Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-03 Thread Clark Martin 


Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.

On Oct 3, 2012, at 12:20 AM, Rock  wrote:

> If you are measuring Direct Current, yes. But you are measuring Alternating 
> Current so you have to multiply the Volt-Amps by .707 to get the actual power 
> developed. Volt-Amps are useful in determining circuit breaker ratings.

No, you multiply Peak volts OR amps to get RMS (provided the waveform is a pure 
sine wave). 

Volts times amps is watts IF they are in phase. Purely resistive loads are in 
phase but complex loads, which include Switch Mode Power Supplies (SMPS) are 
not. For SMPSs the VA is higher than the Watt value. 

To understand it a little, take for example a capacitor across the AC line. The 
voltage and current are ninety degrees out of phase. That is, when the current 
is at a maximum, the voltage is zero. So no actual power is consumed, hence it 
draws zero watts even though it is drawing some amount of VA. In engineering 
terms we call this imaginary power. Watts are a measurement of real power, VA 
is a measurement of complex (real and imaginary) power. 

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-02 Thread Kris Tilford 

On Oct 2, 2012, at 9:26 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote:


But you are measuring
Alternating Current so you have to multiply the Volt-Amps by .707  
to get

the actual power developed.


Oh! I didn't know that!


The power is RMS, so you multiply by 1/√2 for sine wave AC current.

See:

--
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-02 Thread Valter Prahlad 
Il giorno 3-10-2012 1:20, Rock ha scritto:

> But you are measuring
> Alternating Current so you have to multiply the Volt-Amps by .707 to get
> the actual power developed.

Oh! I didn't know that!


-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-02 Thread Rock 

On 10/1/2012 7:44 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote:

Using either the Kill-a-watt VA setting or multiplying the volts times the
amps results in Volt-Amps (VA).

I was taught that A multiplied by V equals W. Is it right?
If you are measuring Direct Current, yes. But you are measuring 
Alternating Current so you have to multiply the Volt-Amps by .707 to get 
the actual power developed. Volt-Amps are useful in determining circuit 
breaker ratings.


--
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-01 Thread Valter Prahlad 
Il giorno 1-10-2012 23:03, Clark Martin ha scritto:

> Are you sure you were reading Watts and not VA?
The display says "W", thus Watts.

> Using either the Kill-a-watt VA setting or multiplying the volts times the
> amps results in Volt-Amps (VA).
I was taught that A multiplied by V equals W. Is it right?

> It is normal for an input filter to draw some VA when a hard power switch is
> off. But you don't pay for VA only watts.
Since my meter says Watts, I'm afraid I WILL pay for those. ;-)

>> It looks like electronic engineers have a different meaning for the word
>> "off" than normal people. ;-)
> 
> No, but we do know about the reality of electronic components.
And that would be...? :-)

I mean, I uderstand people like "instant on" and that's why engineers design
circuits that way, trading a little consumption for a faster start.
But that's a kind of stand-by, NOT a real "off".
And it should be made known: I've been using computers for 30 years, but I
never knew that "off" is not really off when it's about IT equipment. :-/

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-01 Thread Clark Martin 


Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.

On Oct 1, 2012, at 2:11 AM, Valter Prahlad  wrote:

> Il giorno 30-09-2012 19:06, Dan ha scritto:
> 
>>> I was astonished to discover it sucks 17 Watts when off! :-o
> Correction: on a second, more accurate measurement, my G5 seems to draw 9
> Watts when off (instead of 17 - I'm using a cheap power meter, kind of a
> "Kill-a-watt", and they are often inaccurate at low power consumption).

Are you sure you were reading Watts and not VA?  The are not the same. Using 
either the Kill-a-watt VA setting or multiplying the volts times the amps 
results in Volt-Amps (VA). 

> Actually, it's not.
> I got a measurement-mania :-D and measured everything in my home.
> Any IT equipment seem to draw some power when off:
> - I tested 4 Windows PCs: they draw from 4 to 7 Watts when off. Some of them
> still draw 1 or 2 Watts even when the (hard) switch is off! :-o
> - My 21" Sony CRT monitor draws between 10 and 21 Watts when off;
> ironically, it draws the very same when it's in stand-by.
> - My 15" Neovo LCD monitor draws 2 Watts when off.

It is normal for an input filter to draw some VA when a hard power switch is 
off. But you don't pay for VA only watts. 

> 
> It looks like electronic engineers have a different meaning for the word
> "off" than normal people. ;-)
> 

No, but we do know about the reality of electronic components. 

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-01 Thread Valter Prahlad 
Il giorno 1-10-2012 18:28, Bruce Johnson ha scritto:

> There wouldn't be a power strip in there somewhere, with a little neon light
> burning all the time?
Nope, I connected the G5 directly to the power-meter with its own cable.
(measurement would have been pointless otherwise)
I measured each appliance on its own.

> Is there a power adapter for an Apple Cinema display?
No Apple displays.

> Second, calibrate your 'Kill-a-watt' clone, plug something like a vacuum
> cleaner, an iron, or some other 'dumb' appliance into it and see what the
> power usage is when off...you may be seeing false positives.
Yeah, I read a similar suggestion and that's what I did: plugging another
appliance (known consumption) together with the low-power appliance (like
the computer off), and then subtracting the known appliance's consumption.
It's been much more reliable.

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-01 Thread Valter Prahlad 
Il giorno 1-10-2012 15:27, Dan ha scritto:

>> It looks like electronic engineers have a different meaning for the
>> word "off" than normal people.
> 
> When shutdown, the machine still has a small draw to keep the p/s,
> PMU, part of the motherboard, and keyboard running.
It seems quite an ineffective design, keeping powered all those parts, just
to enable the boot switch.

> people love that "instant on".
That's what I thought: it's mainly for a quicker start.

> Keep in mind that if you disconnect power from the Mac, it will keep
> that PMU running anyway, using the pram battery.
Ok, it will cost less than the power consumption anyway. ;-)

> There's also the school of thought about the "jolt" of hitting a
> machine with a cold start every day.  Wear and tare on the
> components, and all that.  Personally, except for HDs, I never bought
> into that, for home-based systems at least.
Yeah, it sounds like a persistant myth; perhaps it was true many years ago.

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-01 Thread Bruce Johnson 

On Sep 30, 2012, at 6:11 PM, Valter Prahlad wrote:

> Il giorno 30-09-2012 19:06, Dan ha scritto:
> 
>>> I was astonished to discover it sucks 17 Watts when off! :-o
> Correction: on a second, more accurate measurement, my G5 seems to draw 9
> Watts when off (instead of 17 - I'm using a cheap power meter, kind of a
> "Kill-a-watt", and they are often inaccurate at low power consumption).

There wouldn't be a power strip in there somewhere, with a little neon light 
burning all the time?

Is there a power adapter for an Apple Cinema display? That pulls power all the 
time to enable the power-on feature of the monitor. Come to think of it, the G5 
may pull a trickle of power to maintain that as well.

Second, calibrate your 'Kill-a-watt' clone, plug something like a vacuum 
cleaner, an iron, or some other 'dumb' appliance into it and see what the power 
usage is when off...you may be seeing false positives.

An IgNobel prize was just won by folks who "demonstrated" brain activity in a 
dead Atlantic Salmon:



(Me I wonder why they're covering up the clear evidence of zombie atlantic 
salmon)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-10-01 Thread Dan 

At 3:11 AM +0200 10/01/2012, Valter Prahlad wrote:

Il giorno 30-09-2012 19:06, Dan ha scritto:


 I was astonished to discover it sucks 17 Watts when off! :-o


Correction: on a second, more accurate measurement, my G5 seems to draw 9
Watts when off (instead of 17


Ok.  That's MUCH better.  < 10 watts is what I would expect; 
basically the same as a couple of nightlights.  17 is a problem.


It looks like electronic engineers have a different meaning for the 
word "off" than normal people.


When shutdown, the machine still has a small draw to keep the p/s, 
PMU, part of the motherboard, and keyboard running.


Since magic is unreliable, you gotta use something to keep the 
machine warm, so it will respond to the boot button on the keyboard, 
etc.  Likewise for displays and other devices - people love that 
"instant on".


Keep in mind that if you disconnect power from the Mac, it will keep 
that PMU running anyway, using the pram battery.


Still too much for me anyway. It would cost me around 10 euros each 
year, just for being connected to the mains. (but since it's 
connected to an UPS that I switch off when not in use, it doesn't)


Killing power to a system is fine.  Just keep in mind that it will 
require a new pram battery sooner.


There's also the school of thought about the "jolt" of hitting a 
machine with a cold start every day.  Wear and tare on the 
components, and all that.  Personally, except for HDs, I never bought 
into that, for home-based systems at least.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

--
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-09-30 Thread Valter Prahlad 
Il giorno 30-09-2012 19:06, Dan ha scritto:

>> I was astonished to discover it sucks 17 Watts when off! :-o
Correction: on a second, more accurate measurement, my G5 seems to draw 9
Watts when off (instead of 17 - I'm using a cheap power meter, kind of a
"Kill-a-watt", and they are often inaccurate at low power consumption).

> You mean physically shutdown or just sleeping?  What about the display?
I mean shutdown. No light. Totally dead. :-)

And I measured the G5 only, no other connected appliance.

> If the former, then that seems strange.
Actually, it's not.
I got a measurement-mania :-D and measured everything in my home.
Any IT equipment seem to draw some power when off:
- I tested 4 Windows PCs: they draw from 4 to 7 Watts when off. Some of them
still draw 1 or 2 Watts even when the (hard) switch is off! :-o
- My 21" Sony CRT monitor draws between 10 and 21 Watts when off;
ironically, it draws the very same when it's in stand-by.
- My 15" Neovo LCD monitor draws 2 Watts when off.

It looks like electronic engineers have a different meaning for the word
"off" than normal people. ;-)


Il giorno 30-09-2012 23:21, Ángel Villodre López ha scritto:

> Thanks for sharing all this data, it's real food for thought - 17 watts
> being in shutdown is a nasty consumption
Well, actually it seems 9 Watts instead. Still too much for me anyway.
It would cost me around 10 euros each year, just for being connected to the
mains. :-(
(but since it's connected to an UPS that I switch off when not in use, it
doesn't)

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-09-30 Thread Cameron Kaiser 
> Thanks for sharing all this data, it's real food for thought - 17 watts
> being in shutdown is a nasty consumption

Good thing my quad is never shut down. 8-) (I telnet into it from work and
do tasks on it on the command line.)

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- "I am Dyslexic of Brog. Fesistence is rutile. You will be asmilsilated." ---

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-09-30 Thread Ángel Villodre López 
Thanks for sharing all this data, it's real food for thought - 17 watts
being in shutdown is a nasty consumption
-- 

[image: Grupos de Google]*Grupo 2012 ASIR1D I.E.S. Da Vinci*Consultar
este grupo 

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

Re: PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-09-30 Thread Dan 

At 5:46 AM +0200 09/28/2012, Valter Prahlad wrote:

PowerMac G5 DP 2.7 GHz liquid cooled (Early 2005), with a Radeon 9600 XT
graphic card, OSX 10.4.11 (# = Watts):

- Off = 17

[...]

I was astonished to discover it sucks 17 Watts when off! :-o
WTF! Does he think electrons are free?!? ;-D
I wonder what the hell is consuming all that power when off... :-?


You mean physically shutdown or just sleeping?  What about the display?

If the former, then that seems strange.

If the latter, then that's about what I'd expect.  The p/s, PMU, part 
of the motherboard, ethernet interface, and RAM are kept alive during 
sleep.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

--
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

PowerMac G5 power consumption

2012-09-27 Thread Valter Prahlad 
Some time ago, someone wondered here about G5 power consumption.

Today I measured all of my electronical equipments' consumption (I can be
quite OCD :-), and here's my find.
PowerMac G5 DP 2.7 GHz liquid cooled (Early 2005), with a Radeon 9600 XT
graphic card, OSX 10.4.11 (# = Watts):

- Off = 17
- Just Finder (idle, no app loaded) = 160
- TenFourFox + Outlook Express (idle) = 170
- Outlook Express (using) = 170-300
- Entourage (using ) = 170-180
- Call of Duty 2 = 310

I was astonished to discover it sucks 17 Watts when off! :-o
WTF! Does he think electrons are free?!? ;-D
I wonder what the hell is consuming all that power when off... :-?

Also interesting it's that, when using Outlook Express (within Classic), the
burden on the CPU can be as intensive as playing Call of Duty 2!

For comparison, my PC with a Pentium 4 3.2 GHz CPU and a Radeon 9550 graphic
card, takes 7 Watts when off, 60 Watts on idle, and 135 Watts running
3DMark03 (an intensive graphic benchmark). Less than half the G5 (although
that PC is a small form factor, thus designed for lower consumption).

I got the G5 for free... but I'm afraid I'm repaying it through my power
bills! ;-D

-- 
You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for 
those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette 
guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list