Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 24, 2008, at 6:47 PM, glen wrote: Now from your post, I 'm thinking the jumper shunts I used may not have been connecting properly. They are so tiny, aren't they? The one I put into slot 4 was bent slightly too tight on the inside middle area ... so after looking at the others that I didn't mess with (5,6,7 ...), they were all nicely shaped ... so I tried to reshape the one I had moved from 3 to 4. That left 1, 2, 3 empty, 4 re-shaped and the rest untouched. I would suggest finding a source for new jumpers ... Exactly my thinking as well. t will do that when time permits. Thanks for your reply. --glen I read in another G3-G5 thread that someone suggests switching to individual jumpers (like the ones found on the ATA and older SCSI drives ???), in lieu of the Jumper Block encasing the smaller, wire only, jumpers. I would worry about them falling off, but that might be a suitable alternative if you cannot find the metal replacement ones for the block ... let us know what you find. So far, my Yikes! is still behaving great after a week or so of moderate use. Now wondering about going to 500 ... Starting another thread about adding cpu fans. Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
I would suggest finding a source for new jumpers ... Exactly my thinking as well. t will do that when time permits. Thanks for your reply. --glen I read in another G3-G5 thread that someone suggests switching to individual jumpers (like the ones found on the ATA and older SCSI drives ???), in lieu of the Jumper Block encasing the smaller, wire only, jumpers. I would worry about them falling off, but that might be a suitable alternative if you cannot find the metal replacement ones for the block ... let us know what you find. Individual jumpers may have been the problem; I used a mixture of individual jumpers that were laying around and think some may have been the wrong size to make the proper contacts. Xlr8yourmac.com has a number of articles for upgrading to a G4 Zif and resetting the clock speed on the Yikes! and Yosemite logic boards. One article recommends using Radio Shack P/N 276-1512a jumpers if the the proper jumper block is not available. Think I will pay RS a visit before I start this project again. Thanks for the reply. --glen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 24, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Mel wrote: How do you obtain the temperature reading? Mel XLR8 MACh Speed Control 3.4.2 provides thermal monitoring for certain brands of (Motorola) PowerPC G4s (750-7410), and provides a temperature reading (currently at 24°C). I'm looking for more information. You can see more about it on Daystar's site: http://daystar-store.com/machspeedcontrol-osxandos9combo.aspx I believe the thermal monitoring is working on my cpu (PowerPC 7400 (Max) v2.6). Not certain, though. Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
Someone pointed this out to me awhile ago ... when you simply replace a PCI card, push the CUDA ... sometimes the PCI Graphics won't power up ... then you need to read this: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=95066 OK, now I know what you mean and I did that. Now from your post, I 'm thinking the jumper shunts I used may not have been connecting properly. They are so tiny, aren't they? The one I put into slot 4 was bent slightly too tight on the inside middle area ... so after looking at the others that I didn't mess with (5,6,7 ...), they were all nicely shaped ... so I tried to reshape the one I had moved from 3 to 4. That left 1, 2, 3 empty, 4 re-shaped and the rest untouched. I would suggest finding a source for new jumpers ... Exactly my thinking as well. t will do that when time permits. Thanks for your reply. --glen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 23, 2008, at 9:06 PM, glen wrote: Bill, you got my interest. Could you elaborate on the jumper problem and the solution. Also what PCI Graphics won't power up technique are you referring to. Of course. Someone pointed this out to me awhile ago ... when you simply replace a PCI card, push the CUDA ... sometimes the PCI Graphics won't power up ... then you need to read this: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=95066 this is also of interest (CUDA part, referring you also to 95066): http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=95065 The reason I ask is a failed attempt of trying to install a G4 Yikes processor in a G3 BW a year or so ago. I know the Yikes board and the Yosemite board are basically the same. I was attempting to over clocking the new Yikes processor from 400 to 450 Mhz on the Yosemite board. I did the firmware and the cache enabler upgraded needed to have the BW recognize the G4 processor and was aware of the jumper settings needed to run the newer faster processor. However, the results were spotty. Either I got no boot or chime with the proper jumper settings or it would run only sometimes with the old jumper block as a lower clock speed. I just assumed the G4 Zip was defective. You did a few more steps than I did ... I never replaced the cpu ... I'm using the original G4/400 that came with my Yikes! that I recently got from a friend near Philadelphia ... I just adjusted the jumper block, as found in this article: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4ZONE/G4YIKESOC/index.html Now from your post, I 'm thinking the jumper shunts I used may not have been connecting properly. They are so tiny, aren't they? The one I put into slot 4 was bent slightly too tight on the inside middle area ... so after looking at the others that I didn't mess with (5,6,7 ...), they were all nicely shaped ... so I tried to reshape the one I had moved from 3 to 4. That left 1, 2, 3 empty, 4 re-shaped and the rest untouched. I would suggest finding a source for new jumpers ... and using them. The ones you take out are easily bent out of shape. I had to create a tool to hook them and pull them out ... a simple straight pin that I put a tiny bent hook shape on the sharp tip ... The first one I took out (slot 1) flew across the room, and when I finally found it, it was missing an inner prong ... The one I took out of 3 came out better (practice makes for progress). Was going to give up when I thought about looking at them all under a magnifying glass again ... and trying the copying of the other's shape idea ... after all ... if that didn't work, I was at a loss ... since I had messed up the first one ... At 3:00 am or so ... patience and slight of hand ... it worked. With the technique of removing the battery, waiting 10 minutes, etc ... and having properly shaped jumpers ... Chime! Still running with no freezes at 450 (448) ... or seizures, as a friend called it off list ... No rush on reply, the B W in question is now in storage -- but if I ever get the time (hopefully in the next year or so) I may try it again. TIA --glen I'm considering trying 500MHz ... but would make myself install a cpu fan first ... so I probably should stop here. Feel lucky I got it to work at 450 and, it also seems stable. Oh ... I'm using XLR8 MACh Speed Control 3.4.2 under OS X Tiger to control/monitor the cpu and L2 cache. Maybe that's another factor you might consider? It works on non-upgrade type cpus, as well as the upgrades, and it appears to have come about when the G3s and early G4s were making their debut ... i.e. the Yikes! single cpu era. Whew! One cup of coffee and some cookies ... and I'm off! Then there's this new (2nd hand) Apple Aluminum KB and Mighty Mouse I wanted to get to know better ... Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 22, 1:30 am, insightinmind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well .. I tool the plunge (or stick pin) and changed my Yikes! G4/400 to a G4/450. Still testing, but seems smooth thus far. Wish me luck ... temp rose from 24C to 28C. Forgot to mention that I put fans on those chips I overclocked. Old Pentium fans work the best. Just the right size.. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 22, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Larry Stotler wrote: On Nov 22, 1:30 am, insightinmind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well .. I tool the plunge (or stick pin) and changed my Yikes! G4/400 to a G4/450. Still testing, but seems smooth thus far. Wish me luck ... temp rose from 24C to 28C. Forgot to mention that I put fans on those chips I overclocked. Old Pentium fans work the best. Just the right size.. Where might I find one? Any experience with XLR8 MACh Speed Control 3.4.2 (for OS X) temperature indicator? No other app such as Bresink's Temperature Monitor/Hardware Monitor gives any temp readings. My room temperature is ~65 deg F, and XLR8 is telling me the cpu goes from 24 to 28 deg C (75.2 to 82.4 deg F). Sound right for a cpu? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
I have a friend that has successfully over-clocked her beige g3, but with the beige g3's there are pins you can move around to change the speed. With a Yikes! i think that if you are only going to have to mess with the processor and not the motherboard than go for it. But be prepared to replace the processor if something goes wrong. OCing is risky it can totally wreck your computer. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 10:38 AM, insightinmind [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I've read up on OCing, and it seems to be easy enough on a Yikes!, but maybe just too dangerous relative to overheating and data corruption. Anyone have success on theirs? I would like to go from 400 to 450, requiring, I think the L2 cache to function at 225. Leave it alone? How about replacing the mobo with a Sawtooth (or other, if I could find one), along with the cases back panel? Allowing for faster cpu's / upgrades? Ideas Comments welcomed. *Bill Connelly* *artsite:* http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio *myspace: *http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 21, 2008, at 2:03 PM, jonas ulrich wrote: I have a friend that has successfully over-clocked her beige g3, but with the beige g3's there are pins you can move around to change the speed. With a Yikes! i think that if you are only going to have to mess with the processor and not the motherboard than go for it. But be prepared to replace the processor if something goes wrong. OCing is risky it can totally wreck your computer. There's a fairly simple jumper block on the Yikes! (and BW) mobo that is designed to be easy to change the multiplication factor that increases the speed. I just didn't want to do it if it would, as you put it, wreck (my) computer ... Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4ZONE/G4YIKESOC/ read this it tells how do oc a Yikes! there have been reported failures... On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:55 AM, jonas ulrich [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Oh i didn't know there is a jumper block I thought you had to remove resisters like on the newer powermac g4's. I would try it then. Do your research though. On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 11:31 AM, insightinmind [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Nov 21, 2008, at 2:03 PM, jonas ulrich wrote: I have a friend that has successfully over-clocked her beige g3, but with the beige g3's there are pins you can move around to change the speed. With a Yikes! i think that if you are only going to have to mess with the processor and not the motherboard than go for it. But be prepared to replace the processor if something goes wrong. OCing is risky it can totally wreck your computer. There's a fairly simple jumper block on the Yikes! (and BW) mobo that is designed to be easy to change the multiplication factor that increases the speed. I just didn't want to do it if it would, as you put it, wreck (my) computer ... *Bill Connelly* *artsite:* http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio *myspace: *http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 21, 1:38 pm, insightinmind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've read up on OCing, and it seems to be easy enough on a Yikes!, but maybe just too dangerous relative to overheating and data corruption. Anyone have success on theirs? Yep. Got a G4/350 running stable at 400Mhz. I would like to go from 400 to 450, requiring, I think the L2 cache to function at 225. Should be possible. I have a G4/450 running at 533 in a G3 AIO. How about replacing the mobo with a Sawtooth (or other, if I could find one), along with the cases back panel? Allowing for faster cpu's / upgrades? Should fit. However,you may have to modify the backplate. Not sure what the compatibility is on some of them. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 21, 2008, at 2:05 PM, Larry Stotler wrote: I've read up on OCing, and it seems to be easy enough on a Yikes!, but maybe just too dangerous relative to overheating and data corruption. Anyone have success on theirs? Yep. Got a G4/350 running stable at 400Mhz. Unlike Intels, which are eminently overclockable, early PPCs are usually overclockable by one step, only. Certain G4s are just plain not overclockable, or at least not without running so hot that the heatsinks are too hot to touch. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:13 PM, PeterH wrote: Unlike Intels, which are eminently overclockable, early PPCs are usually overclockable by one step, only. Certain G4s are just plain not overclockable, or at least not without running so hot that the heatsinks are too hot to touch. I have XLR8 MACh Speed Control for OS X ... is the temp indicator valid? I suppose if it is, I should install that, and use it to control/ gauge the cpu. It seems to work well with Sonnet G4 cpu upgrades for PowerPC 8500 types ... it has run on my Yikes! but I went back to the Apple supplied functionality of its cpu controlling elements. Thanks for all the input ... still undecided if I want to try 1 step up to 450 ... my current G4/400 weighs in at 399 with 1MB L2 cache at 200 under Xbench 1.3: Model PowerMac1,2 Processor PowerPC G4 @ 399 MHz Version 7400 (Max) v2.6 L1 Cache32K (instruction), 32K (data) L2 Cache1024K @ 200 MHz Bus Frequency 100 MHz Here's my Apple System Profiler info on my Yikes! Machine Name:Power Mac G3 (PCI graphics) Machine Model: PowerMac1,2 CPU Type:PowerPC G4 (2.6) Number Of CPUs: 1 CPU Speed: 400 MHz L2 Cache (per CPU): 1 MB Memory: 1 GB Bus Speed: 100 MHz Boot ROM Version:1.1.2f2 Comments? Worth the 11% increase in cpu power? Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Anyone Overclocked a Yikes! Recently?
Well .. I tool the plunge (or stick pin) and changed my Yikes! G4/400 to a G4/450. Still testing, but seems smooth thus far. Man ... those jumpers are tiny! and at first, it didn't work ... had to go back in and adjust the jumper so it would match the others more closely ... needed to move the center part about the width of 1/2 a stick pin diameter ... also had to use the PCI Graphics won't power up technique of getting it all going again ... Out with the Old: Xbench 1.3 Model PowerMac1,2 Processor PowerPC G4 @ 399 MHz Version 7400 (Max) v2.6 L1 Cache32K (instruction), 32K (data) L2 Cache1024K @ 200 MHz Bus Frequency 100 MHz Apple System Profiler Machine Name: Power Mac G3 (PCI graphics) Machine Model: PowerMac1,2 CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (2.6) Number Of CPUs:1 CPU Speed: 400 MHz L2 Cache (per CPU):1 MB Memory:1 GB Bus Speed: 100 MHz Boot ROM Version: 1.1.2f2 In with the New Xbench 1.3 Model PowerMac1,2 Processor PowerPC G4 @ 449 MHz Version 7400 (Max) v2.6 L1 Cache32K (instruction), 32K (data) L2 Cache1024K @ 225 MHz Bus Frequency 100 MHz Apple System Profiler: Machine Name: Power Mac G3 (PCI graphics) Machine Model: PowerMac1,2 CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (2.6) Number Of CPUs: 1 CPU Speed: 450 MHz L2 Cache (per CPU): 1 MB Memory: 1 GB Bus Speed: 100 MHz Boot ROM Version: 1.1.2f2 Comments? Worth the 11% increase in cpu power? Xbench says about 12% (tested while using XLR8 MACh Speed Control (cpu speed 448.0, L2 cache 224.4). Wish me luck ... temp rose from 24C to 28C. Pushed it some with iTunes Visualizer and DVD Player. I will be grateful and stop here. Thanks, Bill Connelly artsite: http://mysite.verizon.net/moonstoneartstudio myspace: http://www.myspace.com/moonstoneartstudio --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
