Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On Feb 23, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Fabian Fang wrote: Until Lion is released in the coming months, Leopard and Snow Leopard are the current and latest Mac OS. It makes good sense for members of the G-Group to join our Leopard Group to seek or provide assistance. Sorry to continue the meta-discussion, but I'd really like to add my 2 cents. No it does not. Looking at the posting rates and subscriber numbers of all these myriad LEM lists, it's very clear that almost all of the actual action is in just a handful of lists. Continual splitting of groups into finer and finer-grained buckets merely serves to dilute possible support and makes it very hard to find answers; I cannot count how many times I've seen someone ask a question on one list that was JUST ANSWERED, in great and satisfactory detail, on another list. I like to analogize the current state of the LEM lists to the 'Performa' years at Apple I have a perfoma 624a! Well I have a Performa 634...and it's a completely different machine! When Steve Jobs came back to Apple he reduced the model count to 4: PowerMac and PowerBook, iMac and iBook. That was the beginning of the resurgence, and for a good reason...it instantly clarified and simplified the choices. If I were king of the forest, all these myriad LEM lists would be reduced to a handful: 68K Macs (both laptop and desktops, because these are waaay obsolete by now.) OldWorld Macs (PowerPC old world machines, both laptops and desktops as above.) PowerPC desktops (covering pci-based PowerMacs from the iMac and beige 60x and G3 models up through the G5 models, both PowerMac and iMac.) PowerPC laptops (covering all New World Powerbooks and iBooks) Intel desktops (covering all intel-based desktop systems Mac Pros and iMacs) Intel laptops (covering all models of MacBook.) LEMSwap (of course!) There is NO REASON to ghettoize OS discussion into it's own groups; particularly as there are often hardware-specific issues along with the question, and as often as not there are questions like 'I need a web cam, what's a good suggestion?' That's not really tied to any hardware or software; so you would ask it on the list for your particular Mac. With fewer groups, we'd get more subscribers, and more eyeballs, on the problems. We'd have less duplication, and better answers for everyone. In practice, this really is happening already, the G3-5 group is the main generalist group now, as the PCIPowerMacs group used to be long ago, along with MacIntel and possibly the iMac group (which imo irrationally mixes cpu platforms.) I think that it would be far simpler to manage from the list nanny standpoint (you could have more nannies on each list) and make it a lot easier for folks to find the correct groups to join. (note, this is also a major reason many web forums are failing at this kind of support because there are so damn many of them at any given site. Even Apple's own support forums are probne to this problem.) -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On Feb 23, 2011, at 12:06 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Feb 23, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Fabian Fang wrote: Until Lion is released in the coming months, Leopard and Snow Leopard are the current and latest Mac OS. It makes good sense for members of the G-Group to join our Leopard Group to seek or provide assistance. Sorry to continue the meta-discussion, but I'd really like to add my 2 cents. No it does not. Looking at the posting rates and subscriber numbers of all these myriad LEM lists, it's very clear that almost all of the actual action is in just a handful of lists. Continual splitting of groups into finer and finer-grained buckets merely serves to dilute possible support and makes it very hard to find answers; I cannot count how many times I've seen someone ask a question on one list that was JUST ANSWERED, in great and satisfactory detail, on another list. A, the calming voice of reason! I happen to agree wholeheartedly. Chuck Davis -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On 2011/02/23 10:06, Bruce Johnson so eloquently wrote: If I were king of the forest, all these myriad LEM lists would be reduced to a handful: 68K Macs (both laptop and desktops, because these are waaay obsolete by now.) OldWorld Macs (PowerPC old world machines, both laptops and desktops as above.) PowerPC desktops (covering pci-based PowerMacs from the iMac and beige 60x and G3 models up through the G5 models, both PowerMac and iMac.) PowerPC laptops(covering all New World Powerbooks and iBooks) Intel desktops (covering all intel-based desktop systems Mac Pros and iMacs) Intel laptops (covering all models of MacBook.) LEMSwap (of course!) Sounds logical to me, you have my vote (not that this is a democracy). Tina -- iMac 20 USB 2 1.25GHz G4 2GB RAM GeForceFX5200 Ultra 64MB VRAM 10.4.11 PB G4 15 HR-DLSD 1.67GHz G4 2GB RAM Radeon 9700 128MB VRAM 10.5.8 Mac Pro Mid-2010 2.8 GHz QC 6 GB RAM Radeon HD 5770 1GB VRAM 10.6.6 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On Feb 23, 2011, at 11:06 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Feb 23, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Fabian Fang wrote: Until Lion is released in the coming months, Leopard and Snow Leopard are the current and latest Mac OS. It makes good sense for members of the G-Group to join our Leopard Group to seek or provide assistance. Sorry to continue the meta-discussion, but I'd really like to add my 2 cents. No it does not. Looking at the posting rates and subscriber numbers of all these myriad LEM lists, it's very clear that almost all of the actual action is in just a handful of lists. Continual splitting of groups into finer and finer-grained buckets merely serves to dilute possible support and makes it very hard to find answers; I cannot count how many times I've seen someone ask a question on one list that was JUST ANSWERED, in great and satisfactory detail, on another list. I like to analogize the current state of the LEM lists to the 'Performa' years at Apple I have a perfoma 624a! Well I have a Performa 634...and it's a completely different machine! When Steve Jobs came back to Apple he reduced the model count to 4: PowerMac and PowerBook, iMac and iBook. That was the beginning of the resurgence, and for a good reason...it instantly clarified and simplified the choices. If I were king of the forest, all these myriad LEM lists would be reduced to a handful: 68K Macs (both laptop and desktops, because these are waaay obsolete by now.) OldWorld Macs (PowerPC old world machines, both laptops and desktops as above.) PowerPC desktops (covering pci-based PowerMacs from the iMac and beige 60x and G3 models up through the G5 models, both PowerMac and iMac.) PowerPC laptops (covering all New World Powerbooks and iBooks) Intel desktops (covering all intel-based desktop systems Mac Pros and iMacs) Intel laptops (covering all models of MacBook.) LEMSwap (of course!) I'd even cut it some more but that's a great start! 1. 68K of all flavors 2. Pre G Power Macs of all flavors 3. G Power Macs of all flavors 4. Intel Macs of all flavors 5. Software group maybe Consolidation always results in greater efficiencies. After spending a good part of my life working with process(s), simplification is always the quickest route to solutions. Just my 4¢ worth... JT -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
I am subscribed to 8 and I am finding it an administrative nightmare organising them in a way that keeps me up to date but doesn't fill my inbox up. I haven't decided on the best approach as yet. Is 'forum' a dirty word in LEM land? Jonathan -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On Feb 23, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Jonathan Smith wrote: I am subscribed to 8 and I am finding it an administrative nightmare organising them in a way that keeps me up to date but doesn't fill my inbox up. I haven't decided on the best approach as yet. Is 'forum' a dirty word in LEM land? I personally dislike forums, I end up spending half my time trying to find actual information among the hopping smileys, giant avatars, unnecessary screen candy, having to guess at which page of 345 the actual answer to my question is on, and the generally piss-poor search and organization of nearly every forum site I've ever had the misfortune of trying to use. That said, LEM DOES have forums. The great thing about Google Groups is that you can swing whichever way suits your fancy: subscribe to them as individual emails, subscribe to them as digests, or not get them as email at all, but as a forum on the groups.google.com site. Just log in with the address associated with your delivery address (in your case it would just be logging in with your regular gmail credentials) and you're taken to the web interface to the groups. Voila! -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On 2011/02/23 10:36, Jonathan Smith so eloquently wrote: I am subscribed to 8 and I am finding it an administrative nightmare organising them in a way that keeps me up to date but doesn't fill my inbox up. I haven't decided on the best approach as yet. I use filters to sort them into the mailboxes CPU, Notebooks, OS, and Swap. Works pretty good for me, hopefully you can come up with a method that works for you too. Tina -- iMac 20 USB 2 1.25GHz G4 2GB RAM GeForceFX5200 Ultra 64MB VRAM 10.4.11 PB G4 15 HR-DLSD 1.67GHz G4 2GB RAM Radeon 9700 128MB VRAM 10.5.8 Mac Pro Mid-2010 2.8 GHz QC 6 GB RAM Radeon HD 5770 1GB VRAM 10.6.6 -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: Sorry to continue the meta-discussion, but I'd really like to add my 2 cents. Please note that, in the above subject line, my message was in response to a request for explanation of the posting problem to our Leopard Group. For other discussions, please start your own threads. I have no knowledge as to whether the LEM Group Owner reads messages on the G-Group, or any other group. He is the sole Decider with respect to setting up LEM Groups. Over the years, on our internal lemnannies group, there have been discussions and suggestions about combination/realignment of groups. There has been no indication whatsoever, whether he feels any such merits consideration or action. Those who have strong feelings against our splintered LEM Groups can always unsubscribe and join a single All Things Mac group, such as the IOMUG Yahoo Group, to which I personally subscribe. I predict that you will soon want to return here. Fabian Fang LEM G-Group Manager -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
At 10:12 AM -0800 2/23/2011, Fabian Fang wrote: I have no knowledge as to whether the LEM Group Owner reads messages on the G-Group, or any other group. He is the sole Decider with respect to setting up LEM Groups. Over the years, on our internal lemnannies group, there have been discussions and suggestions about combination/realignment of groups. There has been no indication whatsoever, whether he feels any such merits consideration or action. Those who have strong feelings against our splintered LEM Groups can always unsubscribe and join a single All Things Mac group, such as the IOMUG Yahoo Group, to which I personally subscribe. I predict that you will soon want to return here. Are you saying that lemdan isn't going to address this issue, so we should just go create a new structure ourselves then encourage people to join it? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
At 10:06 AM -0700 2/23/2011, Bruce Johnson wrote: Sorry to continue the meta-discussion, but I'd really like to add my 2 cents. Um, yea. My 2 cents also: what Bruce said. If I were king of the forest, all these myriad LEM lists would be reduced to a handful: 68K Macs (both laptop and desktops, because these are waaay obsolete by now.) OldWorld Macs (PowerPC old world machines, both laptops and desktops as above.) PowerPC desktops (covering pci-based PowerMacs from the iMac and beige 60x and G3 models up through the G5 models, both PowerMac and iMac.) PowerPC laptops (covering all New World Powerbooks and iBooks) Intel desktops (covering all intel-based desktop systems Mac Pros and iMacs) Intel laptops (covering all models of MacBook.) LEMSwap (of course!) AND make sure the lists can be searched all at once! Right now, they can't be because even their names have nothing in common. With fewer groups, we'd get more subscribers, and more eyeballs, on the problems. We'd have less duplication, and better answers for everyone. And fewer people simply leaving because they didn't get an answer or a good answer from one of the micro groups. I think that it would be far simpler to manage from the list nanny standpoint (you could have more nannies on each list) and make it a lot easier for folks to find the correct groups to join. (note, this is also a major reason many web forums are failing at this kind of support because there are so damn many of them at any given site. Even Apple's own support forums are probne to this problem.) At 11:22 AM -0600 2/23/2011, James E. Therrault wrote: 1. 68K of all flavors 2. Pre G Power Macs of all flavors 3. G Power Macs of all flavors 4. Intel Macs of all flavors 5. Software group maybe Too many groups, I think. 1. LEM Mac Hardware 2. LEM Mac Software 3. LEM Swap 4. LEM Everything Else (chatting and such) ...and to be honest I'm iffy about 1 2; thinking that should just be one big happy froup. At 5:36 PM + 2/23/2011, Jonathan Smith wrote: I am subscribed to 8 and I am finding it an administrative nightmare organising them in a way that keeps me up to date but doesn't fill my inbox up. I haven't decided on the best approach as yet. I'm subscribed to them all. IMO the best way to handle them is to just not try to sort them, other than by subject. They're so intermixed anyway, creating or maintaining any segregation in your mail client just wastes time and inhibits searching. I filter all the LEM stuff en-mass into one mailbox, and the Swap stuff in another. Then I tackle it top down. Done. Is 'forum' a dirty word in LEM land? IMO, it's a dirty word period, on par with top posting. Forum = web based thing for newbies that are too delicate to handle real email, designed to be pretty, not efficient. I can blow thru 200 emails in the time it takes me deal with a couple forum postings. (Insert standard obligatory rant about how top posting slows down the whole process). FWIW, - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
I'd even cut it some more but that's a great start! 1. 68K of all flavors 2. Pre G Power Macs of all flavors 3. G Power Macs of all flavors 4. Intel Macs of all flavors 5. Software group maybe Consolidation always results in greater efficiencies. After spending a good part of my life working with process(s), simplification is always the quickest route to solutions. Just my 4¢ worth... JT I would cut it even further considering most people use the g3-g5 list server anyhow. I would make it thus: 1. LEM Support List 2. Lem Swap List 3. Lem Swap Feedback -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: [Manager Comment] Re: Posting Problem
Previously, at 10:06 AM -0700 2/23/11, as Bruce Johnson so eloquently wrote: On Feb 23, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Fabian Fang wrote: Until Lion is released in the coming months, Leopard and Snow Leopard are the current and latest Mac OS. It makes good sense for members of the G-Group to join our Leopard Group to seek or provide assistance. Sorry to continue the meta-discussion, but I'd really like to add my 2 cents. (snip) If I were king of the forest, all these myriad LEM lists would be reduced to a handful: 68K Macs (both laptop and desktops, because these are waaay obsolete by now.) OldWorld Macs (PowerPC old world machines, both laptops and desktops as above.) PowerPC desktops (covering pci-based PowerMacs from the iMac and beige 60x and G3 models up through the G5 models, both PowerMac and iMac.) PowerPC laptops(covering all New World Powerbooks and iBooks) Intel desktops (covering all intel-based desktop systems Mac Pros and iMacs) Intel laptops (covering all models of MacBook.) LEMSwap (of course!) There is NO REASON to ghettoize OS discussion into it's own groups; particularly as there are often hardware-specific issues along with the question, and as often as not there are questions like 'I need a web cam, what's a good suggestion?' That's not really tied to any hardware or software; so you would ask it on the list for your particular Mac. (snip) I passed the message on to Dan Knight lowend...@gmail.com, which has always served me well in the past. Paul -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
