Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
I cannot get my Beige G3 Desktop on System 9.2.2 to boot from my external FW device, even though I set up an initial 7GB OS 9 System Partition using Apple Partition Map. The Drive Setup on my Beige shows the FW device as unsupported, which I figured was true for the Drive Setup program, not necessarily true for the OS, since the drive and partitions mount and function fine on my desktop. My goal is to be able to boot from an external HD that I can specify with Startup Disk or on startup via key command . Startup Disk sees the FW System folder and I set the FW drive as boot, but the system reverts to only the ATA internal drive to boot no matter what I do. What am I missing? The command+option+shift+del key command on startup does not give a different result. So I'm figuring that it's a hardware thing and the FW device just doesn't get recognized as a boot-able device even though it functions fine as an external HD. What are my options to get an external HD boot device?I have an internal zip drive but I need more than the 250MB device storage limit for the System 9.2.2, folder and I have limited trust in 250 zip disks these days anyway. Perhaps SCSI?...but there's not many SCSI external enclosures left out there. I haven't gotten USB to work yet in this one, despite trying three different OHCI-compliant cards...but does USB offer a possibility if I can somehow get it to work? Ideas and suggestions, please -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
Try booting while holding option. You should have a boot disk selection thing at that point. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
In my post I mentioned that I tried the command+option+shift+del key command on startup without result. That's the official command, according to Apple http://support.apple.com/kb/TA43845?viewlocale=en_US. The same non-response happens with option on startup. I did check to see that it would respond with Extensions Off with shift key down at startup and that worked fine. So it's not a keyboard or timing issue. Oh, and I made sure that the FW device was turned on at startup. On Sunday, February 10, 2013 9:21:39 AM UTC-8, Alex Sciortino wrote: Try booting while holding option. You should have a boot disk selection thing at that point. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Click wrote: Ideas and suggestions, please Since the Beige G3 didn't come with either built-in Firewire or built- in USB, neither if these are natively bootable, and holding the Option key, or trying to select the HD in Startup Disk won't work. The only natively bootable external option is the external SCSI port, which should be able to boot any bootable System. It's possible to boot OS X from the external Firewire HD by using XPostFacto 4. In this case you'd use any internal HD as an XPF Helper Disk in the XPF Options, and then point the boot at the external Firewire HD. This will start the boot process on the internal HD, and then seamlessly transfer the boot to the external HD after the extensions that load the PCI Firewire card are loaded and the Firewire HD is available. This is your ONLY option to boot externally from unsupported PCI cards. It will also work with ATA cards that lack Apple Boot ROM compatibility, and may work with some USB cards although USB isn't officially supported by XPF because some cards were very problematic. You can only boot OS X using XPF Helper Disk, so a 10.4.11 System would be optimal for the external Firewire HD. If you decide to go this route, I can help with any problems off-list. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
Tnx, Kris. That's what I was beginning to think. Seems a little odd given the internal ATA drive(s) boot setup. So I need to look for a SCSI interface external drive. What version of SCSI would work on the beige G3 built-in port-only v1? Does it matter what type of drive interface is on the inside of the SCSI external enclosure? In other words if I could find an ATA or eSATA drive that worked in a SCSI enclosure, do you have any idea if that would work? My particular need is to have a backup drive to native boot into OS 9 to continue using some critical apps that were dropped by the vendor when OS X came about. Classic on my Mac minis Tiger doesn't fully work for one of the apps, after MUCH experimenting. Now off to eBay and Google for some SCSI shopping... On Sunday, February 10, 2013 9:37:44 AM UTC-8, Kris Tilford wrote: On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Click wrote: Ideas and suggestions, please Since the Beige G3 didn't come with either built-in Firewire or built- in USB, neither if these are natively bootable, and holding the Option key, or trying to select the HD in Startup Disk won't work. The only natively bootable external option is the external SCSI port, which should be able to boot any bootable System. It's possible to boot OS X from the external Firewire HD by using XPostFacto 4. In this case you'd use any internal HD as an XPF Helper Disk in the XPF Options, and then point the boot at the external Firewire HD. This will start the boot process on the internal HD, and then seamlessly transfer the boot to the external HD after the extensions that load the PCI Firewire card are loaded and the Firewire HD is available. This is your ONLY option to boot externally from unsupported PCI cards. It will also work with ATA cards that lack Apple Boot ROM compatibility, and may work with some USB cards although USB isn't officially supported by XPF because some cards were very problematic. You can only boot OS X using XPF Helper Disk, so a 10.4.11 System would be optimal for the external Firewire HD. If you decide to go this route, I can help with any problems off-list. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
On Feb 10, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Click wrote: Tnx, Kris. That's what I was beginning to think. Seems a little odd given the internal ATA drive(s) boot setup. So I need to look for a SCSI interface external drive. What version of SCSI would work on the beige G3 built-in port-only v1? Does it matter what type of drive interface is on the inside of the SCSI external enclosure? In other words if I could find an ATA or eSATA drive that worked in a SCSI enclosure, do you have any idea if that would work? Basically you need a SCSI device that can plug into the Mac's port, either natively or via adapters. SCSI 1 will definitely work, and any drive that has a 50-pin interface will work via adapters. SCSI drives with 68 pin interfaces will not, afaik. -- Bruce Johnson Wherever you go, there you are B. Banzai, PhD -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
On Feb 10, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Click wrote: Tnx, Kris. That's what I was beginning to think. Seems a little odd given the internal ATA drive(s) boot setup. So I need to look for a SCSI interface external drive. What version of SCSI would work on the beige G3 built-in port-only v1? Does it matter what type of drive interface is on the inside of the SCSI external enclosure? In other words if I could find an ATA or eSATA drive that worked in a SCSI enclosure, do you have any idea if that would work? My particular need is to have a backup drive to native boot into OS 9 to continue using some critical apps that were dropped by the vendor when OS X came about. Classic on my Mac minis Tiger doesn't fully work for one of the apps, after MUCH experimenting. Even though the OP says Backup Drive, I think he could also use an internal partitioned drive that has Classic OS 9.1 on one partition for his purpose, then use option key on Startup. I don't think he means a drive that he can use as a external backup for his OSs, Apps or Docs. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
The setup that I tried originally was an 80G drive partitioned into 7G and 83G on the external FW device. Since the internal ATA drive is only 6G, this allowed me to backup the internal ATA drive completely to that first partition. My intent was that I would also be able to use this external 7G partition as a complete backup for the internal ATA drive. Since the beige G3 won't boot from FW, then I need to reconsider. So I guess it'll be a SCSI-1 device (how can I tell from the ebay listings) or install a second ATA drive into the beige. Fortunately the beige desktop has the later ROM which allows for a slave device on the cable. I was just hoping not to add any more power usage strain on that feeble old 150W internal power supply. Only remaining question, then, is how to tell if a hard drive or HD enclosure is compatible with the beige port? What spec do I need to ask about before I purchase? It looks like there's quite a variety of SCSI interfaces and protocols out there to my uneducated eye, at least. On Sunday, February 10, 2013 11:17:50 AM UTC-8, billycarmacs wrote: On Feb 10, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Click wrote: Tnx, Kris. That's what I was beginning to think. Seems a little odd given the internal ATA drive(s) boot setup. So I need to look for a SCSI interface external drive. What version of SCSI would work on the beige G3 built-in port-only v1? Does it matter what type of drive interface is on the inside of the SCSI external enclosure? In other words if I could find an ATA or eSATA drive that worked in a SCSI enclosure, do you have any idea if that would work? My particular need is to have a backup drive to native boot into OS 9 to continue using some critical apps that were dropped by the vendor when OS X came about. Classic on my Mac minis Tiger doesn't fully work for one of the apps, after MUCH experimenting. Even though the OP says Backup Drive, I think he could also use an internal partitioned drive that has Classic OS 9.1 on one partition for his purpose, then use option key on Startup. I don't think he means a drive that he can use as a external backup for his OSs, Apps or Docs. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
Try a IDE SCSI adapter. I am sure that it is a standard IDE drive in a FireWire to IDE case. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
On Feb 10, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Click wrote: The setup that I tried originally was an 80G drive partitioned into 7G and 83G on the external FW device. Since the internal ATA drive is only 6G, this allowed me to backup the internal ATA drive completely to that first partition. My intent was that I would also be able to use this external 7G partition as a complete backup for the internal ATA drive. Since the beige G3 won't boot from FW, then I need to reconsider. I would buy a larger internal ATA drive, making sure not to exceed the size for a beige if there is such a limitation. Replace the 6GB one. They are cheaper and larger capacities than SCSI. Then partition it into 2+ partitions, one dedicated to OS 9. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Bill Connelly wrote: Since the beige G3 won't boot from FW, then I need to reconsider. You can boot OS X from the FW drive using xPostFacto. I'd install 10.4.11 onto the 73GB partition, and then use XPF 4 (it's carbon and runs in both OS 9 OS X) from your OS 9 internal HD. Alternately, remove the 80GB HD from the FW enclosure and install it into the Beige G3. TMI-Sometimes booting 2nd HDs can be problematic on Beige, there is one ROM version (A) that doesn't support any slave drive booting, although XPF can boot slave drives on normally early Beige with ROM A by using a bootable master HD as an XPF Helper Drive. Later ROM B C can boot both master slave. You can place newer B C ROMs into older Beige. It's a little complicated because there were three ROMs (A, B, C) and three hardware revisions of Beige (1, 2, 3) and the ROMs mostly matched up with the models revisions, but if you really wanted the fastest possible Beige you probably wanted an early Rev.1 model that had an overclockable System bus which was determined by the Grackle chip (blue colored chip on motherboard). Most Rev.1's had Grackle chips capable of overclocking from 66MHz System Bus to 83MHz, but the Rev.23 had slower Grackle chips that were not capable of overclocking. The fastest possible Beige would be a Rev.1 Beige w/fast Grackle with a version B or C ROM chip so you could boot all internal devices and overclock the System bus to 83MHz. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
OK, Thanks so much to all for the good ideas. You're a knowledgeable and resourceful bunch! I'll post back with what I decided to do. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: Beige G3 Desktop External HD Device Boot
TMI-Sometimes booting 2nd HDs can be problematic on Beige, there is one ROM version (A) that doesn't support any slave drive booting, although XPF can boot slave drives on normally early Beige with ROM A by using a bootable master HD as an XPF Helper Drive. Later ROM B C can boot both master slave. You can place newer B C ROMs into older Beige. It's a little complicated because there were three ROMs (A, B, C) and three hardware revisions of Beige (1, 2, 3) and the ROMs mostly matched up with the models revisions, but if you really wanted the fastest possible Beige you probably wanted an early Rev.1 model that had an overclockable System bus which was determined by the Grackle chip (blue colored chip on motherboard). Most Rev.1's had Grackle chips capable of overclocking from 66MHz System Bus to 83MHz, but the Rev.23 had slower Grackle chips that were not capable of overclocking. The fastest possible Beige would be a Rev.1 Beige w/fast Grackle with a version B or C ROM chip so you could boot all internal devices and overclock the System bus to 83MHz. Normal builds were Rev. 1A (Rev. 1 mobo and Rev. A ROM), Rev. 2B (Rev. 2 mobo and Rev. B ROM) and Rev. 3C (Rev. 3 mobo and Rev. C ROM). B and C ROMs provide essentially the same functionality (mainly support for slave IDE drives). Rev. C ROMs corrected a bug in the video support which was present in Rev. A and C ROMs. The fastest and best configuration would be Rev. 1C. Occasionally, Apple would respond to a customer complaint for lack of slave support on Rev. 1A machines, which were usually 266 MHz examples, by supplying a Rev. B ROM on an exchange basis. Machines with Rev. A ROMs which also have a factory Zip drive will have a SCSI Zip, which is why the Beige PSUs have BOTH a standard Molex and a miniature Molex power connector. The SCSI Zips required the miniature connector; the IDE Zips required the standard connector. The early Beiges were really a perfect storm: Apple initially couldn't figure out how to properly support slave drives, and Iomega initially couldn't figure out how to make its Zip drives work as slaves. So, there was some overlap between the availability of slave support from Apple, and the necessity for SCSI Zips. Even after slave support was available from Apple, Apple only provided master cables for the hard drive bus. At one point some years ago, my company manufactured combo master and slave hard drive bus cables. Quite a number were sold. The solutions for Mini Tower, Desktop and All-in-One combo master/slave hard drive cables were quite different. Every one of my cables were tested and passed at UATA/33 (33 MB/sec), even though the Beige IDE buses were limited to 16.67 MB/sec by the host adapter chip. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
