Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Marcus Daniels]

Whether it was the native Americans in New Mexico or the Ohlone in California, 
I've always found it a bit strange how some in assimilated cultures long for 
their ancestral identity.  I've never had this for reason below.  Perhaps it 
would be different if I had a different skin color from my parents. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 5:08 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

Yeah, being adopted gives me yet another advantage over you breeder types. ⛧ I 
run into many situations where people talk about (dark) intra- and 
inter-generational patterns in their families. If/when they ask me, I get to 
bail on the whole conversation ... or participate with no skin in the game. I 
can't imagine surrendering that privilege by hunting down my birth parents. 
Yuck. It's my own personal version of the Rawlsian veil. What are the chances 
the situation on the other side of the veil is better than it is on this side? 
Low, low, low.


[⛧] As well as being wise enough *not* to send my DNA to services like Ancestry 
or 23andMe 
<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/03/idaho-student-killings-suspect-dna-public-genealogy-databasehttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/03/idaho-student-killings-suspect-dna-public-genealogy-database>.
 Renee's toast, though, because her sisters did it! If/when she decides to 
murder some frat boys, they'll catch her for sure. Of course, the PI for the 
RCT I was on, and the drug company he worked for, have my biosample(s) buried 
at the back of some fridge somewhere. Can the cops get to it? Let's hope not, 
but prolly yes.


On 1/3/23 16:17, Steve Smith wrote:
> 
> My very limited experience with western medicine (professional and amateur) 
> seems highly biased toward this (LCD).  Like smearing all the colors together 
> from your big box of crayons just gives you mud...
>> [snip]
> 
> There is certainly no end of naive interpretation of statistics in our 
> popular descriptions of just about anything...   unto superstition.  I know 
> many people who very literally get very squirmy when they approach the age 
> that their same-sex parent died... especially if it was some genetically 
> influenced thing, but it could even have been a car-accident?!
> 

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

Yeah, being adopted gives me yet another advantage over you breeder types. ⛧ I 
run into many situations where people talk about (dark) intra- and 
inter-generational patterns in their families. If/when they ask me, I get to 
bail on the whole conversation ... or participate with no skin in the game. I 
can't imagine surrendering that privilege by hunting down my birth parents. 
Yuck. It's my own personal version of the Rawlsian veil. What are the chances 
the situation on the other side of the veil is better than it is on this side? 
Low, low, low.


[⛧] As well as being wise enough *not* to send my DNA to services like Ancestry or 
23andMe 
.
 Renee's toast, though, because her sisters did it! If/when she decides to murder 
some frat boys, they'll catch her for sure. Of course, the PI for the RCT I was on, 
and the drug company he worked for, have my biosample(s) buried at the back of some 
fridge somewhere. Can the cops get to it? Let's hope not, but prolly yes.


On 1/3/23 16:17, Steve Smith wrote:


My very limited experience with western medicine (professional and amateur) 
seems highly biased toward this (LCD).  Like smearing all the colors together 
from your big box of crayons just gives you mud...

[snip]


There is certainly no end of naive interpretation of statistics in our popular 
descriptions of just about anything...   unto superstition.  I know many people 
who very literally get very squirmy when they approach the age that their 
same-sex parent died... especially if it was some genetically influenced thing, 
but it could even have been a car-accident?!



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[David Eric Smith]

That number sounds familiar to me too.  I don’t know if it is right.  There 
seem to be very many nonagenarian movie stars and politicians in the papers 
every day, and I wonder if there really are 50x as many octogenarians at any 
time.  

OTOH, my understanding is that the Gompertz ramp (linear increase of mortality 
rate with age) saturates once you hit about 1/3.  Big question in that field 
(last I checked, which was some years ago) is why it saturates at all, and why 
around that level.  As for other low-parameter-dimension families of 
distributions, there are endless ways to curve-fit one exponential, so you have 
very limited ability to infer causation.  Any features that break the 
self-similarity become precious signals.

> On Jan 3, 2023, at 7:33 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
>   >For people it’s somewhere in the 70-80 ...
> 
> As I approach 80 I'm not happy about this.  I read or heard that a person 
> over 80 has about a 0.3 probability of dying each year.  I calculated, 
> possibly using incorrect assumptions, that that means that the conditional 
> probability of living to 90 given that you've lived to 80 is 0.02.
> 
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:14 PM glen  > wrote:
> Interesting paper. I'll have to read it more closely. But it doesn't strike 
> me that they address *premature* mortality, whatever that is. I can't help 
> but get a Theseus' Ship vibe. Even if the canalizing risks (welding, sky 
> diving, cholesterol, dehydration, etc.) are all hammered down, I'd expect the 
> noise to overwhelm the signal as the focus tightens. Anyway, I'll try to read 
> this over the next few days. Thanks.
> 
> 
> On 1/3/23 12:31, David Eric Smith wrote:
> > Long a favorite topic of mine.
> > 
> > Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with ~1min of 
> > google searching images:
> > https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384 
> > 
> >   > >
> > See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.
> > 
> > But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are unbelievably 
> > universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be shifted by lots of 
> > factors, but the functional form (which takes only a couple of parameters) 
> > is absurdly more robust than one would expect given all that varies.
> > 
> > Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a natural 
> > associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s somewhere in the 
> > 70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 10-year difference 
> > across different world gene pools (Japanese being at the upper end, and 
> > maybe some other group in Central Asia east of the Caucasus; I forget).
> > 
> > A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work, there 
> > seem to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think, childhood 
> > leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made remarkable progress 
> > on many of the former, and very little on many of the latter.  Also (and I 
> > got this from researchers at Einstein college in Yeshiva some years ago, or 
> > from a stack of their papers), if one avoids rather specific risk factors, 
> > like welding or smoking for lung cancers, or dioxin exposures for male 
> > breast cancers or the like, the leading predictor for most of the old-age 
> > diseases is just your age.  So it has (to me) the look of what Holmse’s 
> > Wonderful One-Hoss Shay would be if redone with Poisson statistics, to 
> > become a minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck up got hammered 
> > down (extra resources for any disease that becomes visible to selection) 
> > that now all the nails are at about the same height, and there is some kind 
> > of ambivalence frontier.
> > 
> > My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t 
> > possibly be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of the 
> > old.  But I didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some serious 
> > literature.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Eric
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen  >>   >> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Frank Wimberly]

30% is much better assuming that being 90 is a reasonable goal.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 6:27 PM Edward Angel  wrote:

> You can feel better: 0.7 ** 10 ~= 0.028. That's 40% better, although, it’s
> hard to believe that the 0.3 per year  is constant for 10 years. Or even
> correct.
>
> The charts from real data seem to show the probability of an 80 year old
> making it to 90 is 30%.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Jan 3, 2023, at 5:33 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>   >For people it’s somewhere in the 70-80 ...
>
> As I approach 80 I'm not happy about this.  I read or heard that a person
> over 80 has about a 0.3 probability of dying each year.  I calculated,
> possibly using incorrect assumptions, that that means that the conditional
> probability of living to 90 given that you've lived to 80 is 0.02.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:14 PM glen  wrote:
>
>> Interesting paper. I'll have to read it more closely. But it doesn't
>> strike me that they address *premature* mortality, whatever that is. I
>> can't help but get a Theseus' Ship vibe. Even if the canalizing risks
>> (welding, sky diving, cholesterol, dehydration, etc.) are all hammered
>> down, I'd expect the noise to overwhelm the signal as the focus tightens.
>> Anyway, I'll try to read this over the next few days. Thanks.
>>
>>
>> On 1/3/23 12:31, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> > Long a favorite topic of mine.
>> >
>> > Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with ~1min
>> of google searching images:
>> >
>> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384
>> <
>> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384
>> >
>> > See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.
>> >
>> > But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are
>> unbelievably universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be shifted by
>> lots of factors, but the functional form (which takes only a couple of
>> parameters) is absurdly more robust than one would expect given all that
>> varies.
>> >
>> > Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a
>> natural associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s somewhere
>> in the 70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 10-year
>> difference across different world gene pools (Japanese being at the upper
>> end, and maybe some other group in Central Asia east of the Caucasus; I
>> forget).
>> >
>> > A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work,
>> there seem to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think,
>> childhood leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made remarkable
>> progress on many of the former, and very little on many of the latter.
>> Also (and I got this from researchers at Einstein college in Yeshiva some
>> years ago, or from a stack of their papers), if one avoids rather specific
>> risk factors, like welding or smoking for lung cancers, or dioxin exposures
>> for male breast cancers or the like, the leading predictor for most of the
>> old-age diseases is just your age.  So it has (to me) the look of what
>> Holmse’s Wonderful One-Hoss Shay would be if redone with Poisson
>> statistics, to become a minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck
>> up got hammered down (extra resources for any disease that becomes visible
>> to selection) that now all the nails are at about the same height, and
>> there is some kind of ambivalence frontier.
>> >
>> > My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t
>> possibly be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of the
>> old.  But I didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some serious
>> literature.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Eric
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last
>> test a week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for
>> premature mortality. 8^D
>> >>
>> >> The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our
>> inability to well-define it raises some interesting questions.
>> >>
>> >> • deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of
>> Ramanujan at 32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
>> >> • life expectancy seems like yet another instance of people not
>> understanding statistics
>> >> • quality of life - is the death of a 20 year old born into and likely
>> to live in poverty *as* 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Edward Angel]

You can feel better: 0.7 ** 10 ~= 0.028. That's 40% better, although, it’s hard 
to believe that the 0.3 per year  is constant for 10 years. Or even correct.

The charts from real data seem to show the probability of an 80 year old making 
it to 90 is 30%.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Jan 3, 2023, at 5:33 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
>   >For people it’s somewhere in the 70-80 ...
> 
> As I approach 80 I'm not happy about this.  I read or heard that a person 
> over 80 has about a 0.3 probability of dying each year.  I calculated, 
> possibly using incorrect assumptions, that that means that the conditional 
> probability of living to 90 given that you've lived to 80 is 0.02.
> 
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:14 PM glen  > wrote:
> Interesting paper. I'll have to read it more closely. But it doesn't strike 
> me that they address *premature* mortality, whatever that is. I can't help 
> but get a Theseus' Ship vibe. Even if the canalizing risks (welding, sky 
> diving, cholesterol, dehydration, etc.) are all hammered down, I'd expect the 
> noise to overwhelm the signal as the focus tightens. Anyway, I'll try to read 
> this over the next few days. Thanks.
> 
> 
> On 1/3/23 12:31, David Eric Smith wrote:
> > Long a favorite topic of mine.
> > 
> > Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with ~1min of 
> > google searching images:
> > https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384 
> >  
> >  > >
> > See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.
> > 
> > But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are unbelievably 
> > universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be shifted by lots of 
> > factors, but the functional form (which takes only a couple of parameters) 
> > is absurdly more robust than one would expect given all that varies.
> > 
> > Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a natural 
> > associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s somewhere in the 
> > 70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 10-year difference 
> > across different world gene pools (Japanese being at the upper end, and 
> > maybe some other group in Central Asia east of the Caucasus; I forget).
> > 
> > A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work, there 
> > seem to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think, childhood 
> > leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made remarkable progress 
> > on many of the former, and very little on many of the latter.  Also (and I 
> > got this from researchers at Einstein college in Yeshiva some years ago, or 
> > from a stack of their papers), if one avoids rather specific risk factors, 
> > like welding or smoking for lung cancers, or dioxin exposures for male 
> > breast cancers or the like, the leading predictor for most of the old-age 
> > diseases is just your age.  So it has (to me) the look of what Holmse’s 
> > Wonderful One-Hoss Shay would be if redone with Poisson statistics, to 
> > become a minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck up got hammered 
> > down (extra resources for any disease that becomes visible to selection) 
> > that now all the nails are at about the same height, and there is some kind 
> > of ambivalence frontier.
> > 
> > My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t 
> > possibly be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of the 
> > old.  But I didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some serious 
> > literature.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Eric
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen  >>   >> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> ">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last test 
> >> a week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for premature 
> >> mortality. 8^D
> >>
> >> The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our inability 
> >> to well-define it raises some interesting questions.
> >>
> >> • deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of Ramanujan 
> >> at 32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
> >> • life expectancy seems like 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Frank Wimberly]

  >For people it’s somewhere in the 70-80 ...

As I approach 80 I'm not happy about this.  I read or heard that a person
over 80 has about a 0.3 probability of dying each year.  I calculated,
possibly using incorrect assumptions, that that means that the conditional
probability of living to 90 given that you've lived to 80 is 0.02.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023, 5:14 PM glen  wrote:

> Interesting paper. I'll have to read it more closely. But it doesn't
> strike me that they address *premature* mortality, whatever that is. I
> can't help but get a Theseus' Ship vibe. Even if the canalizing risks
> (welding, sky diving, cholesterol, dehydration, etc.) are all hammered
> down, I'd expect the noise to overwhelm the signal as the focus tightens.
> Anyway, I'll try to read this over the next few days. Thanks.
>
>
> On 1/3/23 12:31, David Eric Smith wrote:
> > Long a favorite topic of mine.
> >
> > Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with ~1min
> of google searching images:
> >
> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384
>  >
> > See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.
> >
> > But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are
> unbelievably universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be shifted by
> lots of factors, but the functional form (which takes only a couple of
> parameters) is absurdly more robust than one would expect given all that
> varies.
> >
> > Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a
> natural associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s somewhere
> in the 70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 10-year
> difference across different world gene pools (Japanese being at the upper
> end, and maybe some other group in Central Asia east of the Caucasus; I
> forget).
> >
> > A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work, there
> seem to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think, childhood
> leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made remarkable progress
> on many of the former, and very little on many of the latter.  Also (and I
> got this from researchers at Einstein college in Yeshiva some years ago, or
> from a stack of their papers), if one avoids rather specific risk factors,
> like welding or smoking for lung cancers, or dioxin exposures for male
> breast cancers or the like, the leading predictor for most of the old-age
> diseases is just your age.  So it has (to me) the look of what Holmse’s
> Wonderful One-Hoss Shay would be if redone with Poisson statistics, to
> become a minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck up got hammered
> down (extra resources for any disease that becomes visible to selection)
> that now all the nails are at about the same height, and there is some kind
> of ambivalence frontier.
> >
> > My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t
> possibly be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of the
> old.  But I didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some serious
> literature.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> ">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last
> test a week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for
> premature mortality. 8^D
> >>
> >> The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our
> inability to well-define it raises some interesting questions.
> >>
> >> • deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of
> Ramanujan at 32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
> >> • life expectancy seems like yet another instance of people not
> understanding statistics
> >> • quality of life - is the death of a 20 year old born into and likely
> to live in poverty *as* premature as the death of a 20 year old born with a
> silver spoon?
> >> • natural selection - is it premature for a 35 year old who's bred,
> say, 10 children to die?
> >>  · or is it premature for them to die before their children have
> children? I.e. is being a grandparent a necessary element of a breeder's
> life?
> >> • consequentialism - had Hitler dyed at age 35, would that have been
> premature?
> >>
> >> I know this seems like a tangent upon tangents. But it's not. It's
> nonsense to relate serum Na to premature mortality because premature
> mortality is nonsense. Prevalence of chronic disease seems, to me, a little
> more well-formed ... but not by much. Biological age just seems like
> pseudoscience to me, the flip side of Vampirism. I'd welcome an education,
> though.
> >>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Steve Smith]

It's not the accumulation of damage and the fault/disease risk 
associated with such damage that seems like pseudoscience. That's 
actual science. But it starts to feel pseudo- when used to refine from 
a big data population size to individual humans (or demographics). The 
idea you can hop down to the lab, get the panel taken, and get a low 
enough variance estimate of your biological age is pseudoscience.

Good clarification...  I *was* missing your point...  as I expected I was!


Take a look at Panel A of Figure 3 here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5940111/

Precision medicine is a grand challenge in most medical domains. We 
haven't achieved it anywhere as far as I can tell. Eric's right, 
though, that *where* a causal mechanism can be identified (e.g. in 
developmental diseases), it can be targeted. But when you increase the 
number of markers and nonlinear effects arise, you end up relying on 
comparisons to an over-simplified aggregator (mean or median or 
whatever). And any therapy becomes treatment to the lowest common 
denominator.
My very limited experience with western medicine (professional and 
amateur) seems highly biased toward this (LCD).  Like smearing all the 
colors together from your big box of crayons just gives you mud...


Maybe pseudoscience is too strong a word... since my focus is on the 
word "premature" as opposed to statistical estimates of mortality, 
maybe I can simply call it hyperbole? I guess it's akin to all the 
hype around LLMs.


There is certainly no end of naive interpretation of statistics in our 
popular descriptions of just about anything...   unto superstition.  I 
know many people who very literally get very squirmy when they approach 
the age that their same-sex parent died... especially if it was some 
genetically influenced thing, but it could even have been a car-accident?!


I think watching the 'Publicans thrash on the House Floor over 
McCarthy-or-not/bust today lowered my BP by at least 10 points... 
nothing does my heart more good than watching the obstructors get in one 
another's way for a change...   especially watching Boebert's and 
Greene's rants and Jordan's and Gaetz's and Biggs', and McCarthy's 
smarmy attempts to normalize what is going on... while the usually 
"litter-of-puppies" styled Dems all lined up with a smile behind Jeffries...


Soon enough it will get old though...



On 1/3/23 12:08, Steve Smith wrote:
What part of telomeric erosion/degradation/consumption and/or 
accumulated genetic damage via toxins and ionizing radiation (over a 
lifetime)seems like pseudoscience?  I'm probably missing your point.


On 1/3/23 11:01 AM, glen wrote:
Biological age just seems like pseudoscience to me, the flip side of 
Vampirism. I'd welcome an education, though.


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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

Interesting paper. I'll have to read it more closely. But it doesn't strike me 
that they address *premature* mortality, whatever that is. I can't help but get 
a Theseus' Ship vibe. Even if the canalizing risks (welding, sky diving, 
cholesterol, dehydration, etc.) are all hammered down, I'd expect the noise to 
overwhelm the signal as the focus tightens. Anyway, I'll try to read this over 
the next few days. Thanks.


On 1/3/23 12:31, David Eric Smith wrote:

Long a favorite topic of mine.

Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with ~1min of 
google searching images:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384 

See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.

But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are unbelievably 
universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be shifted by lots of factors, 
but the functional form (which takes only a couple of parameters) is absurdly 
more robust than one would expect given all that varies.

Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a natural 
associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s somewhere in the 
70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 10-year difference across 
different world gene pools (Japanese being at the upper end, and maybe some 
other group in Central Asia east of the Caucasus; I forget).

A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work, there seem 
to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think, childhood 
leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made remarkable progress on 
many of the former, and very little on many of the latter.  Also (and I got 
this from researchers at Einstein college in Yeshiva some years ago, or from a 
stack of their papers), if one avoids rather specific risk factors, like 
welding or smoking for lung cancers, or dioxin exposures for male breast 
cancers or the like, the leading predictor for most of the old-age diseases is 
just your age.  So it has (to me) the look of what Holmse’s Wonderful One-Hoss 
Shay would be if redone with Poisson statistics, to become a 
minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck up got hammered down (extra 
resources for any disease that becomes visible to selection) that now all the 
nails are at about the same height, and there is some kind of ambivalence 
frontier.

My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t possibly 
be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of the old.  But I 
didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some serious literature.

Thanks,

Eric




On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last test a 
week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for premature mortality. 8^D

The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our inability to 
well-define it raises some interesting questions.

• deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of Ramanujan at 
32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
• life expectancy seems like yet another instance of people not understanding 
statistics
• quality of life - is the death of a 20 year old born into and likely to live 
in poverty *as* premature as the death of a 20 year old born with a silver 
spoon?
• natural selection - is it premature for a 35 year old who's bred, say, 10 
children to die?
 · or is it premature for them to die before their children have children? I.e. 
is being a grandparent a necessary element of a breeder's life?
• consequentialism - had Hitler dyed at age 35, would that have been premature?

I know this seems like a tangent upon tangents. But it's not. It's nonsense to 
relate serum Na to premature mortality because premature mortality is nonsense. 
Prevalence of chronic disease seems, to me, a little more well-formed ... but 
not by much. Biological age just seems like pseudoscience to me, the flip side 
of Vampirism. I'd welcome an education, though.



--
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

It's not the accumulation of damage and the fault/disease risk associated with 
such damage that seems like pseudoscience. That's actual science. But it starts 
to feel pseudo- when used to refine from a big data population size to 
individual humans (or demographics). The idea you can hop down to the lab, get 
the panel taken, and get a low enough variance estimate of your biological age 
is pseudoscience.

Take a look at Panel A of Figure 3 here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5940111/

Precision medicine is a grand challenge in most medical domains. We haven't 
achieved it anywhere as far as I can tell. Eric's right, though, that *where* a 
causal mechanism can be identified (e.g. in developmental diseases), it can be 
targeted. But when you increase the number of markers and nonlinear effects 
arise, you end up relying on comparisons to an over-simplified aggregator (mean 
or median or whatever). And any therapy becomes treatment to the lowest common 
denominator.

Maybe pseudoscience is too strong a word... since my focus is on the word 
"premature" as opposed to statistical estimates of mortality, maybe I can 
simply call it hyperbole? I guess it's akin to all the hype around LLMs.

On 1/3/23 12:08, Steve Smith wrote:

What part of telomeric erosion/degradation/consumption and/or accumulated 
genetic damage via toxins and ionizing radiation (over a lifetime)seems like 
pseudoscience?  I'm probably missing your point.

On 1/3/23 11:01 AM, glen wrote:

Biological age just seems like pseudoscience to me, the flip side of Vampirism. 
I'd welcome an education, though.

--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Steve Smith]

Eric -

I like your introduction of "some kind of Ambivalence Frontier"... I 
think this also expresses itself in the "close races" we have in 
politics these days... a vague correlate to what happens with 
high-scoring competitive games (like basketball) which often end up in 
close calls with a few last-minute scores ultimately declaring the winner?


- Steve

On 1/3/23 1:31 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:

Long a favorite topic of mine.

Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with 
~1min of google searching images:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384
See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.

But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are 
unbelievably universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be 
shifted by lots of factors, but the functional form (which takes only 
a couple of parameters) is absurdly more robust than one would expect 
given all that varies.


Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a 
natural associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s 
somewhere in the 70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 
10-year difference across different world gene pools (Japanese being 
at the upper end, and maybe some other group in Central Asia east of 
the Caucasus; I forget).


A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work, 
there seem to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think, 
childhood leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made 
remarkable progress on many of the former, and very little on many of 
the latter.  Also (and I got this from researchers at Einstein college 
in Yeshiva some years ago, or from a stack of their papers), if one 
avoids rather specific risk factors, like welding or smoking for lung 
cancers, or dioxin exposures for male breast cancers or the like, the 
leading predictor for most of the old-age diseases is just your age. 
 So it has (to me) the look of what Holmse’s Wonderful One-Hoss Shay 
would be if redone with Poisson statistics, to become a 
minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck up got hammered down 
(extra resources for any disease that becomes visible to selection) 
that now all the nails are at about the same height, and there is some 
kind of ambivalence frontier.


My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t 
possibly be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of 
the old.  But I didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some 
serious literature.


Thanks,

Eric




On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen  wrote:

">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last 
test a week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for 
premature mortality. 8^D


The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our 
inability to well-define it raises some interesting questions.


• deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of 
Ramanujan at 32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
• life expectancy seems like yet another instance of people not 
understanding statistics
• quality of life - is the death of a 20 year old born into and 
likely to live in poverty *as* premature as the death of a 20 year 
old born with a silver spoon?
• natural selection - is it premature for a 35 year old who's bred, 
say, 10 children to die?
 · or is it premature for them to die before their children have 
children? I.e. is being a grandparent a necessary element of a 
breeder's life?
• consequentialism - had Hitler dyed at age 35, would that have been 
premature?


I know this seems like a tangent upon tangents. But it's not. It's 
nonsense to relate serum Na to premature mortality because premature 
mortality is nonsense. Prevalence of chronic disease seems, to me, a 
little more well-formed ... but not by much. Biological age just 
seems like pseudoscience to me, the flip side of Vampirism. I'd 
welcome an education, though.


On 1/2/23 13:34, Roger Critchlow wrote:
There was a hacker news item this morning about maintaining 
hydration and chronic illness:
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thelancet.com%2fjournals%2febiom%2farticle%2fPIIS2352-3964=E,1,faHDDOmfSmBCowvyxqbh2EUz38-Hun0lWmP7p9abh_tufHZOPXeJwvh0zeVEv_pEJaprXTWcos80ECDWoak-cqMSeiutR3SgT9gK0pLzL_sP_rE,=1(22)00586-2/fulltext 
 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[David Eric Smith]

Long a favorite topic of mine.

Let me send you a link; almost-surely not the best, but done with ~1min of 
google searching images:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233384 

See the 5th figure for actual data, rather than models.  

But my understanding is that Gompertz mortality statistics are unbelievably 
universal across metazoans.  The parameters can be shifted by lots of factors, 
but the functional form (which takes only a couple of parameters) is absurdly 
more robust than one would expect given all that varies.

Anyway, to the extent that there is Gompertz mortality, there is a natural 
associated age for age-associated-death.  For people it’s somewhere in the 
70-80 range, and I think there can be as much as a 10-year difference across 
different world gene pools (Japanese being at the upper end, and maybe some 
other group in Central Asia east of the Caucasus; I forget).

A thing I remember being told by a guy who does this kind of work, there seem 
to be two modes between development-linked diseases (think, childhood 
leukemias), and age-associated diseases.  We have made remarkable progress on 
many of the former, and very little on many of the latter.  Also (and I got 
this from researchers at Einstein college in Yeshiva some years ago, or from a 
stack of their papers), if one avoids rather specific risk factors, like 
welding or smoking for lung cancers, or dioxin exposures for male breast 
cancers or the like, the leading predictor for most of the old-age diseases is 
just your age.  So it has (to me) the look of what Holmse’s Wonderful One-Hoss 
Shay would be if redone with Poisson statistics, to become a 
minimum-information process.  The nail that stuck up got hammered down (extra 
resources for any disease that becomes visible to selection) that now all the 
nails are at about the same height, and there is some kind of ambivalence 
frontier.

My own anecdotal experience suggests that my previous paragraphs can’t possibly 
be right, since there clearly are common and rare diseases of the old.  But I 
didn’t make this stuff up, and got it from some serious literature.

Thanks, 

Eric



> On Jan 3, 2023, at 1:01 PM, glen  wrote:
> 
> ">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last test a 
> week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for premature 
> mortality. 8^D
> 
> The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our inability to 
> well-define it raises some interesting questions.
> 
> • deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of Ramanujan at 
> 32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
> • life expectancy seems like yet another instance of people not understanding 
> statistics
> • quality of life - is the death of a 20 year old born into and likely to 
> live in poverty *as* premature as the death of a 20 year old born with a 
> silver spoon?
> • natural selection - is it premature for a 35 year old who's bred, say, 10 
> children to die?
>  · or is it premature for them to die before their children have children? 
> I.e. is being a grandparent a necessary element of a breeder's life?
> • consequentialism - had Hitler dyed at age 35, would that have been 
> premature?
> 
> I know this seems like a tangent upon tangents. But it's not. It's nonsense 
> to relate serum Na to premature mortality because premature mortality is 
> nonsense. Prevalence of chronic disease seems, to me, a little more 
> well-formed ... but not by much. Biological age just seems like pseudoscience 
> to me, the flip side of Vampirism. I'd welcome an education, though.
> 
> On 1/2/23 13:34, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>> There was a hacker news item this morning about maintaining hydration and 
>> chronic illness:
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.thelancet.com%2fjournals%2febiom%2farticle%2fPIIS2352-3964=E,1,faHDDOmfSmBCowvyxqbh2EUz38-Hun0lWmP7p9abh_tufHZOPXeJwvh0zeVEv_pEJaprXTWcos80ECDWoak-cqMSeiutR3SgT9gK0pLzL_sP_rE,=1(22)00586-2/fulltext
>>  
>> 
>> those who exceeded 142 mmol/l of serum sodium in middle age got sicker more 
>> often later in life.
>> It's the first measurement on my comprehensive metabolic panels.
>> It would be really funny if there actually was "One simple trick to staying 
>> healthy!", but it was only discovered after we had conditioned ourselves 
>> into never reading any article with such a title.
>> -- rec --
>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 2:04 PM glen > > wrote:
>>I think a mobility checkup would be more useful than blood tests. See if 
>> you can stand on one foot for 10 seconds. Spin you 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Steve Smith]

I recently watched a documentary on the animals living in Chernobyl, 
environs and nearby evacuated villages.   The overall theme was that 
while there was lots of evidence of genetic damage and mutation in 
individuals, they were still "healthy populations" of many (all?) 
species finding new balances among themselves... the domesticated dogs 
living near-feral (most apparently can still be seduced into human 
contact with food) for example had normalized to a new "mongrel-breed"  
and to your point, their average lifespan is 2-3 years, which is 
apparently not a long enough lifespan for any of the cellular-cancer 
level mutations to yield death-by-cancer-tumor.


(Some of) the dogs do develop cancer and tumors but die of "natural 
causes" like predation and starvation and exposure due to the harsh/wild 
conditions.   Other more-obvious subjects of predation apparently simply 
become easier prey when they are suffering cancer/tumors.  Radiation 
damage/mutation/cancer just becomes a bias toward earlier death by 
predation.  The bottom line in this case seems to be that "premature 
mortality", etc. is a relative concept and entirely dependent on context 
and that in fact, in some sense, a (still) elevated radionuclide 
concentration does not mean "nuclear wasteland"... individual organisms 
suffer (relative to a much lower concentration) but populations will 
survive and in some odd sense thrive, and new ecological balances be found.


Apparently the largest deviation of individual species is a "river worm" 
which apparently shifted from asexual to sexual reproduction... 
presumably for the increased attendant (healthy?) mutation rates to 
balance the radiation-induced mutation (whatever that means, I can only 
guess as a total layman).  I'm assuming the sexual reproductive mode was 
already entirely present, just not dominant?


I deleted the whole backstory on my own entry into the western medical 
system (no drama, just giving over to getting old and wanting to keep 
doing it a while longer) but my doc (40-something woman born/raised in 
the Pojo valley who hung our her shingle as a "subscription" doc, no 
insurance billed/accepted, etc) looks at her computer everytime we meet 
(when she gets back the last round of labs and takes my word for my BP, 
etc)  and tells me the % likelihood of my having a stroke or heart 
attack in the next 10 (and 15 and 20) years, based on those numbers.    
My grandmothers both died well before I was born of cancers that were 
not really/barely treatable in those days (~1950) in their 50s.  My 
grandfathers made it into their late 70s, when the US life expectancy 
was something like 72/70 for women/men.   My parents made it into their 
late 80s, early 90s when the expectancy (I think) had jumped up into the 
80s.   What does this really mean to anyone *not* an actuary or a 
nursing home administrator or a home-health aide company?   My parents 
did not outlive their (modest but well-planned) savings, but came 
close...   it worried my mom some when she could least afford that kind 
of worry, my sister and I did our best to mitigate those worries.  In 
another era she would have been living in one of our homes and died in 
her own bed there...  instead, assisted-living unto hospice care... bleh!


This also begs the questions raised during Vietnam (and since) of 
"excess deaths" the Hawks insisted that, for example, out of the 
~55,000 young US soldiers who died by war-violence in Vietnam, some 
number (I'll make up 10% or 5500) would have died in car-accidents, 
street-brawls, hunting-accidents, domestic-violence, appendecitis, or a 
runaway acne infection would have died anyway, so they only had to be 
responsible for the 50,000 that they threw in front of (shot out of?) 
cannons... and of course, the Defoliant and PTSD deaths that came after 
the conflict was over (or possibly happened during the conflict, but 
back home rather than on the battlefield) are definitely not to be 
counted on their tally sheet.  Of course, the Doves wanted to count all 
of those multiple times... (every cancer or neurological disorder blamed 
on Agent Orange and every suicide or violent death blamed on Wartime PTSD).


I think I heard the same arguments arise around COVID (excess) 
mortality.   Based on my above diatribe, I'm pretty much ambivalent... I 
can't say I admire either form of agenda-driven interpretation... maybe 
all interpretation is intrinsically agenda-driven (model fitting)?


Mary has a good aphorism which I find to apply quite acutely and broadly 
in it's trite simplicity:  "Every life is complete"... It came from a 
friend whose grandchild died at-birth.  Talk about edge cases!  I 
reflected on this quite a bit when Thich Nhat Hahn died last year...   
and his aphorism "A Cloud Never Dies"...


What part of telomeric erosion/degradation/consumption and/or 
accumulated genetic damage via toxins and ionizing radiation (over a 
lifetime)seems like pseudoscience?  I'm 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

">144 mmol/l with 21% elevated risk of premature mortality". My last test a 
week ago showed 144! Whew! I guess I have a normal risk for premature mortality. 8^D

The concept of "premature death" is flat out ridiculous. But our inability to 
well-define it raises some interesting questions.

• deprivation (by the dead, by the rest of us) - is the death of Ramanujan at 
32 *more* premature than the death of some rando at 32?
• life expectancy seems like yet another instance of people not understanding 
statistics
• quality of life - is the death of a 20 year old born into and likely to live 
in poverty *as* premature as the death of a 20 year old born with a silver 
spoon?
• natural selection - is it premature for a 35 year old who's bred, say, 10 
children to die?
  · or is it premature for them to die before their children have children? 
I.e. is being a grandparent a necessary element of a breeder's life?
• consequentialism - had Hitler dyed at age 35, would that have been premature?

I know this seems like a tangent upon tangents. But it's not. It's nonsense to 
relate serum Na to premature mortality because premature mortality is nonsense. 
Prevalence of chronic disease seems, to me, a little more well-formed ... but 
not by much. Biological age just seems like pseudoscience to me, the flip side 
of Vampirism. I'd welcome an education, though.

On 1/2/23 13:34, Roger Critchlow wrote:

There was a hacker news item this morning about maintaining hydration and 
chronic illness:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(22)00586-2/fulltext 


those who exceeded 142 mmol/l of serum sodium in middle age got sicker more 
often later in life.

It's the first measurement on my comprehensive metabolic panels.

It would be really funny if there actually was "One simple trick to staying 
healthy!", but it was only discovered after we had conditioned ourselves into never 
reading any article with such a title.

-- rec --

On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 2:04 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I think a mobility checkup would be more useful than blood tests. See if 
you can stand on one foot for 10 seconds. Spin you around and measure eye 
wobble. Measure joint angles in a sit-to-stand test. Etc. Strength and reflex 
tests would also be useful. I *suppose* cognitive testing trends would be 
useful. I'd love to see, eg how my performance varies on something like a 
memory test or some logic puzzles. With the covid loss of smell and taste 
thing, it would even be cool to have a battery of sensory stimuli of some kind. 
If the personality tests had any credibility, they'd be interesting to track 
over time as well. Would you learn anything? IDK. But it would be more 
interesting than the typical test results.

On 1/2/23 12:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:
 > The last time I went in for a wellness check, the doctor seemed annoyed 
that I was there.   I left, humiliated.
 >
 > But it has been a while, and I am wondering what it would take to 
actually learn something from a checkup.  Is there some standard package of broad 
blood tests and/or MRIs that would be a clue I was becoming gravely ill?  I was 
just shopping for new insurance and was excited to learn all the things I can 
prepare for (Aflac's various products).   What would I even ask for?
 >
 > A few years ago, I had a car accident on the snow in Santa Fe and had to 
have quite a bit of work done on my car.   I have to say billing the insurance for 
that was very satisfying.  I had been paying all these years and had nothing to 
show for it.   It is especially true for my medical coverage.
 >
 > To me going to the doctor is just an opportunity to get COVID-19 in the 
waiting room.  How can I get more from this experience?



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Frank Wimberly]

I got the flu about 10 days ago.  I contacted my PCP by email and he did
the diagnosis based on a list of symptoms I told him about.  I complained
that I had no appetite.  He said, "You don't need to eat, you need to
drink."  Even after all this time I still don't feel 100 percent.  I lost 6
or 7 pounds.  Want to lose weight?  Get sick.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 2:35 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> There was a hacker news item this morning about maintaining hydration and
> chronic illness:
>
>
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(22)00586-2/fulltext
>
> those who exceeded 142 mmol/l of serum sodium in middle age got sicker
> more often later in life.
>
> It's the first measurement on my comprehensive metabolic panels.
>
> It would be really funny if there actually was "One simple trick to
> staying healthy!", but it was only discovered after we had conditioned
> ourselves into never reading any article with such a title.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 2:04 PM glen  wrote:
>
>> I think a mobility checkup would be more useful than blood tests. See if
>> you can stand on one foot for 10 seconds. Spin you around and measure eye
>> wobble. Measure joint angles in a sit-to-stand test. Etc. Strength and
>> reflex tests would also be useful. I *suppose* cognitive testing trends
>> would be useful. I'd love to see, eg how my performance varies on something
>> like a memory test or some logic puzzles. With the covid loss of smell and
>> taste thing, it would even be cool to have a battery of sensory stimuli of
>> some kind. If the personality tests had any credibility, they'd be
>> interesting to track over time as well. Would you learn anything? IDK. But
>> it would be more interesting than the typical test results.
>>
>> On 1/2/23 12:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > The last time I went in for a wellness check, the doctor seemed annoyed
>> that I was there.   I left, humiliated.
>> >
>> > But it has been a while, and I am wondering what it would take to
>> actually learn something from a checkup.  Is there some standard package of
>> broad blood tests and/or MRIs that would be a clue I was becoming gravely
>> ill?  I was just shopping for new insurance and was excited to learn all
>> the things I can prepare for (Aflac's various products).   What would I
>> even ask for?
>> >
>> > A few years ago, I had a car accident on the snow in Santa Fe and had
>> to have quite a bit of work done on my car.   I have to say billing the
>> insurance for that was very satisfying.  I had been paying all these years
>> and had nothing to show for it.   It is especially true for my medical
>> coverage.
>> >
>> > To me going to the doctor is just an opportunity to get COVID-19 in the
>> waiting room.  How can I get more from this experience?
>>
>> --
>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>
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-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Roger Critchlow]

There was a hacker news item this morning about maintaining hydration and
chronic illness:


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(22)00586-2/fulltext

those who exceeded 142 mmol/l of serum sodium in middle age got sicker more
often later in life.

It's the first measurement on my comprehensive metabolic panels.

It would be really funny if there actually was "One simple trick to staying
healthy!", but it was only discovered after we had conditioned ourselves
into never reading any article with such a title.

-- rec --

On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 2:04 PM glen  wrote:

> I think a mobility checkup would be more useful than blood tests. See if
> you can stand on one foot for 10 seconds. Spin you around and measure eye
> wobble. Measure joint angles in a sit-to-stand test. Etc. Strength and
> reflex tests would also be useful. I *suppose* cognitive testing trends
> would be useful. I'd love to see, eg how my performance varies on something
> like a memory test or some logic puzzles. With the covid loss of smell and
> taste thing, it would even be cool to have a battery of sensory stimuli of
> some kind. If the personality tests had any credibility, they'd be
> interesting to track over time as well. Would you learn anything? IDK. But
> it would be more interesting than the typical test results.
>
> On 1/2/23 12:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > The last time I went in for a wellness check, the doctor seemed annoyed
> that I was there.   I left, humiliated.
> >
> > But it has been a while, and I am wondering what it would take to
> actually learn something from a checkup.  Is there some standard package of
> broad blood tests and/or MRIs that would be a clue I was becoming gravely
> ill?  I was just shopping for new insurance and was excited to learn all
> the things I can prepare for (Aflac's various products).   What would I
> even ask for?
> >
> > A few years ago, I had a car accident on the snow in Santa Fe and had to
> have quite a bit of work done on my car.   I have to say billing the
> insurance for that was very satisfying.  I had been paying all these years
> and had nothing to show for it.   It is especially true for my medical
> coverage.
> >
> > To me going to the doctor is just an opportunity to get COVID-19 in the
> waiting room.  How can I get more from this experience?
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

I think a mobility checkup would be more useful than blood tests. See if you 
can stand on one foot for 10 seconds. Spin you around and measure eye wobble. 
Measure joint angles in a sit-to-stand test. Etc. Strength and reflex tests 
would also be useful. I *suppose* cognitive testing trends would be useful. I'd 
love to see, eg how my performance varies on something like a memory test or 
some logic puzzles. With the covid loss of smell and taste thing, it would even 
be cool to have a battery of sensory stimuli of some kind. If the personality 
tests had any credibility, they'd be interesting to track over time as well. 
Would you learn anything? IDK. But it would be more interesting than the 
typical test results.

On 1/2/23 12:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:

The last time I went in for a wellness check, the doctor seemed annoyed that I 
was there.   I left, humiliated.

But it has been a while, and I am wondering what it would take to actually 
learn something from a checkup.  Is there some standard package of broad blood 
tests and/or MRIs that would be a clue I was becoming gravely ill?  I was just 
shopping for new insurance and was excited to learn all the things I can 
prepare for (Aflac's various products).   What would I even ask for?

A few years ago, I had a car accident on the snow in Santa Fe and had to have 
quite a bit of work done on my car.   I have to say billing the insurance for 
that was very satisfying.  I had been paying all these years and had nothing to 
show for it.   It is especially true for my medical coverage.

To me going to the doctor is just an opportunity to get COVID-19 in the waiting 
room.  How can I get more from this experience?


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Marcus Daniels]

The last time I went in for a wellness check, the doctor seemed annoyed that I 
was there.   I left, humiliated.

But it has been a while, and I am wondering what it would take to actually 
learn something from a checkup.  Is there some standard package of broad blood 
tests and/or MRIs that would be a clue I was becoming gravely ill?  I was just 
shopping for new insurance and was excited to learn all the things I can 
prepare for (Aflac's various products).   What would I even ask for?

A few years ago, I had a car accident on the snow in Santa Fe and had to have 
quite a bit of work done on my car.   I have to say billing the insurance for 
that was very satisfying.  I had been paying all these years and had nothing to 
show for it.   It is especially true for my medical coverage.

To me going to the doctor is just an opportunity to get COVID-19 in the waiting 
room.  How can I get more from this experience?

Marcus



From: Friam  on behalf of glen 
Sent: Monday, January 2, 2023 9:48 AM
To: friam@redfish.com 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

I've mostly been neutral about "the holidays". But as I age and my productivity 
tanks, I look upon all the little "reports" we get from friends and family with 
increasing sadness. It used to simply feel odd that "The So-and-so Family" year 
end report talked about how little Bobby has taken his amateur anime to new 
heights or whatever. But now it feels less odd, more normal ... and more 
digusting somehow. I guess it's a bit like the difference between the haughty 
_curriculum vitae_ and the more pedestrian, reflective, _résumé_.

I went in for a "wellness check" with my GP group the other day. Don't ask me 
what they mean by "wellness check". I don't know. But because I don't really 
care which GP of the group sees me, this was a new one. She asked me that bane 
of the cocktail party question "Tell me about yourself." WTF?!? I *should* have 
said something like "I want to be an apocalyptic nomad and you breeder/settler 
types annoy the hell out of me." (She's pregnant with a 1st kid at home.) I 
might have, had we been at a cocktail party. Instead I just hemmed and hawed 
and asked her what she wanted to know, specifically. [sigh] It ended the 
typical way. You drink too much. You're too fat. Your cholesterol's too high. 
Yaddayaddayadda. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I think the problem is I haven't been to a job interview in a while. Maybe 
that's what I should do this year ... try to line up a few job interviews so 
I'm forced to practice my narrative self elevator pitch.

Happy New Year, y'all.


On 12/30/22 16:36, Steve Smith wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12/30/22 1:32 PM, glen wrote:
>> Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have 
>> something to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem 
>> contrarian). I feel like the closing on whim or choosing hours that may be 
>> inconvenient for a population is how we *should* do business. There's 
>> nothing more inhuman/inhumane than, say, shopping at Safeway at 2am because 
>> you *know* a multinational corporation is trying to squeeze that last blood 
>> from the market (and its employees).
>>
>> Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self ... e.g. 
>> tracking your footsteps to make sure you get them all in for the day ... or 
>> counting calories ... or Amazon-style, Taylorist "quantified self". 
>> *In*convenience is life. Attempts to avoid it are akin to suicide. And 
>> inconvenience is also pro-social. There's nothing more inconvenient than 
>> providing social support for a fellow human, sick puppy, or diseased 
>> ecosystem.
>>
>> So, when I see a "gone fishing" sign on a local business, I get a bit of a 
>> dopamine kick. Good for you, dude.
>
> It might also be worth noting that this "renormalization" leaves room for 
> excellence...  surely there will be *some* small businesses and individuals 
> who will excel by striving to expand or refine their "value proposition"...
>
> I can see silver linings throughout but I  think there will be "ringing" in 
> many dimensions. As for me, I am happy with my new "lowered expectations" and 
> even, as you suggest, can applaud a "gone fishing" sign...
>
> My own interests in optimization tend toward expanding circles of context... 
> in my youth (at least into my 30s) the circle was rarely much larger than my 
> self, my nuclear family, my neighborhood, my workplace. Nowadays it has 
> become dizzyingly large and too often abstract... probably to the point of 
> absurdity and ineffectuality.
>
>   It was safer and perhaps saner when I limited my optimization ideations to 
> 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

Ha! Yes, anime is a good thing. But the difference between drawing as a hobby and feeling the need 
(or parents feeling the need) to "sell" the drawings is something else. (By 
"sell", I don't mean for money.) Re: health in context - Yes, and I feel a bit bad 
ranting about this young successful woman not only carrying a baby and having become a MD, but also 
for taking on the GP job as a MD. GP's are (mostly) heroes. Specialists are opportunists and should 
be shunned for the most part.

What torques me is this "optimized self" thing ... be all you can be. If I 
could only lose, say, 20 lbs, work out every day, reduce my drinking to 1 standard per 
day, etc. maybe my hair would grow back! ... or I'd live till I'm 400 years old ... or 
something. What's always missing is the Ends. To what End should I do all this 
optimizing? Surely it's not quality of life. Because if it really were quality of life, 
you're right, we'd have a UBI and I'd be able to relax in a hammock and take massive 
doses of LSD to explore the boundaries of the epistemic universe.

No, I conspiratorially suspect the End is "so you'll be a more efficient and 
effective wage slave". Work 60 hour weeks for a 40-hour based salary. Buy lots of 
shit on Black Friday or Small Business Saturday so those rent-seeking passive investors 
can fly, yet again, to Portugal for vacation. *That's* why we need you to stay healthy. 
And if you're really really lucky, you, too, can end your life as a rent-seeking 
recreational climate destroyer! Wouldn't that be fantastic? Of course, it's more likely 
that you'll do everything we tell you and *still* end up in medically-induced bankruptcy 
or dumpster diving for your lunch or dead from an aneurysm at mile 9 of your next 
marathon. C'est la vie, sucker.

On 1/2/23 08:42, Gillian Densmore wrote:

Hey! anime is a good thing. Or at least that's what I tell myself with guilty 
pleasure anime like HighSchool DXD. :P
now back to you glen and your rant. So what you're saying is: what the actual 
[redacted]?  It's down to lipservices to fix the issue of people going postal 
or snapping in some other awful way. Sure it'd be good for them to take a look 
how some non-trivial amount of people are just hardly putting food on the 
table. And be all like: we can either fund that stupid wall or do a universal 
base income of so much a week for everyone. I think the point of the opening 
question being open is in this odd thing normals call: health in context. or 
what I call small talk while the dr. does paper work . Some nothing burger 
thing to fill dead time. And believe me I'm not great about bsing about myself 
either so you have my comiserations.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 10:50 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I've mostly been neutral about "the holidays". But as I age and my productivity tanks, I look 
upon all the little "reports" we get from friends and family with increasing sadness. It used to 
simply feel odd that "The So-and-so Family" year end report talked about how little Bobby has taken 
his amateur anime to new heights or whatever. But now it feels less odd, more normal ... and more digusting 
somehow. I guess it's a bit like the difference between the haughty _curriculum vitae_ and the more 
pedestrian, reflective, _résumé_.

I went in for a "wellness check" with my GP group the other day. Don't ask me what they mean by 
"wellness check". I don't know. But because I don't really care which GP of the group sees me, this was a new 
one. She asked me that bane of the cocktail party question "Tell me about yourself." WTF?!? I *should* have 
said something like "I want to be an apocalyptic nomad and you breeder/settler types annoy the hell out of 
me." (She's pregnant with a 1st kid at home.) I might have, had we been at a cocktail party. Instead I just hemmed 
and hawed and asked her what she wanted to know, specifically. [sigh] It ended the typical way. You drink too much. 
You're too fat. Your cholesterol's too high. Yaddayaddayadda. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I think the problem is I haven't been to a job interview in a while. Maybe 
that's what I should do this year ... try to line up a few job interviews so 
I'm forced to practice my narrative self elevator pitch.

Happy New Year, y'all.


On 12/30/22 16:36, Steve Smith wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > On 12/30/22 1:32 PM, glen wrote:
 >> Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have 
something to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem contrarian). I feel 
like the closing on whim or choosing hours that may be inconvenient for a population 
is how we *should* do business. There's nothing more inhuman/inhumane than, say, 
shopping at Safeway at 2am because you *know* a multinational corporation is trying 
to squeeze that last blood from the market (and its employees).
 >>
 >> Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self ... e.g. 
tracking 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Gillian Densmore]

Hey! anime is a good thing. Or at least that's what I tell myself with
guilty pleasure anime like HighSchool DXD. :P
now back to you glen and your rant. So what you're saying is: what the
actual [redacted]?  It's down to lipservices to fix the issue of people
going postal or snapping in some other awful way. Sure it'd be good for
them to take a look how some non-trivial amount of people are just hardly
putting food on the table. And be all like: we can either fund that stupid
wall or do a universal base income of so much a week for everyone. I think
the point of the opening question being open is in this odd thing normals
call: health in context. or what I call small talk while the dr. does paper
work . Some nothing burger thing to fill dead time. And believe me I'm not
great about bsing about myself either so you have my comiserations.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 10:50 AM glen  wrote:

> I've mostly been neutral about "the holidays". But as I age and my
> productivity tanks, I look upon all the little "reports" we get from
> friends and family with increasing sadness. It used to simply feel odd that
> "The So-and-so Family" year end report talked about how little Bobby has
> taken his amateur anime to new heights or whatever. But now it feels less
> odd, more normal ... and more digusting somehow. I guess it's a bit like
> the difference between the haughty _curriculum vitae_ and the more
> pedestrian, reflective, _résumé_.
>
> I went in for a "wellness check" with my GP group the other day. Don't ask
> me what they mean by "wellness check". I don't know. But because I don't
> really care which GP of the group sees me, this was a new one. She asked me
> that bane of the cocktail party question "Tell me about yourself." WTF?!? I
> *should* have said something like "I want to be an apocalyptic nomad and
> you breeder/settler types annoy the hell out of me." (She's pregnant with a
> 1st kid at home.) I might have, had we been at a cocktail party. Instead I
> just hemmed and hawed and asked her what she wanted to know, specifically.
> [sigh] It ended the typical way. You drink too much. You're too fat. Your
> cholesterol's too high. Yaddayaddayadda. Nothing to see here. Move along.
>
> I think the problem is I haven't been to a job interview in a while. Maybe
> that's what I should do this year ... try to line up a few job interviews
> so I'm forced to practice my narrative self elevator pitch.
>
> Happy New Year, y'all.
>
>
> On 12/30/22 16:36, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12/30/22 1:32 PM, glen wrote:
> >> Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have
> something to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem
> contrarian). I feel like the closing on whim or choosing hours that may be
> inconvenient for a population is how we *should* do business. There's
> nothing more inhuman/inhumane than, say, shopping at Safeway at 2am because
> you *know* a multinational corporation is trying to squeeze that last blood
> from the market (and its employees).
> >>
> >> Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self ...
> e.g. tracking your footsteps to make sure you get them all in for the day
> ... or counting calories ... or Amazon-style, Taylorist "quantified self".
> *In*convenience is life. Attempts to avoid it are akin to suicide. And
> inconvenience is also pro-social. There's nothing more inconvenient than
> providing social support for a fellow human, sick puppy, or diseased
> ecosystem.
> >>
> >> So, when I see a "gone fishing" sign on a local business, I get a bit
> of a dopamine kick. Good for you, dude.
> >
> > It might also be worth noting that this "renormalization" leaves room
> for excellence...  surely there will be *some* small businesses and
> individuals who will excel by striving to expand or refine their "value
> proposition"...
> >
> > I can see silver linings throughout but I  think there will be "ringing"
> in many dimensions. As for me, I am happy with my new "lowered
> expectations" and even, as you suggest, can applaud a "gone fishing" sign...
> >
> > My own interests in optimization tend toward expanding circles of
> context... in my youth (at least into my 30s) the circle was rarely much
> larger than my self, my nuclear family, my neighborhood, my workplace.
> Nowadays it has become dizzyingly large and too often abstract... probably
> to the point of absurdity and ineffectuality.
> >
> >   It was safer and perhaps saner when I limited my optimization
> ideations to people and places I interacted with daily...   I also
> discovered "satisficing" vs "optimising"  in my 30s which was a significant
> relief, and allowed more degrees of freedom in my optimization/satisficing
> intentions/habits.
> >
> > "Good enough for who it's for" is a much better mantra, IMO than the
> usual "... for government work".
> >
> >>
> >> On 12/30/22 12:16, Steve Smith wrote:
> >>>
>  OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

I've mostly been neutral about "the holidays". But as I age and my productivity tanks, I look upon 
all the little "reports" we get from friends and family with increasing sadness. It used to simply 
feel odd that "The So-and-so Family" year end report talked about how little Bobby has taken his 
amateur anime to new heights or whatever. But now it feels less odd, more normal ... and more digusting 
somehow. I guess it's a bit like the difference between the haughty _curriculum vitae_ and the more 
pedestrian, reflective, _résumé_.

I went in for a "wellness check" with my GP group the other day. Don't ask me what they mean by 
"wellness check". I don't know. But because I don't really care which GP of the group sees me, this was a new 
one. She asked me that bane of the cocktail party question "Tell me about yourself." WTF?!? I *should* have 
said something like "I want to be an apocalyptic nomad and you breeder/settler types annoy the hell out of 
me." (She's pregnant with a 1st kid at home.) I might have, had we been at a cocktail party. Instead I just hemmed 
and hawed and asked her what she wanted to know, specifically. [sigh] It ended the typical way. You drink too much. 
You're too fat. Your cholesterol's too high. Yaddayaddayadda. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I think the problem is I haven't been to a job interview in a while. Maybe 
that's what I should do this year ... try to line up a few job interviews so 
I'm forced to practice my narrative self elevator pitch.

Happy New Year, y'all.


On 12/30/22 16:36, Steve Smith wrote:




On 12/30/22 1:32 PM, glen wrote:

Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have something 
to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem contrarian). I feel 
like the closing on whim or choosing hours that may be inconvenient for a 
population is how we *should* do business. There's nothing more 
inhuman/inhumane than, say, shopping at Safeway at 2am because you *know* a 
multinational corporation is trying to squeeze that last blood from the market 
(and its employees).

Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self ... e.g. tracking 
your footsteps to make sure you get them all in for the day ... or counting calories ... 
or Amazon-style, Taylorist "quantified self". *In*convenience is life. Attempts 
to avoid it are akin to suicide. And inconvenience is also pro-social. There's nothing 
more inconvenient than providing social support for a fellow human, sick puppy, or 
diseased ecosystem.

So, when I see a "gone fishing" sign on a local business, I get a bit of a 
dopamine kick. Good for you, dude.


It might also be worth noting that this "renormalization" leaves room for excellence...  
surely there will be *some* small businesses and individuals who will excel by striving to expand 
or refine their "value proposition"...

I can see silver linings throughout but I  think there will be "ringing" in many dimensions. As for 
me, I am happy with my new "lowered expectations" and even, as you suggest, can applaud a 
"gone fishing" sign...

My own interests in optimization tend toward expanding circles of context... in 
my youth (at least into my 30s) the circle was rarely much larger than my self, 
my nuclear family, my neighborhood, my workplace. Nowadays it has become 
dizzyingly large and too often abstract... probably to the point of absurdity 
and ineffectuality.

  It was safer and perhaps saner when I limited my optimization ideations to people and places I 
interacted with daily...   I also discovered "satisficing" vs "optimising"  in 
my 30s which was a significant relief, and allowed more degrees of freedom in my 
optimization/satisficing intentions/habits.

"Good enough for who it's for" is a much better mantra, IMO than the usual "... for 
government work".



On 12/30/22 12:16, Steve Smith wrote:



OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak Family 
dining out Time.


A new phase of customer service seems to have emerged after COVID. I have ambiguous 
feelings about it.   Previously I was a little offended by various examples of businesses 
not catering well at all to their customer's needs/desires/convenience.   Los Alamos as a 
community is somewhat famous for this...  the "captive audience" and the myriad 
flexibilities of LANL employees lead to things like retail businesses only open from 
9-5PM M-F such that anyone who can't get away from work at a whim simply not being able 
to do business there... or restaurants that are satisfied with a short M-F lunch hour 
and/or closing early (by urban standards) and leaving business on the table.

With the hammering that service personnel took with COVID (in spite of the myriad relief 
programs) as well as small-business owners (which can include franchise operators) I have 
been pretty sympathetic with businesses unable to return to the (sometimes generous) 
hours and services they kept before COVID.    I would certainly 

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Steve Smith]

On 12/30/22 1:32 PM, glen wrote:
Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have 
something to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem 
contrarian). I feel like the closing on whim or choosing hours that 
may be inconvenient for a population is how we *should* do business. 
There's nothing more inhuman/inhumane than, say, shopping at Safeway 
at 2am because you *know* a multinational corporation is trying to 
squeeze that last blood from the market (and its employees).


Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self 
... e.g. tracking your footsteps to make sure you get them all in for 
the day ... or counting calories ... or Amazon-style, Taylorist 
"quantified self". *In*convenience is life. Attempts to avoid it are 
akin to suicide. And inconvenience is also pro-social. There's nothing 
more inconvenient than providing social support for a fellow human, 
sick puppy, or diseased ecosystem.


So, when I see a "gone fishing" sign on a local business, I get a bit 
of a dopamine kick. Good for you, dude.


It might also be worth noting that this "renormalization" leaves room 
for excellence...  surely there will be *some* small businesses and 
individuals who will excel by striving to expand or refine their "value 
proposition"...


I can see silver linings throughout but I  think there will be "ringing" 
in many dimensions. As for me, I am happy with my new "lowered 
expectations" and even, as you suggest, can applaud a "gone fishing" 
sign...


My own interests in optimization tend toward expanding circles of 
context... in my youth (at least into my 30s) the circle was rarely much 
larger than my self, my nuclear family, my neighborhood, my workplace.   
Nowadays it has become dizzyingly large and too often abstract... 
probably to the point of absurdity and ineffectuality.


 It was safer and perhaps saner when I limited my optimization 
ideations to people and places I interacted with daily...   I also 
discovered "satisficing" vs "optimising"  in my 30s which was a 
significant relief, and allowed more degrees of freedom in my 
optimization/satisficing intentions/habits.


"Good enough for who it's for" is a much better mantra, IMO than the 
usual "... for government work".




On 12/30/22 12:16, Steve Smith wrote:


OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is 
peak Family dining out Time.


A new phase of customer service seems to have emerged after COVID.   
I have ambiguous feelings about it.   Previously I was a little 
offended by various examples of businesses not catering well at all 
to their customer's needs/desires/convenience.   Los Alamos as a 
community is somewhat famous for this...  the "captive audience" and 
the myriad flexibilities of LANL employees lead to things like retail 
businesses only open from 9-5PM M-F such that anyone who can't get 
away from work at a whim simply not being able to do business 
there... or restaurants that are satisfied with a short M-F lunch 
hour and/or closing early (by urban standards) and leaving business 
on the table.


With the hammering that service personnel took with COVID (in spite 
of the myriad relief programs) as well as small-business owners 
(which can include franchise operators) I have been pretty 
sympathetic with businesses unable to return to the (sometimes 
generous) hours and services they kept before COVID.    I would 
certainly *like* to see the rich range of available services out 
there return to "normal" but also appreciate that the most vulnerable 
folks aren't out there 'hurting themselves' to meet my whims.


The implications of spiking minimum wages and prices and corporate 
usury, disaster profiteering are all over the place for me... I think 
there will be a lot more "ringing in the system" left to be 
experienced in the aftermath of COVID.







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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[glen]

Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have something 
to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem contrarian). I feel 
like the closing on whim or choosing hours that may be inconvenient for a 
population is how we *should* do business. There's nothing more 
inhuman/inhumane than, say, shopping at Safeway at 2am because you *know* a 
multinational corporation is trying to squeeze that last blood from the market 
(and its employees).

Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self ... e.g. tracking 
your footsteps to make sure you get them all in for the day ... or counting calories ... 
or Amazon-style, Taylorist "quantified self". *In*convenience is life. Attempts 
to avoid it are akin to suicide. And inconvenience is also pro-social. There's nothing 
more inconvenient than providing social support for a fellow human, sick puppy, or 
diseased ecosystem.

So, when I see a "gone fishing" sign on a local business, I get a bit of a 
dopamine kick. Good for you, dude.

On 12/30/22 12:16, Steve Smith wrote:



OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak Family 
dining out Time.


A new phase of customer service seems to have emerged after COVID.   I have ambiguous 
feelings about it.   Previously I was a little offended by various examples of businesses 
not catering well at all to their customer's needs/desires/convenience.   Los Alamos as a 
community is somewhat famous for this...  the "captive audience" and the myriad 
flexibilities of LANL employees lead to things like retail businesses only open from 
9-5PM M-F such that anyone who can't get away from work at a whim simply not being able 
to do business there... or restaurants that are satisfied with a short M-F lunch hour 
and/or closing early (by urban standards) and leaving business on the table.

With the hammering that service personnel took with COVID (in spite of the myriad relief 
programs) as well as small-business owners (which can include franchise operators) I have 
been pretty sympathetic with businesses unable to return to the (sometimes generous) 
hours and services they kept before COVID.    I would certainly *like* to see the rich 
range of available services out there return to "normal" but also appreciate 
that the most vulnerable folks aren't out there 'hurting themselves' to meet my whims.

The implications of spiking minimum wages and prices and corporate usury, disaster 
profiteering are all over the place for me... I think there will be a lot more 
"ringing in the system" left to be experienced in the aftermath of COVID.




--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Steve Smith]

OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak 
Family dining out Time.


A new phase of customer service seems to have emerged after COVID.   I 
have ambiguous feelings about it.   Previously I was a little offended 
by various examples of businesses not catering well at all to their 
customer's needs/desires/convenience.   Los Alamos as a community is 
somewhat famous for this...  the "captive audience" and the myriad 
flexibilities of LANL employees lead to things like retail businesses 
only open from 9-5PM M-F such that anyone who can't get away from work 
at a whim simply not being able to do business there... or restaurants 
that are satisfied with a short M-F lunch hour and/or closing early (by 
urban standards) and leaving business on the table.


With the hammering that service personnel took with COVID (in spite of 
the myriad relief programs) as well as small-business owners (which can 
include franchise operators) I have been pretty sympathetic with 
businesses unable to return to the (sometimes generous) hours and 
services they kept before COVID.    I would certainly *like* to see the 
rich range of available services out there return to "normal" but also 
appreciate that the most vulnerable folks aren't out there 'hurting 
themselves' to meet my whims.


The implications of spiking minimum wages and prices and corporate 
usury, disaster profiteering are all over the place for me... I think 
there will be a lot more "ringing in the system" left to be experienced 
in the aftermath of COVID.


In any case, I'm glad to hear you guys found a venue.


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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Gillian Densmore]

(insert a stupid joke about tomorrow being saturday)

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 10:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> I'll meet you at saveur
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:37 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak
>> Family dining out Time.  John Dobson and I are headed to Saveur which we
>> have confirmed to be open. It's at the corner of Galileo and cerrillos Road
>> downtown. It's next to the new courthouse.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm heading to Pecos Trail Cafe.  Gorge will appreciate us coming.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:05 AM Frank Wimberly 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 To my surprise St John's Peterson Center is locked. I've never seen
 that before

 As an alternative I'm wondering about the Old Pecos trail Cafe which is
 on Old Pecos trail just south of Zia Road. They have excellent food and
 coffee and lots of room it's about halfway between my house and John
 Dobson's house.  I'll wait till someone else arrives at St John's as a
 sanity check and then probably head for Old Pecos trail Cafe. If anything
 changes I'll send another email.

 Frank


 ---
 Frank C. Wimberly
 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
 Santa Fe, NM 87505

 505 670-9918
 Santa Fe, NM

 On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly 
 wrote:

> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
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>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Stephen Guerin]

I'll meet you at saveur

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:37 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak
> Family dining out Time.  John Dobson and I are headed to Saveur which we
> have confirmed to be open. It's at the corner of Galileo and cerrillos Road
> downtown. It's next to the new courthouse.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm heading to Pecos Trail Cafe.  Gorge will appreciate us coming.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:05 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>
>>> To my surprise St John's Peterson Center is locked. I've never seen that
>>> before
>>>
>>> As an alternative I'm wondering about the Old Pecos trail Cafe which is
>>> on Old Pecos trail just south of Zia Road. They have excellent food and
>>> coffee and lots of room it's about halfway between my house and John
>>> Dobson's house.  I'll wait till someone else arrives at St John's as a
>>> sanity check and then probably head for Old Pecos trail Cafe. If anything
>>> changes I'll send another email.
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?

 Frank

 ---
 Frank C. Wimberly
 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
 Santa Fe, NM 87505

 505 670-9918
 Santa Fe, NM

>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
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> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Frank Wimberly]

OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak
Family dining out Time.  John Dobson and I are headed to Saveur which we
have confirmed to be open. It's at the corner of Galileo and cerrillos Road
downtown. It's next to the new courthouse.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> I'm heading to Pecos Trail Cafe.  Gorge will appreciate us coming.
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:05 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> To my surprise St John's Peterson Center is locked. I've never seen that
>> before
>>
>> As an alternative I'm wondering about the Old Pecos trail Cafe which is
>> on Old Pecos trail just south of Zia Road. They have excellent food and
>> coffee and lots of room it's about halfway between my house and John
>> Dobson's house.  I'll wait till someone else arrives at St John's as a
>> sanity check and then probably head for Old Pecos trail Cafe. If anything
>> changes I'll send another email.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>
>>> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Stephen Guerin]

I'm heading to Pecos Trail Cafe.  Gorge will appreciate us coming.

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:05 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> To my surprise St John's Peterson Center is locked. I've never seen that
> before
>
> As an alternative I'm wondering about the Old Pecos trail Cafe which is on
> Old Pecos trail just south of Zia Road. They have excellent food and coffee
> and lots of room it's about halfway between my house and John Dobson's
> house.  I'll wait till someone else arrives at St John's as a sanity check
> and then probably head for Old Pecos trail Cafe. If anything changes I'll
> send another email.
>
> Frank
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Frank Wimberly]

To my surprise St John's Peterson Center is locked. I've never seen that
before

As an alternative I'm wondering about the Old Pecos trail Cafe which is on
Old Pecos trail just south of Zia Road. They have excellent food and coffee
and lots of room it's about halfway between my house and John Dobson's
house.  I'll wait till someone else arrives at St John's as a sanity check
and then probably head for Old Pecos trail Cafe. If anything changes I'll
send another email.

Frank


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[George Duncan]

If not closed I will be there

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 9:22 PM Edward Angel  wrote:

> Is there an alternate location if you find it’s closed? Please text or
> email me if you find it closed in the morning. I can’t get there until
> after 9:30.
>
> Ed
> ___
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
> 
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Dec 29, 2022, at 9:10 PM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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-- 
George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
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My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
then be a valuable delusion."
>From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
power." Joanna Macy.
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Edward Angel]

Is there an alternate location if you find it’s closed? Please text or email me 
if you find it closed in the morning. I can’t get there until after 9:30.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Dec 29, 2022, at 9:10 PM, Stephen Guerin  
> wrote:
> 

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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Stephen Guerin]

I will be there and leave at 1050a.

Are they open?

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Tom Johnson]

Yeah, I will probably be there.

===
Tom Johnson
Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, New Mexico
505-577-6482
===

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:44 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Frank Wimberly]

See you there, John.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:49 PM John Dobson  wrote:

> I plan to be there.  John Dobson
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:44 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[John Dobson]

I plan to be there.  John Dobson

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:44 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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