Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

I just just sent the second email out (see private for more details). Since the 
first email that was sent we have 18% of people contacted sign up or roster 
otherwise be corrected.

I can see the second email has already encouraged a request to sign up.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi Justin,

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:01 AM Justin Mclean  wrote:
> Here the subjected text of the email to be sent out, feedback welcome:..

Looks good to me with two suggestions for clarity:

> ...The IPMC is considering removing all IPMC members that have not signed up 
> to the private list...

We are considering removing from the PMC all IPMC members who have not
signed up to the private list...

> ...you may want to consider:
> a) getting involved again
> b) retiring by sending a mail...

I'd say "leaving the IPMC" instead of "retiring".

-Bertrand

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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

Here the subjected text of the email to be sent out, feedback welcome:

Title: Removal of IPMC members not signed  up to private list

---
Hi,

We contacted you recently as you are an IPMC member and where not subscribed to 
the Incubator private list. We didn’t hear back from you and you are still not 
subscribed.

The IPMC is considering removing all IPMC members that have not signed up to 
the private list. This is likely to happen in the next month but is dependant 
on IPMC and board approval.

It may be possible that you are subscribed under another email address or look 
at the list at lists.apache.org , if that is the case 
you can you please get in touch and you will not be removed.

If you are removed, and you are an ASF member you can be added back by asking 
at any time. However, it is expected you will sign up to the private mailing 
list when you do so.

If you are not subscribed to the private list, please send an email to:
private-subscr...@incubator.apache.org 


Or subscribe via the subscription helper at:
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe 


It may also be that you are no longer involved in the incubator PMC. It that is 
the case you may want to consider:
a) getting involved again
b) retiring by sending a mail saying so to priv...@incubator.apache.org 
.

If you have trouble or questions about the above, please get in touch, and 
we'll help you.

Thanks,
Justin
——

Once we refine the list to send to (see private) and I apply any feedback to 
the above email I’ll send out the email.

Thanks,
Justin

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> With any response? And with knowledge that they may be removed from the IPMC? 
> If not then let’s consider those still in.

No that was not mentioned, we can send out another email with that in. Probably 
about time to do that.

> I think we need to approve the final list on private@

List sent to private, I’ve not gone through all of the data yet so it a work in 
progress.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Inline

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> I concur with Greg. There are two types of IPMC members who are not 
>> subscribed to private@. Those who are Apache Members who can always ask to 
>> rejoin and others who were voted onto the IPMC would need to be added again 
>> - let’s limit mistakes with the second group. [1]
> 
> There's 6 people that I count in the second group, the first group is a lot 
> larger.
> 
>> I would suggest that the list presented to the board be all who are not 
>> subscribed minus any who have signed off on a podling report since January 
>> 1, 2019.
> 
> I had already filtered to list for couple of people I know that where active, 
> but there's a couple of mentors who may of signed off a report.

Let’s just exclude those ... unless ... below
> 
>> Those in that category should be reached out to directly
> 
> All have been reached directly already.

With any response? And with knowledge that they may be removed from the IPMC? 
If not then let’s consider those still in. I think we need to approve the final 
list on private@

Best,
Dave

> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> I concur with Greg. There are two types of IPMC members who are not 
> subscribed to private@. Those who are Apache Members who can always ask to 
> rejoin and others who were voted onto the IPMC would need to be added again - 
> let’s limit mistakes with the second group. [1]

There's 6 people that I count in the second group, the first group is a lot 
larger.

> I would suggest that the list presented to the board be all who are not 
> subscribed minus any who have signed off on a podling report since January 1, 
> 2019.

I had already filtered to list for couple of people I know that where active, 
but there's a couple of mentors who may of signed off a report.

> Those in that category should be reached out to directly

All have been reached directly already.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Hi -

I concur with Greg. There are two types of IPMC members who are not subscribed 
to private@. Those who are Apache Members who can always ask to rejoin and 
others who were voted onto the IPMC would need to be added again - let’s limit 
mistakes with the second group. [1]

I would suggest that the list presented to the board be all who are not 
subscribed minus any who have signed off on a podling report since January 1, 
2019. Those in that category should be reached out to directly - I noticed at 
least one. I also noticed at least two in the second group who did very little 
to nothing when they were mentors.

Regards,
Dave

[1] https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/committee/incubator

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 21, 2020, at 6:34 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> IMO, involuntary mailing list subscription is not the right choice. …
> 
> Thanks for your opinion, I’ll consider what to do some more.
> 
>> Putting them onto a mailing list could anger them (think about it: would you 
>> be
>> happy, if I subscribed you to (say) priv...@tomee.apache.org?). 
> 
> If I was required to be subscribed to that list I would have no issue with 
> it, probably even thankful that you had sorted something I’d forgotten about, 
> but sure others may react differently.
> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
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> 

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> IMO, involuntary mailing list subscription is not the right choice. …

Thanks for your opinion, I’ll consider what to do some more.

>  Putting them onto a mailing list could anger them (think about it: would you 
> be
> happy, if I subscribed you to (say) priv...@tomee.apache.org?). 

If I was required to be subscribed to that list I would have no issue with it, 
probably even thankful that you had sorted something I’d forgotten about, but 
sure others may react differently.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Greg Stein]

IMO, involuntary mailing list subscription is not the right choice. ...
Just take your list of AWOL non-responders to the Board, and ask if there
are any objections to placing them on a "removal" resolution for the
February meeting. The Board may provide some guidance/steps to take. Or
they may say "roll with it. submit a resolution".

In other words, go with the least imposition on the missing IPMC peeps.
Assume they're just not interested, so they didn't respond to you. Putting
them onto a mailing list could anger them (think about it: would you be
happy, if I subscribed you to (say) priv...@tomee.apache.org?). And take
the position they can be re-added to the IPMC, any time, if the (upcoming)
removal happened to be in error.

Cheers,
-g


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:24 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > There is another (perhaps more obvious) solution and that is to sign
> these people up to the mailing list.
>
> I’ve not had any feedback on this, so unless someone else has some input,
> I’m going to assign lazy consensus applies and this is what I’m going to do:
>
> 1. Subscribe all missing IPMC members to the private list
> 2. If some complain ask if they want to continue to be IPMC members
> 3. If too many complain, remove them and discussion with the board on the
> possibility of removing these IPMC members. This would involve contacting
> them again so they are clear on what would happen if they don’t sign up.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> There is another (perhaps more obvious) solution and that is to sign these 
> people up to the mailing list.

I’ve not had any feedback on this, so unless someone else has some input, I’m 
going to assign lazy consensus applies and this is what I’m going to do:

1. Subscribe all missing IPMC members to the private list
2. If some complain ask if they want to continue to be IPMC members
3. If too many complain, remove them and discussion with the board on the 
possibility of removing these IPMC members. This would involve contacting them 
again so they are clear on what would happen if they don’t sign up.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

There is another (perhaps more obvious) solution and that is to sign these 
people up to the mailing list.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 9:10 PM Dave Fisher  wrote:

> Hi -
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Justin Mclean 
> wrote:
>
>...

> > In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are
> removed from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board
> report and if there no objections from the board they would then be
> considered non longer IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately
> reflect who is actually a IPMC member at a point in time.
> >
> > What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not
> signed up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by
> performing one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove
> them from the IPMC.
>

There is no distinct "roster" and "membership".

The canonical "source of truth" on committee membership is
committee-info.txt. Everything falls out from that. The "roster" that
Whimsy displays. How LDAP gets configured. etc. The Foundation uses that
file to record changes, and membership. Removing somebody from that file
can only be performed via Board resolution.

(of course, unless you mean something else by "roster")

I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members.
> The only exception would be those who have gone emeritus or have passed on.
> The driver is membership.
>

Disagree. That does not comport with history/precedent. See below.


> An IPMC Member who is not a Member and is no longer subscribed should be
> consider individually on private@i.a.o.
>
> The Board evaluates PMCs via roll calls on private@. I’m not aware of
> cases of PMCs throwing people off w/o a resignation and as you Justin
> should be aware the Board goes to the extreme to prevent it. (The current
> Board may differ from prior Boards, but let’s not test it!)
>

There have been a number of cases of involuntary removal. Although I'm
using "involuntary" in only the loosest sense here, because the people
indicated no desire one way or another. About 15 people were removed from
the Apache HTTPD PMC in November 2014:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2014/board_minutes_2014_11_19.txt

There have been a couple other cases, too.

Let me also fine-tune a statement above, Dave: "cases of PMCs throwing
people off". That is not possible. Only the Board can do that.

> Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up
> to the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they
> actually on it in the first place?
>

I cannot speak for the Board, but I believe they would be amenable to
removing those IPMC members, if and only if, there have been one or more
attempts to reach out to them. The Apache HTTPD spent a year or two, with
several calls to see if anybody wanted to remain. The 15 delivered to the
Board was the result of that activity. As you can see from the Minutes, the
Board approved the resolution and removed all 15.

Cheers,
-g

Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> I think also that we should contact and notifying them 

We have about 10% responded by signing up or aedsking to be removed.

Thanks.
Justin

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RE: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Jerpelea, Alin]

I think also that we should contact and notifying them 

Alin


-Original Message-
From: Dave Fisher  
Sent: den 17 januari 2020 04:10
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to 
private list)

Hi -

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" 
>> not one they typically support.
> 
> +1 We are not considering removing inactive IPMC members, they can ask be be 
> removed if that want to be, but until then we’re happy to have them.
> 
> In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are removed 
> from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board report and if 
> there no objections from the board they would then be considered non longer 
> IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately reflect who is actually a 
> IPMC member at a point in time.
> 
> What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not signed 
> up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by performing 
> one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove them from the 
> IPMC.

I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members. The 
only exception would be those who have gone emeritus or have passed on. The 
driver is membership.

An IPMC Member who is not a Member and is no longer subscribed should be 
consider individually on private@i.a.o.

The Board evaluates PMCs via roll calls on private@. I’m not aware of cases of 
PMCs throwing people off w/o a resignation and as you Justin should be aware 
the Board goes to the extreme to prevent it. (The current Board may differ from 
prior Boards, but let’s not test it!)

> 
> Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up to 
> the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they 
> actually on it in the first place?

I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.

Thanks Greg.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Dave Fisher]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members. 
> 
> That's what I was saying. But in that case do they need to be on the roster?

Yes, the roster is the source of record of the PMC membership.

> 
>> I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.
> 
> 
> OK. They where contacted and asked a week ago and will contacted and ask 
> again. Given previous response I’m only expecting a few (5-10%) to respond.
> 
> Shanes suggestion was "I suggest sending one last reminder to people not 
> subscribed, wait a week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the 
> IPMC”, now I took that to to be removal from the roster rather than the IPMC 
> but he may mean IPMC removal. Greg and Bertrand's messages seem to imply 
> actually removal.

There may not be agreement about this. I think we will need clarity from the 
Board as a whole. Please send a simple request to board@ regarding involuntary 
removal due to silence/non-subscription. Please include some measure in time. 
Eg. after 1 year, 1 month, or ? Maybe a PMC will need to VOTE. I don’t want to 
set a precedent that is a problem for any PMC. What works for the Incubator 
should work for POI, OpenOffice, Hadoop, Lucene, etc.

Regards,
Dave

PS. Your recent pings of podlings has really helped. After years ECharts has 
all the initial PPMC subscribed.

> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members. 

That's what I was saying. But in that case do they need to be on the roster?

> I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.


OK. They where contacted and asked a week ago and will contacted and ask again. 
Given previous response I’m only expecting a few (5-10%) to respond.

Shanes suggestion was "I suggest sending one last reminder to people not 
subscribed, wait a week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the 
IPMC”, now I took that to to be removal from the roster rather than the IPMC 
but he may mean IPMC removal. Greg and Bertrand's messages seem to imply 
actually removal.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Dave Fisher]

Hi -

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:56 PM, Justin Mclean  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" not
>> one they typically support.
> 
> +1 We are not considering removing inactive IPMC members, they can ask be be 
> removed if that want to be, but until then we’re happy to have them.
> 
> In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are removed 
> from the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board report and if 
> there no objections from the board they would then be considered non longer 
> IPMC members. So a roster may not 100% accurately reflect who is actually a 
> IPMC member at a point in time.
> 
> What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not signed 
> up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by performing 
> one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove them from the 
> IPMC.

I think that without an explicit resignation they must remain IPMC members. The 
only exception would be those who have gone emeritus or have passed on. The 
driver is membership.

An IPMC Member who is not a Member and is no longer subscribed should be 
consider individually on private@i.a.o.

The Board evaluates PMCs via roll calls on private@. I’m not aware of cases of 
PMCs throwing people off w/o a resignation and as you Justin should be aware 
the Board goes to the extreme to prevent it. (The current Board may differ from 
prior Boards, but let’s not test it!)

> 
> Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up to 
> the private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they 
> actually on it in the first place?

I’m for contacting and asking, but not for forcing.

Thanks Greg.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" not
> one they typically support.

+1 We are not considering removing inactive IPMC members, they can ask be be 
removed if that want to be, but until then we’re happy to have them.

In the case of people asking to be removed from the IPMC, they are removed from 
the roster, this is reported in the next Incubator board report and if there no 
objections from the board they would then be considered non longer IPMC 
members. So a roster may not 100% accurately reflect who is actually a IPMC 
member at a point in time.

What we would be doing is removing people from the roster who have not signed 
up to the private list and they can be added back to the roster by performing 
one simple action. We would not be asking the board to remove them from the 
IPMC.

Alternatively do any of the board members here think that not signing up to the 
private mailing list is grounds for removal from a PMC? Where they actually on 
it in the first place?

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 9:59 AM Nathan Hartman 
wrote:
>...

> This should be documented clearly under expectations from IPMC members. If
> there is a period of inactivity after which IPMC members will be removed,
> then people should know this up front.
>

Only the Board can remove members from a PMC, and "lack of activity" not
one they typically support. They _have_ supported "we reached out several
times over the course of a year, and got no response" as valid. ... The
consideration for IPMC member removal might be a bit lower for the IPMC
since it is (currently) has a low bar for joining for ASF Members.

As Justin notes elsethread, the random "IPMC person pops up for activity
one week, then goes silent for two years" is a valid and supported pattern.

Cheers,
-g

Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> This should be documented clearly under expectations from IPMC members.

It is an expectation that all PMC members sign up to their private mailing 
list, that applies to all projects not just the Incubator.

When you joined the IPMC you should of received a welcome message [1] which 
included how to sign up to the private list. I know that some people in the 
past on the IPMC may of not got this message, all recent people have..

> If there is a period of inactivity after which IPMC members will be removed,
> then people should know this up front.

There’s is not. People who are inactivate can be active again and we do get 
votes on releases from people who are mostly inactive in other ways.

There is an expectation that mentor will remain active and if not step down so 
replacements can be found as needed.

Thanks,.
Justin

1. 
https://incubator.apache.org/guides/chair.html#adding_new_incubator_pmc_members
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

> If Justin's still volunteering for this (thanks!)

Yep I am.

> If they aren't on private@, they're not actively providing oversight.

And that’s the issue. They should be signed up general@ as well as most things 
go in there.

In the email that was sent out to them all, how to subscribe (via email and via 
whimsy) was included. 

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

HI,

> That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
> going to happen.
> 
> We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
> and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
> actually active.

I’m not sure how many are PPMC membersactive, but with the mentors about 10-15 
of them are inactive to some extent, we do have active PPMC members who are not 
mentors.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Nathan Hartman]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 10:14 AM Shane Curcuru  wrote:

> If Justin's still volunteering for this (thanks!), I suggest sending one
> last reminder to people not subscribed (with the above link), wait a
> week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the IPMC.  If they
> aren't on private@, they're not actively providing oversight.


This should be documented clearly under expectations from IPMC members. If
there is a period of inactivity after which IPMC members will be removed,
then people should know this up front.

Nathan

How to subscribe (was: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list)

[Shane Curcuru]

Reminder: this Whimsy tool for committers can subscribe/unsubscribe you
from almost any list that you're allowed to subscribe to (i.e. including
PPMC lists or private@ if you have permissions for them)

  https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe

Justin Mclean wrote on 2020-1-9 7:47PM EST:
> Hi,
> 
> A number of IPMC members are not subscribed to teh Incubator private list. 
> This also includes some current mentors. I’ve just sent out a friendly email 
> to those not subscribed asking them to subscribe.

If Justin's still volunteering for this (thanks!), I suggest sending one
last reminder to people not subscribed (with the above link), wait a
week, and then remove those still not subscribed from the IPMC.  If they
aren't on private@, they're not actively providing oversight.

-- 

- Shane
  IPMC & Member
  The Apache Software Foundation

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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Inline

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 4:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
>> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:25 AM Justin Mclean  
>> wrote:
>> ...Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC from the PMC 
>> who are not signed
>> up to the private mailing list? They could re-instated themselves by 
>> subscribing to the private list...
> 
> That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
> going to happen.
> 
> We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
> and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
> actually active.

Http://Incubator.apache.org/clutch shows the list of current mentors. There are 
86. A good rule for approximation is 2 x the number of podlings (46)

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Bertrand
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> 


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Hi Ning,

I think I recall that I woke up one morning to find four subscription requests 
from you. It could have been someone else. All requests to private-subscribe 
need a human response to an email to the moderators. The moderator then must 
respond to the most recent request. Multiple requests end up increasing the 
likelihood of frustration.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 12:53 AM, Ning Wang  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It took me a few months before successfully signed up the private@ mailng
> list after Josh told me the trick (go to
> https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe and subscribe there) :(
> I am feeling that many of these people might have tried the normal way
> (sending a subscribe email to the mailing list) and failed (and it is not
> clear how to verify).
> 
> Maybe it is better to send them the trick (I mean the instruction) and then
> give them some time before cleaning up?
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:25 PM Justin Mclean 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC
>> members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of
>> IPMC members are still not subscribed to the private list.
>> 
>> A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all
>> IPMC from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They
>> could re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>> 
>> 


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Dave Fisher]

Hi -

I signed up to moderate private@incubator sometime last year. I’ve confirmed 
many subscriptions since. This includes several in the past week.

In order to help their podlings Mentors need to understand moderation in order 
to establish the podling PPMC properly.

Doing a search on www.apache.org should help find out how. Or ask here.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2020, at 6:39 AM, Greg Stein  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:41 AM Trevor Grant 
> wrote:
> 
>> @Greg, I would echo Ning's point.
>> 
> 
> I saw Ning's post before my own response, and (frankly) have little
> sympathy. Email exists to ask questions and solve problems. "I can't get
> subscribed. Please help" is very easy to send. If a member of the IPMC has
> not bothered, then they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. I am
> also guessing that Justin is only considering members of the IPMC that
> joined (say) more than a year ago. So we could say "if you want to join the
> IPMC, we'll give you an ENTIRE YEAR to figure out how to join one of the
> mailing lists at Apache". ... and to return to my original point: no
> sympathy. If "you" cannot figure out how to subscribe to an Apache mailing
> list over the span of a mere week, then what are you doing as an IPMC
> Member and/or Mentor?
> 
> Personal responsibility.
> 
> Step up. Figure it out. Get it done.
> -g


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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Greg Stein]

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:41 AM Trevor Grant 
wrote:

> @Greg, I would echo Ning's point.
>

I saw Ning's post before my own response, and (frankly) have little
sympathy. Email exists to ask questions and solve problems. "I can't get
subscribed. Please help" is very easy to send. If a member of the IPMC has
not bothered, then they are not fulfilling their responsibilities. I am
also guessing that Justin is only considering members of the IPMC that
joined (say) more than a year ago. So we could say "if you want to join the
IPMC, we'll give you an ENTIRE YEAR to figure out how to join one of the
mailing lists at Apache". ... and to return to my original point: no
sympathy. If "you" cannot figure out how to subscribe to an Apache mailing
list over the span of a mere week, then what are you doing as an IPMC
Member and/or Mentor?

Personal responsibility.

Step up. Figure it out. Get it done.
-g

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Trevor Grant]

@Greg, I would echo Ning's point.

I've been trying to be an active mentor- and found that I am deficient in
most, if not all, of the technical things I need to be doing (like signed
up for mailing lists) bc no one ever told me.

The first whiff that something was wrong we had an email to
private@my-poding that simply stated "multiple people need to be signed up
for this list"  but there was no pointer to what list the email was even
referring to.

So before booting a bunch of well meaning mentors- I agree that corrective
guidance should please be given.

The private list thing seems like a good idea, but it took me a month to
even get setup for that. (From time of volunteering to mentor to when I got
granted as an IPMC in whatever system that allowed me to sign up).  Which
goes back to Justin's original email- how does one sign up for private@ if
one is not a member of the PMC??

tg




On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:48 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacre...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:25 AM Justin Mclean 
> wrote:
> > ...Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC from the
> PMC who are not signed
> > up to the private mailing list? They could re-instated themselves by
> subscribing to the private list...
>
> That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
> going to happen.
>
> We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
> and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
> actually active.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 6:25 AM Justin Mclean  wrote:
> ...Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC from the PMC 
> who are not signed
> up to the private mailing list? They could re-instated themselves by 
> subscribing to the private list...

That would work for me, after sending them a warning that this is
going to happen.

We probably have many inactive PMC members - Whimsy lists 298 of them
and 46 podlings so I suppose we don't have more than 100 PMC members
actually active.

-Bertrand

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Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Greg Stein]

In the past, I've made my position clear: if an IPMC member cannot be
bothered to get themselves subscribed to the private list, then they are
not providing appropriate oversight, and (thus) should be removed from the
PMC. They can continue to contribute via the general@ list, but lose their
(binding) status due to removal from the IPMC.

Cheers,
-g


On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 11:25 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC
> members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of
> IPMC members are still not subscribed to the private list.
>
> A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all
> IPMC from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They
> could re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Ning Wang]

Hi,

It took me a few months before successfully signed up the private@ mailng
list after Josh told me the trick (go to
https://whimsy.apache.org/committers/subscribe and subscribe there) :(
I am feeling that many of these people might have tried the normal way
(sending a subscribe email to the mailing list) and failed (and it is not
clear how to verify).

Maybe it is better to send them the trick (I mean the instruction) and then
give them some time before cleaning up?



On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:25 PM Justin Mclean 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC
> members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of
> IPMC members are still not subscribed to the private list.
>
> A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all
> IPMC from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They
> could re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

I can see a couple of people have signed up and a couple of inactive IPMC 
members have asked to be removed. However we still have a large number of IPMC 
members are still not subscribed to the private list.

A possible idea. Do we want to consider the drastic step of removing all IPMC 
from the PMC who are not signed up to the private mailing list? They could 
re-instated themselves by subscribing to the private list.

Thanks,
Justin
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Incubator PMC members not subscribed to general list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

There were also a number (85) IPMC members who seem not be not subscribed to 
the general list, including a couple of mentors. although it a little hard to 
tell due to name / apache id and email matching.

(I removed all of the subscribed apache.org ones, of those that were left did a 
loose mach on name combinations and for those that where left after that looked 
them up in the Apache phone book for alternative emails.)

I’ve sent them a friendly email asking them to subscribe. Currently there’s 
1338 subscribers to this list, so hopefully we see a change in that.

Thanks,
Justin
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Incubator PMC members not subscribed to private list

[Justin Mclean]

Hi,

A number of IPMC members are not subscribed to teh Incubator private list. This 
also includes some current mentors. I’ve just sent out a friendly email to 
those not subscribed asking them to subscribe.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Six new Incubator PMC members

[Luke Han]

Welcome


Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré 
wrote:

> Welcome aboard guys !
>
> Regards
> JB
>
>
> On 11/07/2015 05:43 AM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I'm delighted to welcome six new members of the Incubator PMC!
>>
>> *   Tom Barber (magicaltrout), PMC Chair of OODT.
>> *   Patrick Wendell (pwendell), PMC member of Spark and committer
>>  on Avro and Flume.
>> *   Reynold Xin (rxin), PMC member of Spark.
>> *   Phil Sorber (sorber), PMC member for TrafficServer.
>> *   Julien Le Dem (julien), PMC Chair of Parquet, PMC member of Pig and
>> Tez.
>> *   Jacques Nadeau (jacques), PMC Chair of Drill, PMC member of Calcite.
>>
>> Welcome aboard -- we can't wait to see how you will help our podling
>> communities succeed!
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
> --
> Jean-Baptiste Onofré
> jbono...@apache.org
> http://blog.nanthrax.net
> Talend - http://www.talend.com
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Six new Incubator PMC members

[Jacques Nadeau]

Thanks! Looking forward to helping out in new ways.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 9:57 PM, Henry Saputra 
wrote:

> Welcome!
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Marvin Humphrey 
> wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I'm delighted to welcome six new members of the Incubator PMC!
> >
> > *   Tom Barber (magicaltrout), PMC Chair of OODT.
> > *   Patrick Wendell (pwendell), PMC member of Spark and committer
> > on Avro and Flume.
> > *   Reynold Xin (rxin), PMC member of Spark.
> > *   Phil Sorber (sorber), PMC member for TrafficServer.
> > *   Julien Le Dem (julien), PMC Chair of Parquet, PMC member of Pig and
> Tez.
> > *   Jacques Nadeau (jacques), PMC Chair of Drill, PMC member of Calcite.
> >
> > Welcome aboard -- we can't wait to see how you will help our podling
> > communities succeed!
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
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>
>

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Six new Incubator PMC members

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré]

Welcome aboard guys !

Regards
JB

On 11/07/2015 05:43 AM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

Greetings,

I'm delighted to welcome six new members of the Incubator PMC!

*   Tom Barber (magicaltrout), PMC Chair of OODT.
*   Patrick Wendell (pwendell), PMC member of Spark and committer
 on Avro and Flume.
*   Reynold Xin (rxin), PMC member of Spark.
*   Phil Sorber (sorber), PMC member for TrafficServer.
*   Julien Le Dem (julien), PMC Chair of Parquet, PMC member of Pig and Tez.
*   Jacques Nadeau (jacques), PMC Chair of Drill, PMC member of Calcite.

Welcome aboard -- we can't wait to see how you will help our podling
communities succeed!

Marvin Humphrey

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--
Jean-Baptiste Onofré
jbono...@apache.org
http://blog.nanthrax.net
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Six new Incubator PMC members

[Henry Saputra]

Welcome!

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 8:43 PM, Marvin Humphrey  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I'm delighted to welcome six new members of the Incubator PMC!
>
> *   Tom Barber (magicaltrout), PMC Chair of OODT.
> *   Patrick Wendell (pwendell), PMC member of Spark and committer
> on Avro and Flume.
> *   Reynold Xin (rxin), PMC member of Spark.
> *   Phil Sorber (sorber), PMC member for TrafficServer.
> *   Julien Le Dem (julien), PMC Chair of Parquet, PMC member of Pig and Tez.
> *   Jacques Nadeau (jacques), PMC Chair of Drill, PMC member of Calcite.
>
> Welcome aboard -- we can't wait to see how you will help our podling
> communities succeed!
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>

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[ANNOUNCE] Six new Incubator PMC members

[Marvin Humphrey]

Greetings,

I'm delighted to welcome six new members of the Incubator PMC!

*   Tom Barber (magicaltrout), PMC Chair of OODT.
*   Patrick Wendell (pwendell), PMC member of Spark and committer
on Avro and Flume.
*   Reynold Xin (rxin), PMC member of Spark.
*   Phil Sorber (sorber), PMC member for TrafficServer.
*   Julien Le Dem (julien), PMC Chair of Parquet, PMC member of Pig and Tez.
*   Jacques Nadeau (jacques), PMC Chair of Drill, PMC member of Calcite.

Welcome aboard -- we can't wait to see how you will help our podling
communities succeed!

Marvin Humphrey

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Welcome Anne Kathrine Petterøe and Dave Fisher as Incubator PMC members

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Hi,

I'm pleased to announce that Anne and Dave have been elected by the
Incubator PMC to be members of that PMC.

With this the Flex mentors roster is complete, thanks for volunteering!

-Bertrand

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Re: Welcome Anne Kathrine Petterøe and Dave Fisher as Incubator PMC members

[Peter Elst]

Excellent news, welcome and thanks for volunteering as mentors Anne and
Dave!

- Peter


On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org
 wrote:

 Hi,

 I'm pleased to announce that Anne and Dave have been elected by the
 Incubator PMC to be members of that PMC.

 With this the Flex mentors roster is complete, thanks for volunteering!

 -Bertrand

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Re: Welcome Anne Kathrine Petterøe and Dave Fisher as Incubator PMC members

[Anne Kathrine Petterøe]

Hi,

What a great way to start the day and the new year. Thanks everyone who voted!
Looking forward to mentoring Apache Flex!

/Anne


On 3 January 2012 11:07, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote:
 Hi,

 I'm pleased to announce that Anne and Dave have been elected by the
 Incubator PMC to be members of that PMC.

 With this the Flex mentors roster is complete, thanks for volunteering!

 -Bertrand

 -
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Re: Welcome Anne Kathrine Petterøe and Dave Fisher as Incubator PMC members

[Mattmann, Chris A (388J)]

Welcome Anne and Dave!

Cheers,
Chris

On Jan 3, 2012, at 2:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I'm pleased to announce that Anne and Dave have been elected by the
 Incubator PMC to be members of that PMC.
 
 With this the Flex mentors roster is complete, thanks for volunteering!
 
 -Bertrand
 
 -
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++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattm...@nasa.gov
WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++


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Re: Welcome Anne Kathrine Petterøe and Dave Fisher as Incubator PMC members

[Dave Fisher]

On Jan 3, 2012, at 2:07 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I'm pleased to announce that Anne and Dave have been elected by the
 Incubator PMC to be members of that PMC.

Thanks!

 
 With this the Flex mentors roster is complete, thanks for volunteering!

You're welcome!

Regards,
Dave

 
 -Bertrand
 
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Re: Incubator PMC members

[Jeremy Hughes]

I'm a committer on WS project but can't access that file. Is it just
accessible by board members, not all committers?

Jeremy

On 1/27/06, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Since that is a private repository, how is a public link going to benefit
 anyone who isn't a Committer?

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Re: Incubator PMC members

[Upayavira]

Jeremy Hughes wrote:
 I'm a committer on WS project but can't access that file. Is it just
 accessible by board members, not all committers?

You were missing from a list of committers in svn auth config. I've
added you, so you should now be able to see it.

Regards, Upayavira


 On 1/27/06, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
Since that is a private repository, how is a public link going to benefit
anyone who isn't a Committer?
 
 
 -
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RE: Incubator PMC members

[Noel J. Bergman]

Doug Cutting wrote:

 So as mentor to Solr now and Nutch before, I am on the Incubator PMC.

Actually not, but I'm fixing that.  I need to ping the board, which I have
done and get the ACK.  Other than that, you're good to go.

 There look to be a few other mentors listed at:
 http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html
 who are not also listed on the PMC.

Referential integrity.  :-\  The OFFICIAL LIST of PMC members for all PMCs
is maintained in the committers module.  If someone wants to write a script
that will keep the web site current with the official roster, fine.  Else it
will get updated when someone rememebers.

If there are any active Mentors who are not in the official list, please let
me know ASAP.

--- Noel


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Re: Incubator PMC members

[Doug Cutting]

Martin Sebor wrote:

Is this list up to date?

http://incubator.apache.org/whoweare.html#PMC+%28Project+Management+Commitee%29 


All mentors are PMC members, according to:

http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Mentor

So as mentor to Solr now and Nutch before, I am on the Incubator PMC.

There look to be a few other mentors listed at:

http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html

who are not also listed on the PMC.

Doug

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Re: Incubator PMC members

[Martin Sebor]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:
[...]

Referential integrity.  :-\  The OFFICIAL LIST of PMC members for all PMCs
is maintained in the committers module.  If someone wants to write a script
that will keep the web site current with the official roster, fine.  Else it
will get updated when someone rememebers.


I assume the committers module is this file:
https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/committee-info.txt

May I suggest to include a link to the document on the page along
with a date when the names were last updated from the document?
That way readers will know where to get the most up to date info.

Martin

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RE: Incubator PMC members

[Noel J. Bergman]

Martin Sebor wrote:

 https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/committee-info.txt
 May I suggest to include a link to the document on the page along
 with a date when the names were last updated from the document?

There are dates in the file.  Those without dates have been around since
before that policy was established.

 That way readers will know where to get the most up to date info.

Since that is a private repository, how is a public link going to benefit
anyone who isn't a Committer?

--- Noel


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Re: Incubator PMC members

[Martin Sebor]

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

Martin Sebor wrote:



https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/committee-info.txt
May I suggest to include a link to the document on the page along
with a date when the names were last updated from the document?



There are dates in the file.  Those without dates have been around since
before that policy was established.


I meant a date on the Web page with the date of the last time this
portion of the page was updated from the committee-info.txt.





That way readers will know where to get the most up to date info.



Since that is a private repository, how is a public link going to benefit
anyone who isn't a Committer?


I would have found it useful since I didn't know (or rather forgot)
about the committer module (I had to look up the term on Google to
find it. I suspect there might be others like me around here :)

Martin

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Incubator PMC members

[Martin Sebor]

Is this list up to date?

http://incubator.apache.org/whoweare.html#PMC+%28Project+Management+Commitee%29

I assume Justin and Bill Rowe are both members but I don't their
names there.

Thanks
Martin

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