Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi. I never actually said that a narrator shouldn't! be paid for their performance, only that the relative prices of audio books are! actually way more. This might be because Uk licencing costs extra, or just that you are not familiar with the prices of paperbacks. David gemmel's knights of dark renown for instance I recently found was seven pounds (about twelve dollars), in print, but £57 as a digital download. Same goes for the harry potter books. Getting onto games however, I'm not personally convinced everyone in the audio games community does! know that developers are such small companies, especially those who pirate games who do not participate in lists or forums, hence my suggestion to at least give people the bennifit of the doubt. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Tom. Actually, my comments about audio books were based on realistic pricing that I have seen on price comparison sites, as well as the prices I have myself paid for people like audible.co.uk. Tis might be because Uk publication rights cost more than us ones, (there are lots of things that are simply not available in this country), however that comment was not theoretical. i never said that paying an extra five usd for an audio book would be something I'd see as unreasonable, but when for example a copy of David Gemmell's book Knights of Dark renown would cost me 7 pounds to buy in print as a paperback, but 57 in audio that is when i question company motives. My assessment of prophit is also based on the fact that I do know! actors and professionals who reccord audio material, and they are not actually seeing the prophits from the sales that go to pay their sallary at all. They are usually paid a set fixed income for the hours that they spend working on the reccording, and that is that, they get no steak in royalties or prophits. This is indeed one of my main problems with so many major coorporations, that instead of their prophits being distributed equally among employees less the percentages that go into further production, costs are cut by paying fixed sallaries, even to professional persons, while those at the top of the tree give themselves millions in bonuses. there are better examples, Google for instance used to work on a much more share holding basis, but that is by no means the norm, and don't forget all those people like microsoft who drive their own costs down by having basic production of goods done in countries with no minimmum wage or fair labour laws, so that they can keep sallaries as low as possible. Bare in mind that while I do make economic cryticisms, they are not just based entirely upon theory, but on research I myself have done as well. getting back to games, when i spoke of professional image I did mean impersonal, rather than quick responses to tech enquirieis, being available etc, but the over all image and personality of the website and writing. to take an example, while it is obviously quite important and natural to present information on your games and products in as clear a way, if there is no information about yourself, why you write games, no jokes etc, then a person has nobody in mind as a single creator of the games and is thus more likely to engage in piracy. this is actually a skill that it is valuable to learn in any sort of personal presentation, whether your a doctor, a lawyer, or indeed an actor, since if you just appear as someone from whome people get a service, well people will think! of you as a machine. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
The reason why those that record audible books get no royalties is because they are not the one that wrote the book. They are paid to read the book and that is just a job. You really study that and still don't know how royalties on products works? At 04:10 AM 4/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Tom. Actually, my comments about audio books were based on realistic pricing that I have seen on price comparison sites, as well as the prices I have myself paid for people like audible.co.uk. Tis might be because Uk publication rights cost more than us ones, (there are lots of things that are simply not available in this country), however that comment was not theoretical. i never said that paying an extra five usd for an audio book would be something I'd see as unreasonable, but when for example a copy of David Gemmell's book Knights of Dark renown would cost me 7 pounds to buy in print as a paperback, but 57 in audio that is when i question company motives. My assessment of prophit is also based on the fact that I do know! actors and professionals who reccord audio material, and they are not actually seeing the prophits from the sales that go to pay their sallary at all. They are usually paid a set fixed income for the hours that they spend working on the reccording, and that is that, they get no steak in royalties or prophits. This is indeed one of my main problems with so many major coorporations, that instead of their prophits being distributed equally among employees less the percentages that go into further production, costs are cut by paying fixed sallaries, even to professional persons, while those at the top of the tree give themselves millions in bonuses. there are better examples, Google for instance used to work on a much more share holding basis, but that is by no means the norm, and don't forget all those people like microsoft who drive their own costs down by having basic production of goods done in countries with no minimmum wage or fair labour laws, so that they can keep sallaries as low as possible. Bare in mind that while I do make economic cryticisms, they are not just based entirely upon theory, but on research I myself have done as well. getting back to games, when i spoke of professional image I did mean impersonal, rather than quick responses to tech enquirieis, being available etc, but the over all image and personality of the website and writing. to take an example, while it is obviously quite important and natural to present information on your games and products in as clear a way, if there is no information about yourself, why you write games, no jokes etc, then a person has nobody in mind as a single creator of the games and is thus more likely to engage in piracy. this is actually a skill that it is valuable to learn in any sort of personal presentation, whether your a doctor, a lawyer, or indeed an actor, since if you just appear as someone from whome people get a service, well people will think! of you as a machine. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
I've been very intrigued with this awesome discussion on the question of piracy and motivations. Keep up the excellent thinking and civil discourse. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents worth regarding Dark's acertion regarding people pirating games out of a misperception of large corporate profiteering. This kind of immoral rationalisation is actually pretty widespread out there. I've introduced many people to the whole idea of audio games and found that unless I made a point of telling them about the individuals behind the games, they presumed the existence of a large company employing untold hundreds of people. Why would it do any harm at all, they would reason, if I give X person a copy of a game he/she couldn't afford or wouldn't have thought to buy? I'm pretty confident that this line of dubious reasoning has indeed cost our game developers over the years This is even more the case in the larger macro-economics of mainstream games for sighted people. People simply aren't usually that informed about what goes into creating the magic they take for granted and therefore have unrealistic expectations. In the larger companies, we don't usually have situations where these disappointments fall directly on the shoulders of game creators. Other departments are there to insulate them from this. Not so for our game developers. They're often working a regular job and finding out the hard way that their hobby has a way of turning into a nightmare of unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately, our community has the double curse of very low income coupled with a significant number of younger naïve people who just don't understand how things really work. This clashes sharply with the compassionate but often overworked individuals who care enough to develop games for blind people and/or make games accessible. Other than having a meeting ground like this and getting as many developers and customers participating in discussions, I'm not certain there's much that can be done about this. In my experience, once someone has taken time to educate these formerly naïve people, they tend not to be problematic. It takes time and sometimes great patience. On 4/25/13, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: The reason why those that record audible books get no royalties is because they are not the one that wrote the book. They are paid to read the book and that is just a job. You really study that and still don't know how royalties on products works? At 04:10 AM 4/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Tom. Actually, my comments about audio books were based on realistic pricing that I have seen on price comparison sites, as well as the prices I have myself paid for people like audible.co.uk. Tis might be because Uk publication rights cost more than us ones, (there are lots of things that are simply not available in this country), however that comment was not theoretical. i never said that paying an extra five usd for an audio book would be something I'd see as unreasonable, but when for example a copy of David Gemmell's book Knights of Dark renown would cost me 7 pounds to buy in print as a paperback, but 57 in audio that is when i question company motives. My assessment of prophit is also based on the fact that I do know! actors and professionals who reccord audio material, and they are not actually seeing the prophits from the sales that go to pay their sallary at all. They are usually paid a set fixed income for the hours that they spend working on the reccording, and that is that, they get no steak in royalties or prophits. This is indeed one of my main problems with so many major coorporations, that instead of their prophits being distributed equally among employees less the percentages that go into further production, costs are cut by paying fixed sallaries, even to professional persons, while those at the top of the tree give themselves millions in bonuses. there are better examples, Google for instance used to work on a much more share holding basis, but that is by no means the norm, and don't forget all those people like microsoft who drive their own costs down by having basic production of goods done in countries with no minimmum wage or fair labour laws, so that they can keep sallaries as low as possible. Bare in mind that while I do make economic cryticisms, they are not just based entirely upon theory, but on research I myself have done as well. getting back to games, when i spoke of professional image I did mean impersonal, rather than quick responses to tech enquirieis, being available etc, but the over all image and personality of the website and writing. to take an example, while it is obviously quite important and natural to present information on your games and products in as clear a way, if there is no information about yourself, why you write games, no jokes etc, then a person has nobody in mind as a single creator of the games and is thus more likely to engage in piracy. this is actually a skill that it
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Dark, First, let me say you guys in the U.K. are seriously getting ripped off or things are darned expensive, but I can't imagine paying $57 or more for an audio book. Just out of curiosity I checked Amazon.com and found the complete unabridged version of Knights of Dark Renown on CD for $41 and that is $16 less than the price you quoted on a physical media like CD. I didn't check Audible, but I suspect it is less since they tend to be a lot cheaper than Amazon.com because of being a digital download rather than being on physical media like tape or CD. Still, it sounds to me like you guys in the U.K. are getting some extra markup somewhere. However, as to your point about the assessment of profit that is quite correct. That's generally the way it works with people hired to do acting etc. The company hires an actor or actress to do some acting for a set fee specified in their contract and that is that. Once the production gets sold the company retains both the royalties and profits for the production. Right or wrong it is something both parties generally agree to before hand. For example, let us say I write an audio game and hire a few actors and actresses to do a few lines for the game. I agree to pay them $100 each for their voice work. I pay them in advance for the voice work $100, and a few months later release the game and it makes $5000 over the course of the first few weeks. Should I then begin sending the voice actors and actresses a check their percentage of the profit when we already agreed on their payment for their work? This is the way most companies view employment. The person hired to do a job is only the employee and they agree to their wages. Once they leave the employers company they do not retain the rights to their work because the agreed to turn any and all intellectual property rights over to the company in their contract. If companies didn't do this they would constantly be paying money out for royalties and could run the risk of someone simply leaving the company and taking their product with them leaving the company with nothing. For instance, assume I got a job with Capcom and I came up with an awesome game called Super Dynaman.This game makes millions, and I decide I'm not making enough money since it was my idea. I take Capcom to court suing for a bigger cut of the pie. If companies didn't protect themselves by retaining the rights to the products and services they sell they'd have employees clambering for increasing bigger cuts of the profit and ultimately that would be destructive to the company as a whole. However, I do take your point that all to often the CEOs and other fat cats high up in management keep the majority of the profits for themselves rather than redistributing the profits more evenly among its employees. I agree that is really unfair since many corporate execs would rather line their pockets with millions while their employees get practically nothing and have to scratch and scrape for a living wage as well as things like health care. While I can freely agree this is wrong I think we should blame the people responsible such as the execs who love money more than care for their fellow man rather than making general statements of the evils of corporations. Anyway, I take your point about being personable rather than sounding like a machine. I don't know too many audio game developers who really have this problem, but I do agree I would work with someone who has a personality than someone who sounds like a machine. Commander Data has more personality than some of the corporate types I have dealt with. :D On 4/25/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Actually, my comments about audio books were based on realistic pricing that I have seen on price comparison sites, as well as the prices I have myself paid for people like audible.co.uk. Tis might be because Uk publication rights cost more than us ones, (there are lots of things that are simply not available in this country), however that comment was not theoretical. i never said that paying an extra five usd for an audio book would be something I'd see as unreasonable, but when for example a copy of David Gemmell's book Knights of Dark renown would cost me 7 pounds to buy in print as a paperback, but 57 in audio that is when i question company motives. My assessment of prophit is also based on the fact that I do know! actors and professionals who reccord audio material, and they are not actually seeing the prophits from the sales that go to pay their sallary at all. They are usually paid a set fixed income for the hours that they spend working on the reccording, and that is that, they get no steak in royalties or prophits. This is indeed one of my main problems with so many major coorporations, that instead of their prophits being distributed equally among employees less the percentages that go into further production, costs are cut by paying fixed sallaries, even to
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
well we had to fight for those, but yeah, looking for work as you would usually do won't get you in if you go via the front. and if you go by the official book it doesn't work either necessarily. The only way I have found is do a lot for free or low pay as long as others see your work or you have friends that can get y ou work or know someone that can. At 01:27 PM 4/24/2013, you wrote: It's a real shame when you cannot afford to try to better yourself. Although the government claims to want you to get a job and work, you find that you are worse off if you do, thanks to the elimination of necessary benefits such as health care, food stamps and so on. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames Hi Thomas, You know I love writing games. Maybe it would have been nice to be able to make some money at it. But even early on I heard that there was not much money to make. But one major reason that I have never taken any money for any of my games is because I can not afford to. You know if I got any money for my games it would then lower my food stamps, raise my rent, maybe kick me off of my medical insurance and stuff like that. Not to mention just all of the hassle of reporting it all the time. And if somehow I released a game that really sold good and I made a whole bunch of money in one quarter, I might even get kicked off of disability income. And that was not easy to get back on to after the last time that I had a job and went off of it. Oh yeah, and I think that a hobby is more fun than a job. BFN Jim There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi tom. another crytical issue I find with piracy is actually who! gets the money. if I buy a Cd for say ten pounds, only about a pound of that will go to the actual musicians, and that is even assuming the musicians in question earn a royalty on individual cd sales and weren't given a fixed amount by the publishers. Therefore, if you copy a Cd, the prophets you most affect are those of the distributors, promoters and publishers, not of the musicians, indeed I've heard various professional musicians say they make more sales through people copying cds from their friends and then wanting to buy the next one themselves than they do through standard adverts. Same with books, indeed even more so, you don't pay the author, but the publisher. One reason I think people often pirate games, is that people do not realize there is! no large distribution company involved, just one or two people working themselves, since as you pointed out, activision, E games are huge coorporations with massive markup, who pay their programmers a fixed income while the prophit goes either into developing more prophit or into the pockets of the management, indeed I am told by someone who worked at one point for E games, that as programming jobs they are deeply unsatisfying since you basically get no creative leeway anymore, since all of the design is done long before the game is programmed, and the rpogrammers are basically just geach given a very menial individual task to do, (the days when someone like Inafune could design Mega man in his spare time are long gone). Generally blind people are not treated well by coorporations (the tale of myself and trying to obtain accessible scifi books despite Uk copywrite law and the publishing industry is a long and unpleasant one), not to mention all those massive multinational chains that do much at all for access even in a small way, heck, do mcdonalds have braille menues? I'm not condoning the actions of people who pirate games, I'm just thinking that perhaps one major motivating factor is that they do not realize that they are pirating games made by individuals, not! by massive companies. One suggestion i have therefore would be to include in the manual of any game basically a short mini bbio about the developers, why they made the game, what they did, what they do in their spare time etc. Yes, many people will skip this, and yes, there are likely to be some scumbags out there, but equally if a person reads a story of an actual real other person who makes games, it puts them in a much worse position morally, since then it shows them whome! they are actually pirating games from, and it is possible that people will then come back and offer the money, or perhaps pay for the next title. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
wow Dallas, that's awsome, i should move to australia. the Uk is a little better than the us, but we still have some means tested bennifits. So you get your disability bennifits, what are now called pip's, for mobility and dayly living stuff, but then you have others such as income support and if you are in government housing housing bennifit that you would loose if you made money, and while theoretically you could reapplie for these if you made a big lot of cash then lost it, often they reffuse second applications. this is something Ive actually considdered myself, since it seems probable in the future I will either publish a book, or (increasingly as it looks currently), a cd. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Dark, *snip* if I buy a Cd for say ten pounds, only about a pound of that will go to the actual musicians, and that is even assuming the musicians in question earn a royalty on individual cd sales and weren't given a fixed amount by the publishers. Therefore, if you copy a Cd, the prophets you most affect are those of the distributors, promoters and publishers, not of the musicians, indeed I've heard various professional musicians say they make more sales through people copying cds from their friends and then wanting to buy the next one themselves than they do through standard adverts. Same with books, indeed even more so, you don't pay the author, but the publisher. *snip* That line of thinking is essentially saying, it's perfectly fine to steal small amounts from several people, but not fine to steal a larger amount from an individual. This is highly flawed thinking. And, the music industry has and continues to change rapidly. More and more artists, even highly popular ones, are cutting ties with the record industry and selling their own music via iTunes, Amazon MP3, etc. Publishing is a very expensive endeavor. While I agree that author's should get more for digital publishing than they do, it costs money to manufacture physical books, purchase materials, binding, etc. Not to mention the editors who proofread, the artists who create cover art, and so forth. Ultimately, it is a naive and ignorant line of thinking. There are problems with many industries, and piracy exacerbates those problems. *snip* One reason I think people often pirate games, is that people do not realize there is! no large distribution company involved, just one or two people working themselves, since as you pointed out, activision, E games are huge coorporations with massive markup, who pay their programmers a fixed income while the prophit goes either into developing more prophit or into the pockets of the management, indeed I am told by someone who worked at one point for E games, that as programming jobs they are deeply unsatisfying since you basically get no creative leeway anymore, since all of the design is done long before the game is programmed, and the rpogrammers are basically just geach given a very menial individual task to do, (the days when someone like Inafune could design Mega man in his spare time are long gone). *snip* I don't think the average person puts that much thought into it…if any at all. Something is available for free, they'll take it for free. And, those days are not long gone. On the contrary, the iOS and Mac App Stores, and to a lesser degree the Android Marketplace, have brought that kind of design back with a vengeance, especially with games. Many of the hugely popular mobile apps are made by single individuals or very small companies. Angry Birds? Instapaper? Twitterific? THe list goes on and on. By giving individual developers and small companies a safe and simple mechanism to sell their wares which also helps limit casual piracy without inconveniencing honest users, Apple has brought this back in a big way. You should catch up with the times, and I think you'll like the direction that things are going. *snip* Generally blind people are not treated well by coorporations (the tale of myself and trying to obtain accessible scifi books despite Uk copywrite law and the publishing industry is a long and unpleasant one), not to mention all those massive multinational chains that do much at all for access even in a small way, heck, do mcdonalds have braille menues? *snip* I have no love for giant corporations, but I think you're putting far too fine a point on all of this. The vast majority of people who pirate casually are not doing it because of grand philosophical ideals, or out of some sort of mis-placed sense of vengeance on faceless corporations that have done them some wrong. They're doing it because they want something right now and they can't afford it right now. *snip* I'm not condoning the actions of people who pirate games, I'm just thinking that perhaps one major motivating factor is that they do not realize that they are pirating games made by individuals, not! by massive companies. *snip* I think the community is very much aware that audio games are made by single individuals and/or small companies. I think Draconis has the most number of folks involved in the making of our titles in various capacities and to various degrees, and even we have only a handful. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi josh. i'm afraid I disagree on distribution completely, since if you look at the markup that goes into prophit, even for something with little to no cost it is unbelieveable. i would be quite happy paying individual people, it is paying massive companies that I disagree with. i do agree amazon mp3 and the like are good ways of paying individual musicians, but they still only cover a certain percentage of what happens, also I am not absolutely convinced by apple's absolute control model since if Apple doesn't think what you've got will sell, well tough. While paying a small percentage to apple for ful distribution digitally is better than paying a record company, it is still not ideal and still leaves far too much control in the hands of one organization, and just! on that organizations terms. while I know you are huge fans of everything Apple, I myself am a little too suspect of company motivations when they have that level of control. Microsoft were bad enough, but at least distribution was comparatively free. Myself, I'm not convinced fair distribution method will ever be achieved until it is controled by a none prophit organization so that individuals can! get paid for their work directly without massive markup going to the middle men. Since however this discussion is distinctly not related to games we'd better stop. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Dark, It actually is very much related to games, as we were talking about the reasons for audio game piracy. In your eagerness to offer philosophical talking points, you entirely missed the point I was making. Hence why I referenced Android as well. The days of small and individual developers creating and designing games and apps is returning with a vengeance, not *just* on Apple platforms, but on others as well. Distribution has never been free. This is simply ignorance. Before the Internet, one needed to produce physical discs, be that floppies or optical discs, to sell games. Later, the Internet came along, and one must purchase server space and bandwidth to host titles for download, pay for credit card transaction services, and so on. These things are neither free, nor cheap. The overhead is actually more expensive for us to offer Windows titles that Mac or iOS ones with Apple's fee. Plenty of non-profit organizations are just as bad or worse than corporations, so that does not solve the problem either. And, not all corporations are evil. The world is not made up of black and white. It is rendered in infinite shades of gray. I do think you need to, whether you agree with them or not, become more educated on Apple's models if you're going to try to debate the merits of them. Apple does not exercise a complete control model, as you put it. This is a common misconception usually banded about by folks in Microsoft's or Android/Linux camps, and is based on a number of falsehoods and/or exaggerations. Apple is a huge contributor to open source, for instance. Both webkit and the Darwin projects were spearheaded by Apple, and indeed, many of Apple's competitors freely use webkit in competing products. The Mac is not locked down in the way that iOS is. Android is swamped with malware because of the open model it employs with virtually no oversight. You couldn't pay me enough to use an Android phone, even if I wasn't an Apple user, because of the numbers of malware infested apps in their official marketplace. Extremes are bad. All open is bad…all closed is bad. Apple has found a sweet spot that works well, in my opinion. As I said above, there are infinite shades of gray, and some very good reasons why Apple does things the way they do that benefit the users directly. There are some decisions that Apple has made that I do not agree with, too, but I am able to weigh out these various pros and cons individually and determine if the pros still outweigh the cons. They do. Just as I don't hate everything Microsoft does, either, though I do not use their products on a day-to-day basis. Ultimately, the main point is whether or not blind gamers are pirating games because of philosophical reasons, as you assert. I think that idea is ridiculous. I understand that you have some strongly held philosophical beliefs of your own, and that's fine…but they do not apply to this situation. On Apr 24, 2013, at 10:06 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi josh. i'm afraid I disagree on distribution completely, since if you look at the markup that goes into prophit, even for something with little to no cost it is unbelieveable. i would be quite happy paying individual people, it is paying massive companies that I disagree with. i do agree amazon mp3 and the like are good ways of paying individual musicians, but they still only cover a certain percentage of what happens, also I am not absolutely convinced by apple's absolute control model since if Apple doesn't think what you've got will sell, well tough. While paying a small percentage to apple for ful distribution digitally is better than paying a record company, it is still not ideal and still leaves far too much control in the hands of one organization, and just! on that organizations terms. while I know you are huge fans of everything Apple, I myself am a little too suspect of company motivations when they have that level of control. Microsoft were bad enough, but at least distribution was comparatively free. Myself, I'm not convinced fair distribution method will ever be achieved until it is controled by a none prophit organization so that individuals can! get paid for their work directly without massive markup going to the middle men. Since however this discussion is distinctly not related to games we'd better stop. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
HI josh. I freely admit my knolidge of apple's business structure is not exact, though even from owning an Iphone I can draw conclusions. I do not say all coorporations are evil, they are simply in pursuit of prophit which, as marx stated is a none moral system from which you cannot derive morality, and what concerns me as a moral objection is A, the practices, B, the denial of freedom, and C, the actual markup gained by distribution services. you are absolutely correct that the internet should! give an easy method for distribution, yet why is it still the case that many audio books (even when unabridged), are five or ten times more than print originals? even when bought digitally. The same goes for music, ultimately prices are jacked up by people because they can, and it is those people, the publishers, distributors and other hangers on whome I, and indeed others do not respect, rather than the individual creators behind books, software, music etc. Getting this back to games and software however, my point was simply that people's general attitudes to coorporations is a lot worse than that towards individuals. This is a general moral point, look at for example the amount of charities who get your money by appealing not to over all economic figures, but to individual stories of suffering in a given situation. People empathize with other people, it's a bsic psychological traite. therefore, if developers, rather than appearing ass! simply a faceless organization show themselves to actually be individuals, there is a proportion of people who will pay for products on that basis. This is doubly true for the blind community i've found, given that it has in the past been the main game producers, capcom, nintendo, E games etc, who have actively denied access, been unavailable to discuss access etc, while it is individual indi developers (who I will fully agree are on the rise thank goodness), who have been most willing to discuss access matters and create audio games. As you said yourself, the world is neither black or white, therefore why not give the bennifit of the doubt to at least those people who do! have a sense of individual responsability. In part this is also a cultural matter, since generally speaking today a prfessional immage, tends to mean an impersonal one, thus most people who create games strive for that sort of image, and so probably appear less individual than they actually are. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Dark, Just about done with this, as i have work to do, but just a couple quick responses here… *snip* you are absolutely correct that the internet should! give an easy method for distribution, yet why is it still the case that many audio books (even when unabridged), are five or ten times more than print originals? even when bought digitally. *snip* They aren't. At least, not when distributed on the Internet. On the contrary, most audio books bought via Audible.com, at least her win the states, are pretty comparable to buying a print book, or only slightly more. I seldom pay more than $12 or so for an audio book, and I am a voracious reader who reads almost exclusively audio books purchased online. THere is usually a slight markup, because more people are involved in the production of audio books. While the author should be paid, so should the narrator who performs the book, the record engineer who does the recording, etc. You are not looking at the big picture. *snip* The same goes for music, ultimately prices are jacked up by people because they can, and it is those people, the publishers, distributors and other hangers on whome I, and indeed others do not respect, rather than the individual creators behind books, software, music etc. *snip* I'd argue that the narrator's performance is at least as important as the author's words in most audio books, particularly fiction. You seem to be implying that they are not entitled to be recognized for their contribution to the product. *snip* Getting this back to games and software however, my point was simply that people's general attitudes to coorporations is a lot worse than that towards individuals. This is a general moral point, look at for example the amount of charities who get your money by appealing not to over all economic figures, but to individual stories of suffering in a given situation. People empathize with other people, it's a bsic psychological traite. therefore, if developers, rather than appearing ass! simply a faceless organization show themselves to actually be individuals, there is a proportion of people who will pay for products on that basis. *snip* I understand your point. My point is that I do not believe that the audio game community views the audio game developers in the same way that they view Microsoft. They know we are small companies and/or individuals. Your broader point is fine, it is the application to the audio game industry that is flawed. Regardless, I have an idea that may help address the underlying issues that are at the heart of this problem for the audio game industry, and I have sent these on to Tom to see what he thinks. We'll see. For now, I have to get on with things. *smile* --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hello Jim I'm in the same boat as you. that is why when I get better at programing I'll be sharing the games I right for free. It's always better to do something for fun then be persherd for time or the fact that the game that You wrote this time might not be as good as the last one. then you have to cut your losses andtry to sevive on what ever you made on this one, and hope that the next one is better. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Dark, I've got a few comments here I think need to be voiced as it seems you and I have some serious intellectual differences in the way we view economics and business in general, and I don't think it is possible to have an intelligent discussion until those differences are voiced. I know that you have a deep interest in philosophy and have a doctorate in philosophical studies. As a result a lot of your comments are theoretical discussions of ethics of what people should and should not do, but shows a complete unawareness of the practical side of business and economics in a capitalist society. For example, you asked why audio books cost five to ten times the print original even when purchased digitally. Well, in many cases audio books, at least in the United States, aren't nearly that high. A service like /Audible sells digital versions of audio books for only a few dollars more than the print paperback or hardback book it is based on. I don't think paying $5 extra for an accessible audio book is anything serious to complain about. If you are really paying five to 10 times for an audio book then perhaps you are getting them from the wrong place. However, the basic reason audio books cost more than print books is the company producing it has to pay the narrator reading the book, they have to pay the sound engineers recording the book, and they have to pay someone to do the post production of the digital copy such as editing, mixing, etc. If it is available on a site like Audible they have to charge a bit for hard drive space to store all their audio books as well as pay for bandwidth because every internet download isn't free. Someone has to pay for the bandwidth and transfer fees. Point being there are all kinds of costs involved in converting that print book into a digital audio book which you have not taken into consideration. The point I want to make here is simply that all too often you voice some very strong opinions towards companies essentially accusing them for being greedy and immoral when not taking into consideration the practical and very rational reasons for charging what they do for their products and services. Often times in order for a company to turn a profit they have to be able to pay all of their employees salaries, health care benefits, as well as any other operating costs which may effect the cost of the final product. That's just how it works in business. You have to spend money to make money. Anyway, as far as developers who want to be semi-professional or professional appearing impersonal I disagree. I believe a person can be quite professional while not being too impersonal if they want to have that sort of image. After all, what exactly is considered professional here? To me being professional is developing stable software to the best of my abilities and not selling my customers sloppily written and poorly designed software. To me being professional is offering prompt email or phone service for a product I sold them within reason of course. Being professional might be kindly turning down a suggestion someone gives without being mean or nasty about it. In other words to me being professional is simply having good business ethics and has nothing to do with being impersonal or aloof. Of course, there is a big difference between the way a small business like USA Games runs our business and the way someone like Nintendo, Sony, or Capcom run their businesses. Major corporations like Sony, Capcom, Nintendo, Microsoft, etc have millions of customers all over the world. No one person can deal with the sheer number of customers complaints, suggestions, questions, etc so they hire people to fulfill those duties. Unfortunately, that does often result in the personnel being impersonal, and unable to do anything about certain policies like accessibility because you aren't speaking to the management directly. With a company like USA Games most of the messages go directly to myself or in the case of sales my wife might take over and process the orders. However, since it is a company of two its not difficult to reach the owner, yours truly, which makes a big difference. Then again, I only expect to have maybe a thousand customers tops instead of the millions that Nintendo, Sony, etc have to deal with. Major difference there, and since I have less customers to deal with I can afford to be on this list and chat with customers directly. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Josh, Well said. I don't think I could have stated that any better than you already have. As you pointed out the world is made up of infinite shades of gray, and extremes of any kind are always bad for the end user. I've experienced this often enough in my own life to know this to be true. The problem is that people who see things in shades of black and white can not see the errors in their own thinking. Anyway, when it comes to the issue of piracy I definitely don't think people pirate software simply out of some philosophical reason. There are more often as not some circumstantial reasons for the piracy that may even seem justified once they are known. Those reasons may not be justifiable from an ethics point of view, but certainly are justifiable from the pirates viewpoint. It would be in our best interests as developers to discover those reasons and see what if anything we can do about addressing them.. Cheers! On 4/24/13, Draconis i...@dracoent.com wrote: Dark, It actually is very much related to games, as we were talking about the reasons for audio game piracy. In your eagerness to offer philosophical talking points, you entirely missed the point I was making. Hence why I referenced Android as well. The days of small and individual developers creating and designing games and apps is returning with a vengeance, not *just* on Apple platforms, but on others as well. Distribution has never been free. This is simply ignorance. Before the Internet, one needed to produce physical discs, be that floppies or optical discs, to sell games. Later, the Internet came along, and one must purchase server space and bandwidth to host titles for download, pay for credit card transaction services, and so on. These things are neither free, nor cheap. The overhead is actually more expensive for us to offer Windows titles that Mac or iOS ones with Apple's fee. Plenty of non-profit organizations are just as bad or worse than corporations, so that does not solve the problem either. And, not all corporations are evil. The world is not made up of black and white. It is rendered in infinite shades of gray. I do think you need to, whether you agree with them or not, become more educated on Apple's models if you're going to try to debate the merits of them. Apple does not exercise a complete control model, as you put it. This is a common misconception usually banded about by folks in Microsoft's or Android/Linux camps, and is based on a number of falsehoods and/or exaggerations. Apple is a huge contributor to open source, for instance. Both webkit and the Darwin projects were spearheaded by Apple, and indeed, many of Apple's competitors freely use webkit in competing products. The Mac is not locked down in the way that iOS is. Android is swamped with malware because of the open model it employs with virtually no oversight. You couldn't pay me enough to use an Android phone, even if I wasn't an Apple user, because of the numbers of malware infested apps in their official marketplace. Extremes are bad. All open is bad…all closed is bad. Apple has found a sweet spot that works well, in my opinion. As I said above, there are infinite shades of gray, and some very good reasons why Apple does things the way they do that benefit the users directly. There are some decisions that Apple has made that I do not agree with, too, but I am able to weigh out these various pros and cons individually and determine if the pros still outweigh the cons. They do. Just as I don't hate everything Microsoft does, either, though I do not use their products on a day-to-day basis. Ultimately, the main point is whether or not blind gamers are pirating games because of philosophical reasons, as you assert. I think that idea is ridiculous. I understand that you have some strongly held philosophical beliefs of your own, and that's fine…but they do not apply to this situation. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Dark, Actually, this does very much relate to games since the issue is distribution of products weather it be games, audio books, music, or anything else. The problem here is that you have an incorrect perception of Apple's model and charged ahead with your philosophical talking points without considering the reasons for that model. First, I think it needs to be said Apple doesn't have an absolute control model as you stated below. I'll admit the distribution model they use for their iOS devices is more restrictive than for Android or Windows, but all and all it is a good thing for developers and end users. Apple insures that their software on the App Store is free of viruses, is reasonably stable, and meets certain standards and requirements. The end result is you get a good solid product and don't have to worry about your iPhone or iPad being loaded with malware. The same can't be said for Windows or Android devices. Android takes the other extreme of being completely open and what Josh said is all too true. A person has to be very careful what they buy, download, and install on their Android device because viruses and other malware is running rampant. Plus apps can range from very good to being very bad because there is vary little oversight of what is being released for the device. While Windows isn't as open as Android its track record with viruses, Trojans, worms, and other nasty pieces of malware is notorious. The point being here is that Apple's oversight of what software is sold for their iOS devices is generally a good thing, and still doesn't give them absolute control. People can, if they wish, jailbreak the device and install anything they want on it. If they want to run that risk they can, but obviously Apple can't be held accountable for anything that happens if someone is running a jailbroke device. It might also be important to remind you that Apple doesn't have the same policy for Mac OS X as they have for iOS. Its much easier and less restrictive for a third-party developer to write software for Mac OS than iOS if they want to. They don't have to use the App Store for Mac OS, but there will be many benefits for the developer if they did use the Apple App Store rather than trying to distribute the software on their own. Second, I am not convinced non-profit organizations is the answer either for two reasons. In order to exist the people running the non-profit organization must get money through donations or by some other means in order to continue running the organization in the first place. Non-profit organizations must make money just like commercial businesses so they can pay their employees unless you suggest that people work for free. Besides that some non-profit organizations can be as crooked and dirty as any corporation, and I'm just not convinced they can be as neutral as you suggest. Cheers! On 4/24/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi josh. i'm afraid I disagree on distribution completely, since if you look at the markup that goes into prophit, even for something with little to no cost it is unbelieveable. i would be quite happy paying individual people, it is paying massive companies that I disagree with. i do agree amazon mp3 and the like are good ways of paying individual musicians, but they still only cover a certain percentage of what happens, also I am not absolutely convinced by apple's absolute control model since if Apple doesn't think what you've got will sell, well tough. While paying a small percentage to apple for ful distribution digitally is better than paying a record company, it is still not ideal and still leaves far too much control in the hands of one organization, and just! on that organizations terms. while I know you are huge fans of everything Apple, I myself am a little too suspect of company motivations when they have that level of control. Microsoft were bad enough, but at least distribution was comparatively free. Myself, I'm not convinced fair distribution method will ever be achieved until it is controled by a none prophit organization so that individuals can! get paid for their work directly without massive markup going to the middle men. Since however this discussion is distinctly not related to games we'd better stop. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi dark, I won't go into all of the points I'd been planning on addressing below, because Josh and Thomas have pretty much already covered that ground quite nicely. However, I will comment / question a few points below. Thanks, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 24, 2013, at 8:03 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: HI josh. I freely admit my knolidge of apple's business structure is not exact, CQ Regarding your comments on Apple pretty much saying definitively what you can and cannot sell through iTunes and the App Store, this is not true. While Apple does have a set of guidelines for the App Store, in regard to music, this is simply not the case. It's very easy to get tracks posted to the iTunes store. In regard to apps, Apple's Human Interface Guidelines are freely readable and give any developer / potential developer really good ideas of where to go in the process of creating / developing their apps for the public to be released on the App Store. Go by these guidelines and you can pretty much guarantee approval for your app… though even from owning an Iphone I can draw conclusions. I do not say all coorporations are evil, they are simply in pursuit of prophit which, as marx stated is a none moral system from which you cannot derive morality, CQ Are you saying here that because someone (or many someones) may be rewarded for adding to the lives of people either by creating / producing / distributing a product or service that this is immoral? Do the processes of distribution which allow you to receive food, clothing and services contribute nothing good or positive to your existence or that of others? -Because some people may try to use the system to get more than they might, that surely does not make the system as a whole an immoral endeavor. Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you here?… :) and what concerns me as a moral objection is A, the practices, B, the denial of freedom, and C, the actual markup gained by distribution services. you are absolutely correct that the internet should! give an easy method for distribution, yet why is it still the case that many audio books (even when unabridged), are five or ten times more than print originals? even when bought digitally. The same goes for music, CQ I think Josh and Thomas have really said this best already so I won't continue that… :) ultimately prices are jacked up by people because they can, and it is those people, the publishers, distributors and other hangers on whome I, and indeed others do not respect, CQ Again with the superlatives… Do you honestly feel that everyone and every company involved in the supply chain for products and services in western society is in it to cheat the consumer? Let's assume for a minute that I'm correct in my assumptions here, (though I hope I'm not) :) What if we apply this logic to the audio game so-called industry; Are you saying that someone whom is perhaps a one-person shop should not charge anything above the mere costs they incur so that they can be at all rewarded for the time and effort they put in to develop games for you? Everything in a supply chain, even if it is accomplished all by one person, takes time, energy and effort to make it work. All this requires money or barter or some sort of reward. Would you agree?… What I'm wondering is why or how, this somehow evolves into a 'corporations are bad' type of attitude? rather than the individual creators behind books, software, music etc. CQ There are many people who put time and effort into creating these products. Just because there are more people involved in a process does not automatically make that process bad and one where only only one person is involved, a good and moral process. YOu've said, yourself, that drawing generalizations really doesn't work… Getting this back to games and software however, my point was simply that people's general attitudes to coorporations is a lot worse than that towards individuals. This is a general moral point, CQ generalizations… look at for example the amount of charities who get your money by appealing not to over all economic figures, but to individual stories of suffering in a given situation. People empathize with other people, it's a bsic psychological traite. therefore, if developers, rather than appearing ass! simply a faceless organization show themselves to actually be individuals, there is a proportion of people who will pay for products on that basis. CQ This has not played out even in recent history here on this list. Everybody knows Justin Daubinmire is a single individual with a small development business. This hasn't stopped everyone and their brother running him down, publicly humiliating and challenging his credibility just because he made a decision they didn't like. What this looks more like to me, is that many people
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
Hi Cara, You raised a very good point in your last post. Sometimes a game developer needs to stop answering calls, responding to email, or cut down on list activity to work on games. If a developer does that he or she could be accused of being impersonal just because they are trying to make time to work on other things. For example, over the last two/three days I've answered and responded to a good dozen messages from this list as well as a few others. Now, just imagine if I put that hour or two of email into working on MOTA or something else. I can get a lot more done when I am not spending so much time on Audyssey or the Audiogames.net forum, and some developers like Josh are fairly quiet unless there is some news worth discussing. So just because a developer is quiet doesn't mean they are impersonal or not doing anything productive. :D Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
maybe devs could get others to handle their list mail. its just a thought, ofcause said person would need to eventually get payed. I'd do it for anyone that wants it. free at first but if I expanded obviously I'd need to be payed, something like 10 bucks an hour or whatever or well games, testing, etc I am not fussy. or in any other way not cash related. I have the time, and it would make my life a bit bussier. At 02:22 PM 4/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Cara, You raised a very good point in your last post. Sometimes a game developer needs to stop answering calls, responding to email, or cut down on list activity to work on games. If a developer does that he or she could be accused of being impersonal just because they are trying to make time to work on other things. For example, over the last two/three days I've answered and responded to a good dozen messages from this list as well as a few others. Now, just imagine if I put that hour or two of email into working on MOTA or something else. I can get a lot more done when I am not spending so much time on Audyssey or the Audiogames.net forum, and some developers like Josh are fairly quiet unless there is some news worth discussing. So just because a developer is quiet doesn't mean they are impersonal or not doing anything productive. :D Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
But Shaun, then we'd become corporations and then Dark would hate us! lol! *smile* Dark, just kidding! *hug* Just couldn't resist! :) Shaun, in all seriousness would you actually do that? if so that's way cool of you to offer! This is the sort of community involvement I'm talking about. That offer in itself can totally free-up someone's time So kudos to you for offering! Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 24, 2013, at 7:38 PM, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: maybe devs could get others to handle their list mail. its just a thought, ofcause said person would need to eventually get payed. I'd do it for anyone that wants it. free at first but if I expanded obviously I'd need to be payed, something like 10 bucks an hour or whatever or well games, testing, etc I am not fussy. or in any other way not cash related. I have the time, and it would make my life a bit bussier. At 02:22 PM 4/25/2013, you wrote: Hi Cara, You raised a very good point in your last post. Sometimes a game developer needs to stop answering calls, responding to email, or cut down on list activity to work on games. If a developer does that he or she could be accused of being impersonal just because they are trying to make time to work on other things. For example, over the last two/three days I've answered and responded to a good dozen messages from this list as well as a few others. Now, just imagine if I put that hour or two of email into working on MOTA or something else. I can get a lot more done when I am not spending so much time on Audyssey or the Audiogames.net forum, and some developers like Josh are fairly quiet unless there is some news worth discussing. So just because a developer is quiet doesn't mean they are impersonal or not doing anything productive. :D Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
It's a real shame when you cannot afford to try to better yourself. Although the government claims to want you to get a job and work, you find that you are worse off if you do, thanks to the elimination of necessary benefits such as health care, food stamps and so on. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames Hi Thomas, You know I love writing games. Maybe it would have been nice to be able to make some money at it. But even early on I heard that there was not much money to make. But one major reason that I have never taken any money for any of my games is because I can not afford to. You know if I got any money for my games it would then lower my food stamps, raise my rent, maybe kick me off of my medical insurance and stuff like that. Not to mention just all of the hassle of reporting it all the time. And if somehow I released a game that really sold good and I made a whole bunch of money in one quarter, I might even get kicked off of disability income. And that was not easy to get back on to after the last time that I had a job and went off of it. Oh yeah, and I think that a hobby is more fun than a job. BFN Jim There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
And there's always a chance that you could then get into trouble for using Homer Simpson sounds in your games. And as someone who recently had to pawn all his Simpsons DVD's due to his x's frightening financial irresponsibility and wasn't able to pay to recover them, these games are the only thing that prevents me from going into complete Simpsons withdrawal. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Jim Kitchen Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 7:15 PM To: Thomas Ward Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames Hi Thomas, You know I love writing games. Maybe it would have been nice to be able to make some money at it. But even early on I heard that there was not much money to make. But one major reason that I have never taken any money for any of my games is because I can not afford to. You know if I got any money for my games it would then lower my food stamps, raise my rent, maybe kick me off of my medical insurance and stuff like that. Not to mention just all of the hassle of reporting it all the time. And if somehow I released a game that really sold good and I made a whole bunch of money in one quarter, I might even get kicked off of disability income. And that was not easy to get back on to after the last time that I had a job and went off of it. Oh yeah, and I think that a hobby is more fun than a job. BFN Jim There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames
I'm in the same boat. I know that even if I could manage to get a job I would lose my benefits right away, not in the reasonable time frame they advertise when they try to get you to apply. And Joke Rehab as I like to call it is remarkably blasé about it. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Charles Rivard Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 7:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames It's a real shame when you cannot afford to try to better yourself. Although the government claims to want you to get a job and work, you find that you are worse off if you do, thanks to the elimination of necessary benefits such as health care, food stamps and so on. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net To: Thomas Ward Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Giving Away Free Games was Announcement AboutBSCGames Hi Thomas, You know I love writing games. Maybe it would have been nice to be able to make some money at it. But even early on I heard that there was not much money to make. But one major reason that I have never taken any money for any of my games is because I can not afford to. You know if I got any money for my games it would then lower my food stamps, raise my rent, maybe kick me off of my medical insurance and stuff like that. Not to mention just all of the hassle of reporting it all the time. And if somehow I released a game that really sold good and I made a whole bunch of money in one quarter, I might even get kicked off of disability income. And that was not easy to get back on to after the last time that I had a job and went off of it. Oh yeah, and I think that a hobby is more fun than a job. BFN Jim There is a very fine line between hobby and mental illness. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
