Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
This is becoming a shark feeding frenzy of Media demanding that I believe different versions of the demented beliefs. Which ever outlet I side with demands I become a believer. I am not Normal to begin with, otherwise I MIGHT actually take up arms and shoot at a target they suggest. Should I take a Gravol to control the vertigo as they spin me around, aiming at phantoms. Hollande is strutting about like a shrunken , down sized de Gaulle after he nearly lost France to a Troop of Disgruntled Foreign Legionnaires from Algeria. al Jazeera wants me to believe that there is a war against all Muslims. CBC wants me to believe that the Muslims are about to attack the country. Wait we are in a deep freeze and any Arab set upon conquering Canada must contend with unimaginable Arctic Cold and if they want to rob a gas station on the way they will probably freeze to death in the dark. Hollande wants us to believe he is the reincarnation of de Gaulle or Vercingetorix. Kerry wants me to believe he speaks French. Putin probably wants me to believe he is Vladimir Monomahk the slayer of Turks. These tough-guys are not so crazy as the Media. They have remained silent for now. One Canadian media outlet is attacking our National Outlet , CBC, as cowards , yes they used the word correctly, who refused to show the Charlie Hebdo images on air( they were Blacked -Out). Maybe Oprah Winfry can get them to confess on prime time T.V. A Montreal journalist , has bared his chest ( but no soul was to be seen) and declared that CBC ordered him to self-censor out of fear. What a show. Actually the Russian media is being rather discreet, what a shock. No one has the wherewithal to post the price of oil or the disposition of ISIL and the Saudi invasions. vib I will snicker from my warm hovel in this cold blast. I am waiting for the much feared promised global warming to arrive. Just where is Al Gore now that I want to believe in his delusions? If I pick one belief will the others stop pestering me? No I guess it is more like an attack of Blackflies or mosquitoes. Perhaps Glen is correct Beliefs don't kill people. People kill people I might add Believers have the right to kill non-believers. -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen Sent: January-08-15 7:24 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god On 01/08/2015 03:49 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: Or that they are mentally ill and need `retraining'. But that takes us down the road of recognizing the danger latent in faith, which I don't think the US is close to doing. Exactly ... though it goes beyond just faith to any sort of psychological problem, I think. E.g. It's fine if you're deluded into believing, say, the law of attraction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction_%28New_Thought%29 as long as you don't do things like rely on it to heal your children or somesuch. Beliefs don't kill people. People kill people. ;-) -- ⇔ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
On 01/08/2015 03:49 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: Or that they are mentally ill and need `retraining'. But that takes us down the road of recognizing the danger latent in faith, which I don't think the US is close to doing. Exactly ... though it goes beyond just faith to any sort of psychological problem, I think. E.g. It's fine if you're deluded into believing, say, the law of attraction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction_%28New_Thought%29 as long as you don't do things like rely on it to heal your children or somesuch. Beliefs don't kill people. People kill people. ;-) -- ⇔ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
Re: clique preservation, I keep finding myself wondering if we're shooting ourselves in the foot calling these acts terrorism and the actors terrorists. It seems to me these are just criminals. If you buy the Dawkins/Harris/Maher line about Islam being more violent than other religions, then perhaps these new categories (like enemy combatant and terrorist) might make sense. But if you don't buy that (like me) and tend to think any person is capable of massive destruction given the right circumstances, then such categories don't make as much sense. Granted, _if_ these people were rational and strategic and were committing these acts purposefully to instill terror, then it makes sense and the actors would sometimes commit other, more mainstream acts (crimes, acts of war, etc that are not terrorism). But it's difficult to buy the argument that these guys (or Tsarnaev and the like) are rational. I can see someone thinking of bin Laden as rational and a terrorist. But these guys seem more like fever-eyed lunatics to me. The same issue comes up w.r.t. gitmo and justifications for suspending due process. If the US were really more focused on integration, then wouldn't we treat people like this as criminals and not terrorists? On 01/08/2015 02:36 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: The big issue Europe, and France in particular faces, is multiculturalism vs cultural integration. The US is structured to favor the latter. Europe the former. The co-existence approach (multiculturalism) can in the worst of cases lead to ghettos and isolation, leading to anger and hate. I have zero idea if this is part of the apparent (and definitely not real) perception that islam, rather than islamic nut cases, is the cause of the current violence. -- ⇔ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
On Thu, 2015-01-08 at 15:17 -0800, glen wrote: If the US were really more focused on integration, then wouldn't we treat people like this as criminals and not terrorists? Or that they are mentally ill and need `retraining'. But that takes us down the road of recognizing the danger latent in faith, which I don't think the US is close to doing. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
Glen writes: (¬Falsifiable ↛ false) (fantasy ≢ counterfactual) On Thu, 2015-01-08 at 15:47 -0600, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote: Time, trial and error improves the operation of delusions. [..] So the ultimate goal of terrorism is not to kill all of it's critics but to make as many as possible afraid to act. One might complain of some intolerance on my part in not acknowledging the obvious distinction Glen makes. But then we're reminded, again, what happens when it isn't nipped in the bud.. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
So... Delusions are very common and make up the bulk of frenetic Human Activity. Since so few know which Delusions may turn out to be falsifiable, they must resort to a dirty trick. They defend every delusion with denial: should the truth remain , they then resort to threat of violence and when overwhelmed by the inescapable truth they fight to the death or someone else's. Paris seems to have become the latest battleground in the war of Delusions. I place my bets on the French; they appear to have more discipline and a greater ability to think ahead. Maybe some delusions are more mature than others. Time, trial and error improves the operation of delusions. Eventually they may improve or evolve to the degree that they become Science. The French have historically significantly more practise than most. No one gets it right the first time, that is why memory is so critical. So the ultimate goal of terrorism is not to kill all of it's critics but to make as many as possible afraid to act. The goal is pacification/passivity. Acquiescence to a delusion, suspension of disbelief, perhaps? So mocking a delusion is certainly a dangerous act requiring great bravery or blind stupidity. Perhaps there is a metric for Delusion rather than Truth since the former is entirely Human and the latter is indifferent to our wishes. vib -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels Sent: January-07-15 2:22 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god And the skeptical response: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/can-science-prove-the-existence- of-god-b6fefdc52588 Do you want or need your belief in a divine or supernatural origin to the Universe to be based in something that could be scientifically disproven? And so believers who avoid this trap must construct an origins story which cannot be falsifiable. It must be fantasy. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
The big issue Europe, and France in particular faces, is multiculturalism vs cultural integration. The US is structured to favor the latter. Europe the former. The co-existence approach (multiculturalism) can in the worst of cases lead to ghettos and isolation, leading to anger and hate. I have zero idea if this is part of the apparent (and definitely not real) perception that islam, rather than islamic nut cases, is the cause of the current violence. -- Owen On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote: Glen writes: (¬Falsifiable ↛ false) (fantasy ≢ counterfactual) On Thu, 2015-01-08 at 15:47 -0600, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote: Time, trial and error improves the operation of delusions. [..] So the ultimate goal of terrorism is not to kill all of it's critics but to make as many as possible afraid to act. One might complain of some intolerance on my part in not acknowledging the obvious distinction Glen makes. But then we're reminded, again, what happens when it isn't nipped in the bud.. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
And the skeptical response: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/can-science-prove-the-existence-of-god-b6fefdc52588 Do you want or need your belief in a divine or supernatural origin to the Universe to be based in something that could be scientifically disproven? And so believers who avoid this trap must construct an origins story which cannot be falsifiable. It must be fantasy. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] Slasdhot linked article RE; god
On 01/07/2015 12:22 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: And so believers who avoid this trap must construct an origins story which cannot be falsifiable. It must be fantasy. (¬Falsifiable ↛ false) (fantasy ≢ counterfactual) -- ⇔ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
