Re: launch trajectories
On 7/5/2011 7:36 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: Anyhow, what do other think? Should mentors be pushing early and often on this subject, or is it reasonable wait for, oh, 18 months and a few releases before getting pushy? 18 months and 'a few releases', with no obstacle but attracting more committers, seems like overtime in incubator. Provided everything else is golden, ensure you've worked with them on the podling private list so that they know what to expect when new committers show up, and how they will go about voting to grant commit privileges/tlp rights, and put them up for graduation already. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
I wasn't clear on the timing. They launched in Nov 2010 and have made one release. It will be 18 months in June of 2012. the question I was trying to explore was, 'how essential is it to have shown that they can attract and integrate new people before hatching?' Your answer seems to be 'not critical if everything else is OK'. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:40 AM, William A. Rowe Jr. wr...@rowe-clan.net wrote: On 7/5/2011 7:36 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: Anyhow, what do other think? Should mentors be pushing early and often on this subject, or is it reasonable wait for, oh, 18 months and a few releases before getting pushy? 18 months and 'a few releases', with no obstacle but attracting more committers, seems like overtime in incubator. Provided everything else is golden, ensure you've worked with them on the podling private list so that they know what to expect when new committers show up, and how they will go about voting to grant commit privileges/tlp rights, and put them up for graduation already. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
I personally would say that bringing in new people is important. It is an important part of showing your project to be viable, that it is interesting enough to draw in new talent. Otherwise it is going to rely permanently on the existing committers, which is not long term viable. If a project, during an 18 month incubation, cannot draw in new blood, how can we believe that it will do so as a TLP? Marketing of the project, getting it known, getting people using it enough so as to draw in new blood, is clearly a part of the incubation process. Upayavira On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 08:45 -0400, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: I wasn't clear on the timing. They launched in Nov 2010 and have made one release. It will be 18 months in June of 2012. the question I was trying to explore was, 'how essential is it to have shown that they can attract and integrate new people before hatching?' Your answer seems to be 'not critical if everything else is OK'. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 8:40 AM, William A. Rowe Jr. wr...@rowe-clan.net wrote: On 7/5/2011 7:36 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: Anyhow, what do other think? Should mentors be pushing early and often on this subject, or is it reasonable wait for, oh, 18 months and a few releases before getting pushy? 18 months and 'a few releases', with no obstacle but attracting more committers, seems like overtime in incubator. Provided everything else is golden, ensure you've worked with them on the podling private list so that they know what to expect when new committers show up, and how they will go about voting to grant commit privileges/tlp rights, and put them up for graduation already. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: ...If a project, during an 18 month incubation, cannot draw in new blood, how can we believe that it will do so as a TLP? Marketing of the project, getting it known, getting people using it enough so as to draw in new blood, is clearly a part of the incubation process I tend to agree, and maybe also lowering the bar for new committers (I have no idea if that's a problem in your podling). -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: ...If a project, during an 18 month incubation, cannot draw in new blood, how can we believe that it will do so as a TLP? Marketing of the project, getting it known, getting people using it enough so as to draw in new blood, is clearly a part of the incubation process I tend to agree, and maybe also lowering the bar for new committers (I have no idea if that's a problem in your podling). At the risk of getting shoes thrown at my by my fellow mentors ... I know something about the field of endeavour of this podling -- that's why I volunteered. I think that it is a very interesting question as to how many qualified, interested, potential committers are out there. Much of the work in the field is academic, and professors tend to keep their delslave labor/del graduate students otherwise occupied. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but, in a sense, that's the question posed by this podling: who's out there? Ironically, I might be writing a proposal this week for funding to assign people of mine to work on it, but there's no telling where that will go. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
Given the context you explained then I have to say I agree with both Bertrand and Upayavira. On the other hand, I don't see any harm not graduating from the Incubator and the project staying there for longer time till the criteria of having more new blood into the project is satisfied, and specifically in your context new blood should also come from out side the context of graduate students, maybe some other research schools/institutes or even commercial companies seeing some benefit in what has been produced by this project. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: ...If a project, during an 18 month incubation, cannot draw in new blood, how can we believe that it will do so as a TLP? Marketing of the project, getting it known, getting people using it enough so as to draw in new blood, is clearly a part of the incubation process I tend to agree, and maybe also lowering the bar for new committers (I have no idea if that's a problem in your podling). At the risk of getting shoes thrown at my by my fellow mentors ... I know something about the field of endeavour of this podling -- that's why I volunteered. I think that it is a very interesting question as to how many qualified, interested, potential committers are out there. Much of the work in the field is academic, and professors tend to keep their delslave labor/del graduate students otherwise occupied. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but, in a sense, that's the question posed by this podling: who's out there? Ironically, I might be writing a proposal this week for funding to assign people of mine to work on it, but there's no telling where that will go. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Thanks - Mohammad Nour Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide) http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving - Albert Einstein Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less than your best. - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship Stay hungry, stay foolish. - Steve Jobs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
On 5 July 2011 14:07, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: ...If a project, during an 18 month incubation, cannot draw in new blood, how can we believe that it will do so as a TLP? Marketing of the project, getting it known, getting people using it enough so as to draw in new blood, is clearly a part of the incubation process I tend to agree, and maybe also lowering the bar for new committers (I have no idea if that's a problem in your podling). At the risk of getting shoes thrown at my by my fellow mentors ... I know something about the field of endeavour of this podling -- that's why I volunteered. I think that it is a very interesting question as to how many qualified, interested, potential committers are out there. Much of the work in the field is academic, and professors tend to keep their delslave labor/del graduate students otherwise occupied. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but, in a sense, that's the question posed by this podling: who's out there? Ironically, I might be writing a proposal this week for funding to assign people of mine to work on it, but there's no telling where that will go. I have plenty of experience of projects born inthe academic space. I would suggest that if the seven committers are all academic related then more caution is required than if they are from 3 or more independent commercial organisations. The problem is that once the funded for a given project has finished the academics are no longer interested and there is nobody to transition to a new development team. It can, of course, be argued that this is also true of companies investing in projects. They might pull the plug at any time. However, typically collaborating academics are all drawing from the same pot. They might look independent of one another, but the common funding makes them all prone to disappear at the same time. A further problem is that in the case of academic projects the driving force is, very often, not interested in the software as an output. They are interested in the research questions being addressed. Often longevity of the software is not important to their career paths. Consequently community development work is often lacking. These problems are not insurmountable nor are my observations always true. We do have projects that have their roots in academic circles, but I believe such projects need more active community development work. In summary I would suggest that caution be observed. Can you identify the project (offlist if you prefer). I'd like to take a quick look to see if I am aware of any overlaps in my network). Ross -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
No secret here. It's OpenNLP. On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 5 July 2011 14:07, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 2:52 PM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: ...If a project, during an 18 month incubation, cannot draw in new blood, how can we believe that it will do so as a TLP? Marketing of the project, getting it known, getting people using it enough so as to draw in new blood, is clearly a part of the incubation process I tend to agree, and maybe also lowering the bar for new committers (I have no idea if that's a problem in your podling). At the risk of getting shoes thrown at my by my fellow mentors ... I know something about the field of endeavour of this podling -- that's why I volunteered. I think that it is a very interesting question as to how many qualified, interested, potential committers are out there. Much of the work in the field is academic, and professors tend to keep their delslave labor/del graduate students otherwise occupied. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but, in a sense, that's the question posed by this podling: who's out there? Ironically, I might be writing a proposal this week for funding to assign people of mine to work on it, but there's no telling where that will go. I have plenty of experience of projects born inthe academic space. I would suggest that if the seven committers are all academic related then more caution is required than if they are from 3 or more independent commercial organisations. The problem is that once the funded for a given project has finished the academics are no longer interested and there is nobody to transition to a new development team. It can, of course, be argued that this is also true of companies investing in projects. They might pull the plug at any time. However, typically collaborating academics are all drawing from the same pot. They might look independent of one another, but the common funding makes them all prone to disappear at the same time. A further problem is that in the case of academic projects the driving force is, very often, not interested in the software as an output. They are interested in the research questions being addressed. Often longevity of the software is not important to their career paths. Consequently community development work is often lacking. These problems are not insurmountable nor are my observations always true. We do have projects that have their roots in academic circles, but I believe such projects need more active community development work. In summary I would suggest that caution be observed. Can you identify the project (offlist if you prefer). I'd like to take a quick look to see if I am aware of any overlaps in my network). Ross -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: launch trajectories
On 7/5/2011 7:45 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: I wasn't clear on the timing. They launched in Nov 2010 and have made one release. It will be 18 months in June of 2012. the question I was trying to explore was, 'how essential is it to have shown that they can attract and integrate new people before hatching?' Your answer seems to be 'not critical if everything else is OK'. In that case... late this year aught to be a good time to graduate them, it sounds like they will have created their second release. You dwelled on the question if no new committers were added... and the very simple solution to this issue is to offer to come along to their new PMC to simply help guide them with community, patch solicitation, contributor recognition, etc. It's often good if one or more mentors, even non-developers, come along to help with such things for a while. But it sounds like the question is only 7 committers, not independent? Having at least three independent contributors is absolutely necessary, or it isn't suitable for graduation. Where a majority of committers are all connected by employment, etc, it is critical to ensure that the committers acknowledge and demonstrate by their actions that from the ASF perspective, that common connection is not decisive on matters at the project, and they must act independently must not block any new individuals from participating/joining the PMC or otherwise trying to lock up the project in the long term for one organization's benefit. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
