraint.

 

So sudden decapitation will not work as I once thought.

Maybe skunk guns should have very long barrels… Just a thought.

 

I was also a graduate biology student collecting blood samples to test for 
Virus antibodies. 

We need a Tee Shirt when we go carousing. First chapter of Skunk Shooters 
International…

vib

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: March-21-17 10:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

Speaking of shooting skunks: in the summer of 1962 I worked on a ranch about 20 
miles south of Santa Fe.  There was a young divorcee who lived nearby who 
freaked out when she saw strangers and she left a note on our truck threatening 
to shoot us.  I consulted her neighbor, who was a professor of English 
Literature at UNM.  He said that if she knew who we were she would welcome 
having us around (two college students on summer break).  He suggested that I 
stop by and introduce myself.  I did so late that afternoon and I took along a 
12 gauge shotgun which I discretely left outside​.  After a pleasant 
conversation I walked back to our place by taking a shortcut over a mesa.  At 
some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet in front of me.  If I had had a rifle 
I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But instead I aimed carefully and dispatched 
the skunk.  The last days of the wild west. Today I'd probably be arrested for 
felony abuse of an animal, perhaps with justification.

 

Thank you for your indulgence.

 

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Mar 21, 2017 8:47 PM, "Vladimyr"  wrote:

Marcus hit it on the head but the only detectable  difference is that one 
structure is deluded by hypocrisy and the other is stripped down naked.

Both stink up the air. But the gullible facilitate our problem on both sides of 
the northern border. If anyone even suggests a northern wall send them to the 
lunatic

asylum as soon as possible. Trump is frightening the chickens in the coop like 
a skunk wandering through the night.

 

I once shot a skunk and will never forget the stench… Never again, even the 
rifle had to be disposed .

That stench is like a chemical burn and hurts like an  Alkaline burn. You 
southerners are welcome to all the skunks that you want.

 

Don’t  abuse the lemmings because of Walt Disney’s hoax and film  trickery. 
They are actually quite sensible.

 

Why do organizations protect skunks…

vib

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: March-20-17 1:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

 

Someone like that can be taken down by a faster or stronger dog.  The problem 
is that he has the lemmings..   Lemmings are the problem.

 

I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  Or some 
kind of mixed martial art?

 

-- rec --

 



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Vladimyr]

Marcus, That sounds preferable to Trapping the little devil. They get really 
mean if you get in their way.

So clearly a little tactful negotiation is preferable , as I recall my advisor 
at that time flipped a coin to determine

who would have to approach the cage trap and release him. 

 

I lost. 

vib

 

He is probably still laughing…

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: March-21-17 10:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

“At some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet in front of me.  If I had had a 
rifle I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But instead I aimed carefully and 
dispatched the skunk.  The last days of the wild west.”

 

I once had a hot tub which I used mostly to lower my blood pressure after day 
(after day) of frustration at work.  There may have been some drinking involved 
too.  A common visitor late at night was a neighborhood skunk who’d poke its 
nose over the side.   Alarming at first but I came to look forward from visits 
from that little guy.  

 

Not sure how it works in to Vladimyr’s metaphor.  

 

Marcus

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Marcus Daniels]

“At some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet in front of me.  If I had had a 
rifle I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But instead I aimed carefully and 
dispatched the skunk.  The last days of the wild west.”

I once had a hot tub which I used mostly to lower my blood pressure after day 
(after day) of frustration at work.  There may have been some drinking involved 
too.  A common visitor late at night was a neighborhood skunk who’d poke its 
nose over the side.   Alarming at first but I came to look forward from visits 
from that little guy.

Not sure how it works in to Vladimyr’s metaphor.

Marcus


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Frank Wimberly]

Speaking of shooting skunks: in the summer of 1962 I worked on a ranch
about 20 miles south of Santa Fe.  There was a young divorcee who lived
nearby who freaked out when she saw strangers and she left a note on our
truck threatening to shoot us.  I consulted her neighbor, who was a
professor of English Literature at UNM.  He said that if she knew who we
were she would welcome having us around (two college students on summer
break).  He suggested that I stop by and introduce myself.  I did so late
that afternoon and I took along a 12 gauge shotgun which I discretely left
outside​.  After a pleasant conversation I walked back to our place by
taking a shortcut over a mesa.  At some point I saw a skunk about 50 feet
in front of me.  If I had had a rifle I'd have made a hasty retreat.  But
instead I aimed carefully and dispatched the skunk.  The last days of the
wild west. Today I'd probably be arrested for felony abuse of an animal,
perhaps with justification.

Thank you for your indulgence.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Mar 21, 2017 8:47 PM, "Vladimyr"  wrote:

> Marcus hit it on the head but the only detectable  difference is that one
> structure is deluded by hypocrisy and the other is stripped down naked.
>
> Both stink up the air. But the gullible facilitate our problem on both
> sides of the northern border. If anyone even suggests a northern wall send
> them to the lunatic
>
> asylum as soon as possible. Trump is frightening the chickens in the coop
> like a skunk wandering through the night.
>
>
>
> I once shot a skunk and will never forget the stench… Never again, even
> the rifle had to be disposed .
>
> That stench is like a chemical burn and hurts like an  Alkaline burn. You
> southerners are welcome to all the skunks that you want.
>
>
>
> Don’t  abuse the lemmings because of Walt Disney’s hoax and film
>  trickery. They are actually quite sensible.
>
>
>
> Why do organizations protect skunks…
>
> vib
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger
> Critchlow
> *Sent:* March-20-17 1:26 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] organizations
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Someone like that can be taken down by a faster or stronger dog.  The
> problem is that he has the lemmings..   Lemmings are the problem.
>
>
>
> I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  Or
> some kind of mixed martial art?
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Vladimyr]

Marcus hit it on the head but the only detectable  difference is that one 
structure is deluded by hypocrisy and the other is stripped down naked.

Both stink up the air. But the gullible facilitate our problem on both sides of 
the northern border. If anyone even suggests a northern wall send them to the 
lunatic

asylum as soon as possible. Trump is frightening the chickens in the coop like 
a skunk wandering through the night.

 

I once shot a skunk and will never forget the stench… Never again, even the 
rifle had to be disposed .

That stench is like a chemical burn and hurts like an  Alkaline burn. You 
southerners are welcome to all the skunks that you want.

 

Don’t  abuse the lemmings because of Walt Disney’s hoax and film  trickery. 
They are actually quite sensible.

 

Why do organizations protect skunks…

vib

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: March-20-17 1:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

 

Someone like that can be taken down by a faster or stronger dog.  The problem 
is that he has the lemmings..   Lemmings are the problem.

 

I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  Or some 
kind of mixed martial art?

 

-- rec --

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Steven A Smith]

Marcus wrote:


*Roger writes:*

**

*“*I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  
Or some kind of mixed martial art?”


Imagine you work in team made of up of unmotivated, uninterested or 
untalented individuals.  Assume it is impossible to fire or move them 
out of the way.   They mainly want predictability they can get out of 
the office by 5:00pm every day; they want a process for everything so 
that they can measure-up and continue to get steady raises.   The last 
thing these lemmings want are individuals running ahead with proposals 
they would have to work to understand.   That could have bad 
consequences like having their expertise or productivity questioned 
and them moving lower in the curve.


One that happens in this situation is that people don’t want to have 
deep technical conversations.   They want shallow, easily-digestible 
guidance and at a pace that isn’t going to cause them to miss their 
daughter’s soccer practice or forget to water their garden or whatever 
it is they do care about.   They want it put on their `agile feed’ so 
they can turn their crank and get their points for the day.   Other 
people may mainly care about their `emotional health’ and this will 
involve similar considerations about never feel condescended to, even 
if they aren’t be condescended to, but are simply experiencing ignorance.



Sounds just like what I remember from when I worked at LANL?  Oh wait!


The desire to enforce norms on group behavior invariably involves 
isolating the top performers.   Much of the prattle in that 18F markup 
file is about how to do that without looking like a total moron. 
  It’s the same kind of note-comparing social contagion where one 
Trump voter convinces the other that it is okay to engage in a bizarre 
act of national sabotage.


The question is, who makes the rules and for what purpose? The 
lemmings will want the line between normal and abnormal behavior in 
one area, and the frontier-pushers will want it in another.  An 
organization that gives the lemmings what they want will have more 
stability, but they probably won’t be innovators.  They may even fail 
to be competitive.


Frontier-pushers aren’t going to like Trump-like behavior, because 
Trump-like behavior is stupid and leads to more dittohead lemmings.   
So it is also in their interest to find a faster or bigger dog to take 
down uncivil (in their definition) behavior too.   Depending on their 
culture they may do this quietly or by making an example out of that 
individual in front of everyone.


I've heard rumor that there was an official memo at LANL (a month or 
more ago) forbidding political discussions at work?  Can you confirm or 
deny?



- Steve

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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Marcus Daniels]

Roger writes:

“I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  Or some 
kind of mixed martial art?”

Imagine you work in team made of up of unmotivated, uninterested or untalented 
individuals.  Assume it is impossible to fire or move them out of the way.   
They mainly want predictability they can get out of the office by 5:00pm every 
day; they want a process for everything so that they can measure-up and 
continue to get steady raises.   The last thing these lemmings want are 
individuals running ahead with proposals they would have to work to understand. 
  That could have bad consequences like having their expertise or productivity 
questioned and them moving lower in the curve.

One that happens in this situation is that people don’t want to have deep 
technical conversations.   They want shallow, easily-digestible guidance and at 
a pace that isn’t going to cause them to miss their daughter’s soccer practice 
or forget to water their garden or whatever it is they do care about.   They 
want it put on their `agile feed’ so they can turn their crank and get their 
points for the day.   Other people may mainly care about their `emotional 
health’ and this will involve similar considerations about never feel 
condescended to, even if they aren’t be condescended to, but are simply 
experiencing ignorance.

The desire to enforce norms on group behavior invariably involves isolating the 
top performers.   Much of the prattle in that 18F markup file is about how to 
do that without looking like a total moron.   It’s the same kind of 
note-comparing social contagion where one Trump voter convinces the other that 
it is okay to engage in a bizarre act of national sabotage.

The question is, who makes the rules and for what purpose?   The lemmings will 
want the line between normal and abnormal behavior in one area, and the 
frontier-pushers will want it in another.  An organization that gives the 
lemmings what they want will have more stability, but they probably won’t be 
innovators.  They may even fail to be competitive.

Frontier-pushers aren’t going to like Trump-like behavior, because Trump-like 
behavior is stupid and leads to more dittohead lemmings.   So it is also in 
their interest to find a faster or bigger dog to take down uncivil (in their 
definition) behavior too.   Depending on their culture they may do this quietly 
or by making an example out of that individual in front of everyone.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Roger Critchlow]

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:
>
>
>
> Someone like that can be taken down by a faster or stronger dog.  The
> problem is that he has the lemmings..   Lemmings are the problem.
>
>
>
I don't get it, is it detailed technical planning or dog fighting?  Or some
kind of mixed martial art?

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Marcus Daniels]

“For ordinary people, with ordinary management, attempting to complete an 
ordinary software project, let them scrum and they'll do better than they will 
with an ordinary tyrant micromanaging the project.”

It all sounds pretty ordinary.

“If you have a heroic software problem and a budget appropriate to the problem, 
then by all means bring in the big guns and do trial by technical criticism.  
But even then, there are standards of conduct that are understood to apply.   
Coming into the meetings like Donald Trump would make for an edgier debate than 
you're talking about, no?”

Someone like that can be taken down by a faster or stronger dog.  The problem 
is that he has the lemmings..   Lemmings are the problem.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Merle Lefkoff]

Hey, Roger.  Any ideas for how to recruit 18F for the Revolution?  We need
all the "inside disrupters" we can get!

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I think you're overstating the hazard here.  For ordinary people, with
> ordinary management, attempting to complete an ordinary software project,
> let them scrum and they'll do better than they will with an ordinary tyrant
> micromanaging the project.  If you have a heroic software problem and a
> budget appropriate to the problem, then by all means bring in the big guns
> and do trial by technical criticism.  But even then, there are standards of
> conduct that are understood to apply.   Coming into the meetings like
> Donald Trump would make for an edgier debate than you're talking about, no?
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 2:04 AM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> Two groups that start with the premise that the whole (a team) is more
>> than the sum of its parts and will FOREVER advocate social collaboration
>> tools and behavioral guidelines ad nauseam to make sure that the social but
>> otherwise ordinary team members will always be able to delay coherent
>> technical planning, or (worse!) edgy debates where any proposition could be
>> shown to be poorly motivated or false.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger
>> Critchlow
>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 19, 2017 11:36 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] organizations
>>
>>
>>
>> I dunno, you think there's a connection between
>> diversity/intersectionality and agile design?  They always harp on hearing
>> the quiet voice that's telling the important truth.  Seems like agile's
>> main point is that the clients really want something much simpler than they
>> can be talked into, but you have to convince all the coders that that is
>> true, or else they'll build, or fail to build, something much more
>> complicated than necessary.  So you organize as a team of lemmings and
>> crowd source the design to death.
>>
>>
>>
>> When life gives you lemmings, scrum.  (Life is usually going to give you
>> lemmings.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>> “It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what
>> they do, and why they might make an issue of how they want to work together
>> with each other and their clients.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of agile-speak.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>



-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefk...@gmail.com 
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2

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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Roger Critchlow]

I think you're overstating the hazard here.  For ordinary people, with
ordinary management, attempting to complete an ordinary software project,
let them scrum and they'll do better than they will with an ordinary tyrant
micromanaging the project.  If you have a heroic software problem and a
budget appropriate to the problem, then by all means bring in the big guns
and do trial by technical criticism.  But even then, there are standards of
conduct that are understood to apply.   Coming into the meetings like
Donald Trump would make for an edgier debate than you're talking about, no?

-- rec --

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 2:04 AM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> Two groups that start with the premise that the whole (a team) is more
> than the sum of its parts and will FOREVER advocate social collaboration
> tools and behavioral guidelines ad nauseam to make sure that the social but
> otherwise ordinary team members will always be able to delay coherent
> technical planning, or (worse!) edgy debates where any proposition could be
> shown to be poorly motivated or false.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger
> Critchlow
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 19, 2017 11:36 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] organizations
>
>
>
> I dunno, you think there's a connection between
> diversity/intersectionality and agile design?  They always harp on hearing
> the quiet voice that's telling the important truth.  Seems like agile's
> main point is that the clients really want something much simpler than they
> can be talked into, but you have to convince all the coders that that is
> true, or else they'll build, or fail to build, something much more
> complicated than necessary.  So you organize as a team of lemmings and
> crowd source the design to death.
>
>
>
> When life gives you lemmings, scrum.  (Life is usually going to give you
> lemmings.)
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> “It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what they
> do, and why they might make an issue of how they want to work together with
> each other and their clients.”
>
>
>
> Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of agile-speak.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Marcus Daniels]

When life gives you lemmings, find a cliff and a large body of water..

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2017 7:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations


Roger -

Bravo!

"When life gives you lemmngs, scrum"

Some of your one-liners are better than the great Yogi's
- Steve
On 3/19/17 11:36 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
I dunno, you think there's a connection between diversity/intersectionality and 
agile design?  They always harp on hearing the quiet voice that's telling the 
important truth.  Seems like agile's main point is that the clients really want 
something much simpler than they can be talked into, but you have to convince 
all the coders that that is true, or else they'll build, or fail to build, 
something much more complicated than necessary.  So you organize as a team of 
lemmings and crowd source the design to death.

When life gives you lemmings, scrum.  (Life is usually going to give you 
lemmings.)

-- rec --

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
"It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what they do, 
and why they might make an issue of how they want to work together with each 
other and their clients."

Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of agile-speak.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Steven A Smith]

Roger -

Bravo!

   /"When life gives you lemmngs, scrum"/

Some of your one-liners are better than the great Yogi's

- Steve
On 3/19/17 11:36 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
I dunno, you think there's a connection between 
diversity/intersectionality and agile design?  They always harp on 
hearing the quiet voice that's telling the important truth. Seems like 
agile's main point is that the clients really want something much 
simpler than they can be talked into, but you have to convince all the 
coders that that is true, or else they'll build, or fail to build, 
something much more complicated than necessary.  So you organize as a 
team of lemmings and crowd source the design to death.


When life gives you lemmings, scrum.  (Life is usually going to give 
you lemmings.)


-- rec --

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Marcus Daniels > wrote:


“It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is,
what they do, and why they might make an issue of how they want to
work together with each other and their clients.”

Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of
agile-speak.

Marcus



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 by Dr. Strangelove





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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Marcus Daniels]

Two groups that start with the premise that the whole (a team) is more than the 
sum of its parts and will FOREVER advocate social collaboration tools and 
behavioral guidelines ad nauseam to make sure that the social but otherwise 
ordinary team members will always be able to delay coherent technical planning, 
or (worse!) edgy debates where any proposition could be shown to be poorly 
motivated or false.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2017 11:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] organizations

I dunno, you think there's a connection between diversity/intersectionality and 
agile design?  They always harp on hearing the quiet voice that's telling the 
important truth.  Seems like agile's main point is that the clients really want 
something much simpler than they can be talked into, but you have to convince 
all the coders that that is true, or else they'll build, or fail to build, 
something much more complicated than necessary.  So you organize as a team of 
lemmings and crowd source the design to death.

When life gives you lemmings, scrum.  (Life is usually going to give you 
lemmings.)

-- rec --

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
“It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what they do, 
and why they might make an issue of how they want to work together with each 
other and their clients.”

Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of agile-speak.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Roger Critchlow]

I dunno, you think there's a connection between diversity/intersectionality
and agile design?  They always harp on hearing the quiet voice that's
telling the important truth.  Seems like agile's main point is that the
clients really want something much simpler than they can be talked into,
but you have to convince all the coders that that is true, or else they'll
build, or fail to build, something much more complicated than necessary.
So you organize as a team of lemmings and crowd source the design to death.


When life gives you lemmings, scrum.  (Life is usually going to give you
lemmings.)

-- rec --

On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> “It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what they
> do, and why they might make an issue of how they want to work together with
> each other and their clients.”
>
>
>
> Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of agile-speak.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] organizations

[Marcus Daniels]

“It's fun, too, to wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what they do, 
and why they might make an issue of how they want to work together with each 
other and their clients.”

Heh. I think a bot generated their pages from a dictionary of agile-speak.

Marcus

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[FRIAM] organizations

[Roger Critchlow]

Twitter brought me a link to the 18F code of conduct this evening, via New
Zealand:

  https://github.com/18F/code-of-conduct/blob/master/code-of-conduct.md

which leads me to wonder about the goals and purposes of organizations and
the ways they challenge members and other organizations.  It's fun, too, to
wander around github figuring out who 18F is, what they do, and why they
might make an issue of how they want to work together with each other and
their clients.

Organizations then can be a continuation of "personhood, a game for two or
more" into "affiliations, the categories we choose to join" as opposed to
the categories people get thrown into like jail cells.

-- rec --

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