RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Good morning, Salvador. I hope the new day in Mexico City dawned sunny and bright for you. I'm jumping into this discussion to comment on the subject of choice, as it has evolved over the last few days, about women's dress in Muslim countries. It seems to me that given a choice, many faithful Islamic women would choose to wear less restrictive clothing but might do so in appropriately graduated ways that 1) would accommodate the newness of their ability to exercise a choice and 2) as they and their families become more comfortable with it. However, I would not think this would happen quickly. There is still great fear and distrust, I've read, among Afghani women about going without their burkhas in public. Even though the structural Taliban are gone, suffocating attitudes remain, as more liberated western women can understand. Perhaps someday there will be more individual choices for Islamic women so that their manner of dress does not become a religious quantifier or a cultural condition. In post-war Japan, the victorious Americans instituted changes that created structural and social opportunities for women, but which took a long time to take root within society. Japan today is still a very restrictive place for Japanese women, by western standards, although their fashion choices are no less global than American or European women. I agree with Arthur Cordell, who said in an earlier conversation that a war of civilizations may already be underway, but it is likely to be a war between fundamentalists and modernists. This said, it seems that a revolution to free Islamic women and their sons and daughters of a new generation, will only be successful from within - which would require a revolutionized educational and economic system to support choices and individual expression. No doubt the descendents of the great Muslim civilizations of the past would in short order be making great contributions once again on the global stage as well as reinvigorating their own societies. I guess the Fashion Police were right, after all. We still make broad assumptions about people individually and in groups by the clothing they wear. I for the life of me can't understand why a big bellied man wears narrow hipped jeans or trousers that in no way cover his abdomen. Indeed some of these contrived outfits push up and balloon his middle, so that I conclude, perhaps erroneously, that he is also narrow in thought, refusing to acknowledge a growing reality and make changes in life as we all do on myriad things. I am disappointed that this conversation on women's choices or lack of them has not attracted other female responses on FW, but I have enjoyed the conversation between educated and thoughtful western males, sometimes with great amusement. And that, my friends, is an early conversation before coffee, which I go now to correct. Hopefully, I will see the dawn come up shortly with a hot cup in hand and enjoy a serene moment. - Karen Watters Cole -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Salvador R. Sánchez Gutiérrez Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Lawrence, thank you very much for your kind reply. [...] By the way, are there significant differences between western males and eastern males, or western females, in terms of certainty? Is the answer a certainty itself? I focused on western males because we were talking a Muslim and female practices of dress. I do suspect that on other issues, we would find western females, and eastern males and females full of their own (blind and ignorant) certainties. I suupose that it is an age-old practice of all cultures to assert how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. It just saddens me to see this unfortunate pattern repeat itself here on this wonderful Internet. I have just come from a three-day seminar with a dozen founders of personal computers, the Internet, and the World-Wide Web. Their hope has been that these technologies would enable us to build a better world. It is dispiriting to find medieval hubris creeping in, even here. Ethnocentrism? It seems to be a tendency to hide behind our narrowest beliefs, customs and practices looking for shelter against the dangers (real or imaginary) inherent to the globalization processes. I think that the positive effects of Internet in this sort of things will be seen in ten years or more, when our children have voice. I think more or less the same way as Christoph Reuss regarding nuns habit and choice. And I am also a western male. And what is your thought and experience with covered Muslim women? If it is possible for nuns to choose their concealing clothing (and Catholic women generally to do so when they enter a church), might it not also be the case that Muslim women make such a choice? I can not make a clear
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
I wonder if not having to wear a burka can be considered a human right. In any case, as was repeatedly stated here and elsewhere, burka's were the normal attire of countryside women in large parts of Afghanistan, especially Pashtunistan. Women wore it before the Soviet invasion, during and after, but it was not legally prescribed. Taliban enforced it on all women, but now they have gone, this doesn't have to mean all women would nor should take them off, and the fact women are still wearing them has no connection to the possible remaining influence of the taliban. I have no doubt those people, who think they do Afghani women a favor by trying to 'liberate' them from the outside mean well. But some disasters are wrought by the well meaning. No doubt the communist regime meant to do well for the equality of male and female by abolishing the dowry practice; only it wasn't accepted by the majority of the population that just wasn't ready for it, it was considered an attack on their culture, tradition and religion and it directly led to the anti-Soviet uprising and the real start of the war. So maybe some things need time. If you want to force them, they boomerang back and have the opposite effect, as the taliban repression could never have happened without the communist meddling in the first place. I hope this opinion doesn't make me a bad human rights activist? Jan Matthieu -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Namens Christoph Reuss Verzonden: donderdag 15 augustus 2002 16:14 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Lawry de Bivort wrote: You reveak your ignorance, Chris: not permitted to talk to a burka'ed woman? This shows how little you know... Are you saying that sources like the following are wrong ? http://www.purpleberets.org/international_gender_apartheid.html Afghan women ... * Are forbidden to ... talk or shake hands with men outside their families. ... * Are forbidden to laugh or talk loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice.) As I said, if anyone wants any advice on how to do this, I would provide it. Why don't you simply provide it, instead of spouting empty polemics and playing childish games of I know but I don't tell you. Simply say what you know, and try to reduce your polemics-to-facts ratio. What hubris to assert that you, the great Chris, merely need to make up your mind to know everything, and that the poor fools whose experience you seek to interpret or explain are too ignorant to be even worth-while asking! It is not so much your ignorance I find appalling, Chris, but your steadfast determination to learn nothing. Worse than empty polemics, you have to resort to misrepresenting my case, in order to make your alleged point. Actually, I did NOT suggest that the 'objects' of social studies shouldn't be asked. What I suggested was to take backgrounds and victimological knowledge into account when assessing their replies. Your replies to my suggestion show _your_ determination to learn nothing. Worse, by choosing to remain ignorant about the backgrounds (and even attacking those who reveal these backgrounds), you end up being accomplice to the oppressors of Muslim women. Chris (a white western male who thinks that human rights should apply to non-white non-western females too)
Re: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
- Original Message - From: jan matthieu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 9:48 AM I wonder if not having to wear a burka can be considered a human right. I would say that NOT HAVING TO wear it SHOULD BE considered a human right. In any case, as was repeatedly stated here and elsewhere, burka's were the normal attire of countryside women in large parts of Afghanistan, especially Pashtunistan. Women wore it before the Soviet invasion, during and after, but it was not legally prescribed. Taliban enforced it on all women, but now they have gone, this doesn't have to mean all women would nor should take them off, and the fact women are still wearing them has no connection to the possible remaining influence of the taliban. Burkas are a cultural artifacts associated with tradition, not a taliban idea, and it makes even more dificult for these Muslim women to choose. We must aware to avoid a very common confusion: a cultural product is not necessarily good by itself. And freedom of choice, at least in this kind of issues, should not be restricted by tradition of culture. I have no doubt those people, who think they do Afghani women a favor by trying to 'liberate' them from the outside mean well. But some disasters are wrought by the well meaning. No doubt the communist regime meant to do well for the equality of male and female by abolishing the dowry practice; only it wasn't accepted by the majority of the population that just wasn't ready for it, it was considered an attack on their culture, tradition and religion and it directly led to the anti-Soviet uprising and the real start of the war. Of course nobody has the right to impose others what he/she considers good (americans and catholics tend to forget it, as history clearly shows), except when there are serious threats like illness or violations to human rights (like selling the daughters). I agree with Jan and also with Karen Watters, who said that change must be gradual. So maybe some things need time. If you want to force them, they boomerang back and have the opposite effect, as the taliban repression could never have happened without the communist meddling in the first place. I hope this opinion doesn't make me a bad human rights activist? Jan Matthieu As Karen said, it's a question between fundamentalism (archaism?) and modernism. Clothing is not a trivial issue, it is an individual manifestation of identity and belonging but also a display of social traits, practices and customs. Freedom to manage our own personal appearance is a right associated with modernism. If it is good for me, I should defend this right for anybody else. By the way, my own portable prison, five days a week, is a jacket and a tie. At least I have some degree of freedom choosing colors. Greetings from the rainy, cloudy and fresh Mexico City. Salvador Sanchez
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Chris, Lawry de Bivort wrote: You reveak your ignorance, Chris: not permitted to talk to a burka'ed woman? This shows how little you know... Are you saying that sources like the following are wrong ? http://www.purpleberets.org/international_gender_apartheid.html Afghan women ... * Are forbidden to ... talk or shake hands with men outside their families. ... * Are forbidden to laugh or talk loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice.) I haven't looked at this site, but the substance of the quotes I assume you took from it are, as they pertain to Muslim women, wrong. As I said, if anyone wants any advice on how to do this, I would provide it. Why don't you simply provide it, Because it will be individual-, motive-, communication skill-, and location- specific. I have discussed this with the two members of this list who have privately queried me, and will do so with anyone else who is interested. instead of spouting empty polemics and playing childish games of I know but I don't tell you. Please re-read my emails on this before posting such nonsense. Simply say what you know, and try to reduce your polemics-to-facts ratio. Polemic, Chris, is a one-sided exagerrated often political rant. You are the only one on this list who actually does use a polemic style. What you are referring to, in my writing, is not polemic but direct criticism -- of you. This may to you be a distinction without a difference. Tough. What hubris to assert that you, the great Chris, merely need to make up your mind to know everything, and that the poor fools whose experience you seek to interpret or explain are too ignorant to be even worth-while asking! It is not so much your ignorance I find appalling, Chris, but your steadfast determination to learn nothing. Worse than empty polemics, you have to resort to misrepresenting my case, in order to make your alleged point. Actually, I did NOT suggest that the 'objects' of social studies shouldn't be asked. What I suggested was to take backgrounds and victimological knowledge into account when assessing their replies. Then, I repeat, why don't you start actually asking the people upon whom you pass such easy and ignorant judgement? After you have done so, you then can use your vast knowledge of 'victimology' to your heart's content. As I said some months ago, Chris, I do not wish to spend any of my time trying to educate you. I engage in this otherwise silly conversation with you as it illustrates the theme that I am discussing: cultural blinders and the hubris of certainty. I believe the point has been amply demonstrated, and anticipate further discussion with you only if you manage to say something new AND intersting.
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Arthur, I'll follow-up with you off-line. In case I missed any response to my offer in the flurry of emails these last couple of days, please email me directly regarding how to get in touch with real people (Muslim women and Hassidic Jews mentioned specically), if we are not already in such discussion. Best regards, Lawry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 7:56 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) I am with Chris on this one. So, Lawry how does one approach a burka'd woman or chassidic male and ask about how they see themselves and their approach to life?? arthur -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Lawry de Bivort wrote: You reveak your ignorance, Chris: not permitted to talk to a burka'ed woman? This shows how little you know... Are you saying that sources like the following are wrong ? http://www.purpleberets.org/international_gender_apartheid.html Afghan women ... * Are forbidden to ... talk or shake hands with men outside their families. ... * Are forbidden to laugh or talk loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice.) As I said, if anyone wants any advice on how to do this, I would provide it. Why don't you simply provide it, instead of spouting empty polemics and playing childish games of I know but I don't tell you. Simply say what you know, and try to reduce your polemics-to-facts ratio. What hubris to assert that you, the great Chris, merely need to make up your mind to know everything, and that the poor fools whose experience you seek to interpret or explain are too ignorant to be even worth-while asking! It is not so much your ignorance I find appalling, Chris, but your steadfast determination to learn nothing. Worse than empty polemics, you have to resort to misrepresenting my case, in order to make your alleged point. Actually, I did NOT suggest that the 'objects' of social studies shouldn't be asked. What I suggested was to take backgrounds and victimological knowledge into account when assessing their replies. Your replies to my suggestion show _your_ determination to learn nothing. Worse, by choosing to remain ignorant about the backgrounds (and even attacking those who reveal these backgrounds), you end up being accomplice to the oppressors of Muslim women. Chris (a white western male who thinks that human rights should apply to non-white non-western females too)
Re: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Salvador R. Sánchez Gutiérrez wrote: [snip] As Karen said, it's a question between fundamentalism (archaism?) and modernism. Clothing is not a trivial issue, it is an individual manifestation of identity and belonging but also a display of social traits, practices and customs. Freedom to manage our own personal appearance is a right associated with modernism. If it is good for me, I should defend this right for anybody else. By the way, my own portable prison, five days a week, is a jacket and a tie. At least I have some degree of freedom choosing colors. Greetings from the rainy, cloudy and fresh Mexico City. Salvador Sanchez True story from IBM Research, where in the 1980s the employees normally dressed casually. A friend of mine transferred from sales to research and showed up at work in his 3-piece suit. One of the researchers admonished him for not dressing appropriately. He responded: You mean I can't dress the way *I* want to here? Another item: If we free women in traditional societies from burqas and genital mutilation, etc., the result -- if we do not help the people restructure their society, may well be either that the individual woman becomes a pariah and either a prostitute or worse, or else the society as a whole falls apart. --Sort of like the way Ronald Reagan freed the Russian people from communism. Different and more hopeful item: The NYT ran an article a few years ago about one African tribe where the elders got together and decided to take an inventory of their customs and to discard the ones that were no longer useful -- like genital mutilation. We in New York City should be so advanced! \brad mccormick -- Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (Matt 5:16) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thes 5:21) ![%THINK;[SGML+APL]] Brad McCormick, Ed.D. / [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Visit my website == http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Well,it is a delight to see another white western male so knowledgeable about these matters. So, to my rapidly expanding list of questionees, I ask Chris: Have YOU EVER talked with a veiled/covered/burka'ed Muslim women about these matters? And, have you ever talked with a Catholic covered woman, nun (or monk, for that matter) about these matters? If the answer is 'no,' Chris, I suggest you do so before pronouncing yourself with such absolutist vehemance on these matters. I know that you have a penchant for denying the validity of what anyone says (including Muslim women) that contradicts your firmly-held views of the world, but your dismissal of what the very people you are making your judgments about say about their own experience of life, is risable. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christoph Reuss Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Lawry deBivort wrote: Have you ever asked a nun or a catholic woman whether they feel oppressed when they wear 'habit' or cover themselves? Becoming a nun or being/remaining a catholic is a _choice_. Getting born in Afghanistan is _not_ a choice (and staying there often isn't a choice either). So the former group is much more likely to like their dressing code. In statistics it's called self-selection. Barbara Walters did a special on women in Saudi Arabia, and focused, as she would, on the veil. Among the five women she interviewed, several were pro-veil. But this is just another anecdote... Few victims want to admit that they are being victimized, especially if they have been brainwashed all their life, and if they know that their statement is public (and can be heard by their oppressors, who then might take action against the whistleblowers). Some sort of Stockholm syndrome... So, when several were pro-veil, does that mean that they _really_like_ the burqa (which BTW is much more than a veil) ? Of course not! Chris
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Yesterday I went out at lunch while thinking about these exchanges on Futurework. It is very hot in Ottawa at this time and women are dressed in a wide variety of ways. Lots of fashion. Lots of glitz. I noticed a Moslem women with the burka. She seemed to be looking at the ways in which the other women were dressed. I noticed interest not revulsion in her expression. As you would say, anecdotal. The issue is choice. I really don't have to TALK to a burda'ed Muslim woman to know that they lack choice. arthur -Original Message- From: Lawrence de Bivort [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:31 PM To: Christoph Reuss; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Well,it is a delight to see another white western male so knowledgeable about these matters. So, to my rapidly expanding list of questionees, I ask Chris: Have YOU EVER talked with a veiled/covered/burka'ed Muslim women about these matters? And, have you ever talked with a Catholic covered woman, nun (or monk, for that matter) about these matters? If the answer is 'no,' Chris, I suggest you do so before pronouncing yourself with such absolutist vehemance on these matters. I know that you have a penchant for denying the validity of what anyone says (including Muslim women) that contradicts your firmly-held views of the world, but your dismissal of what the very people you are making your judgments about say about their own experience of life, is risable. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Christoph Reuss Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Lawry deBivort wrote: Have you ever asked a nun or a catholic woman whether they feel oppressed when they wear 'habit' or cover themselves? Becoming a nun or being/remaining a catholic is a _choice_. Getting born in Afghanistan is _not_ a choice (and staying there often isn't a choice either). So the former group is much more likely to like their dressing code. In statistics it's called self-selection. Barbara Walters did a special on women in Saudi Arabia, and focused, as she would, on the veil. Among the five women she interviewed, several were pro-veil. But this is just another anecdote... Few victims want to admit that they are being victimized, especially if they have been brainwashed all their life, and if they know that their statement is public (and can be heard by their oppressors, who then might take action against the whistleblowers). Some sort of Stockholm syndrome... So, when several were pro-veil, does that mean that they _really_like_ the burqa (which BTW is much more than a veil) ? Of course not! Chris
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Well, Arthur, it is that assumption, precisely, that I am challenging. How would you know you don't have to talk to any of them? How in the world can you be so certain, except by simply (and possibly blindly) 'being certain'. It is, I would suggest, an untested and hence unmerited certainty. If you are willing to pay attention to her eyes (and read so much into them!) why not go a step further and actually, gulp, converse with the/a real person? Why, why, why have western males become so certain of their certainty? It boggles my mind how much that is fundamental importance we western males don't know, and don't know that we don't know. What in the world do you do with the Muslim women in the US (and I assume Canada) who are deciding now to cover themselves, or even wear a veil? Or have you decided that they are all being forced to do so, or are simply stupid and deluded? I do think you can only figure this out by asking Why so resist the idea of doing so? By the way, it occurred to me that many of those on this list might not know _how_ to go about having such talks. If this is the case, please let me know and I'll give you a couple of easy-to-implement ideas. Best regards, Lawry The issue is choice. I really don't have to TALK to a burda'ed Muslim woman to know that they lack choice.
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Are you challenging the notion of choice? -Original Message- From: Lawrence de Bivort [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Well, Arthur, it is that assumption, precisely, that I am challenging. How would you know you don't have to talk to any of them? How in the world can you be so certain, except by simply (and possibly blindly) 'being certain'. It is, I would suggest, an untested and hence unmerited certainty. If you are willing to pay attention to her eyes (and read so much into them!) why not go a step further and actually, gulp, converse with the/a real person? Why, why, why have western males become so certain of their certainty? It boggles my mind how much that is fundamental importance we western males don't know, and don't know that we don't know. What in the world do you do with the Muslim women in the US (and I assume Canada) who are deciding now to cover themselves, or even wear a veil? Or have you decided that they are all being forced to do so, or are simply stupid and deluded? I do think you can only figure this out by asking Why so resist the idea of doing so? By the way, it occurred to me that many of those on this list might not know _how_ to go about having such talks. If this is the case, please let me know and I'll give you a couple of easy-to-implement ideas. Best regards, Lawry The issue is choice. I really don't have to TALK to a burda'ed Muslim woman to know that they lack choice.
Re: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Lawry, you have completely missed my point: That there's much more to social science than simply asking victims whether they _feel_ victimized. That's like asking a SUV driver whether he feels safe, and when Bubba says Yea, then conclude that SUVs _are_ safe. It just ain't that simple, Lawry. If it was, we could abolish social science -- after all, any roadsweeper can go around asking people how they feel. Your repeated question whether I ever talked to a nun (yes I did) shows that you didn't understand the concept of self-selection either. Btw, your advice to _ask_ burka'ed Muslim women, is a bit funny. Don't you know that they aren't allowed to talk to male foreigners? Heaven forbid! (Hmmm... this opens the question what kind of women you were talking with) Chris
Re: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Lawrence: I am not an English speaking person, as I guess you know. My knowledge of your language is very limited. That's why I am curious about the meaning of an expresion you use recurrently and (I guess) in a pejorative sense: western male. I thought that Lawrence is a male name but I may be wrong. Excuse me for asking, but are ayou a female? Because western male sounds to me as a feminist adjective. Only curiosity. By the way, are there significant differences between western males and eastern males, or western females, in terms of certainty? Is the answer a certainty itself? I think more or less the same way as Christoph Reuss regarding nuns habit and choice. And I am also a western male. Another anecdotical contribution: the neighbourhood where I live in Mexico City is the most important jewish gettho in the country and I see a lot of hassidic (hope it's well written) kids playing football o riding bikes dressed in their gloomy (from my point of view, of course) black suits, with their old fashioned gangster-style black hats and the curls. Many times I've seen these kids watching non jewish kids (as my son, 14 yo) dressed as normal (statistical meaning) young people: soccer shirts (Manchester United, Roma or, much better, Real Madrid), pants or jeans, sport shoes... and I think that they would gladly change if they had the freedom to do that. Of course I may be wrong, it's a hunch not a (western male) certainty. But this uniform, as long as you can not choose how to dress, seems to me comparable to the burkas, (portable prisons, what a good expression). If you tell me that these kids choose to dress that way I won't say nothing, but I doubt it. I haven't ask because it's not easy at all to speak with these people when you are not one of them. You can also argue that the clothes my son wear are also a uniform, and it's true, but he can at least choose the color of his shirt and his hairdressing. Burkas has many forms and are closer than we use to accept. Regards Salvador Sanchez - Original Message - From: Lawrence de Bivort [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!) Well, Arthur, it is that assumption, precisely, that I am challenging. How would you know you don't have to talk to any of them? How in the world can you be so certain, except by simply (and possibly blindly) 'being certain'. It is, I would suggest, an untested and hence unmerited certainty. If you are willing to pay attention to her eyes (and read so much into them!) why not go a step further and actually, gulp, converse with the/a real person? Why, why, why have western males become so certain of their certainty? It boggles my mind how much that is fundamental importance we western males don't know, and don't know that we don't know. What in the world do you do with the Muslim women in the US (and I assume Canada) who are deciding now to cover themselves, or even wear a veil? Or have you decided that they are all being forced to do so, or are simply stupid and deluded? I do think you can only figure this out by asking Why so resist the idea of doing so? By the way, it occurred to me that many of those on this list might not know _how_ to go about having such talks. If this is the case, please let me know and I'll give you a couple of easy-to-implement ideas. Best regards, Lawry The issue is choice. I really don't have to TALK to a burda'ed Muslim woman to know that they lack choice.
RE: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Greetings, Salvador, Many thanks for your email. I only wish I spoke Spanish as well as you speak English! I am not an English speaking person, as I guess you know. My knowledge of your language is very limited. That's why I am curious about the meaning of an expresion you use recurrently and (I guess) in a pejorative sense: western male. I don't mean 'western male' in a pejorative sense, but in a descriptive one, and, yes, I was criticizing western males on the point of their cultural and cognitive certainties re. Muslim practices. Of course, that is a generalization and there are many western males who do not hold to such certainties, especially when they are questioned. I thought that Lawrence is a male name but I may be wrong. Excuse me for asking, but are ayou a female? Because western male sounds to me as a feminist adjective. Only curiosity. Yes, I am a western male and so was referring broadly to a group that I belong to. I was raised in Europe, live in the US, am limited to four languages, and don't travel or read as much as I should. By the way, are there significant differences between western males and eastern males, or western females, in terms of certainty? Is the answer a certainty itself? I focused on western males because we were talking a Muslim and female practices of dress. I do suspect that on other issues, we would find western females, and eastern males and females full of their own (blind and ignorant) certainties. I suupose that it is an age-old practice of all cultures to assert how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. It just saddens me to see this unfortunate pattern repeat itself here on this wonderful Internet. I have just come from a three-day seminar with a dozen founders of personal computers, the Internet, and the World-Wide Web. Their hope has been that these technologies would enable us to build a better world. It is dispiriting to find medieval hubris creeping in, even here. I think more or less the same way as Christoph Reuss regarding nuns habit and choice. And I am also a western male. And what is your thought and experience with covered Muslim women? If it is possible for nuns to choose their concealing clothing (and Catholic women generally to do so when they enter a church), might it not also be the case that Muslim women make such a choice? Another anecdotical contribution: the neighbourhood where I live in Mexico City is the most important jewish gettho in the country and I see a lot of hassidic (hope it's well written) kids playing football o riding bikes dressed in their gloomy (from my point of view, of course) black suits, with their old fashioned gangster-style black hats and the curls. Many times I've seen these kids watching non jewish kids (as my son, 14 yo) dressed as normal (statistical meaning) young people: soccer shirts (Manchester United, Roma or, much better, Real Madrid), pants or jeans, sport shoes... and I think that they would gladly change if they had the freedom to do that. Of course I may be wrong, it's a hunch not a (western male) certainty. But this uniform, as long as you can not choose how to dress, seems to me comparable to the burkas, (portable prisons, what a good expression). If you tell me that these kids choose to dress that way I won't say nothing, but I doubt it. Salvador, I invite you to re-read your own description of these Hassidic kids. Gangster-style blackhats? If, as I believe is the case, Hassidic practices predate Chicago gansters by several centuries, might it not be more fair and more accurate, to accuse gangsters of wearing Hassidic-style hats? You see what I am getting at, of course I haven't ask because it's not easy at all to speak with these people when you are not one of them. You might be surprised over how easy and how rewarding it might be to talk with Hassidics about their practices. I think that you (or anyone else) who did so might come away with a greater understanding of another culture, and of how the world works. As with the case of Muslim women, I can suggest a couple of ways that you could do this, if you wish to have any suggestions. Wouldn't it be great if everyone reading our corrspendence here decided to approach members of the cultural group that seems most strange to them, and to sit down and explore each other's worlds? You can also argue that the clothes my son wear are also a uniform, and it's true, but he can at least choose the color of his shirt and his hairdressing. Burkas has many forms and are closer than we use to accept. I am missing your meaning here: Burkas are closer than we use to accept? I am delighted that you are on this list, and hope you will participate as much as you wish to. Best regards, Lawry
Re: Sociology/Victimology 101 (was Re: Women love the burka!)
Lawrence, thank you very much for your kind reply. [...] By the way, are there significant differences between western males and eastern males, or western females, in terms of certainty? Is the answer a certainty itself? I focused on western males because we were talking a Muslim and female practices of dress. I do suspect that on other issues, we would find western females, and eastern males and females full of their own (blind and ignorant) certainties. I suupose that it is an age-old practice of all cultures to assert how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. It just saddens me to see this unfortunate pattern repeat itself here on this wonderful Internet. I have just come from a three-day seminar with a dozen founders of personal computers, the Internet, and the World-Wide Web. Their hope has been that these technologies would enable us to build a better world. It is dispiriting to find medieval hubris creeping in, even here. Ethnocentrism? It seems to be a tendency to hide behind our narrowest beliefs, customs and practices looking for shelter against the dangers (real or imaginary) inherent to the globalization processes. I think that the positive effects of Internet in this sort of things will be seen in ten years or more, when our children have voice. I think more or less the same way as Christoph Reuss regarding nuns habit and choice. And I am also a western male. And what is your thought and experience with covered Muslim women? If it is possible for nuns to choose their concealing clothing (and Catholic women generally to do so when they enter a church), might it not also be the case that Muslim women make such a choice? I can not make a clear distinction between information and propaganda in what have to do with the conditions of Muslim women. But I am distrustful of fundamentalism and I think that the issue of choice is an important one. It seems that, regarding burkas in Afganistan, a woman can choose to use it or not, but anyway she have to wear it. What is the value of a choice in such conditions? Even catholic nuns have changed their habits. But anyway, they decided to be nuns (uniforms included), and in some cases they can use other clothes or tehy can even resign. Can a Muslim woman resign to her condition? A few, maybe. Another anecdotical contribution: the neighbourhood where I live in Mexico City is the most important jewish gettho in the country and I see a lot of hassidic (hope it's well written) kids playing football o riding bikes dressed in their gloomy (from my point of view, of course) black suits, with their old fashioned gangster-style black hats and the curls. Many times I've seen these kids watching non jewish kids (as my son, 14 yo) dressed as normal (statistical meaning) young people: soccer shirts (Manchester United, Roma or, much better, Real Madrid), pants or jeans, sport shoes... and I think that they would gladly change if they had the freedom to do that. Of course I may be wrong, it's a hunch not a (western male) certainty. But this uniform, as long as you can not choose how to dress, seems to me comparable to the burkas, (portable prisons, what a good expression). If you tell me that these kids choose to dress that way I won't say nothing, but I doubt it. Salvador, I invite you to re-read your own description of these Hassidic kids. Gangster-style blackhats? If, as I believe is the case, Hassidic practices predate Chicago gansters by several centuries, might it not be more fair and more accurate, to accuse gangsters of wearing Hassidic-style hats? You see what I am getting at, of course Yes, you are right. I used that expression because in my context this kind of hats (and the suits) correspond to the gangster stereotype. It's a description, not a judgement, and I don't want to be offensive. But you say nothing about the argument: this kind of clothing (the hassidic, or the Sik in India, for example) could be seen as primitive (as opposed to modern), impractical, unfair, etc., as the burkas. I haven't ask because it's not easy at all to speak with these people when you are not one of them. You might be surprised over how easy and how rewarding it might be to talk with Hassidics about their practices. I think that you (or anyone else) who did so might come away with a greater understanding of another culture, and of how the world works. As with the case of Muslim women, I can suggest a couple of ways that you could do this, if you wish to have any suggestions. Not in my environment. Hassidcs are not friendly people. I live 100 meters from an important sinagoge and I have to interact with hundreds of them. They are hostile to people outside their group, selfish, lack of respect to neighbours (noisy), etc. etc. I have some jewish friends and when I tried to get information about this particular group even they seemed skeptical. Of course I could find a good rabbi
