RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Noel, But I don't think that we need a separate TLP for it. I would leave the project in the community that last hosted the now dormant project. Good point, perhaps we just need to organise ourselves. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
Geir wrote: Well, I'm a little leery about sending watchdog traffic (even if none) to general@ - all it takes is one guy getting interested :) (My silence was due to temporary no-email-at-home, not indifference!) I'd prefer to propose the following: 1/ that a PMC vote is taken *HERE* to decide if the community is happy to see Watchdog downgraded to inactive 2/ If we get the expected Yes then we note the status on the website (watchdog and jakarta-site) 3/ we then replace the dev list with an autoresponder to the effect that this project is not under active development and the place for discussion is the user list. 4/ Yoav and I subscribe to and monitor the users list, on behalf of the PMC 5/ if people turn up and look keen to re-activate the development we reactivate the dev list and start voting for new commiters *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Noel wrote: We leave the resources in place, with a notice that the project is dormant. If it is revitalized, great. If not, what harm is there? To me it seems like an opportunity for part of jakarta to fall out of PMC oversight. I'm not suggesting that there is any legal controversy looming, but suppose there were, are we really confident that we would be aware of it? To remedy that all we really need is to ensure that there are eyes on it, and that if they go they ensure that someone else picks it up. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
I don't think that working, used-by-users code is 'dead'. There may not be an active community of developers, but if the code is done, it's done. I agree. I think we should consider it as the caretakeing of the user community of a stable product, and if it ever arises, the sponsors of a new developers community. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Jun 7, 2004, at 5:05 AM, Danny Angus wrote: Geir wrote: Well, I'm a little leery about sending watchdog traffic (even if none) to general@ - all it takes is one guy getting interested :) (My silence was due to temporary no-email-at-home, not indifference!) I'd prefer to propose the following: 1/ that a PMC vote is taken *HERE* to decide if the community is happy to see Watchdog downgraded to inactive That's fine, although I see no need to 'downgrade'. I think that the PMC is aware, and Yoav and yourself have karma now. As for the rest, do what you think is best. You've got Karma. If someone doesn't like, they'll squawk. :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
On May 26, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, I just tried to subscribe to the watchdog mailing list in order to notify the developers of a bug I submitted against Watchdog. But I got a no such mailbox: [EMAIL PROTECTED] error response from the mail server. What's the status of Watchdog? I just added Yoav and Danny to the committer list for watchdog. You guys decide on what you want to do with the mail list. I think just getting the -dev and -user going again for watchdog would be a clean, unconfusing way to do it, but it's for you decide. I don't think that working, used-by-users code is 'dead'. There may not be an active community of developers, but if the code is done, it's done. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the Graveyard. Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject. Tim -Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 2:12 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? Yoav, no such mailbox: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know the answer to the project status, but I can confirm that there is no such mailing list currently existent. I don't know when it disappeared, other than the fact that it stopped archiving back in Nov 2002, but entire mailing lists structures don't disappear by accident. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Hi, Well, Watchdog might be dead as far as development, but we still use it to test tomcat as part of the tomcat release process. So let me discuss with fellow tomcat developers, and please don't start a process for burying watchdog yet. Thanks, Yoav Shapira Millennium Research Informatics -Original Message- From: Tim O'Brien [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:21 AM To: 'Jakarta General List' Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the Graveyard. Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject. Tim -Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 2:12 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? Yoav, no such mailbox: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know the answer to the project status, but I can confirm that there is no such mailing list currently existent. I don't know when it disappeared, other than the fact that it stopped archiving back in Nov 2002, but entire mailing lists structures don't disappear by accident. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the Graveyard. Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject. First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with dormant projects. Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project. Ever. I didn't really agree with closing java.apache.org. Although I do agree with closing that domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to Jakarta. In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources left in place, and can have their mailing addresses reflected to a communal list, such as [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or community@, although I a separate address might be better). It isn't as if a dormant project rots and deteriorates. It isn't costing anything unless there is activity. If there are users who want to be active, eventually people are going to have to step up and become stewards. If a dormant project is revived by a new group, great. If not, it just sits fallow. Burying a project makes it far less likely that users will be able to organize around it. I would certainly indicate that a project is currently dormant, if only to let potential users know that there isn't the kind of active community that they should expect from an ASF project. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote: If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the Graveyard. Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject. First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with dormant projects. Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project. Ever. I Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in the incubator and 'fail', or in commons-sandbox. able to organize around it. I would certainly indicate that a project is currently dormant, if only to let potential users know that there isn't the kind of active community that they should expect from an ASF project. +1. Some mark of activity that a user should expect from a project would be good on the site. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with dormant projects. It's the opposite. Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project. Ever. I didn't really agree with closing java.apache.org. Although I do agree with closing that domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to Jakarta. In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources left in place, and can have their mailing addresses reflected to a communal list, such as [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or community@, although I a separate address might be better). I think you're right, remember that we do need to have someone somewhere answerable to the board and with oversight over any project which has public resources, whether it is active, maintenance only or unsupported end-of-life. To that end a dis-incubator seemed like a good idea around the time the apache incubator was formed. It would have a lot less to do, probably little more than list moderation, but it would give people the comfort feel that someone somewhere would be alerted to potential issues with projects which no longer have or need a community. If enough interest is shown in a retired project it can be re-vitalised by a visit to the incubator.. FWIW I would be happy to volunteer my time for this. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Hi, I agree with one Noel, Henri, and Danny have said. For interest's sake, let me explain what's been happening with Watchdog, as I think it's a useful example for other graveyard or end-of-life scenarios. We use Watchdog as part of the tomcat release process. When Ant 1.6 was released and the launcher class split from ant.jar into ant-launcher.jar, the watchdog run in ant 1.6 was broken. It works fine in Ant 1.5 and earlier, but we want to use Ant 1.6 to build tomcat. So the workaround now is a manual process whereby the person building tomcat has to copy ant-launcher.jar into the lib directory of watchdog. A tiny change to the Watchdog build.xml would fix this, and I've submitted a Bugzilla enhancement request with the patch. But there's no one to act on my request, leaving us in a situation where we either use an older ant or do the manual copy (or hack the tomcat build file in an ugly way to accommodate watchdog's build problems). Yoav Shapira Millennium Research Informatics -Original Message- From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 12:01 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with dormant projects. It's the opposite. Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project. Ever. I didn't really agree with closing java.apache.org. Although I do agree with closing that domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to Jakarta. In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources left in place, and can have their mailing addresses reflected to a communal list, such as [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or community@, although I a separate address might be better). I think you're right, remember that we do need to have someone somewhere answerable to the board and with oversight over any project which has public resources, whether it is active, maintenance only or unsupported end-of-life. To that end a dis-incubator seemed like a good idea around the time the apache incubator was formed. It would have a lot less to do, probably little more than list moderation, but it would give people the comfort feel that someone somewhere would be alerted to potential issues with projects which no longer have or need a community. If enough interest is shown in a retired project it can be re-vitalised by a visit to the incubator.. FWIW I would be happy to volunteer my time for this. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limi! ted. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. *** *** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Henri Yandell wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project. Ever. Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in the incubator and 'fail', or in commons-sandbox. Depends upon what happens in the Incubator. If it does actually fail, then I would probably concur that in most cases we should remove the code from public view. The project would be free to resurface elsewhere. But even if a sandbox project is just an experiment, as long as it was properly developed within the ASF (as opposed to something that improperly bypassed the Incubator), I'd probably leave it fallow, and mark it as dormant. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Yoav Shapira wrote: For interest's sake, let me explain what's been happening with Watchdog, as I think it's a useful example for other graveyard or end-of-life scenarios. We use Watchdog as part of the tomcat release process. A tiny change to the Watchdog build.xml would fix [a problem], and I've submitted a Bugzilla enhancement request with the patch. But there's no one to act on my request The idea of partitioning permissions within a TLP, as is extensively the case within Jakarta, is broken. A TLP is supposed to be a single cohesive community. Ideally, the PMC consists of all active committers. Were there a TLP for Tomcat and related tools, I suspect that Watchdog would be in that TLP, even if Watchdog is also useable by other containers, and you would have the necessary access rights. Even in the current circumstance, it seems to be that the Tomcat community might want to take responsibility for Watchdog. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Jun 4, 2004, at 1:14 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Yoav Shapira wrote: For interest's sake, let me explain what's been happening with Watchdog, as I think it's a useful example for other graveyard or end-of-life scenarios. We use Watchdog as part of the tomcat release process. A tiny change to the Watchdog build.xml would fix [a problem], and I've submitted a Bugzilla enhancement request with the patch. But there's no one to act on my request The idea of partitioning permissions within a TLP, as is extensively the case within Jakarta, is broken. A TLP is supposed to be a single cohesive community. Ideally, the PMC consists of all active committers. Were there a TLP for Tomcat and related tools, I suspect that Watchdog would be in that TLP, even if Watchdog is also useable by other containers, and you would have the necessary access rights. Even in the current circumstance, it seems to be that the Tomcat community might want to take responsibility for Watchdog. Well, I disagree that the idea is broken, but we can leave that for another thread. Having Tomcat community take care of watchdog would be great, and it doesn't imply any major work like moving the code or site. Just paying attention to the lists and putting a notice on the Watchdog site to the effect of dormancy would be an excellent start. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
we do need to have someone somewhere answerable to the board and with oversight over any project which has public resources, whether it is active, maintenance only or unsupported end-of-life. Yes. But I don't think that we need a separate TLP for it. I would leave the project in the community that last hosted the now dormant project. If enough interest is shown in a retired project it can be re-vitalised by a visit to the incubator. If there is enough interest, it can be revived. There is no need for it to go to the Incubator at all. FWIW I would be happy to volunteer my time for this. Cool. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Hi, OK, then let me propose this: - We give Danny Angus and myself karma for Watchdog. There are no active committers to nominate us. - Either one of us will place a notice of dormancy (text TBD) on the front page for Watchdog - I will fix the build script so that Tomcat builds can be automated in this regards We still need to take care of the mailing lists. I see two options: - We revive the watchdog-dev/watchdog-user mailing lists and redirect them somewhere like [EMAIL PROTECTED], or - We just leave them dead, take off the subscription links on the Watchdog site, and indicate in our notice of dormancy that questions about watchdog should be submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Tomcat TLP is a future possibility, and we may wish to consider the Watchdog status at that time, but that's not the question at this time, and we all have enough to do as it is ;) Yoav Shapira Millennium Research Informatics -Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 1:27 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? we do need to have someone somewhere answerable to the board and with oversight over any project which has public resources, whether it is active, maintenance only or unsupported end-of-life. Yes. But I don't think that we need a separate TLP for it. I would leave the project in the community that last hosted the now dormant project. If enough interest is shown in a retired project it can be re-vitalised by a visit to the incubator. If there is enough interest, it can be revived. There is no need for it to go to the Incubator at all. FWIW I would be happy to volunteer my time for this. Cool. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Jun 4, 2004, at 1:31 PM, Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, OK, then let me propose this: - We give Danny Angus and myself karma for Watchdog. There are no active committers to nominate us. +1 - Either one of us will place a notice of dormancy (text TBD) on the front page for Watchdog +1 - I will fix the build script so that Tomcat builds can be automated in this regards I don't know what this means, but if you're happy, I'm happy. We still need to take care of the mailing lists. I see two options: - We revive the watchdog-dev/watchdog-user mailing lists and redirect them somewhere like [EMAIL PROTECTED], or - We just leave them dead, take off the subscription links on the Watchdog site, and indicate in our notice of dormancy that questions about watchdog should be submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why not just monitor them? geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Hi, We still need to take care of the mailing lists. I see two options: - We revive the watchdog-dev/watchdog-user mailing lists and redirect them somewhere like [EMAIL PROTECTED], or - We just leave them dead, take off the subscription links on the Watchdog site, and indicate in our notice of dormancy that questions about watchdog should be submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why not just monitor them? There's nothing to monitor: the lists are dead. Emails to watchdog-dev-subscribe/unsubscribe come back with an address not found type error. And yet those are the addresses linked on the watchdog site. So we actually have broken and misleading information there ;) Yoav This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Jun 4, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, We still need to take care of the mailing lists. I see two options: - We revive the watchdog-dev/watchdog-user mailing lists and redirect them somewhere like [EMAIL PROTECTED], or - We just leave them dead, take off the subscription links on the Watchdog site, and indicate in our notice of dormancy that questions about watchdog should be submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why not just monitor them? There's nothing to monitor: the lists are dead. Emails to watchdog-dev-subscribe/unsubscribe come back with an address not found type error. And yet those are the addresses linked on the watchdog site. So we actually have broken and misleading information there ;) (!) So why don't we just fix them? -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Hi, There's nothing to monitor: the lists are dead. Emails to watchdog-dev-subscribe/unsubscribe come back with an address not found type error. And yet those are the addresses linked on the watchdog site. So we actually have broken and misleading information there ;) (!) So why don't we just fix them? The lists were not removed accidentally, so I assume the developers at that time had some rationale. Beyond that, I'm assuming the activity level on these lists would be so low that redirecting them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] is fine. If my assumption is proven wrong we can recreate/revive the lists and update the watchdog web site accordingly. Yoav This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Jun 4, 2004, at 1:54 PM, Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, There's nothing to monitor: the lists are dead. Emails to watchdog-dev-subscribe/unsubscribe come back with an address not found type error. And yet those are the addresses linked on the watchdog site. So we actually have broken and misleading information there ;) (!) So why don't we just fix them? The lists were not removed accidentally, so I assume the developers at that time had some rationale. Beyond that, I'm assuming the activity level on these lists would be so low that redirecting them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] is fine. If my assumption is proven wrong we can recreate/revive the lists and update the watchdog web site accordingly. Well, I'm a little leery about sending watchdog traffic (even if none) to general@ - all it takes is one guy getting interested :) geir Yoav This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
We still need to take care of the mailing lists. I see two options: - We revive the watchdog-dev/watchdog-user mailing lists and redirect them somewhere like [EMAIL PROTECTED], or - We just leave them dead, take off the subscription links on the Watchdog site, and indicate in our notice of dormancy that questions about watchdog should be submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why not just monitor them? There's nothing to monitor: the lists are dead. I can add redirects with about 60 seconds worth of work from start to finish, or we can change the site. So just make a decision as to what you would prefer as best, and let me know. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
-Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:13 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? Henri Yandell wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project. Ever. Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in the incubator and 'fail', or in commons-sandbox. Depends upon what happens in the Incubator. If it does actually fail, then I would probably concur that in most cases we should remove the code from public view. The project would be free to resurface elsewhere. But even if a sandbox project is just an experiment, as long as it was properly developed within the ASF (as opposed to something that improperly bypassed the Incubator), I'd probably leave it fallow, and mark it as dormant. Agreed, I've been party to more than one revival in the Commons Sandbox, and I think that it is very valuable to give projects ample time to attract others with similar interests. I'm not agitating for the death of Watchdog, just noting inactivity, - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
-Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Having Tomcat community take care of watchdog would be great, and it doesn't imply any major work like moving the code or site. Just paying attention to the lists and putting a notice on the Watchdog site to the effect of dormancy would be an excellent start. There, that's really all that is needed. The use of Watchdog is proof of life, a notice about current status and an update would certainly help those who want to know the status of the project. An issue has been entered into Bugzilla to this effect. Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Tim O'Brien wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the Graveyard. Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with dormant projects. You've been involved in formulating a process for the introduction of projects, I'd imagine you have views on the removal of projects. Ah. Although I do have views on the subjects, I don't really see the issues as any more related than meal preparation is related to a colonoscopy. I think that dormancy is a problem which is fixed by discussions like the one we are currently having. If no one had stood up and taken at least minimal responsibility for updating some sort of status, I'm not sure it would have been a good idea to just let Watchdog flounder indefinitely. Why not? We leave the resources in place, with a notice that the project is dormant. If it is revitalized, great. If not, what harm is there? Yoav's work on Watchdog isn't going to make it less dormant. He will apply some changes necessary for Tomcat; possibly ask the PMC to vote for a release (or Tomcat will work from CVS); make the necessary changes to the site to mark the project as stable but dormant; and invite people to be active if they want to see further changes. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
-Original Message- From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 1:55 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? Tim O'Brien wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the Graveyard. Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with dormant projects. You've been involved in formulating a process for the introduction of projects, I'd imagine you have views on the removal of projects. Ah. Although I do have views on the subjects, I don't really see the issues as any more related than meal preparation is related to a colonoscopy. Or, asking an obstetrician about euthanasia. I think that dormancy is a problem which is fixed by discussions like the one we are currently having. If no one had stood up and taken at least minimal responsibility for updating some sort of status, I'm not sure it would have been a good idea to just let Watchdog flounder indefinitely. Why not? We leave the resources in place, with a notice that the project is dormant. If it is revitalized, great. If not, what harm is there? Yoav's work on Watchdog isn't going to make it less dormant. He will apply some changes necessary for Tomcat; possibly ask the PMC to vote for a release (or Tomcat will work from CVS); make the necessary changes to the site to mark the project as stable but dormant; and invite people to be active if they want to see further changes. We agree that burying a project is less than helpful. It is the invite people to be active part that interests me. I'm not saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is polite to our users to give people a sense of activity. Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 15:14, Tim O'Brien wrote: It is the invite people to be active part that interests me. I'm not saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is polite to our users to give people a sense of activity. That's one of the nice things about a GForge-ish project site; there are all sorts of stat charts built in: http://rubyforge.org/project/stats/?group_id=182 Also, GForge tots up CVS commits, bugs, forum posts, releases, and so forth and munges it all into an activity percentile. Good times. Yours, Tom - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
-Original Message- From: Tom Copeland [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:19 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead? On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 15:14, Tim O'Brien wrote: It is the invite people to be active part that interests me. I'm not saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is polite to our users to give people a sense of activity. That's one of the nice things about a GForge-ish project site; there are all sorts of stat charts built in: http://rubyforge.org/project/stats/?group_id=182 Also, GForge tots up CVS commits, bugs, forum posts, releases, and so forth and munges it all into an activity percentile. Good times. I'm not advocating this for ASF. There is a downside to communicating too much information about activity for an open source project. There is room for meaningful social statistics like Agora, but adding some sort of Activity percentage sends the wrong message. A project isn't good or healthy because it is popular and has a larger number of CVS commits. Not disparaging your own use of this tool, of course. Anyway, this is becoming OT: Watchdog status updated, tuning out.. Yours, Tom - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
We agree that burying a project is less than helpful. It is the invite people to be active part that interests me. I'm not saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is polite to our users to give people a sense of activity. Well, if we focus on the word COMMUNITY instead of PROJECT, perhaps say that the COMMUNITY has gone quiet, I believe that they'll get the idea. We want to see the COMMUNITY revitalized, and I believe that people understand (or it can be more easily explained) that participation is the necessary ingredient. A community is made of members. If there are people who want to be members, we will help support the community. My view is that for all of the talk of CLAs, karma, and other things, the ASF exists to SUPPORT COMMUNITIES. We have a philosophy about what makes a good Open Source Community, and how we want to see code licensed. The core mission of the ASF is to support Communities that join with us and adopt our approach. The ASF doesn't develop software -- it develops and enables Communities, made up of individuals, which then develop software. Our focus is on people, from which we believe that code follows. A project doesn't die. Code doesn't keel over and go legs up. A community may dissolve, but the code is still there, just waiting. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: Yoav Shapira wrote: OK, then let me propose this: - We give Danny Angus and myself karma for Watchdog. There are no active committers to nominate us. +1 +1 Let's just go ahead and do this. :-) +1. Yoav and Danny are the developer community :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Yoav, no such mailbox: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know the answer to the project status, but I can confirm that there is no such mailing list currently existent. I don't know when it disappeared, other than the fact that it stopped archiving back in Nov 2002, but entire mailing lists structures don't disappear by accident. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
