Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Sarah]

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 18:30, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> Arnaud,
>
>
>
> I've ordered a copy of Good Hair as well. :) There are excellent scholarly
> sources on [[hair
>
> straightening]] in the black community. I dropped a few on the article's
> talk page, but it's just
>
> the tip of the iceberg. I may do some work on the article. Any help by
> editors better
>
> qualified than me welcome!
>
>
>
> I agree about the Black Girls video. My wife showed it to me a few months
> ago, and it's
>
> stayed with me ever since.
>
>
>
> As for your other point, about unnecessary surgery, Sarah spotted that we
> had some frankly
>
> misleading before/after plastic surgery pictures in a number of articles on
> female genitalia
>
> (uploaded by a plastic surgeon, no less). There were also two (2) in the
> vulva article. I found
>
> that quite perturbing.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Andreas
>

Many thanks for your work on those articles, Andreas. I've written to a
gynaecologist who published some images showing the natural variation
between women, and I've asked if she's willing to release a couple.

The Black Girls video is very moving.

Sarah
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Andreas Kolbe]

Arnaud,


I've ordered a copy of Good Hair as well. :) There are excellent scholarly 
sources on [[hair
straightening]] in the black community. I dropped a few on the article's talk 
page, but it's just
the tip of the iceberg. I may do some work on the article. Any help by editors 
better
qualified than me welcome!


I agree about the Black Girls video. My wife showed it to me a few months ago, 
and it's
stayed with me ever since. 


As for your other point, about unnecessary surgery, Sarah spotted that we had 
some frankly
misleading before/after plastic surgery pictures in a number of articles on 
female genitalia
(uploaded by a plastic surgeon, no less). There were also two (2) in the vulva 
article. I found
that quite perturbing.


Best,
Andreas

--- On Wed, 21/9/11, Arnaud HERVE  wrote:

From: Arnaud HERVE 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Black skins
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Wednesday, 21 September, 2011, 0:15

On 20/09/2011 01:10, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXG38QxXY-s

Not only worth watching but compulsory watching, I think. Thanks Andreas 
for this great link. I'll be watching the movie Good Hair next week-end.

Yes I suspect light brown caffelatte skin is becoming a sort of norm 
now. In fact by watching American TV series, I would not be surprised if 
the light brown woman is the one who's here to stay and join the team, 
and the dark brown woman is the one being killed during the episode, or 
not a recurring character.

On a more general scale, I first became aware of the dangers of 
unnecessary surgery by working for sports instructors a few years ago. 
If you imagine that sports physical enhancement will remain forever the 
mere injection of chemicals, well you're wrong. There is going to be 
carbon-fiber bones, all sorts of weird things.

Now as far as average women are concerned, there is a deadly combination 
of :

- the natural tendancy of women to take care of their appearance
- new bio technologies
- business interests eager to combine the two.

But that will create Frankenstein's monsters really. Uneducated women 
are going to get convinced that their shoulders are too large, their 
hips to narrow, their humerus too long... it will really become crazy 
and extend to whatever possible.

And then there is the problem of the consequences when growing older. In 
this case of skin whitening, even if the laboratory says it's safe, it 
nevertheless compulsorily means intervening in the skin as deep as the 
pigments, so frankly it doesn't sound that good to me.

So I would compare it to food disorders or pathological gambling. Even 
if adults do that of their own free will, responsible institutions 
should not go that way.

Arnaud

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Arnaud HERVE]

On 20/09/2011 01:10, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXG38QxXY-s

Not only worth watching but compulsory watching, I think. Thanks Andreas 
for this great link. I'll be watching the movie Good Hair next week-end.

Yes I suspect light brown caffelatte skin is becoming a sort of norm 
now. In fact by watching American TV series, I would not be surprised if 
the light brown woman is the one who's here to stay and join the team, 
and the dark brown woman is the one being killed during the episode, or 
not a recurring character.

On a more general scale, I first became aware of the dangers of 
unnecessary surgery by working for sports instructors a few years ago. 
If you imagine that sports physical enhancement will remain forever the 
mere injection of chemicals, well you're wrong. There is going to be 
carbon-fiber bones, all sorts of weird things.

Now as far as average women are concerned, there is a deadly combination 
of :

- the natural tendancy of women to take care of their appearance
- new bio technologies
- business interests eager to combine the two.

But that will create Frankenstein's monsters really. Uneducated women 
are going to get convinced that their shoulders are too large, their 
hips to narrow, their humerus too long... it will really become crazy 
and extend to whatever possible.

And then there is the problem of the consequences when growing older. In 
this case of skin whitening, even if the laboratory says it's safe, it 
nevertheless compulsorily means intervening in the skin as deep as the 
pigments, so frankly it doesn't sound that good to me.

So I would compare it to food disorders or pathological gambling. Even 
if adults do that of their own free will, responsible institutions 
should not go that way.

Arnaud

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Sarah Stierch]

History continues to be written by Anglos and it's just as apparent in
Wikipedia..and add a male dominated voice, and well...that's history.

The same goes for topics about Native American subjects. I say it in my
lecture about Indigenous peoples working with Wikipedia - it's just like any
other history, it's primarily written by white males, and that has to change
(followed with a picture of Kevin Costner).  (I'm sure the same goes for
other communities/races/ethnicity/skin colors articles, whatever you prefer,
as well, these are just two areas I tend to write in..)

Malcolm X described history being "bleached," and I couldn't agree more.

And here is one of my favorite Onion slaps:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/white-history-year-resumes,139/

Having dialogue like this is a great start - I'd love to see it develop into
a larger community discussion, like the gender gap publicity did. There is a
lot of work to do, but, if we can develop successes with women, I like to
think we can develop opportunities with more specific communities - and
perhaps both at the same time.

-Sarah




On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Brandon Harris wrote:

>
>
> On 9/19/11 4:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> > Here is an example of Caucasian bias: the en:WP article on [[hair
> > straightening]].
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_straightening
> >
> > Despite the fact that this is a topic of great practical interest to
> > black women, many of whom either have straightened their hair or have
> thought about doing it, the
> > article makes no mention of afro hair, and the only two images are of
> Caucasian women.
>
>Topical to this, there is a documentary:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Hair
>
>That points out that hair straightening (Relaxer) is a billion
> dollar
> industry.  This is a clear bias; I'm actually flabbergasted by this.
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



-- 
GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia 
Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
Art
and
Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
--
http://www.sarahstierch.com/
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Amy]

Great point. Although there is a fairly robust page on Hair Relaxer. Not sure 
if the two processes are the same but they certainly could mention each other: 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_relaxer

founder/ceo, 1X57
www.1X57.com
t:  @sengseng
m: 202.423.6609

On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:28 PM, Brandon Harris  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 9/19/11 4:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
>> Here is an example of Caucasian bias: the en:WP article on [[hair
>> straightening]].
>> 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_straightening
>> 
>> Despite the fact that this is a topic of great practical interest to
>> black women, many of whom either have straightened their hair or have 
>> thought about doing it, the
>> article makes no mention of afro hair, and the only two images are of 
>> Caucasian women.
> 
>Topical to this, there is a documentary:
> 
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Hair
> 
>That points out that hair straightening (Relaxer) is a billion dollar 
> industry.  This is a clear bias; I'm actually flabbergasted by this.
> 
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Brandon Harris]

On 9/19/11 4:26 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> Here is an example of Caucasian bias: the en:WP article on [[hair
> straightening]].
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_straightening
>
> Despite the fact that this is a topic of great practical interest to
> black women, many of whom either have straightened their hair or have thought 
> about doing it, the
> article makes no mention of afro hair, and the only two images are of 
> Caucasian women.

Topical to this, there is a documentary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Hair

That points out that hair straightening (Relaxer) is a billion dollar 
industry.  This is a clear bias; I'm actually flabbergasted by this.

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Andreas Kolbe]

Here is an example of Caucasian bias: the en:WP article on [[hair 
straightening]]. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_straightening
Despite the fact that this is a topic of great practical interest to black 
women, many of whom
either have straightened their hair or have thought about doing it, the article 
makes no 
mention of afro hair, and the only two images are of Caucasian women. This 
article seems 
to fail a demographic of millions; and by failing these millions, we are also 
curtailing 
our chances of recruiting editors from this demographic, because it is likely 
to leave them
with the impression that Wikipedia is not written for them.

A.



--- On Mon, 19/9/11, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

From: Andreas Kolbe 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Black skins
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Monday, 19 September, 2011, 13:59

My impression is that we have an appalling dearth of photographs of black 
people generally, just like our coverage of black topics in general is wanting, 
including such basic areas as hair care and skin care. 
Articles on black intellectuals are often either poor stubs, or get deleted for 
erroneous assertions of lack of notability.
In my opinion, we need a major outreach to African studies scholars, and black 
media, because we are missing out on the knowledge people of colour could bring 
to the project.
Andreas

--- On Mon, 19/9/11, Sydney Poore  wrote:

From: Sydney Poore 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Black
 skins
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Monday, 19 September, 2011, 13:28

Very interesting point.

Sydney

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Arnaud HERVE  wrote:

On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:

> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged

> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a

> better understanding of anatomy.



Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she

tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds

to lighten their skin.



It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable

money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.



I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr)

dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead

campaigns against that.



I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more

often, not just light brown.



Arnaud



___

Gendergap mailing list

Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap




-Inline Attachment Follows-

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

-Inline Attachment Follows-

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Andreas Kolbe]

Arnaud,

I've just remembered a documentary related to your post that is very much worth 
watching.
Here is a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXG38QxXY-s


Andreas

--- On Mon, 19/9/11, Arnaud HERVE  wrote:

From: Arnaud HERVE 
Subject: [Gendergap] Black skins
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Monday, 19 September, 2011, 13:06

On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:
> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged 
> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a 
> better understanding of anatomy.

Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she 
tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds 
to lighten their skin.

It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable 
money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.

I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr) 
dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead 
campaigns against that.

I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more 
often, not just light brown.

Arnaud

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Sarah]

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 06:06, Arnaud HERVE  wrote:
> On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:
>> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged
>> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a
>> better understanding of anatomy.
>
> Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she
> tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds
> to lighten their skin.
>
> It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable
> money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.
>
> I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr)
> dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead
> campaigns against that.
>
> I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more
> often, not just light brown.
>
> Arnaud
>
Good point, Arnaud. I've become very conscious recently of the way
Wikipedia is being used to portray people in certain ways, which other
people then assume is the norm. I've been focused on women's
genitalia. We had an image on the [[Labia minora]] article that had
the caption (and the title) "large" labia, whereas in fact they were
well within the normal range. The same goes for photographs of black
women, or any other. It goes back to Carol's point about how we need
images that show diversity as normal.

Sarah

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Andreas Kolbe]

My impression is that we have an appalling dearth of photographs of black 
people generally, just like our coverage of black topics in general is wanting, 
including such basic areas as hair care and skin care. 
Articles on black intellectuals are often either poor stubs, or get deleted for 
erroneous assertions of lack of notability.
In my opinion, we need a major outreach to African studies scholars, and black 
media, because we are missing out on the knowledge people of colour could bring 
to the project.
Andreas

--- On Mon, 19/9/11, Sydney Poore  wrote:

From: Sydney Poore 
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Black skins
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects" 

Date: Monday, 19 September, 2011, 13:28

Very interesting point.

Sydney

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Arnaud HERVE  wrote:

On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:

> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged

> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a

> better understanding of anatomy.



Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she

tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds

to lighten their skin.



It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable

money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.



I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr)

dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead

campaigns against that.



I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more

often, not just light brown.



Arnaud



___

Gendergap mailing list

Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap




-Inline Attachment Follows-

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Sarah Stierch]

I've mentioned my concern about the lack of "non-Anglo voices" also on
Wikipedia and related project websites. I'm hoping that outreach projects
within the gender gap "agenda" through WMF can help develop programming and
outreach ideas that will be usable within diverse populations beyond just
"men and women."

In regards to skintones, anyone who watches American commercials, and
perhaps this depends on where they live, might notice that many companies
use lighter skinned African American men and women who can be perceived as
"mixed" or even Anglo in some circumstances, it appeals to a broader
audience, in theory.

Just as it's important for Wikimedia to broaden relationships with women,
it's important for us to broaden relationships outside of the "White world"
(as seen in the last survey, Wikipedia is primarily Anglo).  Again, voices *
are* heard through neutrality and coverage of topics will expand. I also
think it's important for Wikimedia to start to reach out to Latino
populations as well - and this is in the United States specifically (and
beyond, but, here, they are the fastest growing population).

We do need more photographs of all types of populations doing things that
are deemed "Educational in nature", and we also need content related to
those communities - whether artists or writers, doctors or fashion
designers, quotes or sources, etc.

Then again I spent my undergrad writing about the representation of
minorities in popular culture and you become obsessed with representation
(let's just say..don't watch movies with me)...

-Sarah


On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> > On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:
> >> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged
> >> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a
> >> better understanding of anatomy.
> >
> > Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she
> > tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds
> > to lighten their skin.
> >
> > It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable
> > money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.
> >
> > I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr)
> > dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead
> > campaigns against that.
> >
> > I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more
> > often, not just light brown.
> >
> > Arnaud
>
> There is a movie about black hair. Good Hair
>
> Fred
>
>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>



-- 
GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia 
Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American
Art
and
Sarah Stierch Consulting
*Historical, cultural & artistic research & advising.*
--
http://www.sarahstierch.com/
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Fred Bauder]

> On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:
>> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged
>> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a
>> better understanding of anatomy.
>
> Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she
> tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds
> to lighten their skin.
>
> It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable
> money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.
>
> I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr)
> dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead
> campaigns against that.
>
> I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more
> often, not just light brown.
>
> Arnaud

There is a movie about black hair. Good Hair

Fred



___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] Black skins

[Sydney Poore]

Very interesting point.

Sydney

On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Arnaud HERVE wrote:

> On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:
> > I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged
> > years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a
> > better understanding of anatomy.
>
> Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she
> tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds
> to lighten their skin.
>
> It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable
> money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.
>
> I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr)
> dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead
> campaigns against that.
>
> I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more
> often, not just light brown.
>
> Arnaud
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

[Gendergap] Black skins

[Arnaud HERVE]

On 17/09/2011 22:40, Emily Monroe wrote:
> I remember accessing Wikipedia several times throughout my teenaged 
> years; we cannot expect all of our readers to be an adult with a 
> better understanding of anatomy.

Just a quick note here : I've been talking to a dermatologist and she 
tells me one of the main issues is black women taking all sorts of meds 
to lighten their skin.

It is often detrimental to health, and also it leads to considerable 
money loss in impoverished families, and unnecessary sorrow.

I just thought Wikipedia should be aware of that. Here (fr) 
dermatologist are recruiting black women in the medical sector to lead 
campaigns against that.

I guess one of the ways would be to show dark black women pictures more 
often, not just light brown.

Arnaud

___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap