Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

It's a valid point and agrees with my lay out of when it is and is not appropriate to 
assert cross-trophic attributes. Sometimes you are your fist. Sometimes you are not your 
fist. Unless one makes their full argument like you're implying with the "punch in 
the face" function, including what replaceable function you're relying on, it's 
lazy, at best, to assume one way or the other.

But in the case of Sarbajit's rhetoric. He knows full well that the US 
government is not a singular thing, at least as much as I know the Indian 
government is not well-balled up into the singular Modi. I'd buy the laziness 
from an intellectually challenged right winger at the pub, but not from 
Sarbajit.


On 7/12/22 15:28, Jon Zingale wrote:

I think I disagree with Glen here. When the accumulated meatiness of "my" fist meets the face of the bloke 
next to "me" at the bar, I see no problem with him blaming "me" for the violence, whether or not 
there is a consistent formal theory of "me" for him to found his judgement upon. It is an abuse of rhetoric, 
IMO, to then go on to explain to the bloke why I couldn't have punched him.

as far as:

"""

Seen from New Delhi (India), a distance of 8,000 miles, the US of A appears
as a monolithic ("One nation under a Christian God") capitalist nation
regardless of which of your 2 interchangeable parties are in power in
Washington. For us Trump is the same as Biden, Farid Zakaria is no
different from Tucker Carlson.

"""

Yeah, some of us here feel that way too. I am always sorry to hear that this 
kind of violence is being perpetrated around the globe. It doesn't take much 
work to uncover some truly inhumane actions carried out or supported by actors 
at all levels of American hegemony.


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Marcus Daniels]

How does the prismreports story has anything to do with the safety of a drug?   
It sounds to me like another story of growing pains of racial inclusion in the 
workforce and how the left can’t get out of its own way?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2022 1:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

Hi Glen and Nick
Seen from New Delhi (India), a distance of 8,000 miles, the US of A appears as 
a monolithic ("One nation under a Christian God") capitalist nation regardless 
of which of your 2 interchangeable parties are in power in Washington. For us 
Trump is the same as Biden, Farid Zakaria is no different from Tucker Carlson.
In so far as the Guttmacher dispute is concerned, organisations I am connected 
to have an ongoing dispute with Wikipedia since 2013, and they noticed the 
contributions of this Wikipedia account 
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/LPSingh] were strangely 
suspicious and were promoting drug based self induced "home" abortions in India 
in violation of India's law. Because the account claims to be medical student 
in a top medical government college of India and also a specialist in 
abortions, one of our team members tried to alert the Wikipedia community 
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MalluMalleus=806327897]
 but instead ended up getting blocked at Wikipedia.
We then confirmed under Freedom of Information that no such student ever 
existed at the KEM College and our complaints to the Federal Health Ministry of 
India also unearthed the Guttmacher Foundation connections (sock-puppetry) and 
our Govt took some positive actions (albeit only temporarily till their top 
officers were suitably bribed) against the foundation's activities in India.
We can say many things about Guttmacher, but this other article says quite a 
bit of it already 
[https://prismreports.org/2021/12/06/guttmacher-institute-staff-say-a-toxic-work-culture-has-the-reproductive-rights-research-giant-in-a-death-spiral/]

Sarbajit

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:23 AM glen 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the 
overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would make sense to 
accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something like hypocrisy. But even 
there, we have different regimes ran by different people and there's a turnover 
of individuals within the affiliated organizations.

I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments against 
willy-nilly overturning "precedent" and cross administration changes like Trump 
rejecting the nuclear deal with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens United 
ruling and the false equivalence between national debt/deficit and household 
debt.

Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative government be 
*hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?


On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sarbajit,
>
> Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science behind it?
>
> I am guessing that this is all new to us.
>
> As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system, usually a 
> person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.  Perhaps people 
> are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, 
> hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!  So instead of 
> saying that governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are 
> sort of like governments.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 
> <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
>
> The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
>
> For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced 
> abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their 
> puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and 
> outright lies.
>
> These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red 
> handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced 
> abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got 
> Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way back 
> through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government servants 
&

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Jon Zingale]

I think I disagree with Glen here. When the accumulated meatiness of "my"
fist meets the face of the bloke next to "me" at the bar, I see no problem
with him blaming "me" for the violence, whether or not there is a
consistent formal theory of "me" for him to found his judgement upon. It is
an abuse of rhetoric, IMO, to then go on to explain to the bloke why I
couldn't have punched him.

as far as:

"""

Seen from New Delhi (India), a distance of 8,000 miles, the US of A appears
as a monolithic ("One nation under a Christian God") capitalist nation
regardless of which of your 2 interchangeable parties are in power in
Washington. For us Trump is the same as Biden, Farid Zakaria is no
different from Tucker Carlson.

"""

Yeah, some of us here feel that way too. I am always sorry to hear
that this kind of violence is being perpetrated around the globe. It
doesn't take much work to uncover some truly inhumane actions carried
out or supported by actors at all levels of American hegemony.
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

cific implications, I would not be 
surprised to find that your assertions about abortificants being toxic, even carcinogenic were spot-on.   I 
believe that *many* (if not all) Medicines (Western and otherwise) *are* toxic (see virtually all forms of 
cancer remedy) but represent a presumed "lesser evil".   A great deal of the abortions promoted in 
our (Western) culture, at best, qualify (to me) as "lesser evils"  which is a sad statement about 
our culture... but in my value system, nevertheless "lesser" if still tragic.

While I am often shocked by some of your statements and claims, I can attribute 
a lot of that to the very *valuable* cultural parallax you offer when you make 
those statements here...   We are a fairly monocultural group, even *with* 
yours and a few other voices here... I appreciate the added spectral spread 
your offerings induce.

On 7/12/22 1:23 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Well, hypocrisy is not an argument.   Our reach exceeds our grasp, is all.
C


On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:53 PM glen  wrote:

What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the 
overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would make sense to 
accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something like hypocrisy. But even 
there, we have different regimes ran by different people and there's a turnover 
of individuals within the affiliated organizations.

I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments against willy-nilly 
overturning "precedent" and cross administration changes like Trump rejecting the nuclear 
deal with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens United ruling and the false equivalence between 
national debt/deficit and household debt.

Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative government be 
*hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?


On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sarbajit,
>
> Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science behind 
it?
>
> I am guessing that this is all new to us.
>
> As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system, 
usually a person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.  Perhaps 
people are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, 
hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!  So instead of saying 
that governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are sort of 
like governments.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 

> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
>
> The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
>
> For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced abortions 
as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their puppets like the 
Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and outright lies.
>
> These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red handed by 
us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced abortion" 
article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got Guttmacher delisted in India 
for about a year, but they made their way back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to 
bribe foreign government servants to shape policy
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this 
popped up in my feed:
>
>     How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion 
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion>
>
>     I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my oscillators with 
the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought 
veterinary ivermectin and the people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, 
this post came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after surgery: 
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11 
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11>. (Placebo is a thing, despite 
Blumner's write-off.)
>
>     Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim that 
*healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us actua

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

lt;https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>>
 >
 > *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
 > *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
 > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
 > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
 >
 > The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
 >
 > For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced abortions 
as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their puppets like the 
Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and outright lies.
 >
 > These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red handed 
by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced abortion" 
article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got Guttmacher delisted in India 
for about a year, but they made their way back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to 
bribe foreign government servants to shape policy
 >
 > Sarbajit
 >
 > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com 
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
 >
 >     In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this 
popped up in my feed:
 >
 >     How to Give Yourself an Abortion
 > https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion 
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion> 
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion 
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion>>
 >
 >     I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my oscillators with the whole 
"horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin 
and the people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up this morning about 
a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after surgery: 
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11 
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11> 
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11 
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11>>. (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's 
write-off.)
 >
 >     Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim that 
*healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even 
mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, 
neck, and lower back? Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy 
because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest 
bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation concept, at worst 
a malinformation concept: https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf

<https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf>
 >     
<https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf 
<https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf>>
 >
 >     Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting 
out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled water, alcoholism 
or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all point at that thing, whatever that 
thing is.
 >
 >     In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Steve Smith]

grated
systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, hypocrisy, loving
thy neighbor too well, and all of that!  So instead of saying that
governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are
sort of like governments.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
    > *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of
*Sarbajit Roy
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
>
> The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
>
> For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self
induced abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America
through their puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using
misrepresentations and outright lies.
>
> These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was
caught red handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to
shape the "self induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and
as an at-home remedy. We got Guttmacher delisted in India for
about a year, but they made their way back through the USAID
RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government servants to shape
policy
>
> Sarbajit
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW,
this popped up in my feed:
>
>     How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion>
>
>     I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy
was added to my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing
for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought
veterinary ivermectin and the people who used the disgusting sneer
"horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up this morning about a
homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after surgery:
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11>.
(Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
>     Nick is fond of asking people whether they take
multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim that
*healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us actually
qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? That's not
an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the
excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do
pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and
maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for hobbies. But what
you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the
inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event
would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best
a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:

https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>   
 
<https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf>
>
>     Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading
self-help books, cutting out magazine ads for their "vision
board", or self-administering veterinary de-fetus pills, but
there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled water,
alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc.
all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>
>     In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ


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Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Sarbajit Roy]

Hi Glen and Nick

Seen from New Delhi (India), a distance of 8,000 miles, the US of A appears
as a monolithic ("One nation under a Christian God") capitalist nation
regardless of which of your 2 interchangeable parties are in power in
Washington. For us Trump is the same as Biden, Farid Zakaria is no
different from Tucker Carlson.

In so far as the Guttmacher dispute is concerned, organisations I am
connected to have an ongoing dispute with Wikipedia since 2013, and they
noticed the contributions of this Wikipedia account [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/LPSingh] were strangely
suspicious and were promoting drug based self induced "home" abortions in
India in violation of India's law. Because the account claims to be medical
student in a top medical government college of India and also a specialist
in abortions, one of our team members tried to alert the Wikipedia
community [
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:MalluMalleus=806327897]
but instead ended up getting blocked at Wikipedia.

We then confirmed under Freedom of Information that no such student ever
existed at the KEM College and our complaints to the Federal Health
Ministry of India also unearthed the Guttmacher Foundation connections
(sock-puppetry) and our Govt took some positive actions (albeit only
temporarily till their top officers were suitably bribed) against the
foundation's activities in India.

We can say many things about Guttmacher, but this other article says quite
a bit of it already [
https://prismreports.org/2021/12/06/guttmacher-institute-staff-say-a-toxic-work-culture-has-the-reproductive-rights-research-giant-in-a-death-spiral/
]

Sarbajit

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:23 AM glen  wrote:

> What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the
> overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would make sense to
> accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something like hypocrisy. But even
> there, we have different regimes ran by different people and there's a
> turnover of individuals within the affiliated organizations.
>
> I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments against
> willy-nilly overturning "precedent" and cross administration changes like
> Trump rejecting the nuclear deal with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens
> United ruling and the false equivalence between national debt/deficit and
> household debt.
>
> Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative government be
> *hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?
>
>
> On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Sarbajit,
> >
> > Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science
> behind it?
> >
> > I am guessing that this is all new to us.
> >
> > As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system,
> usually a person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.
> Perhaps people are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its
> form, deception, hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!
> So instead of saying that governments are sort of like people, we might say
> that people are sort of like governments.
> >
> > N
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> >
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> >
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
> >
> > *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
> >
> > The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
> >
> > For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced
> abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their
> puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and
> outright lies.
> >
> > These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught
> red handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self
> induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We
> got Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way
> back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government
> servants to shape policy
> >
> > Sarbajit
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this
> popped up in my feed:
> >
> > How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> > https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion <
> h

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Carl Tollander]

Well, hypocrisy is not an argument.   Our reach exceeds our grasp, is all.
C


On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:53 PM glen  wrote:

> What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the
> overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would make sense to
> accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something like hypocrisy. But even
> there, we have different regimes ran by different people and there's a
> turnover of individuals within the affiliated organizations.
>
> I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments against
> willy-nilly overturning "precedent" and cross administration changes like
> Trump rejecting the nuclear deal with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens
> United ruling and the false equivalence between national debt/deficit and
> household debt.
>
> Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative government be
> *hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?
>
>
> On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Sarbajit,
> >
> > Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science
> behind it?
> >
> > I am guessing that this is all new to us.
> >
> > As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system,
> usually a person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.
> Perhaps people are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its
> form, deception, hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!
> So instead of saying that governments are sort of like people, we might say
> that people are sort of like governments.
> >
> > N
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> >
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> >
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
> >
> > *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
> > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care
> >
> > The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.
> >
> > For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced
> abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their
> puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and
> outright lies.
> >
> > These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught
> red handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self
> induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We
> got Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way
> back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government
> servants to shape policy
> >
> > Sarbajit
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this
> popped up in my feed:
> >
> > How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> > https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion <
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion>
> >
> > I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was
> added to my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19.
> (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin
> and the people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot,
> this post came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with
> the patient after surgery:
> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11 <
> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11>.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
> >
> > Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or
> not. And while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee
> them out. *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does
> "health" even mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I
> "healthy", despite the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and
> lower back? Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now
> abated follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do
> pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a
> full-time job with a bit of time for hobbies. But what you see from the
> outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick
> puppy where the slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled"
> categ

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

What's a bit bizarre about Sarbajit's accusation of hypocrisy is the 
overwhelming diversity of US Government components. It would make sense to 
accuse a single agency, say, the FDA of something like hypocrisy. But even 
there, we have different regimes ran by different people and there's a turnover 
of individuals within the affiliated organizations.

I suppose this is the heart of the "stare decisis" arguments against willy-nilly 
overturning "precedent" and cross administration changes like Trump rejecting the nuclear 
deal with Iran. It reminds me of the Citizens United ruling and the false equivalence between 
national debt/deficit and household debt.

Can a materially open thing like a (somewhat) representative government be 
*hypocritical*? What is hypocrisy, really?


On 7/3/22 18:23, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:

Sarbajit,

Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science behind it?

I am guessing that this is all new to us.

As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system, usually a 
person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.  Perhaps people 
are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, 
hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!  So instead of saying 
that governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are sort of 
like governments.

N

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>

*From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Sarbajit Roy
*Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] self-care

The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.

For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced abortions as 
"safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their puppets like the 
Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and outright lies.

These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red handed by us 
for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced abortion" 
article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got Guttmacher delisted in 
India for about a year, but they made their way back through the USAID RMNCHA programs 
used to bribe foreign government servants to shape policy

Sarbajit

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up 
in my feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion 
<https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion>

I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my oscillators with the 
whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought 
veterinary ivermectin and the people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, 
this post came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after surgery: 
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11 
<https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11>. (Placebo is a thing, despite 
Blumner's write-off.)

Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* 
people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? 
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, 
and lower back? Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy 
because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the 
slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation 
concept, at worst a malinformation concept: 
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf

<https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf>

Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting out 
magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled water, 
alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all point at that thing, 
whatever that thing is.

In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ 

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[thompnickson2]

Sarbajit,

 

Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science behind it?  

 

I am guessing that this is all new to us. 

 

As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system, usually a 
person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.  Perhaps people 
are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, 
hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!  So instead of saying 
that governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are sort of 
like governments.  

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

 

The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.

For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced 
abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their puppets 
like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and outright 
lies.

These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red 
handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced 
abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got 
Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way back 
through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government servants to 
shape policy

Sarbajit

 

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote:

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in my 
feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion

I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my 
oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm 
poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people 
who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up 
this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after 
surgery: https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11. 
(Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)

Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while 
it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* 
amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? 
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the 
excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back? Despite my 
sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? 
Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints 
without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the 
inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event would topple 
me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation concept, 
at worst a malinformation concept: 
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf

Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting 
out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled 
water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all 
point at that thing, whatever that thing is.

In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Steve Smith]

Eric wrote:
Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now 
fully found and asserted its identity.


I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need 
an organized response, and how we do that.


Having just recently toured the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam and 
walking the streets of Weesp, seeing brass plaques memorializing the 
jewish families taken (and almost consistently exterminated) by the 
Nazis, I am freshly sensitized to how fast and how bad things can get... 
especially recognizing that this all happened in my parent's 
lifetimes.   Mary's mother was born the same day/year as Anne Frank and 
identified with her from the time her diaries were released in English 
(early 50s).   Another friend's parents were at Nuremberg for the trials 
(Belgian mother worked service for the Allies and father was an MP 
guarding those on trial). All of this generation are dead now but we 
heard (some of) their stories growing up.


We also met (on our European travels) our own generation (moslty 
professional class) who still remember growing up in the aftermath of 
WWII, bombed out buildings, machine gun holes in walls, etc. Their 
perspective on the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a bit sharper than 
mine has been.   The few "strangers" we spoke with about US politics 
were very circumspect... this would be service people we met along the 
way, usually somewhat displaced by EU opportunities (e.g Czech in his 
30s driving a bus in Iceland) and pretty careful about making 
assumptions about our politics when discussing (at first)... I didn't 
run into anyone casually (or otherwise) who was openly populist or right 
wing.  On individual issues, we did meet our share of anti-globalists 
and anti-progress (i.e. Brexit, Windmills, etc), however...


The forces of anger/intolerance always seem to have a certain kind of 
transitory upper-hand...   if you don't stand up to them you lose, but 
if you stand up to them too strongly you risk becoming them and lose 
doubly. And yet, those periods of extreme always seem to burn themselves 
out? /

/

/Performative cruelty/ *is* a very apt term.

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Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Sarbajit Roy]

The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.

For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced
abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their
puppets like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and
outright lies.

These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red
handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self
induced abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We
got Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way
back through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government
servants to shape policy

Sarbajit

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen  wrote:

> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up
> in my feed:
>
> How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
>
> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to
> my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes,
> I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the
> people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post
> came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient
> after surgery:
> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And
> while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out.
> *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even
> mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite
> the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
> Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
> follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups,
> shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job
> with a bit of time for hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't
> reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the
> slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy"
> is at best a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:
> https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>
> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books,
> cutting out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering
> veterinary de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad
> diets, bottled water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral
> failure, etc. all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>
> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

Ha! Kauffman's comment is just plain silly. I've had migraines since I was at least 4 
years old, which is the earliest memory I have. I had severe allergies my entire 
childhood until I took allergy shots. And I've had chronic back pain since I was 14. The 
"over 50" thing is pure nonsense, not only for me but for most people. In fact, 
it strikes me as a bit toxic to claim that any one of us is pain-free under 50. Of 
course, what matters is how you deal with it, regardless of age.

As for the self-help thing, I'm also skeptical. I think *curiosity* and FOMO are drivers for most 
of the wacko behaviors I see, especially the "do your own research" memes of QAnon, fad 
diets, etc. Rather than pain, anxiety, depression et al, I'd chalk it up to something like agency. 
People really *want* to be in charge of their selves, have free will, etc. Cancer patients are a 
great example. The non-specific effects (placebo, nocebo, etc) have a dramatic impact on several 
types. As long as the patient *thinks* their actions matter, they cope with their circumstances 
much better. If "the thing" is associated with an illness of some kind, it's probably 
more an existential angst or feeling that they're not in control. Maybe that's more like fear or 
frustration, I suppose. But it doesn't matter what you call it. Sneering at those who feel it and 
respond to it isn't productive.

I am worried about those women who self-administer medication abortion > 13 weeks. 
The recommendation on some sites is to go hang out really close to a hospital, maybe 
even in the emergency room lobby, while doing it. And there are no good solutions for 
self-administered abortion > 20 weeks.

On 7/1/22 14:06, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Glen,

Over 20 years ago Stuart Kauffman was in my office.  I stood up and groaned.  He asked, 
"What's wrong ?"  I said that it was just arthritis.  He said, "If you're over fifty 
and don't feel pain it means you're dead."

Seriously, I think "the thing" that causes people to engage in the 
activities/choices you list is some combination of pain, anxiety, and depression.  The 
latter two almost always occur together.

Frank


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 9:22 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up 
in my feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion 


I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my oscillators with the 
whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm poking fun both at the people who bought 
veterinary ivermectin and the people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, 
this post came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after surgery: 
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11 
. (Placebo is a thing, despite 
Blumner's write-off.)

Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* 
people just pee them out. *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? 
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, 
and lower back? Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy 
because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the 
slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation 
concept, at worst a malinformation concept: 
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf



Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting out 
magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled water, 
alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all point at that thing, 
whatever that thing is.

In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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FRIAM-COMIC 

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Frank Wimberly]

Glen,

Over 20 years ago Stuart Kauffman was in my office.  I stood up and
groaned.  He asked, "What's wrong ?"  I said that it was just arthritis.
He said, "If you're over fifty and don't feel pain it means you're dead."

Seriously, I think "the thing" that causes people to engage in the
activities/choices you list is some combination of pain, anxiety, and
depression.  The latter two almost always occur together.

Frank


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 9:22 AM glen  wrote:

> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up
> in my feed:
>
> How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
>
> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to
> my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes,
> I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the
> people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post
> came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient
> after surgery:
> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And
> while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out.
> *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even
> mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite
> the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
> Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
> follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups,
> shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job
> with a bit of time for hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't
> reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the
> slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy"
> is at best a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:
> https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>
> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books,
> cutting out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering
> veterinary de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad
> diets, bottled water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral
> failure, etc. all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>
> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

Well, OK. I'd quibble with your use of "necessary". It may be extremely likely 
to continue happening. But there's probably a just-so world where it doesn't have to 
happen. Whatever, though. The point is that the lefty objectives aren't vague in any 
significant sense. It's the bad faith gaming by the righties that try to argue they're 
vague. Treat them like trolls on the internet. Either trash 'em with the same debunk 
every time they pop up; or simply ignore them and move ahead with the project. 
Essentially, I agree. Engagement with their rhetoric doesn't do us much good, even if *I* 
personally enjoy it.

On 7/1/22 12:38, Marcus Daniels wrote:

It may be necessary to let children be shot in schools.   There are so many 
people that are so afraid that Gates or Fauci or Soros (someone?) will tell 
them how to live, or because they fear the rage of the black man, etc. that 
they invest a significant fraction of their income into weapons and ammunition. 
  I don't see any reasoning with these people.  Something deep in their 
amygdala is wired wrong.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 11:04 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

IDK. That just sounds like laziness to me. "The West" is a fiction. We all know that. And it's irrelevant to the values 
aspired to by Egalitarianism or "Western Enlightenment", anyway. The actual trouble is that the egalitarians strawman 
each other and allow non-egalitarians to strawman them. A good example is the (false) identification of "equal" with 
"equality" or "equal opportunity" or whatever persnickety nonsense token the bullshitters poke at. The core 
ideas come from positive and negative freedoms. Freedom from being mugged when you walk down the street or being shot by an incel 
while studying math, polluted cities and rivers, etc. Freedom to buy a house, sell your kidney, ride your enduro through pristine 
forest, etc.

There's no "wondering" there. There's no lack of concreteness there. Children shouldn't 
be shot in schools. That's pretty concrete. Adults should be able to trace campaign contributions. 
That's concrete. It's all clear and fairly well laid out. The strawmanny pretense that it's vague 
is part of their rhetorical game. And "we" let rhetoriticians like Thiel bullshit us all 
day every day.

I found this essay helpful:

Why I am not a liberal
https://sootyempiric.blogspot.com/2022/04/why-i-am-not-liberal.html


On 7/1/22 09:32, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Thiel's apparent solution, the dissolution of the administrative state has some 
in common with the urging to remove the filibuster.  End paralysis and force 
engagement.  The goals for the thinkers on the side of the Handmaid's tale or 
Al-Qaeda are texts that are not too long or complicated to convey.What are 
the concrete goals for the liberal agenda, other than to constantly negotiate 
and atomize?  He does have a point of wondering what the West is fighting for, 
other than to be taken care of.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 8:45 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

It may come as a surprise that I agree. >8^D There will be no *widespread* Enlightenment. 
We're limited to a mind-oligopoly. Whereas the intelligentsia of the right lean toward a 
philosopher dictator (e.g. Thiel's "Straussian Moment"), I lean toward a maximally 
sized thinking class. My inspiration is (up to my ignorance) biological. We specialize 
everything into niches. Why not specialize thought as well? Clearly, some of us are better 
at it than others.

The task, here, is to build an aggressive thinking class which rests on 
peri-altrustic values. What those values are and how they evolve is above my 
pay grade. But they are similar to those often attributed to the Enlightenment 
project (equivalence classes, freedom, do no harm, progress, justified true 
belief, etc.). And then pit that class against those who desire a singular 
benevolent dictator.

And that *war*, between those two groups of thinkers might be able to proceed 
with minimal suffering on the part of the non-thinkers, preferably through 
words and soft power as opposed to fire and blood.

But if "our" cognitively powerful people don't step up and take on the duty to out-think 
"their" cognitively powerful people, then you're right. Fire and blood it will be.


On 7/1/22 08:29, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I guess it will come as no surprise I think there will be no Enlightenment.   
There will be no civil debate.   A culture war is a war, and winning a war 
requires cruelty.   That's why the other side is winning.   They have their 
preferences, and they are pursuing them.   Liberals degenerate to too much 
reflection and inaction.  It's not going to be a win-win.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Marcus Daniels]

It may be necessary to let children be shot in schools.   There are so many 
people that are so afraid that Gates or Fauci or Soros (someone?) will tell 
them how to live, or because they fear the rage of the black man, etc. that 
they invest a significant fraction of their income into weapons and ammunition. 
  I don't see any reasoning with these people.  Something deep in their 
amygdala is wired wrong.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 11:04 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

IDK. That just sounds like laziness to me. "The West" is a fiction. We all know 
that. And it's irrelevant to the values aspired to by Egalitarianism or 
"Western Enlightenment", anyway. The actual trouble is that the egalitarians 
strawman each other and allow non-egalitarians to strawman them. A good example 
is the (false) identification of "equal" with "equality" or "equal opportunity" 
or whatever persnickety nonsense token the bullshitters poke at. The core ideas 
come from positive and negative freedoms. Freedom from being mugged when you 
walk down the street or being shot by an incel while studying math, polluted 
cities and rivers, etc. Freedom to buy a house, sell your kidney, ride your 
enduro through pristine forest, etc.

There's no "wondering" there. There's no lack of concreteness there. Children 
shouldn't be shot in schools. That's pretty concrete. Adults should be able to 
trace campaign contributions. That's concrete. It's all clear and fairly well 
laid out. The strawmanny pretense that it's vague is part of their rhetorical 
game. And "we" let rhetoriticians like Thiel bullshit us all day every day.

I found this essay helpful:

Why I am not a liberal
https://sootyempiric.blogspot.com/2022/04/why-i-am-not-liberal.html


On 7/1/22 09:32, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Thiel's apparent solution, the dissolution of the administrative state has 
> some in common with the urging to remove the filibuster.  End paralysis and 
> force engagement.  The goals for the thinkers on the side of the Handmaid's 
> tale or Al-Qaeda are texts that are not too long or complicated to convey.
> What are the concrete goals for the liberal agenda, other than to constantly 
> negotiate and atomize?  He does have a point of wondering what the West is 
> fighting for, other than to be taken care of.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 8:45 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care
> 
> It may come as a surprise that I agree. >8^D There will be no *widespread* 
> Enlightenment. We're limited to a mind-oligopoly. Whereas the intelligentsia 
> of the right lean toward a philosopher dictator (e.g. Thiel's "Straussian 
> Moment"), I lean toward a maximally sized thinking class. My inspiration is 
> (up to my ignorance) biological. We specialize everything into niches. Why 
> not specialize thought as well? Clearly, some of us are better at it than 
> others.
> 
> The task, here, is to build an aggressive thinking class which rests on 
> peri-altrustic values. What those values are and how they evolve is above my 
> pay grade. But they are similar to those often attributed to the 
> Enlightenment project (equivalence classes, freedom, do no harm, progress, 
> justified true belief, etc.). And then pit that class against those who 
> desire a singular benevolent dictator.
> 
> And that *war*, between those two groups of thinkers might be able to proceed 
> with minimal suffering on the part of the non-thinkers, preferably through 
> words and soft power as opposed to fire and blood.
> 
> But if "our" cognitively powerful people don't step up and take on the duty 
> to out-think "their" cognitively powerful people, then you're right. Fire and 
> blood it will be.
> 
> 
> On 7/1/22 08:29, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> I guess it will come as no surprise I think there will be no Enlightenment.  
>>  There will be no civil debate.   A culture war is a war, and winning a war 
>> requires cruelty.   That's why the other side is winning.   They have their 
>> preferences, and they are pursuing them.   Liberals degenerate to too much 
>> reflection and inaction.  It's not going to be a win-win.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
>> Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 1:35 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care
>>
>> The time for organized response has long passed. Voting Dem won't help much 
>> because of the antidemocratic senate, electoral college,  and scotus.
>>
>> But we do have some tac

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

IDK. That just sounds like laziness to me. "The West" is a fiction. We all know that. And it's irrelevant to the values 
aspired to by Egalitarianism or "Western Enlightenment", anyway. The actual trouble is that the egalitarians strawman 
each other and allow non-egalitarians to strawman them. A good example is the (false) identification of "equal" with 
"equality" or "equal opportunity" or whatever persnickety nonsense token the bullshitters poke at. The core 
ideas come from positive and negative freedoms. Freedom from being mugged when you walk down the street or being shot by an incel 
while studying math, polluted cities and rivers, etc. Freedom to buy a house, sell your kidney, ride your enduro through pristine 
forest, etc.

There's no "wondering" there. There's no lack of concreteness there. Children shouldn't 
be shot in schools. That's pretty concrete. Adults should be able to trace campaign contributions. 
That's concrete. It's all clear and fairly well laid out. The strawmanny pretense that it's vague 
is part of their rhetorical game. And "we" let rhetoriticians like Thiel bullshit us all 
day every day.

I found this essay helpful:

Why I am not a liberal
https://sootyempiric.blogspot.com/2022/04/why-i-am-not-liberal.html


On 7/1/22 09:32, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Thiel's apparent solution, the dissolution of the administrative state has some 
in common with the urging to remove the filibuster.  End paralysis and force 
engagement.  The goals for the thinkers on the side of the Handmaid's tale or 
Al-Qaeda are texts that are not too long or complicated to convey.What are 
the concrete goals for the liberal agenda, other than to constantly negotiate 
and atomize?  He does have a point of wondering what the West is fighting for, 
other than to be taken care of.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 8:45 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

It may come as a surprise that I agree. >8^D There will be no *widespread* Enlightenment. 
We're limited to a mind-oligopoly. Whereas the intelligentsia of the right lean toward a 
philosopher dictator (e.g. Thiel's "Straussian Moment"), I lean toward a maximally 
sized thinking class. My inspiration is (up to my ignorance) biological. We specialize 
everything into niches. Why not specialize thought as well? Clearly, some of us are better 
at it than others.

The task, here, is to build an aggressive thinking class which rests on 
peri-altrustic values. What those values are and how they evolve is above my 
pay grade. But they are similar to those often attributed to the Enlightenment 
project (equivalence classes, freedom, do no harm, progress, justified true 
belief, etc.). And then pit that class against those who desire a singular 
benevolent dictator.

And that *war*, between those two groups of thinkers might be able to proceed 
with minimal suffering on the part of the non-thinkers, preferably through 
words and soft power as opposed to fire and blood.

But if "our" cognitively powerful people don't step up and take on the duty to out-think 
"their" cognitively powerful people, then you're right. Fire and blood it will be.


On 7/1/22 08:29, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I guess it will come as no surprise I think there will be no Enlightenment.   
There will be no civil debate.   A culture war is a war, and winning a war 
requires cruelty.   That's why the other side is winning.   They have their 
preferences, and they are pursuing them.   Liberals degenerate to too much 
reflection and inaction.  It's not going to be a win-win.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 1:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

The time for organized response has long passed. Voting Dem won't help much 
because of the antidemocratic senate, electoral college,  and scotus.

But we do have some tactical responses in place like the ACLU and such. They're 
just not strategic enough.

The depth of organization on the right seems to outstrip that of the left, 
despite the superficial distraction of the altright neoreactionaries and 
empty-headed 'deplorables'. Orgs like the Federalists have been planning and 
strategizing for decades while the Enlightenment project languishes in neglect.

Those of us NOT actively working on the "how we do that" part bear as much 
blame for the cruelty as the cruel, themselves. I'm as guilty as any dork, finding it 
much easier to plunge my head into the sand that is my tiny, largely irrelevant subdomain 
where I'm warm and comfy. But the dorks need to pull their heads out and work 
strategically on the political problem staring us in the face.

Getting to THAT shared value is a prerequsite to an effective long term 
strategy.


On June 30, 2022 9:33:34 PM PDT, Marc

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Marcus Daniels]

Thiel's apparent solution, the dissolution of the administrative state has some 
in common with the urging to remove the filibuster.  End paralysis and force 
engagement.  The goals for the thinkers on the side of the Handmaid's tale or 
Al-Qaeda are texts that are not too long or complicated to convey.What are 
the concrete goals for the liberal agenda, other than to constantly negotiate 
and atomize?  He does have a point of wondering what the West is fighting for, 
other than to be taken care of.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 8:45 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

It may come as a surprise that I agree. >8^D There will be no *widespread* 
Enlightenment. We're limited to a mind-oligopoly. Whereas the intelligentsia of 
the right lean toward a philosopher dictator (e.g. Thiel's "Straussian 
Moment"), I lean toward a maximally sized thinking class. My inspiration is (up 
to my ignorance) biological. We specialize everything into niches. Why not 
specialize thought as well? Clearly, some of us are better at it than others.

The task, here, is to build an aggressive thinking class which rests on 
peri-altrustic values. What those values are and how they evolve is above my 
pay grade. But they are similar to those often attributed to the Enlightenment 
project (equivalence classes, freedom, do no harm, progress, justified true 
belief, etc.). And then pit that class against those who desire a singular 
benevolent dictator.

And that *war*, between those two groups of thinkers might be able to proceed 
with minimal suffering on the part of the non-thinkers, preferably through 
words and soft power as opposed to fire and blood.

But if "our" cognitively powerful people don't step up and take on the duty to 
out-think "their" cognitively powerful people, then you're right. Fire and 
blood it will be.


On 7/1/22 08:29, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I guess it will come as no surprise I think there will be no Enlightenment.   
> There will be no civil debate.   A culture war is a war, and winning a war 
> requires cruelty.   That's why the other side is winning.   They have their 
> preferences, and they are pursuing them.   Liberals degenerate to too much 
> reflection and inaction.  It's not going to be a win-win.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 1:35 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care
> 
> The time for organized response has long passed. Voting Dem won't help much 
> because of the antidemocratic senate, electoral college,  and scotus.
> 
> But we do have some tactical responses in place like the ACLU and such. 
> They're just not strategic enough.
> 
> The depth of organization on the right seems to outstrip that of the left, 
> despite the superficial distraction of the altright neoreactionaries and 
> empty-headed 'deplorables'. Orgs like the Federalists have been planning and 
> strategizing for decades while the Enlightenment project languishes in 
> neglect.
> 
> Those of us NOT actively working on the "how we do that" part bear as much 
> blame for the cruelty as the cruel, themselves. I'm as guilty as any dork, 
> finding it much easier to plunge my head into the sand that is my tiny, 
> largely irrelevant subdomain where I'm warm and comfy. But the dorks need to 
> pull their heads out and work strategically on the political problem staring 
> us in the face.
> 
> Getting to THAT shared value is a prerequsite to an effective long term 
> strategy.
> 
> 
> On June 30, 2022 9:33:34 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>> First, a nap!
>>
>> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn0853
>>
>>
>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:56 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I'm hoping that there is an overwhelming response by young people to vote 
>> Democrat in the upcoming elections.  Traditionally young people haven't 
>> voted in the numbers you'd expect.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 6:41 PM David Eric Smith 
>> mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
>> Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now fully 
>> found and asserted its identity.
>>
>> I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need an 
>> organized response, and how we do that.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Roger Critchlow 
>> mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
>>
>> And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[glen]

It may come as a surprise that I agree. >8^D There will be no *widespread* Enlightenment. 
We're limited to a mind-oligopoly. Whereas the intelligentsia of the right lean toward a 
philosopher dictator (e.g. Thiel's "Straussian Moment"), I lean toward a maximally 
sized thinking class. My inspiration is (up to my ignorance) biological. We specialize 
everything into niches. Why not specialize thought as well? Clearly, some of us are better 
at it than others.

The task, here, is to build an aggressive thinking class which rests on 
peri-altrustic values. What those values are and how they evolve is above my 
pay grade. But they are similar to those often attributed to the Enlightenment 
project (equivalence classes, freedom, do no harm, progress, justified true 
belief, etc.). And then pit that class against those who desire a singular 
benevolent dictator.

And that *war*, between those two groups of thinkers might be able to proceed 
with minimal suffering on the part of the non-thinkers, preferably through 
words and soft power as opposed to fire and blood.

But if "our" cognitively powerful people don't step up and take on the duty to out-think 
"their" cognitively powerful people, then you're right. Fire and blood it will be.


On 7/1/22 08:29, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I guess it will come as no surprise I think there will be no Enlightenment.   
There will be no civil debate.   A culture war is a war, and winning a war 
requires cruelty.   That's why the other side is winning.   They have their 
preferences, and they are pursuing them.   Liberals degenerate to too much 
reflection and inaction.  It's not going to be a win-win.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 1:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

The time for organized response has long passed. Voting Dem won't help much 
because of the antidemocratic senate, electoral college,  and scotus.

But we do have some tactical responses in place like the ACLU and such. They're 
just not strategic enough.

The depth of organization on the right seems to outstrip that of the left, 
despite the superficial distraction of the altright neoreactionaries and 
empty-headed 'deplorables'. Orgs like the Federalists have been planning and 
strategizing for decades while the Enlightenment project languishes in neglect.

Those of us NOT actively working on the "how we do that" part bear as much 
blame for the cruelty as the cruel, themselves. I'm as guilty as any dork, finding it 
much easier to plunge my head into the sand that is my tiny, largely irrelevant subdomain 
where I'm warm and comfy. But the dorks need to pull their heads out and work 
strategically on the political problem staring us in the face.

Getting to THAT shared value is a prerequsite to an effective long term 
strategy.


On June 30, 2022 9:33:34 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

First, a nap!

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn0853


On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:56 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:


I'm hoping that there is an overwhelming response by young people to vote 
Democrat in the upcoming elections.  Traditionally young people haven't voted 
in the numbers you'd expect.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 6:41 PM David Eric Smith 
mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now fully 
found and asserted its identity.

I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need an 
organized response, and how we do that.

Eric



On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Roger Critchlow mailto:r...@elf.org>> 
wrote:

And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas bounty hunter law for catching 
people who cross state lines for forbidden practices.

-- rec --

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:12 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a VPN.   
When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their self-administered medical 
procedures like this, only those on the coasts will get answers, whereas the 
s**thole states will require these services be blocked.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: [FRIAM] self-care

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in my 
feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fjewishcurrents.org%2fhow-to-give-yourself-an-abortion=E,1,-Zhst6g-QuPY81edlf5guSgQZYWNBDtKv-dBpsl270nvAgGGtae69BEi6B5aBys3TXw8Qrfjnw9C54JCGo7OUuFmFQpqvGQdE4H0OpbwhUY120PDbMU,=1>

I remain torn on the issue of s

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Marcus Daniels]

I guess it will come as no surprise I think there will be no Enlightenment.   
There will be no civil debate.   A culture war is a war, and winning a war 
requires cruelty.   That's why the other side is winning.   They have their 
preferences, and they are pursuing them.   Liberals degenerate to too much 
reflection and inaction.  It's not going to be a win-win.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Friday, July 1, 2022 1:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

The time for organized response has long passed. Voting Dem won't help much 
because of the antidemocratic senate, electoral college,  and scotus.

But we do have some tactical responses in place like the ACLU and such. They're 
just not strategic enough. 

The depth of organization on the right seems to outstrip that of the left, 
despite the superficial distraction of the altright neoreactionaries and 
empty-headed 'deplorables'. Orgs like the Federalists have been planning and 
strategizing for decades while the Enlightenment project languishes in neglect.

Those of us NOT actively working on the "how we do that" part bear as much 
blame for the cruelty as the cruel, themselves. I'm as guilty as any dork, 
finding it much easier to plunge my head into the sand that is my tiny, largely 
irrelevant subdomain where I'm warm and comfy. But the dorks need to pull their 
heads out and work strategically on the political problem staring us in the 
face.

Getting to THAT shared value is a prerequsite to an effective long term 
strategy.


On June 30, 2022 9:33:34 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>First, a nap!
>
>https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn0853
>
>
>On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:56 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>
>I'm hoping that there is an overwhelming response by young people to vote 
>Democrat in the upcoming elections.  Traditionally young people haven't voted 
>in the numbers you'd expect.
>
>---
>Frank C. Wimberly
>140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>505 670-9918
>Santa Fe, NM
>
>On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 6:41 PM David Eric Smith 
>mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
>Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now fully 
>found and asserted its identity.
>
>I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need an 
>organized response, and how we do that.
>
>Eric
>
>
>
>On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Roger Critchlow 
>mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
>
>And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas bounty hunter law for catching 
>people who cross state lines for forbidden practices.
>
>-- rec --
>
>On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:12 PM Marcus Daniels 
>mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a VPN.   
>When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their self-administered 
>medical procedures like this, only those on the coasts will get answers, 
>whereas the s**thole states will require these services be blocked.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
>Behalf Of glen
>Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
>To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
>Subject: [FRIAM] self-care
>
>In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in 
>my feed:
>
>How to Give Yourself an Abortion
>https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fjewishcurrents.org%2fhow-to-give-yourself-an-abortion=E,1,-Zhst6g-QuPY81edlf5guSgQZYWNBDtKv-dBpsl270nvAgGGtae69BEi6B5aBys3TXw8Qrfjnw9C54JCGo7OUuFmFQpqvGQdE4H0OpbwhUY120PDbMU,=1>
>
>I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my 
>oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm 
>poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people 
>who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up 
>this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after 
>surgery: 
>https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fcenterforinquiry.salsalabs.org%2f2022cfimidyearemailversion11=E,1,2-tYnySplBvRbyAEZY0KK5_SNRCghwoq9MmOb6g5eMt9G2A_oGrBmm9E1TaU7yvGTUKGOPabsgE4XOSxdStdMKcxT0twCXUSsGHdzEdo=1>.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
>Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And 
>while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out. 
>*Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even 
>mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[⛧ glen]

The time for organized response has long passed. Voting Dem won't help much 
because of the antidemocratic senate, electoral college,  and scotus.

But we do have some tactical responses in place like the ACLU and such. They're 
just not strategic enough. 

The depth of organization on the right seems to outstrip that of the left, 
despite the superficial distraction of the altright neoreactionaries and 
empty-headed 'deplorables'. Orgs like the Federalists have been planning and 
strategizing for decades while the Enlightenment project languishes in neglect.

Those of us NOT actively working on the "how we do that" part bear as much 
blame for the cruelty as the cruel, themselves. I'm as guilty as any dork, 
finding it much easier to plunge my head into the sand that is my tiny, largely 
irrelevant subdomain where I'm warm and comfy. But the dorks need to pull their 
heads out and work strategically on the political problem staring us in the 
face.

Getting to THAT shared value is a prerequsite to an effective long term 
strategy.


On June 30, 2022 9:33:34 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>First, a nap!
>
>https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn0853
>
>
>On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:56 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>
>I'm hoping that there is an overwhelming response by young people to vote 
>Democrat in the upcoming elections.  Traditionally young people haven't voted 
>in the numbers you'd expect.
>
>---
>Frank C. Wimberly
>140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>505 670-9918
>Santa Fe, NM
>
>On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 6:41 PM David Eric Smith 
>mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
>Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now fully 
>found and asserted its identity.
>
>I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need an 
>organized response, and how we do that.
>
>Eric
>
>
>
>On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Roger Critchlow 
>mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
>
>And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas bounty hunter law for catching 
>people who cross state lines for forbidden practices.
>
>-- rec --
>
>On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:12 PM Marcus Daniels 
>mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a VPN.   
>When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their self-administered 
>medical procedures like this, only those on the coasts will get answers, 
>whereas the s**thole states will require these services be blocked.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
>Behalf Of glen
>Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
>To: friam@redfish.com
>Subject: [FRIAM] self-care
>
>In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in 
>my feed:
>
>How to Give Yourself an Abortion
>https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
>
>I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my 
>oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm 
>poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people 
>who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up 
>this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after 
>surgery: 
>https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
>Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And 
>while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out. 
>*Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even 
>mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the 
>excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back? Despite my 
>sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? 
>Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints 
>without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
>hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the 
>inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event would topple 
>me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation 
>concept, at worst a malinformation concept: 

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Marcus Daniels]

First, a nap!

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn0853


On Jun 30, 2022, at 5:56 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:


I'm hoping that there is an overwhelming response by young people to vote 
Democrat in the upcoming elections.  Traditionally young people haven't voted 
in the numbers you'd expect.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 6:41 PM David Eric Smith 
mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now fully 
found and asserted its identity.

I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need an 
organized response, and how we do that.

Eric



On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Roger Critchlow mailto:r...@elf.org>> 
wrote:

And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas bounty hunter law for catching 
people who cross state lines for forbidden practices.

-- rec --

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:12 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a VPN.   
When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their self-administered medical 
procedures like this, only those on the coasts will get answers, whereas the 
s**thole states will require these services be blocked.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] self-care

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in my 
feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion

I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my 
oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm 
poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people 
who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up 
this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after 
surgery: 
https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11.
 (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)

Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while 
it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* 
amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? 
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the 
excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back? Despite my 
sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? 
Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints 
without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the 
inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event would topple 
me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation concept, 
at worst a malinformation concept: 
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf

Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting 
out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled 
water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all 
point at that thing, whatever that thing is.

In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.

--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe 

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm hoping that there is an overwhelming response by young people to vote
Democrat in the upcoming elections.  Traditionally young people haven't
voted in the numbers you'd expect.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022, 6:41 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> Yeah, the theme of performative cruelty as a social movement has now fully
> found and asserted its identity.
>
> I wonder when the rest of us decide this is enough of a threat to need an
> organized response, and how we do that.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:17 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
> And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas bounty hunter law for
> catching people who cross state lines for forbidden practices.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:12 PM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a
>> VPN.   When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their
>> self-administered medical procedures like this, only those on the coasts
>> will get answers, whereas the s**thole states will require these services
>> be blocked.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: [FRIAM] self-care
>>
>> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up
>> in my feed:
>>
>> How to Give Yourself an Abortion
>> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
>> 
>>
>> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to
>> my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes,
>> I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the
>> people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post
>> came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient
>> after surgery:
>> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11
>> .
>> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>>
>> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And
>> while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out.
>> *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even
>> mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite
>> the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
>> Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
>> follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups,
>> shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job
>> with a bit of time for hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't
>> reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the
>> slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy"
>> is at best a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:
>> https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>> 
>>
>> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books,
>> cutting out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering
>> veterinary de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad
>> diets, bottled water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral
>> failure, etc. all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>>
>> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.
>>
>> --
>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> 
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> 

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Roger Critchlow]

And they're discussing how to adapt the Texas bounty hunter law for
catching people who cross state lines for forbidden practices.

-- rec --

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:12 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a VPN.
>  When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their self-administered
> medical procedures like this, only those on the coasts will get answers,
> whereas the s**thole states will require these services be blocked.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] self-care
>
> In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up
> in my feed:
>
> How to Give Yourself an Abortion
> https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion
>
> I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to
> my oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes,
> I'm poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the
> people who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post
> came up this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient
> after surgery:
> https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11.
> (Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)
>
> Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And
> while it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out.
> *Who* amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even
> mean? That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite
> the excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back?
> Despite my sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated
> follicular lymphoma? Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups,
> shovel dirt, drink 5 pints without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job
> with a bit of time for hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't
> reflect what I feel on the inside, which is like a sick puppy where the
> slightest bad event would topple me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy"
> is at best a misinformation concept, at worst a malinformation concept:
> https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf
>
> Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books,
> cutting out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering
> veterinary de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad
> diets, bottled water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral
> failure, etc. all point at that thing, whatever that thing is.
>
> In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[Marcus Daniels]

I can see it now.   Netflix and others won't let me watch when I'm a VPN.   
When folks ask the AI bot for contingencies for their self-administered medical 
procedures like this, only those on the coasts will get answers, whereas the 
s**thole states will require these services be blocked.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2022 8:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] self-care

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in my 
feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion

I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my 
oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm 
poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people 
who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up 
this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after 
surgery: https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11. 
(Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)

Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while 
it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* 
amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? 
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the 
excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back? Despite my 
sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? 
Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints 
without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the 
inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event would topple 
me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation concept, 
at worst a malinformation concept: 
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf

Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting 
out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled 
water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all 
point at that thing, whatever that thing is.

In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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