Re: What is The Apache Way?
Hi Marvin, On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 9:28 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: a maturity model initiative (http://s.apache.org/apache_maturity_model) close in spirit to Shane's work on project requirements . Drawing on resources like Bertrand and Shane, I am confident that we can hammer out a top-level requirements document which would be complete, authentic enough to satisfy Jim, yet spartan enough to satisfy skeptics like Doug. ...If the Board is willing to commission such a document, I will make it happen... As others have said, consider yourself commissioned! My current thinking is that we should have an Apache Way page under http://apache.org/dev/ with minimal text, mostly links to basic principles (bylaws, maturity model etc), policies (trademarks, releases, infra etc) and oral tradition (slides, talks, blog posts etc). I suggest working on this on the dev@community.a.o and if you can lead that that's fantastic. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On 01/13/2015 03:28 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: I would pour my heart and soul into such a role. I would give everything I have to coordinate the delivery of minimalist authoritative documentation worthy of Apache's traditions. It would be a huge contribution to open source software, lightening the load for hundreds of projects and thousands of developers. ... Please assign me this task. Yes, with all of my various hats, I heartily endorse this task. You're right, this would be of great value both inside and outside of Apache. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On 1/16/15, 6:10 AM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: Yes, with all of my various hats, I heartily endorse this task. You're right, this would be of great value both inside and outside of Apache. I’m definitely eager to see what Marvin can do here. I’ve been wondering though: any top-level policy document cannot fully specify all human behavior. IMO, that’s why governing bodies have authority figures who make judgement calls. The US has a judicial system, the game of golf has a group of folks who make decisions. Is it the various VP’s that get to be the judge? I’ve often thought about golf when following Apache policy threads. Golf has a reasonably detailed rule book but they realize that there are lots of edge cases in real life and the rule book would be unwieldy if it tried to specify everything. So the rule book tries to carefully specify general principles and is rarely changed. Then there is a whole archive of decisions associated with each rule where this group of folks records decisions made. Is it reasonable to do something like this at Apache? Apache Legal seems to already have something like this. There are legal policy docs, then the legal-resolved page. One of the questions I often have when using legal-discuss is whether the answer I’m getting is authoritative or not. I know folks are leery about establishing a tier of folks who can authoritatively make the judgement calls, but maybe we have to have that so that folks know when they are getting an official answer vs the opinions of other community members. To become a golf rules official you have to pass a test. And to get on the board of official golf decision makers is a much harder task. Maybe we need a test in order to be an Apache Way Rules Official. -Alex - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
The archive is the mailing list archives and issue trackers. If an authoritative answer is required then we have VPs who are empowered to make operational decisions relating to policy and a Board empowered to make community decisions (and oversee the operational side). As you say, we try not to have a top down approach, but sometimes it is necessary. Ross Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: Alex Harui [mailto:aha...@adobe.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 9:12 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On 1/16/15, 6:10 AM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: Yes, with all of my various hats, I heartily endorse this task. You're right, this would be of great value both inside and outside of Apache. I’m definitely eager to see what Marvin can do here. I’ve been wondering though: any top-level policy document cannot fully specify all human behavior. IMO, that’s why governing bodies have authority figures who make judgement calls. The US has a judicial system, the game of golf has a group of folks who make decisions. Is it the various VP’s that get to be the judge? I’ve often thought about golf when following Apache policy threads. Golf has a reasonably detailed rule book but they realize that there are lots of edge cases in real life and the rule book would be unwieldy if it tried to specify everything. So the rule book tries to carefully specify general principles and is rarely changed. Then there is a whole archive of decisions associated with each rule where this group of folks records decisions made. Is it reasonable to do something like this at Apache? Apache Legal seems to already have something like this. There are legal policy docs, then the legal-resolved page. One of the questions I often have when using legal-discuss is whether the answer I’m getting is authoritative or not. I know folks are leery about establishing a tier of folks who can authoritatively make the judgement calls, but maybe we have to have that so that folks know when they are getting an official answer vs the opinions of other community members. To become a golf rules official you have to pass a test. And to get on the board of official golf decision makers is a much harder task. Maybe we need a test in order to be an Apache Way Rules Official. -Alex - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 12:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: My current thinking is that we should have an Apache Way page under http://apache.org/dev/ with minimal text, mostly links to basic principles (bylaws, maturity model etc), policies (trademarks, releases, infra etc) and oral tradition (slides, talks, blog posts etc). I suggest working on this on the dev@community.a.o and if you can lead that that's fantastic. I agree that this is a worthwhile endeavor and I'm happy to add it to the agenda. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 9:37 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: My assumption was that 'setting binding policy on projects' was something specifically excluded from my level of authority, as an officer derived from the Office of the President. If that is not the case, I am happy to define and publish such things within the realm of infrastructure. Hi David, Since it's seems that you're willing and we have good rapport, I think it might work well to kick things off with Infra. Here's my provisional agenda: 1. Hash out DRAFT policies with Infra. 2. Work with Legal Affairs to complete the release policy codification initiative. 3. Review the top level Project Requirements document. 4. ... I'm presently contemplating that Infrastructure would curate two policies: * Infrastructure Policy * Release Distribution Policy Infrastructure Policy would cover topics such as canonical repository location and usage of external services, as you and Doug discussed upthread. Release Distribution Policy would cover technical details of releasing, such as cryptographic signature specs, responsibility for keeping dist dirs tidy, and so on. These aspects are covered (incompletely) in the present Releases Policy (http://www.apache.org/dev/release), but are omitted from the clarified release policy which Legal Affairs is being asked to take ownership of (https://github.com/rectang/asfrelease) because they are outside Legal's domain. If that sounds workable, let me mull things over for a bit, then I plan to show up on infrastructure-dev@apache with some sketches. The content is ultimately your call and I don't expect to get all the details right, but before discussions commence in earnest, I'd like to mess around with language and high-level organization to seek out approaches that are as minimalist and flexible as possible. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
That's already in progress as part of this year's budget planning :-) Of course this is distinct from policy. For example: Should the policy say projects are limited to items on the infra core services list? Ross Sent from my Windows Phone From: Shane Curcurumailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org Sent: 1/15/2015 4:55 PM To: Marvin Humphreymailto:mar...@rectangular.com; general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? Dear David: I would *love* to see you propose whatever set of requirements that ASF infra as a service sees as appropriate for our projects, given our history, budget, and a view to ensuring reliable service for the future. Then, include a clear list of bullet points which should go into the Project Requirements document. Then president@/board@ can decide what to officially stamp as hard policy vs. recommended suggestions, put them in Project Requirements, and take the *DRAFT* off. But everything happens better when there's a concrete plan up front, and I'm confident your infra team will come up with the right requirements as relates to infra for projects. - Shane On 1/15/15 6:51 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 9:37 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: My assumption was that 'setting binding policy on projects' was something specifically excluded from my level of authority, as an officer derived from the Office of the President. If that is not the case, I am happy to define and publish such things within the realm of infrastructure. Hi David, Since it's seems that you're willing and we have good rapport, I think it might work well to kick things off with Infra. Here's my provisional agenda: 1. Hash out DRAFT policies with Infra. 2. Work with Legal Affairs to complete the release policy codification initiative. 3. Review the top level Project Requirements document. 4. ... I'm presently contemplating that Infrastructure would curate two policies: * Infrastructure Policy * Release Distribution Policy Infrastructure Policy would cover topics such as canonical repository location and usage of external services, as you and Doug discussed upthread. Release Distribution Policy would cover technical details of releasing, such as cryptographic signature specs, responsibility for keeping dist dirs tidy, and so on. These aspects are covered (incompletely) in the present Releases Policy (http://www.apache.org/dev/release), but are omitted from the clarified release policy which Legal Affairs is being asked to take ownership of (https://github.com/rectang/asfrelease) because they are outside Legal's domain. If that sounds workable, let me mull things over for a bit, then I plan to show up on infrastructure-dev@apache with some sketches. The content is ultimately your call and I don't expect to get all the details right, but before discussions commence in earnest, I'd like to mess around with language and high-level organization to seek out approaches that are as minimalist and flexible as possible. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 9:37 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: My assumption was that 'setting binding policy on projects' was something specifically excluded from my level of authority, as an officer derived from the Office of the President. If that is not the case, I am happy to define and publish such things within the realm of infrastructure. Hi David, Since it's seems that you're willing and we have good rapport, I think it might work well to kick things off with Infra. Here's my provisional agenda: 1. Hash out DRAFT policies with Infra. 2. Work with Legal Affairs to complete the release policy codification initiative. 3. Review the top level Project Requirements document. 4. ... I'm presently contemplating that Infrastructure would curate two policies: * Infrastructure Policy * Release Distribution Policy Infrastructure Policy would cover topics such as canonical repository location and usage of external services, as you and Doug discussed upthread. Release Distribution Policy would cover technical details of releasing, such as cryptographic signature specs, responsibility for keeping dist dirs tidy, and so on. These aspects are covered (incompletely) in the present Releases Policy (http://www.apache.org/dev/release), but are omitted from the clarified release policy which Legal Affairs is being asked to take ownership of (https://github.com/rectang/asfrelease) because they are outside Legal's domain. If that sounds workable, let me mull things over for a bit, then I plan to show up on infrastructure-dev@apache with some sketches. The content is ultimately your call and I don't expect to get all the details right, but before discussions commence in earnest, I'd like to mess around with language and high-level organization to seek out approaches that are as minimalist and flexible as possible. Marvin Humphrey Sounds good; I look forward to this coming to fruition. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Dear David: I would *love* to see you propose whatever set of requirements that ASF infra as a service sees as appropriate for our projects, given our history, budget, and a view to ensuring reliable service for the future. Then, include a clear list of bullet points which should go into the Project Requirements document. Then president@/board@ can decide what to officially stamp as hard policy vs. recommended suggestions, put them in Project Requirements, and take the *DRAFT* off. But everything happens better when there's a concrete plan up front, and I'm confident your infra team will come up with the right requirements as relates to infra for projects. - Shane On 1/15/15 6:51 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 9:37 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: My assumption was that 'setting binding policy on projects' was something specifically excluded from my level of authority, as an officer derived from the Office of the President. If that is not the case, I am happy to define and publish such things within the realm of infrastructure. Hi David, Since it's seems that you're willing and we have good rapport, I think it might work well to kick things off with Infra. Here's my provisional agenda: 1. Hash out DRAFT policies with Infra. 2. Work with Legal Affairs to complete the release policy codification initiative. 3. Review the top level Project Requirements document. 4. ... I'm presently contemplating that Infrastructure would curate two policies: * Infrastructure Policy * Release Distribution Policy Infrastructure Policy would cover topics such as canonical repository location and usage of external services, as you and Doug discussed upthread. Release Distribution Policy would cover technical details of releasing, such as cryptographic signature specs, responsibility for keeping dist dirs tidy, and so on. These aspects are covered (incompletely) in the present Releases Policy (http://www.apache.org/dev/release), but are omitted from the clarified release policy which Legal Affairs is being asked to take ownership of (https://github.com/rectang/asfrelease) because they are outside Legal's domain. If that sounds workable, let me mull things over for a bit, then I plan to show up on infrastructure-dev@apache with some sketches. The content is ultimately your call and I don't expect to get all the details right, but before discussions commence in earnest, I'd like to mess around with language and high-level organization to seek out approaches that are as minimalist and flexible as possible. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Please assign me this task. This is a do-ocracy. Just do it :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Good suggestion. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Jim Jagielskimailto:j...@jagunet.com Sent: 1/13/2015 9:33 AM To: general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? My thoughts are that Sally certainly groks the Apache Way, and knows who to contact for more detailed info and clarification. Why not add this as a task to HALO, and put some $$$ towards it? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Even better suggestion. Do you want to take it up with Sally directly? (and big thanks in advance) Sent from my Windows Phone From: Jim Jagielskimailto:j...@jagunet.com Sent: 1/13/2015 9:33 AM To: general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? If we go that route, I'll own it, since it makes sense as a VP Legal responsibility in a lot of ways. On Jan 13, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? My thoughts are that Sally certainly groks the Apache Way, and knows who to contact for more detailed info and clarification. Why not add this as a task to HALO, and put some $$$ towards it? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? My thoughts are that Sally certainly groks the Apache Way, and knows who to contact for more detailed info and clarification. Why not add this as a task to HALO, and put some $$$ towards it? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
If we go that route, I'll own it, since it makes sense as a VP Legal responsibility in a lot of ways. On Jan 13, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? My thoughts are that Sally certainly groks the Apache Way, and knows who to contact for more detailed info and clarification. Why not add this as a task to HALO, and put some $$$ towards it? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Well, David, I'm afraid you are the authoritative source on the policy you use as an example. :) Well - I suppose I did open myself up for that. If it's not documented and that's a problem then it's *your* problem. You could (given even more time to volunteer to the ASF, solve it however you like (e.g. Write the doc, ask the community to write it, ask for budget to have a contract write it, something else), but it's you and the infra team that own this. So, infra has a number of policies - like not keeping more than the current release on dist, giving us a heads up if your artifacts are going to be more 1GB, but they are largely centered around efficient operation of infrastructure, and not Apache Doctrine. Defining (and by extension enforcing) Apache Doctrine, means that infrastructure becomes the Foundation's policeman, at least in certain matters. Infrastructure, derives authority from the office of the President. Based on my reading of the bylaws, and the almost recent discussion around Brand issues - I walked away with the fact that the office of the President may not be able to set binding policy on projects. (differentiated from binding policy of how you may use resources of the Foundation). In the specific example I referenced - which came up in May (on board-private because there was a security issue related to it) I was told to carry the issue to the public board mailing list after the security issue was dealt with because it needed discussing. It did get discussed - release policy (which I think was later declared to be a legal issue), which is a board committee. After that thread revealed that there was no written policy, I explicitly asked several directors (individually) if that was within my scope to define, so as to remove the ambiguity and walked away with the impression that most of them felt it was not within my level of authority. I hope you won't take this personally, its not meant that way. As a volunteer you do a fantastic job and we are all immensely grateful. However, you did feed me a perfect way to illustrate the point I've been trying to make when highlighting docs and saying patches welcome. Not at all. My assumption was that 'setting binding policy on projects' was something specifically excluded from my level of authority, as an officer derived from the Office of the President. If that is not the case, I am happy to define and publish such things within the realm of infrastructure. Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? I'm working on the 2015 budget now. Any volunteers to own this? Ownership is ensuring that the individual gets access to all the appropriate VPs and that those VPs are able to provide the necessary input. I think Marvin could manage this well (yes, this is me pushing you in front of the bus, Marvin. My apologies). Failing that, I'm happy to tackle management of that. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Thanks for taking my comment the way it was intended (to fuel productive debate) :-) You are right that VPs don't set policy but they should write policy and submit to the board for tuning and/or approval/rejection. In turn those VPs will typically consult with their committee members. It really should be bottom up. This scales well. Looking to a board of 9 overworked directors to do everything for 150+ projects (and potentially adding podlings based on some IPMC recommendations) does not scale. That being said, you are correct the release policy is really a legal issue and thus is under VP Legal, with VP Infra needing to approve any policy since it has impact on what infra needs to deliver. Fortunately Jim has indicated he feels he owns much of this as VP Legal so you are off the hook and made your point well - a good result for you I think :-) Here's to Jim for stepping up and offering to try to heard the sheep on this one. Ross -Original Message- From: David Nalley [mailto:da...@gnsa.us] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:37 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Well, David, I'm afraid you are the authoritative source on the policy you use as an example. :) Well - I suppose I did open myself up for that. If it's not documented and that's a problem then it's *your* problem. You could (given even more time to volunteer to the ASF, solve it however you like (e.g. Write the doc, ask the community to write it, ask for budget to have a contract write it, something else), but it's you and the infra team that own this. So, infra has a number of policies - like not keeping more than the current release on dist, giving us a heads up if your artifacts are going to be more 1GB, but they are largely centered around efficient operation of infrastructure, and not Apache Doctrine. Defining (and by extension enforcing) Apache Doctrine, means that infrastructure becomes the Foundation's policeman, at least in certain matters. Infrastructure, derives authority from the office of the President. Based on my reading of the bylaws, and the almost recent discussion around Brand issues - I walked away with the fact that the office of the President may not be able to set binding policy on projects. (differentiated from binding policy of how you may use resources of the Foundation). In the specific example I referenced - which came up in May (on board-private because there was a security issue related to it) I was told to carry the issue to the public board mailing list after the security issue was dealt with because it needed discussing. It did get discussed - release policy (which I think was later declared to be a legal issue), which is a board committee. After that thread revealed that there was no written policy, I explicitly asked several directors (individually) if that was within my scope to define, so as to remove the ambiguity and walked away with the impression that most of them felt it was not within my level of authority. I hope you won't take this personally, its not meant that way. As a volunteer you do a fantastic job and we are all immensely grateful. However, you did feed me a perfect way to illustrate the point I've been trying to make when highlighting docs and saying patches welcome. Not at all. My assumption was that 'setting binding policy on projects' was something specifically excluded from my level of authority, as an officer derived from the Office of the President. If that is not the case, I am happy to define and publish such things within the realm of infrastructure. Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? I'm working on the 2015 budget now. Any volunteers to own this? Ownership is ensuring that the individual gets access to all the appropriate VPs and that those VPs are able to provide the necessary input. I think Marvin could manage this well (yes, this is me pushing you in front of the bus, Marvin. My apologies). Failing that, I'm happy to tackle management of that. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Roman Shaposhnik ro...@shaposhnik.org wrote: I think a better analogy would be US Culture. Yes it is as nebulous as it gets, but the fact that US Constitution exists as a written document makes a LOT of things WAY easier. Apache's constitution is the corporate bylaws: http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html US Culture is stuff like Starbucks, Elvis, Manifest Destiny, etc. Most of that is not coded as law, thankfully. Except that there generally aren't authority figures to whom I am answerable to telling me I am doing it wrong if I don't drink Pumpkin Spice Latte's while listening to Blue Suede Shoes. Going back to a conversation from the middle of last year as an example, there is no documented expectation (unless you consider Shane's recently created page authoritative) that the canonical source code repository must live on ASF hardware. Which is fine, we all know the reason why, but when newcomers show up, they don't, and it seems like we are a mass of unwritten rules that MUST be followed. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 10:43 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Roman Shaposhnik ro...@shaposhnik.org wrote: I think a better analogy would be US Culture. Yes it is as nebulous as it gets, but the fact that US Constitution exists as a written document makes a LOT of things WAY easier. Apache's constitution is the corporate bylaws: http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html US Culture is stuff like Starbucks, Elvis, Manifest Destiny, etc. Most of that is not coded as law, thankfully. Except that there generally aren't authority figures to whom I am answerable to telling me I am doing it wrong if I don't drink Pumpkin Spice Latte's while listening to Blue Suede Shoes. Going back to a conversation from the middle of last year as an example, there is no documented expectation (unless you consider Shane's recently created page authoritative) that the canonical source code repository must live on ASF hardware. Which is fine, we all know the reason why, but when newcomers show up, they don't, and it seems like we are a mass of unwritten rules that MUST be followed. And the fact that it seems a blindly obvious implication of the general principles to the 'old original' people around here does not help. At the Incubator, we're trying to teach people these principles via practice. Expecting them to draw the implications naturally from the principles at the outset of this process is asking too much of them and of us. A concrete idea that I doubt I have the time to volunteer for: Write a description of a prototypical, middle-of-the-road, Apache project. For as many salient characteristics as possible, write up the explanation of why the particular thing is the way it is. Use a practical example of the 'way' in operation to teach principles, instead of expecting it to work the other way around. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Well, David, I'm afraid you are the authoritative source on the policy you use as an example. If it's not documented and that's a problem then it's *your* problem. You could (given even more time to volunteer to the ASF, solve it however you like (e.g. Write the doc, ask the community to write it, ask for budget to have a contract write it, something else), but it's you and the infra team that own this. I hope you won't take this personally, its not meant that way. As a volunteer you do a fantastic job and we are all immensely grateful. However, you did feed me a perfect way to illustrate the point I've been trying to make when highlighting docs and saying patches welcome. Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? I'm working on the 2015 budget now. Any volunteers to own this? Ownership is ensuring that the individual gets access to all the appropriate VPs and that those VPs are able to provide the necessary input. Sent from my Windows Phone From: David Nalleymailto:da...@gnsa.us Sent: 1/13/2015 7:45 AM To: general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Roman Shaposhnik ro...@shaposhnik.org wrote: I think a better analogy would be US Culture. Yes it is as nebulous as it gets, but the fact that US Constitution exists as a written document makes a LOT of things WAY easier. Apache's constitution is the corporate bylaws: http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html US Culture is stuff like Starbucks, Elvis, Manifest Destiny, etc. Most of that is not coded as law, thankfully. Except that there generally aren't authority figures to whom I am answerable to telling me I am doing it wrong if I don't drink Pumpkin Spice Latte's while listening to Blue Suede Shoes. Going back to a conversation from the middle of last year as an example, there is no documented expectation (unless you consider Shane's recently created page authoritative) that the canonical source code repository must live on ASF hardware. Which is fine, we all know the reason why, but when newcomers show up, they don't, and it seems like we are a mass of unwritten rules that MUST be followed. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: ...Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth?... If we do that we'd better make it modular, so that one would be the truth *about infrastructure matters*. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Will do :) On Jan 13, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Even better suggestion. Do you want to take it up with Sally directly? (and big thanks in advance) Sent from my Windows Phone From: Jim Jagielskimailto:j...@jagunet.com Sent: 1/13/2015 9:33 AM To: general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? If we go that route, I'll own it, since it makes sense as a VP Legal responsibility in a lot of ways. On Jan 13, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? My thoughts are that Sally certainly groks the Apache Way, and knows who to contact for more detailed info and clarification. Why not add this as a task to HALO, and put some $$$ towards it? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 9:37 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: Perhaps it is time we hired a contractor to draw up the one document of truth? I'm working on the 2015 budget now. Any volunteers to own this? Ownership is ensuring that the individual gets access to all the appropriate VPs and that those VPs are able to provide the necessary input. I think Marvin could manage this well (yes, this is me pushing you in front of the bus, Marvin. My apologies). I would pour my heart and soul into such a role. I would give everything I have to coordinate the delivery of minimalist authoritative documentation worthy of Apache's traditions. It would be a huge contribution to open source software, lightening the load for hundreds of projects and thousands of developers. For the record, I have doubts about structuring it as a contract position. This is an editing task, and what I have observed in the past is that VPs have sometimes created policy documents which the Board felt were too expansive. It seems odd to budget for a process of potentially open-ended negotiation. Simply assigning this task, connoting Board endorsement of the concept, is enough for me. Bertrand cares deeply about these issues and has been working on them for a long time (http://s.apache.org/JNH). Recently, he has been occupied with a maturity model initiative (http://s.apache.org/apache_maturity_model) close in spirit to Shane's work on project requirements . Drawing on resources like Bertrand and Shane, I am confident that we can hammer out a top-level requirements document which would be complete, authentic enough to satisfy Jim, yet spartan enough to satisfy skeptics like Doug. If the Board is willing to commission such a document, I will make it happen. And I would be delighted to work with our VPs at the Board's request to refine project requirement documentation for their separate areas. Please assign me this task. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tuesday, January 13, 2015, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: ...If the Board is willing to commission such a document, I will make it happen That would be fantastic, I think you'd do a great job in coordinating this effort. As you say I do care a lot about those things, but I often lack the continuous attention that's needed to finalize the set of document that we need. If you're willing to take on this coordination and leadership effort (on comdev I guess) you have my big +1. -Bertrand
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Marvin, it doesn't need assigning. Just step up and do it. There may not be full consensus on the value of this, but I think there are enough people saying it has value to mean that it has some value. Note the overlapping mails from Jim. I think it makes a huge amount of sense to have budget to deliver the words on a page (as opposed to doing the hard work of building consensus on what needs to be said by those words). That being said if you can deliver without budget to support the effort that's all the better. Ross Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 12:59 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Tuesday, January 13, 2015, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: ...If the Board is willing to commission such a document, I will make it happen That would be fantastic, I think you'd do a great job in coordinating this effort. As you say I do care a lot about those things, but I often lack the continuous attention that's needed to finalize the set of document that we need. If you're willing to take on this coordination and leadership effort (on comdev I guess) you have my big +1. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: I would pour my heart and soul into such a role. I would give everything I have to coordinate the delivery of minimalist authoritative documentation worthy of Apache's traditions. It would be a huge contribution to open source software, lightening the load for hundreds of projects and thousands of developers. This point is absolutely huge. A well written minimalist policy could easily be forked by lots of non-Apache projects in much the way that the ASL itself is widely used. Improving the quality of Apache releases is great. Improving the quality of open source releases generally would be quite a bit greater.
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Roman Shaposhnik ro...@shaposhnik.org wrote: I think a better analogy would be US Culture. Yes it is as nebulous as it gets, but the fact that US Constitution exists as a written document makes a LOT of things WAY easier. Apache's constitution is the corporate bylaws: http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html US Culture is stuff like Starbucks, Elvis, Manifest Destiny, etc. Most of that is not coded as law, thankfully. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Niclas Hedhman nic...@hedhman.org wrote: More analogies; Just like Western Culture I think a better analogy would be US Culture. Yes it is as nebulous as it gets, but the fact that US Constitution exists as a written document makes a LOT of things WAY easier. Thanks, Roman. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Jan 10, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: On 01/09/2015 02:03 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: Another way to look at the Apache Way is as a musical composition. Sure, it was written for a specific arrangement, but sometimes it's played as a jazz piece, other-times as a classical, or maybe with a blues flavor. But it is always (or*should be*) recognizable. If you*don't* recognize it, then you've taken the interpretation too far, if you get my meaning. What a delightful analogy. Of course, you're always going to get people who say that a disco rendition is fine, and others who say it's blasphemous. From my perspective, that explanation of The Apache Way was fine, but completely unhelpful. Numerous people have provided numerous write-ups of the basic goals of the Apache Way. That didn't help (I guess). I attempted to provide the underlying rationale behind those goals of the Apache Way. Completely unhelpful. Considering that both detailed answers as well and more philosophical answers don't satisfy, I am at a loss to what approach to try next. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
So I link to a document and say it contains the list of immutable items, acknowledge it is merely a signpost, and request contributions. Your response that's not good enough, h Marvin you undertook to do the release requirements doc. You did huge amounts of work on it. All that is needed is to make it official. You do that back getting VP Legal to approve it. VP Legal might ask the board for input, but he doesn't need to. He has the authority to just approve it. There can be no dissenting voices, he is the deadlock breaker. If the membership don't like the decision they petition the board to remove him. If the board don't do so the membership calls a members meeting to replace the board. Like I said elsethread there is no hierarchy here unless a big stick is needed. But don't expect the one with the stick to wield it without there being an identified need. That would be overstepping the cultural objective of no leaders. I use your work only as an example. I'm not picking on you, I'm actually acknowledging your contribution to the intended process - thank you. Maybe someone will finalize the doc and ask VP Legal to approve it. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Marvin Humphreymailto:mar...@rectangular.com Sent: 1/10/2015 12:05 PM To: general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: On 01/09/2015 02:03 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: Another way to look at the Apache Way is as a musical composition. Sure, it was written for a specific arrangement, but sometimes it's played as a jazz piece, other-times as a classical, or maybe with a blues flavor. But it is always (or*should be*) recognizable. If you*don't* recognize it, then you've taken the interpretation too far, if you get my meaning. What a delightful analogy. Of course, you're always going to get people who say that a disco rendition is fine, and others who say it's blasphemous. From my perspective, that explanation of The Apache Way was fine, but completely unhelpful. Similarly, a signpost document collecting links is no more useful in establishing the boundaries of Apache's project requirements than countless other incomplete, unofficial resources. The willingness of a Board member or other authority to provide answers to specific questions is marginally helpful -- until contradictory answers are provided by a competing authority. Somewhere out there in the vast wasteland of Apache's websites and mailing list archives, there exist requirements that Apache projects *must* fulfill or face sanction by the Board. Theoretically there are not many absolute requirements, but learning all of them is literally impossible: there is no authoritative document setting limits on what Apache expects of its projects. Determining what you can get away with at Apache entails digging through huge scrap heaps of documentation and picking the brains of various unreliable oracles. It's maddeningly laborious and slow, and ultimately you can never have much confidence in the answers you unearth. I don't place much value on giving the Board so much flexibility. My sympathies lie with the poor slobs trying to figure out where Apache's rules begin and end -- and with those who build strong communities according to their own good faith interpretation of The Apache Way, only to face censure because their interpretation turned out to be wrong. Maintaining the Board's flexibility to pass judgment while denying those it oversees the rule of law is a poor tradeoff. It is incredibly inefficient, and it makes the Incubator's mission untenable. Even if the Board makes good calls every once in a while, the rest of us should not have to live in perpetual uncertainty. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
I feel this thread is about two different things. The Apache Way is not a matter of Current Policies, but the underlying culture that drives the policies forward. Compiling links to all policy documents into a http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies.html, would be dirt easy and solve that, if Google is too hard for you.. More analogies; Just like Western Culture is really hard to write down (probably a book in itself to just describe it), so is The Apache Way. Yet, all of you who live in the west, recognize for MOST PARTS whether a piece of activity is Western Culture or not. How do you do that without reading the documentation and authoritative sources?? Not only does the culture change over time, it is accepted by different individuals at different times, and there might be strong opinions about whether a particular thing is part of the culture or not. And I would argue that Culture is at its root Communications, whether that is two people talking, making a painting, food recipes being spread, religion or collective violence against some group (not all culture is positive). Same thing about The Apache Way, it is all about communications, how you communicate (board@ have been the biggest offender), where you communicate, what you communicate, the action taken from communications and so forth. Granted, there are many aspects then derived from that root, but even that originates as communication (what is called the vast wasteland of Apache's websites and mailing list archives). So, Marvin, if you are asking for a complete description of The Apache Way, you are really asking for someone to write a book about it. Maybe you should write it... ;-) If you are merely asking for Current Policies to be easily found, then that is quite doable... Cheers Niclas
Re: What is The Apache Way?
The temperature of this might be reduced by replacing, 'no one knows what the Apache Way is' with 'a lot of us have trouble translate it into practical decisions in a repeatable fashion.' Or not. As reported here, we have performed multiple experiments in which multiple members, directors, and others have derived conflicting _practical_ interpretations from 'the way.' People need to make practical decisions about releases, web sites, brands, and the like. People don't enjoy being told that they have 'trangresssed'. People particularly don't like this when their trangression was an action recommended by someone who is 'supposed to know,' and, in fact, thinks that she or he does know. So, either a lot of us are really stupid, or the Foundation as a whole has a gap between the general principles and their application. No, we can't have a rule book that details every particle of how to run an Apache project, but apparently we could have more concrete guidance. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Please tell me where the examples you give diverge or conflict? On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:20 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: And I think that someone who is an ASF member who claims that the Apache Way is completely unknown and nebulous and that there is no clear understanding of what the Apache Way is, well I think that's a big problem as well. We've seen Brane's version of The Apache Way. Here are some others: https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#philosophy While there is not an official list, these six principles have been cited as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation, which is normally referred to as The Apache Way: * collaborative software development * commercial-friendly standard license * consistently high quality software * respectful, honest, technical-based interaction * faithful implementation of standards * security as a mandatory feature http://communityovercode.com/2013/11/apache-governance-projects-first/ These include things like The Apache Way of: volunteer and collaborative led community built software projects; using the permissive Apache license; and having a consistent and stable brand, infrastructure services, and home for all Apache projects. http://www.slideshare.net/rgardler/the-apache-way-and-openofficeorg * Open Development vs. Open Source * Everyone is equal, everyone is a volunteer * All technical decisions about a project are public * She who has the best ideas leads * Until a better idea emerges http://theapacheway.com/ The Apache Way is sort of like Zen. It's something that's difficult to explain, has many interpretations, and the best way to learn it is to do it. The Incubator stands accused, on this list and others, of graduating pudlings who fail to understand the Apache Way. Like me, these podlings have an their own interpretation of the Apache Way. But we don't know, and can't know, every possible interpretation of The Apache Way. If the Board thinks that not knowing The Apache Way is a problem, give us a specific definition -- and then don't hold us accountable for knowledge of any other version. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Maybe it's about perception. Most organisations have a culture that has at least some degree of interpretation. If you want something clear cut and defined in such a way as to have no scope for interpretation you lose flexibility. Even the law gets interpretation. So perhaps its just a matter of understanding that individuals will have different perceptions of what clear expectations mean. Maybe not such a deep dysfunction as an inevitable one that is common to some degree in all orgs? On 9 January 2015 at 15:01, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: And fwiw, maybe the reason directors are chosen to represent members is because they *do* understand what the Apache Way is... Personally, I'm shocked, saddened and disappointed that this conversation is even happening, since it really clearly shows the depth of the dysfunction. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Ian Ofqual Accredited Qualifications https://theingots.org/community/index.php?q=qualifications Headline points in the 2014, 2015, 2016 school league tables Baseline testing and progress measures https://theingots.org/community/Baseline_testing_info The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, Unit 4D Gagarin, Lichfield Road Industrial Estate, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 7GN. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. +44 (0)1827 305940
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: And I think that someone who is an ASF member who claims that the Apache Way is completely unknown and nebulous and that there is no clear understanding of what the Apache Way is, well I think that's a big problem as well. We've seen Brane's version of The Apache Way. Here are some others: https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#philosophy While there is not an official list, these six principles have been cited as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation, which is normally referred to as The Apache Way: * collaborative software development * commercial-friendly standard license * consistently high quality software * respectful, honest, technical-based interaction * faithful implementation of standards * security as a mandatory feature http://communityovercode.com/2013/11/apache-governance-projects-first/ These include things like The Apache Way of: volunteer and collaborative led community built software projects; using the permissive Apache license; and having a consistent and stable brand, infrastructure services, and home for all Apache projects. http://www.slideshare.net/rgardler/the-apache-way-and-openofficeorg * Open Development vs. Open Source * Everyone is equal, everyone is a volunteer * All technical decisions about a project are public * She who has the best ideas leads * Until a better idea emerges http://theapacheway.com/ The Apache Way is sort of like Zen. It's something that's difficult to explain, has many interpretations, and the best way to learn it is to do it. The Incubator stands accused, on this list and others, of graduating pudlings who fail to understand the Apache Way. Like me, these podlings have an their own interpretation of the Apache Way. But we don't know, and can't know, every possible interpretation of The Apache Way. If the Board thinks that not knowing The Apache Way is a problem, give us a specific definition -- and then don't hold us accountable for knowledge of any other version. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Please tell me where the examples you give diverge or conflict? On Jan 9, 2015, at 10:20 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: And I think that someone who is an ASF member who claims that the Apache Way is completely unknown and nebulous and that there is no clear understanding of what the Apache Way is, well I think that's a big problem as well. We've seen Brane's version of The Apache Way. Here are some others: https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#philosophy While there is not an official list, these six principles have been cited as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation, which is normally referred to as The Apache Way: * collaborative software development * commercial-friendly standard license * consistently high quality software * respectful, honest, technical-based interaction * faithful implementation of standards * security as a mandatory feature http://communityovercode.com/2013/11/apache-governance-projects-first/ These include things like The Apache Way of: volunteer and collaborative led community built software projects; using the permissive Apache license; and having a consistent and stable brand, infrastructure services, and home for all Apache projects. http://www.slideshare.net/rgardler/the-apache-way-and-openofficeorg * Open Development vs. Open Source * Everyone is equal, everyone is a volunteer * All technical decisions about a project are public * She who has the best ideas leads * Until a better idea emerges http://theapacheway.com/ The Apache Way is sort of like Zen. It's something that's difficult to explain, has many interpretations, and the best way to learn it is to do it. The Incubator stands accused, on this list and others, of graduating pudlings who fail to understand the Apache Way. Like me, these podlings have an their own interpretation of the Apache Way. But we don't know, and can't know, every possible interpretation of The Apache Way. If the Board thinks that not knowing The Apache Way is a problem, give us a specific definition -- and then don't hold us accountable for knowledge of any other version. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
+1 Doug. -Original Message- From: Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Date: Friday, January 9, 2015 at 9:05 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: So, either a lot of us are really stupid, or the Foundation as a whole has a gap between the general principles and their application. No, we can't have a rule book that details every particle of how to run an Apache project, but apparently we could have more concrete guidance. The gap definitely exists. What often leads to confusion is when folks think there's no gap, that everything is clear-cut and certain, when it's not. Different Apache projects are permitted to operate differently, and the ill-defined line of what's acceptable moves over time. This is not entirely bad. Fixed practices are hard to change, but the open-source software world changes rapidly. So maintaining some flexibility is important. What we should try to do are document acceptable practices, those ways of operating that are common in many projects and have worked well. There may be multiple acceptable practices in a given area (e.g., CTR RTC). Projects that diverge from these might still be acceptable, but they might also run into problems and should proceed with caution. Some might tell them that they don't get the Apache Way, which is distressing, but, at the end of the day, so long as the board doesn't vote to evict them from the foundation, they're part of the Apache Way. The board doesn't generally act without good notice. Generally things escalate from folks griping, to the board agreeing to monitor and advise a project, to the board giving an ultimatum for a specific practice to stop, to the board finally taking some action. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 9:41 AM, David Nalley da...@gnsa.us wrote: Can a project use an external bug tracker? Can a project use a third-parties CI system? Can a project host their website outside of the ASF? Can a project avoid a users mailing list and move to StackOverflow? Can projects use github? It depends on the details. Many are not recommended practices. A project is likely to get more flak if it takes such paths rather than more standard paths, e.g., folks declaring that it's absolutely not allowed. Some of these may someday be recommended practices if projects persevere and show how they can be done without violating the spirit of Apache-style software development. The board may ask for more details when a project takes uncommon paths in order to gain comfort that Apache needs are met. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
+1, I'll repeat one a little my previous mail and say patches welcome (as long as they keep the document simple - remember, it's a signpost document not a discussion or detail document - the discussion/detail documents should be linked from this one). http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html this document starts with While not all aspects of the Apache Way are practiced the same way by all projects at the ASF, there are a number of rules and policies that Apache projects are required to follow – things like complying with PMC release voting, legal policy, brand policy, using mailing lists, etc., which are documented in various places. (note the second sentence has 5 links, the rest of the document has some explanatory text and copious links). Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: Doug Cutting [mailto:cutt...@apache.org] Sent: Friday, January 9, 2015 9:05 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: So, either a lot of us are really stupid, or the Foundation as a whole has a gap between the general principles and their application. No, we can't have a rule book that details every particle of how to run an Apache project, but apparently we could have more concrete guidance. The gap definitely exists. What often leads to confusion is when folks think there's no gap, that everything is clear-cut and certain, when it's not. Different Apache projects are permitted to operate differently, and the ill-defined line of what's acceptable moves over time. This is not entirely bad. Fixed practices are hard to change, but the open-source software world changes rapidly. So maintaining some flexibility is important. What we should try to do are document acceptable practices, those ways of operating that are common in many projects and have worked well. There may be multiple acceptable practices in a given area (e.g., CTR RTC). Projects that diverge from these might still be acceptable, but they might also run into problems and should proceed with caution. Some might tell them that they don't get the Apache Way, which is distressing, but, at the end of the day, so long as the board doesn't vote to evict them from the foundation, they're part of the Apache Way. The board doesn't generally act without good notice. Generally things escalate from folks griping, to the board agreeing to monitor and advise a project, to the board giving an ultimatum for a specific practice to stop, to the board finally taking some action. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: The temperature of this might be reduced by replacing, 'no one knows what the Apache Way is' with 'a lot of us have trouble translate it into practical decisions in a repeatable fashion.' Or not. As reported here, we have performed multiple experiments in which multiple members, directors, and others have derived conflicting _practical_ interpretations from 'the way.' People need to make practical decisions about releases, web sites, brands, and the like. People don't enjoy being told that they have 'trangresssed'. People particularly don't like this when their trangression was an action recommended by someone who is 'supposed to know,' and, in fact, thinks that she or he does know. So, either a lot of us are really stupid, or the Foundation as a whole has a gap between the general principles and their application. No, we can't have a rule book that details every particle of how to run an Apache project, but apparently we could have more concrete guidance. This! Specifically, in the context of the incubator projects coming into the incubator are likely told about the Apache Way, they likely agree with the big picture items, it's the practical application as they migrate their project that causes projects so much confusion; and I'd get away from even the term 'Apache Way' and ask this question in the context of the Incubator: 'What is required of an Apache Project'. Some examples of this: Can a project use an external bug tracker? Can a project use a third-parties CI system? Can a project host their website outside of the ASF? Can a project avoid a users mailing list and move to StackOverflow? Can projects use github? I've seen most (and maybe all) of these get different, conflicting answers from members, directors, and others when asked in the past year or so by projects coming into the incubator. As mentioned on another thread somewhere, one question is at what point does a project become 'in us, but not of us'? If all we are looking for is some reasonable intepretation of the six points here[1], it would seem that lots of the questions above are pointless. I realize that this is culturally known for members. It's ingrained, they don't even have to really think about it. But the outside world has no concept of most of this, or more importantly, it's practical application. --David [1]https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#philosophy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: So, either a lot of us are really stupid, or the Foundation as a whole has a gap between the general principles and their application. No, we can't have a rule book that details every particle of how to run an Apache project, but apparently we could have more concrete guidance. The gap definitely exists. What often leads to confusion is when folks think there's no gap, that everything is clear-cut and certain, when it's not. Different Apache projects are permitted to operate differently, and the ill-defined line of what's acceptable moves over time. This is not entirely bad. Fixed practices are hard to change, but the open-source software world changes rapidly. So maintaining some flexibility is important. What we should try to do are document acceptable practices, those ways of operating that are common in many projects and have worked well. There may be multiple acceptable practices in a given area (e.g., CTR RTC). Projects that diverge from these might still be acceptable, but they might also run into problems and should proceed with caution. Some might tell them that they don't get the Apache Way, which is distressing, but, at the end of the day, so long as the board doesn't vote to evict them from the foundation, they're part of the Apache Way. The board doesn't generally act without good notice. Generally things escalate from folks griping, to the board agreeing to monitor and advise a project, to the board giving an ultimatum for a specific practice to stop, to the board finally taking some action. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
As mention in a previous thread, all the particulars of what encompasses the Apache Way was learned from years of experience, based on learning what works and what doesn't, usually after some painful semi-disasters. They don't exist because we love process nor are they something a bunch of old-timers pulled out of our arses. Without going into a history lesson, look at what bootstrapped the ASF (well, we were the Apache Group then): an open source project, which many of us depended on, was dropped, and so the effort was picked up again by us to ensure that such a thing would never again happen to us, or anyone else. We wanted to ensure that no matter who came or went within that community, the project and the community survived. This was the start of our focus on community and rewarding individual merit. We wanted new blood to always feel welcome. And since most of us were doing this as volunteers, we wanted to make it easier for us, and others, who were doing this in our spare time, and as a combined work of passion and necessity. So what is it that volunteers lack? An over-abundance of free time to work on the code. So as volunteer cycles ebb and flow, we wanted to make it as easy as possible for people to help when then can and return when they can, hence the idea that merit doesn't expire. Hence the idea that all development must be done on mailing lists (so decisions are archived and asynchronous). Hence the need for voting and consensus and that vetoes can be cast at any time, and must be honored. Hence the several days before significant changes are made, Hence etc etc etc. And finally, we wanted it to be fun, and where we could enjoy hacking and stuff and be protected from legal action. So all those questions you ask are related to the Apache Way, but only in so far as how they help, or hinder, how the project abides by, and *fosters* that sense. And, of course, there are legal and IP provenance issues as well which must be abided by, which also factor into such things as where-they-code-is and what-is-a-release and where-are-releases-done,... Another way to look at the Apache Way is as a musical composition. Sure, it was written for a specific arrangement, but sometimes it's played as a jazz piece, other-times as a classical, or maybe with a blues flavor. But it is always (or *should be*) recognizable. If you *don't* recognize it, then you've taken the interpretation too far, if you get my meaning. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: On 01/09/2015 02:03 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: Another way to look at the Apache Way is as a musical composition. Sure, it was written for a specific arrangement, but sometimes it's played as a jazz piece, other-times as a classical, or maybe with a blues flavor. But it is always (or*should be*) recognizable. If you*don't* recognize it, then you've taken the interpretation too far, if you get my meaning. What a delightful analogy. Of course, you're always going to get people who say that a disco rendition is fine, and others who say it's blasphemous. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ouMaLRth-s blasphemous? Maybe. Recognizable? Yeah (fortunately or not) :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Sent from my iPhone On Jan 9, 2015, at 12:20 PM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: On Jan 9, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Rich Bowen rbo...@rcbowen.com wrote: On 01/09/2015 02:03 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: Another way to look at the Apache Way is as a musical composition. Sure, it was written for a specific arrangement, but sometimes it's played as a jazz piece, other-times as a classical, or maybe with a blues flavor. But it is always (or*should be*) recognizable. If you*don't* recognize it, then you've taken the interpretation too far, if you get my meaning. What a delightful analogy. Of course, you're always going to get people who say that a disco rendition is fine, and others who say it's blasphemous. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ouMaLRth-s blasphemous? Maybe. Recognizable? Yeah (fortunately or not) :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On 01/09/2015 02:03 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote: Another way to look at the Apache Way is as a musical composition. Sure, it was written for a specific arrangement, but sometimes it's played as a jazz piece, other-times as a classical, or maybe with a blues flavor. But it is always (or*should be*) recognizable. If you*don't* recognize it, then you've taken the interpretation too far, if you get my meaning. What a delightful analogy. Of course, you're always going to get people who say that a disco rendition is fine, and others who say it's blasphemous. -- Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
What is The Apache Way? No one can say. There is no bounded set of expectations that an Apache project must fulfill. Where do Apache's official policies begin and end? Which best practices must be mastered? What will be enforced, what will be ignored? Every last podling graduates without a clear understanding of The Apache Way, because it is impossible to attain a clear understanding of The Apache Way. Really? Are you serious? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:22 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: What is The Apache Way? No one can say. There is no bounded set of expectations that an Apache project must fulfill. Where do Apache's official policies begin and end? Which best practices must be mastered? What will be enforced, what will be ignored? Every last podling graduates without a clear understanding of The Apache Way, because it is impossible to attain a clear understanding of The Apache Way. Really? Are you serious? Absolutely. And if anyone who represents us on the Board doesn't think that a lack of clear expectations is a problem, I think that's a big problem. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Jan 9, 2015, at 9:51 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 5:22 AM, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: What is The Apache Way? No one can say. There is no bounded set of expectations that an Apache project must fulfill. Where do Apache's official policies begin and end? Which best practices must be mastered? What will be enforced, what will be ignored? Every last podling graduates without a clear understanding of The Apache Way, because it is impossible to attain a clear understanding of The Apache Way. Really? Are you serious? Absolutely. And if anyone who represents us on the Board doesn't think that a lack of clear expectations is a problem, I think that's a big problem. And I think that someone who is an ASF member who claims that the Apache Way is completely unknown and nebulous and that there is no clear understanding of what the Apache Way is, well I think that's a big problem as well. Even bigger. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
And fwiw, maybe the reason directors are chosen to represent members is because they *do* understand what the Apache Way is... Personally, I'm shocked, saddened and disappointed that this conversation is even happening, since it really clearly shows the depth of the dysfunction. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: WTF? There have been presentations about the apache way at every ApacheCon for about 15 years (twice in most years). I personally give 5-10 such presentations a year (sometimes public sometimes not). I'm sure many others here do the same. The Apache Way is really simple. There are very few immutable rules but anything that undermines those rules is not part of the Apache Way. The problem is not a lack of clarity its a lack of agreeing what does/does not undermine those few immutable. The way we get around that is to have a group of members who define it and take any action necessary to ensure the Apache Way is protected. Those members can become IPMC members and help incoming projects learn the immutable rules and how to evaluate whether an action will undermine those rules. There is a process for building consensus around what is and is not acceptable. There is an escalation process if consensus cannot be reached. In the IPMC it goes... PPMC - Mentors - IPMC - Board - Members In TLPs it is similar: Community - Committers - PMC - Board - Members Nobody expects the PPMC to understand. Everyone expects Members to understand, which means everyone expects Mentors to understand (see how it is designed to be flat?) You can become a member without ever living through a commit veto, or a nasty argument about corporate (over)involvement, or any number of other critical test cases of whether a community is, in fact, successfully putting the principles into practice. This wouldn't worry me so much except that I fear that (rarely) some members who have become mentors don't even recognize when something is happening which calls for them to call for backup. This is not a top down organization where rules govern what we can do. It is not the boards job to define policy, that's the members job (and the IPMC is mostly members). The board are the end of the escalation chain, they break deadlocks only (and approve policies defined by the membership). In my experience, there are some people who consistently act as if there is some sort of top-down flow of rules. (In fact, in some cases, I would even count myself as one of them.) The usual source of floods of email on this subject is not the community principles of governance, but rather the legal details of releases. Some people 'round here think that's it is very important that the contents of NOTICE files are completely correct. Some podlings have achieved extreme frustration in this area, especially when some of those people disagree about what constitutes 'correct'. So, when Martin writes what he writes, I'm reasonably sure that what he's looking for is not a rule book of how to run a consensus community, but rather clear, complete, and non-contradictory documentation of how to produce a proper release. I have always had a sense that, at the VP Legal level, there is a sensible application of the legal principle of _de minimus_ -- that, in fact, little problems with this stuff are just not material. But, if I am right about that, I feel pretty clear that this does not get communicated downwards. Here's where I come in as a legalist: at the end of the day, a PMC is a legal formalism. The board delegates certain legal authority (notable, to make releases) to the PMC, and appoints the chair. The IPMC thus is a complex device: on the one hand, it is the legally constituted PMC with responsibility for the releases of podlings. On the other hand, it has spent the last few years trying to find ways to push authority downwards into the podlings. The pTLP business asks, 'well, is there a way to just simplify this by letting each new project just be a PMC?' My writeup asks, 'OK, if you want that, what _might_ it look like?'
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On 08.01.2015 05:30, Marvin Humphrey wrote: On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Some podlings are graduating w/ no clear understanding of the Apache Way. What is The Apache Way? No one can say. There is no bounded set of expectations that an Apache project must fulfill. Where do Apache's official policies begin and end? Which best practices must be mastered? What will be enforced, what will be ignored? Every last podling graduates without a clear understanding of The Apache Way, because it is impossible to attain a clear understanding of The Apache Way. Dunno, I think the basics are pretty clear. * Contributors are individual volunteers (never representatives of employers). * Status is gained through merit (e.g., not through connections or tit-for-tat). * Decisions should be reached by consensus. * All project members are equal (e.g., PMC does not dictate to other committers) * Community is more important than code. Everything else (including requirements for releases) are minor technicalities and/or legal constraints. I find it horrifying that any ASF and especially IPMC member couldn't list these five basic points standing on their heads in a cold shower at 3 a.m. -- Brane - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
WTF? There have been presentations about the apache way at every ApacheCon for about 15 years (twice in most years). I personally give 5-10 such presentations a year (sometimes public sometimes not). I'm sure many others here do the same. The Apache Way is really simple. There are very few immutable rules but anything that undermines those rules is not part of the Apache Way. The problem is not a lack of clarity its a lack of agreeing what does/does not undermine those few immutable. The way we get around that is to have a group of members who define it and take any action necessary to ensure the Apache Way is protected. Those members can become IPMC members and help incoming projects learn the immutable rules and how to evaluate whether an action will undermine those rules. There is a process for building consensus around what is and is not acceptable. There is an escalation process if consensus cannot be reached. In the IPMC it goes... PPMC - Mentors - IPMC - Board - Members In TLPs it is similar: Community - Committers - PMC - Board - Members Nobody expects the PPMC to understand. Everyone expects Members to understand, which means everyone expects Mentors to understand (see how it is designed to be flat?) This is not a top down organization where rules govern what we can do. It is not the boards job to define policy, that's the members job (and the IPMC is mostly members). The board are the end of the escalation chain, they break deadlocks only (and approve policies defined by the membership). Members should look to the board to enforce policy, not define it (Though Directors are members and will be involved with the definition) The Apache Way assumes that the best people to make decisions are the ones on the ground. We assume that nobody understands everything about a project and its community and we assume that people will not interfere where they don't have the expertise to do so. In the IPMC this means mentors will more often come to the IPMC for guidance, this is to be expected. The IPMC has committees to turn to for guidance (legal, marketing, brand, comdev etc.). In the majority if cases this works very well here in the IPMC. In some cases it does not. It is only the some cases we need be concerned about. Those cases are usually either projects with inadequate mentoring or bad mentoring. I don't want to accuse anyone if bad mentoring without evidence, so lets assume it is in attentiveness. Ross Sent from my Windows Phone From: Marvin Humphreymailto:mar...@rectangular.com Sent: 1/7/2015 8:32 PM To: general@incubator.apache.orgmailto:general@incubator.apache.org Subject: What is The Apache Way? On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Some podlings are graduating w/ no clear understanding of the Apache Way. What is The Apache Way? No one can say. There is no bounded set of expectations that an Apache project must fulfill. Where do Apache's official policies begin and end? Which best practices must be mastered? What will be enforced, what will be ignored? Every last podling graduates without a clear understanding of The Apache Way, because it is impossible to attain a clear understanding of The Apache Way. We can't fix that by restructuring the Incubator. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
To be clear my email was not targeted at Marvin. We all know how hard Marvin has worked to create the clear policy documents I talk about here. I hope Marvin knows me well enough to recognize my debating style. This is not about *him* it's about the impression of the top down rules you describe below - as you seem to be implying that should not exist in the Apache Way apart from a few immutable areas and I agree. Ross Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 9:25 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: WTF? There have been presentations about the apache way at every ApacheCon for about 15 years (twice in most years). I personally give 5-10 such presentations a year (sometimes public sometimes not). I'm sure many others here do the same. The Apache Way is really simple. There are very few immutable rules but anything that undermines those rules is not part of the Apache Way. The problem is not a lack of clarity its a lack of agreeing what does/does not undermine those few immutable. The way we get around that is to have a group of members who define it and take any action necessary to ensure the Apache Way is protected. Those members can become IPMC members and help incoming projects learn the immutable rules and how to evaluate whether an action will undermine those rules. There is a process for building consensus around what is and is not acceptable. There is an escalation process if consensus cannot be reached. In the IPMC it goes... PPMC - Mentors - IPMC - Board - Members In TLPs it is similar: Community - Committers - PMC - Board - Members Nobody expects the PPMC to understand. Everyone expects Members to understand, which means everyone expects Mentors to understand (see how it is designed to be flat?) You can become a member without ever living through a commit veto, or a nasty argument about corporate (over)involvement, or any number of other critical test cases of whether a community is, in fact, successfully putting the principles into practice. This wouldn't worry me so much except that I fear that (rarely) some members who have become mentors don't even recognize when something is happening which calls for them to call for backup. This is not a top down organization where rules govern what we can do. It is not the boards job to define policy, that's the members job (and the IPMC is mostly members). The board are the end of the escalation chain, they break deadlocks only (and approve policies defined by the membership). In my experience, there are some people who consistently act as if there is some sort of top-down flow of rules. (In fact, in some cases, I would even count myself as one of them.) The usual source of floods of email on this subject is not the community principles of governance, but rather the legal details of releases. Some people 'round here think that's it is very important that the contents of NOTICE files are completely correct. Some podlings have achieved extreme frustration in this area, especially when some of those people disagree about what constitutes 'correct'. So, when Martin writes what he writes, I'm reasonably sure that what he's looking for is not a rule book of how to run a consensus community, but rather clear, complete, and non-contradictory documentation of how to produce a proper release. I have always had a sense that, at the VP Legal level, there is a sensible application of the legal principle of _de minimus_ -- that, in fact, little problems with this stuff are just not material. But, if I am right about that, I feel pretty clear that this does not get communicated downwards. Here's where I come in as a legalist: at the end of the day, a PMC is a legal formalism. The board delegates certain legal authority (notable, to make releases) to the PMC, and appoints the chair. The IPMC thus is a complex device: on the one hand, it is the legally constituted PMC with responsibility for the releases of podlings. On the other hand, it has spent the last few years trying to find ways to push authority downwards into the podlings. The pTLP business asks, 'well, is there a way to just simplify this by letting each new project just be a PMC?' My writeup asks, 'OK, if you want that, what _might_ it look like?' - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: To be clear my email was not targeted at Marvin. We all know how hard Marvin has worked to create the clear policy documents I talk about here. I hope Marvin knows me well enough to recognize my debating style. This is not about *him* it's about the impression of the top down rules you describe below - as you seem to be implying that should not exist in the Apache Way apart from a few immutable areas and I agree. Last for me for today: I recognize both of your debating styles, and my reference to Marvin was a combination of my personal tendency to conflict-aversion and an attempt, indeed, to distinguish between the narrow area where there can or should be rules, and the broader area where we are all discussing cultural diffusion without the use of initiation ceremonies. I particularly want to highlight my view that the most important thing is to know when you need help, and the other most important thing is for there to be help available.
Re: What is The Apache Way?
On 1/8/15, 10:49 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: top down rules you describe below - as you seem to be implying that should not exist in the Apache Way apart from a few immutable areas and I agree. But what are the few immutable areas? Why isn’t there a link to a page that lists them instead of whole presentations to try to watch? I assume you don’t just mean “only source in official release”, “-1 vetoes a commit”, “3 +1 binding votes on releases”. -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 9:25 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? I'm reasonably sure that what he's looking for is not a rule book of how to run a consensus community IMO, Apache Flex spent a great deal of energy trying to reach consensus because we were told that “voting is a sign of failure”. Only recently did we find out (by having a former mentor return to help out) that consensus might only mean “general consensus” and not “consensus approval” as defined in the Apache Glossary. Some communities are blessed with people who get along well, but sometimes you can’t get everyone to agree and then you do have to know when it is time to vote and move on or not. Marvin may not need a rule book (or guide book) on consensus communities, but Flex sure could have used one. -Alex
Re: What is The Apache Way?
Members should look to the board to enforce policy, not define it (Though Directors are members and will be involved with the definition) This disagrees with much that the Foundation has published. In example: The membership of the ASF elects the 9 member board to run the foundation and to set and ensure policy. From: http://apache.org/foundation/ And whether I agree or disagree with your statement, this perfectly illustrates Marvin's point. Conflicting statements, that podlings see on websites, and then here from mentors, IPMC members, or even officers and directors make this incredibly convoluted for people who don't 'understand' the Apache Way, and more importantly, it's effect on a project community. And this happens all of the time. I recently was involved in an email conversation with a project that's considering coming to the Incubator. Involved in the conversation were 4 members, 3 of whom are officers, 1 of whom is a director, and we provided conflicting advice as to what was 'required' of a project at the ASF on specific points like bug trackers, mailing lists, etc. The reaction by folks from that project seemed to be one of wonder, curious which one of us was right?, Worried about the seeming inconsistency. I think that most of the projects that come into the Incubator, want to do the 'right thing'; we make that much more difficult by having such a variable answer to 'the right thing'. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Years ago I started creating a signpost site over on http://community.apache.org which was intended provide a simplified gateway to our copious documents that describe the Apache Way in all its glory. Since then a few people have contributed to it. Our goal is to keep it simple, leave the details elsewhere but have the headlines on that site. We've been mostly successful in this. Unfortunately it is probably one of our best kept secrets. On this site you will find things like: http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html this document starts with While not all aspects of the Apache Way are practiced the same way by all projects at the ASF, there are a number of rules and policies that Apache projects are required to follow – things like complying with PMC release voting, legal policy, brand policy, using mailing lists, etc., which are documented in various places. (note the second sentence has 5 links, the rest of the document has some explanatory text and copious links). •Open Innovation in The Apache Software Foundation •Writing and Distributing Software The Apache Way •The Apache Software Foundation: No Jerks Allowed! •Putting It Together •An Overview of The Apache Software Foundation •Community Development at the ASF •The Apache Way and OpenOffice.org •Communities and Collaboration •Open Source Collaboration Tools are good for you •Life in Open Source Communities •Open Source enables Open Innovation •About: Apache - The Foundation, The Way, The Projects •Managing Community Open Source Brands There is *loads* of stuff over there. Ross -Original Message- From: Alex Harui [mailto:aha...@adobe.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 11:19 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On 1/8/15, 10:49 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: top down rules you describe below - as you seem to be implying that should not exist in the Apache Way apart from a few immutable areas and I agree. But what are the few immutable areas? Why isn’t there a link to a page that lists them instead of whole presentations to try to watch? I assume you don’t just mean “only source in official release”, “-1 vetoes a commit”, “3 +1 binding votes on releases”. -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 9:25 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? I'm reasonably sure that what he's looking for is not a rule book of how to run a consensus community IMO, Apache Flex spent a great deal of energy trying to reach consensus because we were told that “voting is a sign of failure”. Only recently did we find out (by having a former mentor return to help out) that consensus might only mean “general consensus” and not “consensus approval” as defined in the Apache Glossary. Some communities are blessed with people who get along well, but sometimes you can’t get everyone to agree and then you do have to know when it is time to vote and move on or not. Marvin may not need a rule book (or guide book) on consensus communities, but Flex sure could have used one. -Alex B CB [ X ܚX KK[XZ[ [ \ [ ][ X ܚX P[ X ]܋ \X K ܙ B ܈Y][ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[ [ \ [ Z[ [ X ]܋ \X K ܙ B
RE: What is The Apache Way?
It's process vs. culture. We shouldn't get hung up on process. Our bylaws (as a foundation) dictate that the board set the formal policies. This is pretty much a requirement of the way we have to be structured to get 501c(3) status. Someone needs to be accountable. So, yes, the board votes on policy and enforces it. However, the policies that are voted on are defined by the community as a whole. It is the boards job to find the appropriate policy that best matches the needs of the community. In most cases the board delegate this responsibility to some other committee. Where it is an operational concern it is delegated to a presidents committee, where it is a community concern to a board committee. Those committees invite the broader community to contribute to the discussion and make recommendations to the board which eventually become policy which is formally set and ensured by the board. The board are empowered and expected to ensure policies fit within the boundaries of our 501c(3) status and the foundations sustainability. They are also required to ensure that a policy that some sub-set of the foundation community requests is not in conflict with what another sub-set needs. So sometimes the board says no to a policy change, however, if the membership feel that the board is in error they are empowered to get rid of them. That being said, I do not disagree with you about conflicting opinions. That is an unfortunate side effect of looking to the those at the cliff face to make decisions. Everyone is looking at a different part of that cliff face and see different ways to climb. As Benson observes it is hard for us, as individuals, to know when we need to seek guidance. The foundation does provide mechanisms for getting a canonical answer - ask the relevant VP, if they are unsure they will consult the board. If the board are unsure they will consult the membership. Ross -Original Message- From: David Nalley [mailto:da...@gnsa.us] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 11:45 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? Members should look to the board to enforce policy, not define it (Though Directors are members and will be involved with the definition) This disagrees with much that the Foundation has published. In example: The membership of the ASF elects the 9 member board to run the foundation and to set and ensure policy. From: http://apache.org/foundation/ And whether I agree or disagree with your statement, this perfectly illustrates Marvin's point. Conflicting statements, that podlings see on websites, and then here from mentors, IPMC members, or even officers and directors make this incredibly convoluted for people who don't 'understand' the Apache Way, and more importantly, it's effect on a project community. And this happens all of the time. I recently was involved in an email conversation with a project that's considering coming to the Incubator. Involved in the conversation were 4 members, 3 of whom are officers, 1 of whom is a director, and we provided conflicting advice as to what was 'required' of a project at the ASF on specific points like bug trackers, mailing lists, etc. The reaction by folks from that project seemed to be one of wonder, curious which one of us was right?, Worried about the seeming inconsistency. I think that most of the projects that come into the Incubator, want to do the 'right thing'; we make that much more difficult by having such a variable answer to 'the right thing'. --David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: What is The Apache Way?
Sorry I seem to have deleted a para from the below when editing for send. The para was also on this site you will find http://community.apache.org/speakers/slides.html which has decks from different people with titles like): •Open Innovation in The Apache Software Foundation •Writing and Distributing Software The Apache Way •The Apache Software Foundation: No Jerks Allowed! •Putting It Together •An Overview of The Apache Software Foundation •Community Development at the ASF •The Apache Way and OpenOffice.org •Communities and Collaboration •Open Source Collaboration Tools are good for you •Life in Open Source Communities •Open Source enables Open Innovation •About: Apache - The Foundation, The Way, The Projects •Managing Community Open Source Brands Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 11:55 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: RE: What is The Apache Way? Years ago I started creating a signpost site over on http://community.apache.org which was intended provide a simplified gateway to our copious documents that describe the Apache Way in all its glory. Since then a few people have contributed to it. Our goal is to keep it simple, leave the details elsewhere but have the headlines on that site. We've been mostly successful in this. Unfortunately it is probably one of our best kept secrets. On this site you will find things like: http://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html this document starts with While not all aspects of the Apache Way are practiced the same way by all projects at the ASF, there are a number of rules and policies that Apache projects are required to follow – things like complying with PMC release voting, legal policy, brand policy, using mailing lists, etc., which are documented in various places. (note the second sentence has 5 links, the rest of the document has some explanatory text and copious links). •Open Innovation in The Apache Software Foundation •Writing and Distributing Software The Apache Way •The Apache Software Foundation: No Jerks Allowed! •Putting It Together •An Overview of The Apache Software Foundation •Community Development at the ASF •The Apache Way and OpenOffice.org •Communities and Collaboration •Open Source Collaboration Tools are good for you •Life in Open Source Communities •Open Source enables Open Innovation •About: Apache - The Foundation, The Way, The Projects •Managing Community Open Source Brands There is *loads* of stuff over there. Ross -Original Message- From: Alex Harui [mailto:aha...@adobe.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 11:19 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? On 1/8/15, 10:49 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) ross.gard...@microsoft.com wrote: top down rules you describe below - as you seem to be implying that should not exist in the Apache Way apart from a few immutable areas and I agree. But what are the few immutable areas? Why isn’t there a link to a page that lists them instead of whole presentations to try to watch? I assume you don’t just mean “only source in official release”, “-1 vetoes a commit”, “3 +1 binding votes on releases”. -Original Message- From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 8, 2015 9:25 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What is The Apache Way? I'm reasonably sure that what he's looking for is not a rule book of how to run a consensus community IMO, Apache Flex spent a great deal of energy trying to reach consensus because we were told that “voting is a sign of failure”. Only recently did we find out (by having a former mentor return to help out) that consensus might only mean “general consensus” and not “consensus approval” as defined in the Apache Glossary. Some communities are blessed with people who get along well, but sometimes you can’t get everyone to agree and then you do have to know when it is time to vote and move on or not. Marvin may not need a rule book (or guide book) on consensus communities, but Flex sure could have used one. -Alex B CB [ X ܚX KK[XZ[ [ \ [ ][ X ܚX P[ X ]܋ \X K ܙ B ܈Y][ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[ [ \ [ Z[ [ X ]܋ \X K ܙ B B CB [ X ܚX KK[XZ[ [ \ [ ][ X ܚX P[ X ]܋ \X K ܙ B ܈Y][ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[ [ \ [ Z[ [ X ]܋ \X K ܙ B - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
What is The Apache Way?
On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Alan D. Cabrera l...@toolazydogs.com wrote: Some podlings are graduating w/ no clear understanding of the Apache Way. What is The Apache Way? No one can say. There is no bounded set of expectations that an Apache project must fulfill. Where do Apache's official policies begin and end? Which best practices must be mastered? What will be enforced, what will be ignored? Every last podling graduates without a clear understanding of The Apache Way, because it is impossible to attain a clear understanding of The Apache Way. We can't fix that by restructuring the Incubator. Marvin Humphrey - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
