Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
Hmm, maybe have the more distant ships quieter or echo as if from a long distance. Sent from my iPod 5 keychat/google talk: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com primary email: d.pra...@me.com facebook/iMessage: devinpra...@live.com On May 20, 2014, at 18:18, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: HI Thomas, Very much agree here. :) this is really a close topic to my heart in that adapting some earlier arcade games into audio is something I am really thinking about of late. Even adapting some of these simple games proves to be a serious task. As an example, how would we here, consider adapting a game like Tempest? for those not familiar with this title, you start the game with your view facing down the length of what is essentially a tube. You are looking down the inside of this tube. Your ship is also facing down the tube but is located on the top edge of it, which is the edge nearest to your point of view. So when you move left or right, your ship actually moves counterclockwise or clockwise respectively, so it travels around the top edge of the tube. When you fire, you are firing away from you down the length of the tube. the enemies which are attempting to dispatch you are traveling up the inside of the tube toward you. So you need to move clockwise or counterclockwise to maneuver your ship in front of them, and fire on them. While you do this, you can see in the distance, at the opposite end of the tube, several very small dots which are flying around. These dots are actually the enemies very far away which move to the areas on the tube where they will then travel up toward you. So it is possible to see and avoid these enemies before they even begin their ascent. While it is technically not necessary to see these enemies at that stage to play the game successfully, I describe all this to present this as an audio question. I am trying to think how I would possibly adapt any of this scenario to preserve any part of this style of gameplay without dumbing it down to the point of inanity. ;) I do have some ideas and am very interested in hearing what you all think… I thought there was a project in the works from a developer on this list over the years, emulating this type of gameplay, but have heard nothing about this of late so thought this would be an interesting thought experiment… For those of us really seeking a particular type of gaming experience, it can be very important to preserve a proper type of game mechanics. -Or at least be able to bring something special of that experience over into audio. Thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 20, 2014, at 2:42 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Well, the problem I see with that is simply this. While not precisely replicating mainstream mechanics might be helpful from an accessibility point of view it still does not give us a comparable experience. What we end up with is a different experience or challenge entirely which may or may not be favorable depending on the game. Take Montezuma's Revenge for example. That's a game based on a mainstream video game. I'd assume for authenticity sake a developer would keep the traps and challenges as much the same as possible. Changing the behavior of the gems to fall from the ceiling like the falling items in Q9 is interesting but not necessarily favorable in that particular game because the original mainstream game had its own unique and interesting challenges which I for one would like to see replicated in audio not changed. I certainly agree with you to a point sometimes if something can't be done in audio then changing the mechanics to suit an audio game should be done rather than replicating mainstream mechanics, but I also see reasons why that should not be done. Its okay if the game is an original idea written for an audio game market to use new and interesting mechanics, but if it is a retro remake of a classic game I think it should attempt to imitate the game it was based upon as much as possible. Cheers! On 5/20/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Interesting thoughts and I will agree problems with depicting hight have provided major issues for 2d games in audio. That being said, maybe this is a case where adapting some of the mechanics to be more challenging in audio rather than explicitly trying to replicate the mainstream ones would be helpful. For example, instead of trying to make the sound of fireballs which hit the player out of pits, have the fireballs loop out of pits and land on the ground creating temporary burning flames that damaged or killed the player. Effectively this would mean instead of ducking or jumping fireballs, the player would have a floor hazard
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
Hi Dark, Yeah, I am not really sure how to handle the mushrooms in an audio rendition of Centipede. to be honest I didn't get that far through the thought process. However, as they say if there is a will there is a way I suppose.' Cheers! On 5/23/14, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I like the idea of centipeeds having unique sounds, and I can imagine how you could equally represent the bouncing spiders and the snales that run down the screen. Indeed sinse most enemies in the game other than the snails tended to move side to side it'd be very easy to represent them in audio. My only concern is how you represent the mushrooms, sinse a major part of the stratogy in centipeed was the fact that if a centipeed (or a part centipeed), hit a mushroom, it'd immediately drop further down the screen and run the other direction, thus part of the game's stratogy involved taking out the shrooms so that you didn't end up with centipeeds coming streight for you really quickly. Given the shear amount of shrooms there could be on screen, representing their location logically could be interesting, sinse even if you included sounds for shrooms, or sounds when the player passed under a shroom that might not be enough positional information to help you to know wwhich shrooms were closest to the descending centipeeds and which to take out. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
Hi Tom. I like the idea of centipeeds having unique sounds, and I can imagine how you could equally represent the bouncing spiders and the snales that run down the screen. Indeed sinse most enemies in the game other than the snails tended to move side to side it'd be very easy to represent them in audio. My only concern is how you represent the mushrooms, sinse a major part of the stratogy in centipeed was the fact that if a centipeed (or a part centipeed), hit a mushroom, it'd immediately drop further down the screen and run the other direction, thus part of the game's stratogy involved taking out the shrooms so that you didn't end up with centipeeds coming streight for you really quickly. Given the shear amount of shrooms there could be on screen, representing their location logically could be interesting, sinse even if you included sounds for shrooms, or sounds when the player passed under a shroom that might not be enough positional information to help you to know wwhich shrooms were closest to the descending centipeeds and which to take out. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
Hi Kate, Well, there is probably a way to make those games accessible. Just requires a bit of thought. In fact, I have been thinking of ways to make Centipede accessible, and I think it can be done. The key to it is making each part of the centipede have a unique sound so you can focus in and shoot them when they break apart and start coming after you. Cheers! On 5/21/14, Caitlyn and Maggie caitlyn.furn...@gmail.com wrote: I used to play centipede and cuebert for hours. Not sure how these games would be made accessable. Probably good that I am not sighted anymore, I'd be gaming in all my free time! Cait --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
I used to play centipede and cuebert for hours. Not sure how these games would be made accessable. Probably good that I am not sighted anymore, I’d be gaming in all my free time! Cait On May 21, 2014, at 12:53 AM, Ian McNamara ianmcnamar...@gmail.com wrote: I use to love the game asteroids that was fantastic. Even without sight it was playable to a degree and I could get quite far without sighted assistance. packman was also playable to a degree as was space invaders. I use to get another blind person to do the firing while I directed the ship and we got past the first level a couple of times. Also my dad use to play an arcade game called rigar which was also fun. DOn’t really remember anything about it although I do remember liking the sound affects and music. Also a game like schooldays for the spectrum would be good on audio. It is basically where your a student at school and the object is to get threw the school day. However you can have other students attack you in lessons and you get in trouble for things you’ve not done. You get lines every time your in trouble and if you get over a certain number of lines you lose the game and have to start again. I never saw anybody get past the first day so I don’t know what happens after that. I also think the old game Grannies garden would be great if an audio equivalent could be produced. Paper boy and alex the kid were also fun. I have never seen so could only get a certain amount of enjoyment from them particular games but I still enjoyed listening to family members play them. I also had a little go with assistance. There are some great old games out there that would be nice to play again in an audio format. Even as a person who has been totally blind from birth some of the old to d games like sonic were brilliant as I got use to what sounds meant what so I could get really far. Ian McNamara --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
Cara, This is Aaron Spears or rather, valiant8086. I forgot to say as much in my last message on the thread. Actually, I intended to send that message from my personal account. Anyway, Only thing I can think of is an entirely different sound for the little dots off in the distance, and they would be quiet of course. As for the being able to tell when you or they are at the top or bottom of the tube rotationally, I'm thinking pitch. Stereo panning would be used also to figure out whether they are toward the left or right edge of this tube. So if it's higher pitched, your own ship this is, and that sound is a tad to the right, you would have the idea that your own ship is a tad to the right of top dead center. Maybe this sound would only be heard as you move your ship, and when you stop, some sort of beep that only was heard occasionally would replace it, because otherwise, you would have a hard time hearing the enemies coming along over your own noise. Some sort of other beep sound would be heard when the ships are about to run into you etc. On 5/20/2014 7:18 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: HI Thomas, Very much agree here. :) this is really a close topic to my heart in that adapting some earlier arcade games into audio is something I am really thinking about of late. Even adapting some of these simple games proves to be a serious task. As an example, how would we here, consider adapting a game like Tempest? for those not familiar with this title, you start the game with your view facing down the length of what is essentially a tube. You are looking down the inside of this tube. Your ship is also facing down the tube but is located on the top edge of it, which is the edge nearest to your point of view. So when you move left or right, your ship actually moves counterclockwise or clockwise respectively, so it travels around the top edge of the tube. When you fire, you are firing away from you down the length of the tube. the enemies which are attempting to dispatch you are traveling up the inside of the tube toward you. So you need to move clockwise or counterclockwise to maneuver your ship in front of them, and fire on them. While you do this, you can see in the distance, at the opposite end of the tube, several very small dots which are flying around. These dots are actually the enemies very far away which move to the areas on the tube where they will then travel up toward you. So it is possible to see and avoid these enemies before they even begin their ascent. While it is technically not necessary to see these enemies at that stage to play the game successfully, I describe all this to present this as an audio question. I am trying to think how I would possibly adapt any of this scenario to preserve any part of this style of gameplay without dumbing it down to the point of inanity. ;) I do have some ideas and am very interested in hearing what you all think… I thought there was a project in the works from a developer on this list over the years, emulating this type of gameplay, but have heard nothing about this of late so thought this would be an interesting thought experiment… For those of us really seeking a particular type of gaming experience, it can be very important to preserve a proper type of game mechanics. -Or at least be able to bring something special of that experience over into audio. Thanks, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On May 20, 2014, at 2:42 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dark, Well, the problem I see with that is simply this. While not precisely replicating mainstream mechanics might be helpful from an accessibility point of view it still does not give us a comparable experience. What we end up with is a different experience or challenge entirely which may or may not be favorable depending on the game. Take Montezuma's Revenge for example. That's a game based on a mainstream video game. I'd assume for authenticity sake a developer would keep the traps and challenges as much the same as possible. Changing the behavior of the gems to fall from the ceiling like the falling items in Q9 is interesting but not necessarily favorable in that particular game because the original mainstream game had its own unique and interesting challenges which I for one would like to see replicated in audio not changed. I certainly agree with you to a point sometimes if something can't be done in audio then changing the mechanics to suit an audio game should be done rather than replicating mainstream mechanics, but I also see reasons why that should not be done. Its okay if the game is an original idea written for an audio game market to use new and interesting mechanics, but if it is a retro remake of a classic game I think it should attempt to imitate the game it was based upon as much as
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
Hi Cara, Same here. I have been really interested in recreating some classic arcade games for the Atari 2600 etc myself and adapting certain game mechanics and visual aspects of the game to audio does seem to be quite challenging. Especially, when certain things would not necessarily have an audio equivalent thus requiring some creativity to make it accessible. It seems to me your discussion of Tempest is just precisely the sort of problem where audio doesn't have exactly a 1 to 1 comparison. The problem is one of perspective. In Tempest a sighted person can just glance down at the bottom of the tube to see x number of dots to gauge how many enemies will be coming at him/her in a few seconds. However, they are not constantly looking at them or have to focus on them making it easier for them to effectively concentrate upon the enemies at hand. The problem here is in audio the only way to convey distance is by lowering the volume of sounds and possibly using pitch to denote speed. If they are very far away chances are they won't be heard at all or be so slight that they can't be heard over the enemies closer to hand as well as the battle noise. there is no way to just glance over outside the current battle area to see or hear where they are in relation to everything else. Plus there is no way to just turn on sound when a gamer wants to hear them or turn off the sounds of the enemy ships out of combat range when they want to focus all of their attention on the enemies in firing range. It seems to me the only practical solution is having to fall back upon speech to gather the relevant information. A long range scan of some kind that can announce x number of ships at x distance away would be more precise than trying to get that info out of audio alone. Perhaps not as nice as being able to see or hear all the enemies far away, but the problem is that we just can't accurately represent the same perspective in audio as in video without resorting to some spoken feedback to fill in the gaps where audio fails. A classic case in point is various status information. In a lot of games they have little color bars running along the bottom of the screen showing the amount of power, health, etc the player has remaining. Obviously, the only way we can really get access to that information is to have the game speak it aloud. However, my issue is not having to speak that information aloud, but with how much information is spoken. What I am getting at is that some developers give a bit too much information. In Shades of Doom, for example, when a gamer presses the h key it says something like 95 percent. Well, that is useful, is a way of handling the problem, but most ,mainstream games are not that precise. The health meters etc are only an approximation, a visual representation, of the health remaining so it might be better if the health status were a bit vague such as saying good, fair, poor, or critical rather than just spitting out the exact percentage. Something else is the fact while we can speak the color of the health and other status bars that in of itself would have no meaning for a fully blind gamer. Particularly one who has been blind all his/her life. In a typical mainstream game a sighted player would immediately understand if their health bar is blue that means excellent health, if green that means good, yellow for fair, and red for critical. that's so common that it really doesn't have to be explained, but would probably need to be explained to a blind gamer just because it makes no difference to them what color the health bar is. So in the end when I was experimenting with this I found the only way to get the information across without giving away too much information is to come up with key words that gives an approximate status like excellent, good, fair, poor, and critical rather than an exact percentage. That is the closest I have come to making the health meters etc accessible and as accurate to the mainstream games as possible. Cheers! On 5/20/14, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: HI Thomas, Very much agree here. :) this is really a close topic to my heart in that adapting some earlier arcade games into audio is something I am really thinking about of late. Even adapting some of these simple games proves to be a serious task. As an example, how would we here, consider adapting a game like Tempest? for those not familiar with this title, you start the game with your view facing down the length of what is essentially a tube. You are looking down the inside of this tube. Your ship is also facing down the tube but is located on the top edge of it, which is the edge nearest to your point of view. So when you move left or right, your ship actually moves counterclockwise or clockwise respectively, so it travels around the top edge of the tube. When you fire, you are firing away from you down the length of the tube. the enemies which are attempting to dispatch you are
Re: [Audyssey] Tempest, an audio thought experiment -was- Re: game taste was: Re: regarding temporal disturbance
I use to love the game asteroids that was fantastic. Even without sight it was playable to a degree and I could get quite far without sighted assistance. packman was also playable to a degree as was space invaders. I use to get another blind person to do the firing while I directed the ship and we got past the first level a couple of times. Also my dad use to play an arcade game called rigar which was also fun. DOn’t really remember anything about it although I do remember liking the sound affects and music. Also a game like schooldays for the spectrum would be good on audio. It is basically where your a student at school and the object is to get threw the school day. However you can have other students attack you in lessons and you get in trouble for things you’ve not done. You get lines every time your in trouble and if you get over a certain number of lines you lose the game and have to start again. I never saw anybody get past the first day so I don’t know what happens after that. I also think the old game Grannies garden would be great if an audio equivalent could be produced. Paper boy and alex the kid were also fun. I have never seen so could only get a certain amount of enjoyment from them particular games but I still enjoyed listening to family members play them. I also had a little go with assistance. There are some great old games out there that would be nice to play again in an audio format. Even as a person who has been totally blind from birth some of the old to d games like sonic were brilliant as I got use to what sounds meant what so I could get really far. Ian McNamara --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
