Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. -1 The community vote [1] was far from unanimous. I'd expect the community being retired to have greater consensus (or, as is more common in such situations, at least indifference) about something like this. [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201211.mbox/%3c852ac9fe-f6a3-4a96-b0b9-653320e47...@toolazydogs.com%3E BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. -1 The community vote [1] was far from unanimous. I'd expect the community being retired to have greater consensus (or, as is more common in such situations, at least indifference) about something like this. While true, I think it is important to also read the discussions on the private list as well. Both sides have good arguments. In any case, I think the ppmc needs to discuss this for the next board report and come to consensus about the future. -1 for now. Martijn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Wink from Incubator
[ X ] +1 (binding) Graduate Wink podling from Incubator Best Regards, Nandana On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Raymond Feng enjoyj...@gmail.com wrote: +1 (binding). Sent from my iPhone 5 On Nov 25, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Luciano Resende luckbr1...@gmail.com wrote: The Apache Wink project entered incubator in May of 2009. Since then it has grown the community in users, committers and PPMC members, made significant improvements to the project codebase and completed many releases following ASF policies and guidelines. The Apache Wink community has voted to proceed with graduation [1] and the result can be found at [2]. Discussion about the proposed resolution is also available at [3]. Please cast your votes: [ ] +1 Graduate Wink podling from Incubator [ ] +0 Indifferent to graduation status of Wink [ ] -1 Reject graduation of Wink podling from Incubator because ... Please find the proposed board resolution below. [1] http://s.apache.org/wink-graduation-vote [2] http://s.apache.org/wink-graduation-result [3] http://s.apache.org/wink-graduation-resolution Resolution: X.Establish the Apache Wink Project WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software, for distribution at no charge to the public, related to enabling development and consumption of REST style web services. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee (PMC), to be known as the The Apache Wink Project, be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that The Apache Wink Project be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of a software project related to enabling development and consumption of REST style web services; and be it further RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, Apache Wink be and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of The Apache Wink Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of The Apache Wink Project; and be it further RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of The Apache Wink Project: * Bryant Luk (bluk) * Christopher James Blythe (cjblythe) * Dustin Amrhein (damrhei) * Davanum Srinivas (dims) * Eli Baram (elib) * Michael Elman (elman) * Jesse A. Ramos (jramos) * Kevan Lee Miller (kevan) * Luciano Resende (lresende) * Martin Snitkovsky (martins) * Nadav Fischer (nfischer) * Nicholas L. Gallardo (ngallardo) * Zhaohui Feng (rfeng) * Michael Rheinheimer (rott) * Tomer Shadi (tomershadi) NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Luciano Resende, be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice President, Wink, to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it further RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Wink Project be and hereby is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache Incubator Wink podling; and be it further RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the Apache Incubator Wink podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator PMC are hereafter discharged. Regards -- Luciano Resende http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://twitter.com/lresende1975 http://lresende.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Wink from Incubator
[X] +1 Graduate Wink podling from Incubator -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
[X] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... As others have said in this thread there's no clear consensus. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Eric Yang eric...@gmail.com wrote: ...With respect to the voting result, but it leaves me puzzled that why should Chukwa be retired. When there are contributors, and there are activities for growth... Note that there's several -1s in the [VOTE] thread on general@incubator.a.o, based on the lack of consensus that we see in [1]. -Bertrand [1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201211.mbox/%3c852ac9fe-f6a3-4a96-b0b9-653320e47...@toolazydogs.com%3E - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
Actually there is activity. Only in September 2 new committers joined. Looking at SVN, there is activity too: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/chukwa/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/hadoop/chukwa/ Unfortunately the most active committer - if not the only one - is Eric. For me (others may correct me) a successful incubator project is one which manages to build up a community around it. While it seems that Chukwa aims at it: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/%3CCAFk14gt_8bwOZ3=2bmmksjmpftovh2_s+ncrya3by9yo4hz...@mail.gmail.com%3E the project has not managed to get a momentum. On the other hand, I saw in the private archives that some legal restrictions have been resolved. Question: How does the Chukwa project want to build up a new community? Personally - if there is a plan and interest to make community work (however that looks like) - I would be open to leave Chukwa a little longer in incubation. Esp. because it seems that committers can now work more freely on it. Maybe we can make up some kind of deadline? Cheers Christian On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Eric Yang eric...@gmail.com wrote: Hi IPMC, For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor and IPMC. In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras. Yet Chukwa has been voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate by the same mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache Chukwa and Apache Wink: Chukka Nov 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201211.mbox/thread 46 Oct 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201210.mbox/thread 14 Sep 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/thread 51 Aug 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201208.mbox/thread 64 Jul 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201207.mbox/thread 82 Jun 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201206.mbox/thread 15 May 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201205.mbox/thread 24 Apr 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201204.mbox/thread 18 Mar 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201203.mbox/thread 71 Feb 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201202.mbox/thread 11 Jan 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201201.mbox/thread 60 Wink Nov 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201211.mbox/thread 18 Oct 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201210.mbox/thread 14 Sep 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201209.mbox/thread 2 Aug 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201208.mbox/thread 69 Jul 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201207.mbox/thread 5 May 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201205.mbox/thread 26 Apr 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201204.mbox/thread 24 Mar 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201203.mbox/thread 15 Feb 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201202.mbox/thread 21 Jan 2012http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/201201.mbox/thread 22 And Incubation status shows: ChukwaIncubator2010-07-14865Falsegroup-1TrueTruehttp://incubator.apache.org/projects/chukwa.html 2012-09-10760,2,413http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#chukwa 4True https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/chukwa/Truehttps://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CHUKWA True http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/Truehttp://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-commits/ True http://incubator.apache.org/chukwa/Truehttp://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/incubator/chukwa/ True http://www.apache.org/dist/incubator/chukwa/KEYSTruehttp://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/incubator/chukwa/ WinkIncubator2009-05-271278Falsegroup-2TrueTruehttp://incubator.apache.org/projects/wink.html 2012-08-161010,4,616http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#wink 3True https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/winkTruehttps://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/wink True http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-dev/Truehttp://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wink-commits/ True http://incubator.apache.org/wink/Truehttp://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/incubator/wink/ True
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
I just read the last few months of discussion on the list. I think that retirement really isn't a bad idea. The single active developer (Eric Y) is the only one who voted against retirement. It really seems like this project would do better in a place like github. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: [X] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... As others have said in this thread there's no clear consensus. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta
A quick update on the Marmotta proposal. Thanks everyone for the comments. The proposal should reflect the discussions. One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote. (and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking like the old timer on the projects mentor list!) Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:57 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: Actually there is activity. Only in September 2 new committers joined. Looking at SVN, there is activity too: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/chukwa/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/hadoop/chukwa/ Unfortunately the most active committer - if not the only one - is Eric. For me (others may correct me) a successful incubator project is one which manages to build up a community around it. While it seems that Chukwa aims at it: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/%3CCAFk14gt_8bwOZ3=2bmmksjmpftovh2_s+ncrya3by9yo4hz...@mail.gmail.com%3E the project has not managed to get a momentum. On the other hand, I saw in the private archives that some legal restrictions have been resolved. Question: How does the Chukwa project want to build up a new community? Personally - if there is a plan and interest to make community work (however that looks like) - I would be open to leave Chukwa a little longer in incubation. Esp. because it seems that committers can now work more freely on it. Maybe we can make up some kind of deadline? Seven months ago we had this same discussion when I joined as a mentor. There was not a lot of activity other than Eric and I raised concerns about maybe it was time to retire the project. A variety of excuses were offered up and it was decided to wait a while and hope that the community activity would grow. We even added a few committers a bit early with the hopes that they would infuse the project with more energy. IMO, not much changed. The flurry of activity is from Eric every time a discussion about retirement arises. As for the now that committers can work more freely on it is not exactly clear. My understanding is that there were some patches developed at IBM and those patches are now going through legal. I tried to dig deeper into what exactly was being held up and all I received was equivocation. Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. I replied To be sure, the infrastructure and administrative costs are negligible. So, we don't need to worry on that account. However, the ASF Incubator is not a place where you can hang your shingle up and hope that someday someone will wander by and be interested. Chukwa has been in the Incubator for years now. Maybe that's what we want the Incubator to be. If that's the case then let's make this new policy explicit. Until then, I will follow my understanding that a project cannot just simply park itself in the Incubator hoping for the party to arrive. Regards, Alan
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Nov 25, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Eric Yang wrote: Hi IPMC, For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor and IPMC. In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras. Yet Chukwa has been voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate by the same mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache Chukwa and Apache Wink: Since I am the mentor that started the retirement vote on the podling I will explain my perspective. What it comes down to is actual diverse activity. For me, the overwhelming bulk of the work for Chukwa was being done by one person. While looking at the raw numbers the two projects seem similar, if you scrub the threads where we discuss whether or not to retire Chukwa and also look at who's doing the actual work, it seems to me that the two projects are not exactly the same. Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:16 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. -1 The community vote [1] was far from unanimous. I'd expect the community being retired to have greater consensus (or, as is more common in such situations, at least indifference) about something like this. While true, I think it is important to also read the discussions on the private list as well. Both sides have good arguments. In any case, I think the ppmc needs to discuss this for the next board report and come to consensus about the future. -1 for now. The discussion basically amounted to a discussion between the mentors and Eric. The other PPMC members were mute with the exception of one member who stated that he'd be ok with it being put into the attic and the project moving to GitHub. The other exception was another mentor who wanted to reboot the mentors because he felt it was their fault for a failing community; to which my reply was that mentors advise and monitor and that the work is really done by the community members. So, what we basically have is one lone developer who's virtually filibustering the retirement. Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
I wonder which steps were taken by mentors, community and pmc to foster a community. I want to learn something from this case. Thanks. 26.11.2012 18:55 пользователь Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com написал: On Nov 25, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Eric Yang wrote: Hi IPMC, For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor and IPMC. In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras. Yet Chukwa has been voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate by the same mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache Chukwa and Apache Wink: Since I am the mentor that started the retirement vote on the podling I will explain my perspective. What it comes down to is actual diverse activity. For me, the overwhelming bulk of the work for Chukwa was being done by one person. While looking at the raw numbers the two projects seem similar, if you scrub the threads where we discuss whether or not to retire Chukwa and also look at who's doing the actual work, it seems to me that the two projects are not exactly the same. Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
[VOTE] Release Apache Bloodhound 0.3 (incubating)
Hi, I would like to request the beginning of the vote for the third release of Apache Bloodhound in the incubator following the successful vote by the Bloodhound PPMC. The result of the vote is summarised here: http://markmail.org/thread/owksv6lbcs6zq7th The artefacts for the release including the source distribution and KEYS can be found here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/bloodhound/ The release itself is created from: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/bloodhound/tags/0.3-incubating/ (r1412891) Issues identified to be fixed for the next release are listed here: https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/273 https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/274 The vote will be open for at least 72 hours. [ ] +1 Release this package as Apache Bloodhound 0.3 [ ] +0 Don't care [ ] -1 Do not release this package (please explain) Cheers, Joe -- Joe Dreimann UX Designer | WANdisco http://www.wandisco.com/
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Nov 26, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Alexei Fedotov wrote: I wonder which steps were taken by mentors, community and pmc to foster a community. I want to learn something from this case. Thanks. When we had our first retirement discussion early this year it was the consensus that we would wait until the end of the year to see if anyone would show up. The reasons for waiting were not entirely clear to me but there was something about how the project was split off from Hadoop back in 2010. Anyway, Eric was enthusiastic at the time and so I personally figured, sure, let's give it some more time and see what happens. We also added a few more committers with the hopes of infusing new blood into the project. So, we waited for more than half a year and we added new committers. I know we don't have a dysfunctional PPMC or committership; the current set of members are great, just inactive. Now, if not a lot of people are interested in the project itself then it's hard to whip up enthusiasm for people to contribute. In previous podlings that I have mentored raising the specter of retirement has brought lurkers out from the background and incentivized them to step up and become active in the community. For Chukwa no such result occurred. So, what else can be done? We asked for plans or ideas from the PPMC and, as I mentioned in voting thread, the discussion with the mentors involved only one member of the PPMC. The other PPMC members were mute with the exception of one member who stated that he'd be ok with it being put into the attic and the project moving to GitHub. We could wait some more but we already did that and I don't think that it will be productive given that the project is basically flatlined. Regards, Alan
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: On Nov 25, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Eric Yang wrote: Hi IPMC, For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor and IPMC. In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras. Yet Chukwa has been voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate by the same mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache Chukwa and Apache Wink: Since I am the mentor that started the retirement vote on the podling I will explain my perspective. What it comes down to is actual diverse activity. For me, the overwhelming bulk of the work for Chukwa was being done by one person. While looking at the raw numbers the two projects seem similar, if you scrub the threads where we discuss whether or not to retire Chukwa and also look at who's doing the actual work, it seems to me that the two projects are not exactly the same. I went ahead and did just that. I read a bunch of the threads and the pattern is that one committer does (mostly small) stuff and the few others typically just say meh It should be emphasized that retirement != project-death-sentence. Chukwa might even do much better as a github project where new contributors can be groomed more aggressively than with an apache project.
Re: What constitute a successful project?
Alan, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:57 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: Actually there is activity. Only in September 2 new committers joined. Looking at SVN, there is activity too: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/chukwa/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/hadoop/chukwa/ Unfortunately the most active committer - if not the only one - is Eric. For me (others may correct me) a successful incubator project is one which manages to build up a community around it. While it seems that Chukwa aims at it: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/%3CCAFk14gt_8bwOZ3=2bmmksjmpftovh2_s+ncrya3by9yo4hz...@mail.gmail.com%3E the project has not managed to get a momentum. On the other hand, I saw in the private archives that some legal restrictions have been resolved. Question: How does the Chukwa project want to build up a new community? Personally - if there is a plan and interest to make community work (however that looks like) - I would be open to leave Chukwa a little longer in incubation. Esp. because it seems that committers can now work more freely on it. Maybe we can make up some kind of deadline? Seven months ago we had this same discussion when I joined as a mentor. There was not a lot of activity other than Eric and I raised concerns about maybe it was time to retire the project. A variety of excuses were offered up and it was decided to wait a while and hope that the community activity would grow. We even added a few committers a bit early with the hopes that they would infuse the project with more energy. IMO, not much changed. The flurry of activity is from Eric every time a discussion about retirement arises. As for the now that committers can work more freely on it is not exactly clear. My understanding is that there were some patches developed at IBM and those patches are now going through legal. I tried to dig deeper into what exactly was being held up and all I received was equivocation. Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. I replied To be sure, the infrastructure and administrative costs are negligible. So, we don't need to worry on that account. However, the ASF Incubator is not a place where you can hang your shingle up and hope that someday someone will wander by and be interested. Chukwa has been in the Incubator for years now. Maybe that's what we want the Incubator to be. If that's the case then let's make this new policy explicit. Until then, I will follow my understanding that a project cannot just simply park itself in the Incubator hoping for the party to arrive. Thank you for clarifying. It's good to read a summary of a Mentor. Actually I think you understand the Incubator as I do and what I have read in your mail it makes sense to end incubation. As Ted Dunning said: retiring != death. GitHub might make more sense. When the project got more community it can come try to come back to the incubator. Cheers Christian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
+1 I don't see how the project can grow a community. The community vote received a single -1, most others don't care. With most of the community members not caring about their project and the sole active developer concurring, I believe its a better match for GitHub. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Hi, The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on confirming this decision. [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html Regards, Alan -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
+1. Whatever merits the Chukwa codebase may have, it's not got an active community - there's just no way around that. Eric's heroic efforts, notwithstanding, it's time to see if it'll have success in Github. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: +1 I don't see how the project can grow a community. The community vote received a single -1, most others don't care. With most of the community members not caring about their project and the sole active developer concurring, I believe its a better match for GitHub. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Hi, The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on confirming this decision. [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html Regards, Alan -- http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Hi, The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on confirming this decision. [X ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project Bernd, after careful consideration, failing to successfully mentor Chukwa. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
+1 -Original Message- From: Alan Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:00 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation Hi, The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on confirming this decision. [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful. We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising, mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they tell us. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Franklin, Matthew B. mfrank...@mitre.org wrote: +1 -Original Message- From: Alan Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:00 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation Hi, The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on confirming this decision. [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta
Andy, who's missing? N. is now formally a member. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Andy Seaborne a...@apache.org wrote: A quick update on the Marmotta proposal. Thanks everyone for the comments. The proposal should reflect the discussions. One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote. (and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking like the old timer on the projects mentor list!) Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with an alternative implementation. :-) As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty easy one to make. Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of the community did start working through all the issues and have now produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards graduation even though the project is still far below its past activity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22 BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Release Apache Bloodhound 0.3 (incubating)
On 26.11.2012 16:59, Joachim Dreimann wrote: Hi, I would like to request the beginning of the vote for the third release of Apache Bloodhound in the incubator following the successful vote by the Bloodhound PPMC. The result of the vote is summarised here: http://markmail.org/thread/owksv6lbcs6zq7th The artefacts for the release including the source distribution and KEYS can be found here: https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/bloodhound/ The release itself is created from: https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/bloodhound/tags/0.3-incubating/ (r1412891) Issues identified to be fixed for the next release are listed here: https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/273 https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/274 The vote will be open for at least 72 hours. [ ] +1 Release this package as Apache Bloodhound 0.3 [ ] +0 Don't care [ ] -1 Do not release this package (please explain) +1 (binding) -- Brane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta
Benson, everything is fine regarding Nandana, but we're still awaiting a formal resolution about Fabian Christ. On 26.11.2012 21:15, Benson Margulies wrote: Andy, who's missing? N. is now formally a member. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Andy Seaborne a...@apache.org wrote: A quick update on the Marmotta proposal. Thanks everyone for the comments. The proposal should reflect the discussions. One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote. (and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking like the old timer on the projects mentor list!) Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with an alternative implementation. :-) As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven months ago. We came to a consensus to give it another try. We even added a few committers a bit early with the hopes that they would infuse the project with more energy. The vote came after many discussions over the year. The Chukwa podling, which was started back in 2010, was given its second chance. Unless there's something glaring that was overlooked, I'm not prepared to change my mind about its retirement. Regards, Alan
How to grow podling communities
-- Forwarded message -- From: *Benson Margulies* Date: Monday, November 26, 2012 Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful. We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising, mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they tell us. - I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow. Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way. With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ? Thanks -- Luciano Resende Sent from my iPhone -- Luciano Resende http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://twitter.com/lresende1975 http://lresende.blogspot.com/
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
Le 26 nov. 2012 21:06, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com a écrit : For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC Based on the mentors additional info, and after reviewing the project activity, I am changing my -1 to +1. Bertrand
Re: How to grow podling communities
Actually, this has its own difficulty. Sponsorship can lead to (inadvertent or intended) domination by the sponsored developers. But I agree completely that helping volunteer communities grow is an important issue. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Luciano Resende luckbr1...@gmail.comwrote: Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta
OK, I get it. We've got that in process. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Sergio Fernández sergio.fernan...@salzburgresearch.at wrote: Benson, everything is fine regarding Nandana, but we're still awaiting a formal resolution about Fabian Christ. On 26.11.2012 21:15, Benson Margulies wrote: Andy, who's missing? N. is now formally a member. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Andy Seaborne a...@apache.org wrote: A quick update on the Marmotta proposal. Thanks everyone for the comments. The proposal should reflect the discussions. One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote. (and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking like the old timer on the projects mentor list!) Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: How to grow podling communities
Luciano, My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I don't know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev. I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to continue to shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider more of an effort to support in addition to supervising. Just, however, my opinion. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende luckbr1...@gmail.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: *Benson Margulies* Date: Monday, November 26, 2012 Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful. We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising, mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they tell us. - I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow. Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way. With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ? Thanks -- Luciano Resende Sent from my iPhone -- Luciano Resende http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://twitter.com/lresende1975 http://lresende.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
Another favor: What are the voting rules for this case? I'm assuming that -1 != veto, but can anyone point to precedent or documentation I'd be grateful. A caution: I have been up since 4:15AM and it's now 7:24PM, so I'm prone to overlook the obvious. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: Le 26 nov. 2012 21:06, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com a écrit : For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC Based on the mentors additional info, and after reviewing the project activity, I am changing my -1 to +1. Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven months ago. We came to a consensus to give it another try. We even added a few committers a bit early with the hopes that they would infuse the project with more energy. That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them. If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't have too many cycles to spend on the project. Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to keep Chukwa alive at the ASF: a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be sustainable over a longer period of time? Why? IIUC there was some recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way to measure the expected increase in activity? b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community? Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases, improving project documentation, presenting the project at various venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether such efforts are working? Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community activity and diversity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/tvs4yivabvrig7ia BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
Yeah my sentiments here are of caution -- seems like we need to root out what is going on here based on the community reaction. Cheers, Chris On Nov 26, 2012, at 2:59 AM, ant elder wrote: -1 In the vote on their dev list there wasn't unanimous support for retiring the project, that should be sorted out first before forcibly retiring them and while there are still people who want to give it a go to try to make it work. ...ant On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 11:00 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Hi, The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project. Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on confirming this decision. [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ... [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
+1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the opportunity to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would mean 3 active peeps in the community). If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. Cheers, Chris On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with an alternative implementation. :-) As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty easy one to make. Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of the community did start working through all the issues and have now produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards graduation even though the project is still far below its past activity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22 BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: How to grow podling communities
Growing community is about getting the message out there. There has to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are: - press - community events - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers) - fast turnaround on patch reviews - regular releases - decent website - tutorials - screencasts - public discussion (even with self while no community exists) Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write code. It's a catch-22. Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential contributors. I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion. Ross -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: 27 November 2012 00:22 To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities Luciano, My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I don't know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev. I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to continue to shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider more of an effort to support in addition to supervising. Just, however, my opinion. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende luckbr1...@gmail.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: *Benson Margulies* Date: Monday, November 26, 2012 Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful. We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising, mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they tell us. - I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow. Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way. With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ? Thanks -- Luciano Resende Sent from my iPhone -- Luciano Resende http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://twitter.com/lresende1975 http://lresende.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: How to grow podling communities
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Growing community is about getting the message out there. There has to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are: - press - community events - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers) - fast turnaround on patch reviews - regular releases - decent website - tutorials - screencasts - public discussion (even with self while no community exists) Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write code. It's a catch-22. Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential contributors. I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion. My thought here is that ComDev is a source of useful advice, not a group of people to do the work. Ross -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: 27 November 2012 00:22 To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities Luciano, My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I don't know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev. I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to continue to shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider more of an effort to support in addition to supervising. Just, however, my opinion. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende luckbr1...@gmail.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: *Benson Margulies* Date: Monday, November 26, 2012 Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful. We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising, mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they tell us. - I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow. Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way. With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ? Thanks -- Luciano Resende Sent from my iPhone -- Luciano Resende http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://twitter.com/lresende1975 http://lresende.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:25 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven months ago. We came to a consensus to give it another try. We even added a few committers a bit early with the hopes that they would infuse the project with more energy. That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them. OT: I don't care for the telling the community to pick up their toys and leave characterization. Being a mentor is a fair amount of work. Even more work when one is carrying out what seems to be the right thing to do even when it's unpopular. We're definitely not taking the easy route here and remarks like yours makes things unnecessarily harder. If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't have too many cycles to spend on the project. We're talking about one developer here. Not a few people. If others had chimed in it would probably be a different story. With that said I do think that you have some good questions below. Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to keep Chukwa alive at the ASF: a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to becomec vcevwoi more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be sustainable over a longer period of time? Why? IIUC there was some recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way to measure the expected increase in activity? b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community? Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases, improving project documentation, presenting the project at various venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether such efforts are working? Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community activity and diversity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/tvs4yivabvrig7ia I too would love to hear answers to these questions. More importantly I'd like to also hear them from other PPMC members in addition to Eric. Regards, Alan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it another six months rather than just one month. I don't think that a lot can reasonably be accomplished in one month. I would also like to see some milestones set in those six months. If the milestones are met or not met then the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious. Thoughts? Regards, Alan On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the opportunity to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would mean 3 active peeps in the community). If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. Cheers, Chris On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with an alternative implementation. :-) As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty easy one to make. Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of the community did start working through all the issues and have now produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards graduation even though the project is still far below its past activity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22 BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: How to grow podling communities
I wonder if we can ask that incubation proposals include how they intend to get the message out there. What channels are relevant for the project? I guess what are their marketing plans. Eventually, we'd have a collection of old incubation proposals that new podlings could use to garner ideas on how to market and grow their community. Regards, Alan On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: Growing community is about getting the message out there. There has to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are: - press - community events - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers) - fast turnaround on patch reviews - regular releases - decent website - tutorials - screencasts - public discussion (even with self while no community exists) Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write code. It's a catch-22. Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential contributors. I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion. Ross -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: 27 November 2012 00:22 To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities Luciano, My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I don't know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev. I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to continue to shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider more of an effort to support in addition to supervising. Just, however, my opinion. On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende luckbr1...@gmail.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: *Benson Margulies* Date: Monday, November 26, 2012 Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful. We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising, mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they tell us. - I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow. Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way. With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ? Thanks -- Luciano Resende Sent from my iPhone -- Luciano Resende http://people.apache.org/~lresende http://twitter.com/lresende1975 http://lresende.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To
Re: What constitute a successful project?
Alan, +1 from me. Cheers, Chris On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:32 PM, Alan Cabrera wrote: If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it another six months rather than just one month. I don't think that a lot can reasonably be accomplished in one month. I would also like to see some milestones set in those six months. If the milestones are met or not met then the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious. Thoughts? Regards, Alan On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the opportunity to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would mean 3 active peeps in the community). If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. Cheers, Chris On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with an alternative implementation. :-) As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty easy one to make. Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of the community did start working through all the issues and have now produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards graduation even though the project is still far below its past activity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22 BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
Is it ok to close this vote? It happened over the long holiday weekend in the US and we only got five total votes, three from our mentors. Thanks, -Alex On 11/22/12 11:57 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: +1 - binding Regards, Alan On Nov 21, 2012, at 11:03 PM, Alex Harui wrote: This is a call for vote to graduate the Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator. Apache Flex entered the Incubator in December of 2011. We have made significant progress with the project since moving over to Apache. We have 34 committers listed on our status page at [1] including 6 accepted after the podling was formed. Another 5 committers were recently approved after we started the vote to graduate and are not yet listed on the status page. We completed two releases (Apache Flex 4.8.0-incubating and Apache Flex SDK Installer 1.0.9-incubating). The community of Apache Flex is active, healthy and growing and has demonstrated the ability to self-govern using accepted Apache practices. The Apache Flex community voted overwhelmingly to graduate [2]. You can view the discussion at [3]. We have prepared and reviewed our charter. You can view it at [4]. Please cast your votes: [ ] +1 Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator [ ] +0 Indifferent to the graduation status of Apache Flex podling [ ] -1 Reject graduation of Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator because ... This vote will be open for at least 72 hours. [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex [2] http://markmail.org/message/ps3rjgv76vlw4sh5 [3] http://markmail.org/thread/ej4z47rr3ba532uv [4] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Graduation+Resolution -- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: How to grow podling communities
I'm mostly just a lurker on this list, having thought about bringing a project to Apache about 24 months ago[1], realizing we didn't quite have the demand/community. Since then I've been lurking, wanting to see when/whether it makes sense to attempt it again, reflecting on the state of the project I'm working on. From where I'm sitting, I think the incubator actually should do much more here. Big picture - bunch of developers with some cool code come to possible the foremost organization for open source projects. They start incubating, and discover that part of their incubation process is to market themselves to grow their community, and yet not much help arrives to do that. On top of that, (a) the developers likely have weak marketing skills, (b) don't have a budget for marketing travel, (c) aren't given any tips from others more experienced about what kinds of resources they should scare up and which efforts they should focus on first. I see the incubator process ought to play three roles: a) teaching the Apache rules/community/approach b) teaching optimal open source project hygiene (which includes items listed below, such as quick turn-around on patch reviews, decent website, tutorials, public mailing list discussion) - and actually include grading on the quality of those items before graduation. c) assistance and reporting on marketing. What the heck does this mean? I think the incubator currently has parts (a) (b) down. Not so much for (c) For example: What does it mean to do press? What would you include in a press release? Where would you send it? Apache has so many projects, shouldn't it do a monthly highlight on _ report, calling out a top level project, and a project being incubated? Automatic publicity! Expect incubating projects to participate in one of those highlight reports before graduating What community events should a team focus on? What have teams done in the past? What has worked? What hasn't worked? Do we know why it worked or didn't work? Is this information being recorded anywhere? Encourage teams to shamelessly request reference users that they can post to their websites. Solicit endorsements from neutral third parties. I've seen ideas tossed around on the incubator list, but generally nothing concrete, so it feels to me like the projects are left drifting in the wind, trying to figure this stuff out for themselves. That's silly, because Apache has such huge name recognition in the software world, it should be *easy* to draw attention to incubating projects. Except that at the moment, the best way to follow what's incubating seems to be hopping on this general list, where you will see when projects submit proposals, see them voted on, and see when they get in trouble. That's a lot of noise for a small amount of signal. Capturing that signal publicly might help bring visibility to the projects to follow. For example, why doesn't the incubator have a twitter feed where the status of incubating projects gets reported? Something that everyone can follow, and discover when new projects are proposed, when projects are at risk, and when they think about graduating? Recognizing that everyone here has limited resources, I don't think what's needed here is much more than a little bit of capturing existing known data on a wiki page or three, perhaps a twitter feed, and some small amount of nudging by mentors. At least as a start! Eric. [1] https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/gXMLProposal On 11/26/12 8:03 PM, Alan Cabrera wrote: I wonder if we can ask that incubation proposals include how they intend to get the message out there. What channels are relevant for the project? I guess what are their marketing plans. Eventually, we'd have a collection of old incubation proposals that new podlings could use to garner ideas on how to market and grow their community. Regards, Alan On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Ross Gardler wrote: Growing community is about getting the message out there. There has to be someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are: - press - community events - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers) - fast turnaround on patch reviews - regular releases - decent website - tutorials - screencasts - public discussion (even with self while no community exists) Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write code. It's a catch-22. Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential contributors. I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one could argue ComDev should be documenting these
Re: What constitute a successful project?
On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting jukka.zitt...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven months ago. We came to a consensus to give it another try. We even added a few committers a bit early with the hopes that they would infuse the project with more energy. That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them. If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't have too many cycles to spend on the project. Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to keep Chukwa alive at the ASF: a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be sustainable over a longer period of time? Why? IIUC there was some recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way to measure the expected increase in activity? b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community? Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases, improving project documentation, presenting the project at various venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether such efforts are working? Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community activity and diversity. This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually). Give it yet more time. Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode for another few months when it failed for the past years. Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time? The legal issues only made it more clear to me that and why this Incubation failed. The much I'd love to see Chukwa fly, this is getting ridiculous. Bernd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What constitute a successful project?
Great to hear, one month seemed too short to accomplish so much. I'd be happy to volunteer as another mentor if some fresh eyes will help. ...ant On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:32 AM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it another six months rather than just one month. I don't think that a lot can reasonably be accomplished in one month. I would also like to see some milestones set in those six months. If the milestones are met or not met then the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious. Thoughts? Regards, Alan On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the opportunity to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would mean 3 active peeps in the community). If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. Cheers, Chris On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote: Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work much on the project. That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with an alternative implementation. :-) As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty easy one to make. Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of the community did start working through all the issues and have now produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards graduation even though the project is still far below its past activity. [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22 BR, Jukka Zitting - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
