Re: Jakarta-tools ? Re: Code Sharing Concepts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What about starting the "reuse" quest by reusing the jakarta-tools
repository ?
Wouldn't that break the "old" version of Watchdog ("jakarta-watchdog") that still
has dependencies here?
At any rate, the process questions need to be settled now (before any of us get
any more entrenched in our attitudes :-) -- IMHO it is premature to start checking
in code.
Costin
Craig
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Re: VOTE/PROPOSAL: new commiters for jakarta-tools
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone can ( and should ) vote on those issues, but only jakarta-tools commiter votes will be counted ( for the first one). If the first vote is positive, all commter votes will be counted for the second :-) OK, since you put it formally, I will as well: -1 For the following reasons: * Although the Ant code in jakarta-tools is no longer used, the other components (moo) are used in jakarta-watchdog. This codebase is not an orphan. (Creating a new CVS repository under some other name would deal with this issue, but that's a new project and needs to go through the usual process). * There is no precedent or process yet within Jakarta for a codebase that belongs to more than one subproject. The rules for voting and such would need to be defined -- therefore, this proposal is premature. (NOTE: even if we just accept the typical vote counting rules, the "every committer on a subproject is also a committer here" rule would tend to give subprojects with large committer counts inordinate influence on the direction of the shared library code). * It is not clear that consensus on process and procedure *can* be gained -- we're only starting to actively discuss it. Effort that is invested in checking in code now will be potentially wasted (if no consensus is ever reached) or need to be redone anyway (once process/procedure questions are resolved), leading to a lack of efficiency. * There is no need to post code into a single repository in order to accomplish the objective of looking at what we already have. After all, this is open source :-). Pointers to the classes and modules you think might be useful candidates are certainly sufficient for that. Costin Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta-tools ? Re: Code Sharing Concepts
What about starting the "reuse" quest by reusing the jakarta-tools
repository ?
Wouldn't that break the "old" version of Watchdog ("jakarta-watchdog") that still
has dependencies here?
In what way ? By adding new directories and tools the old one shouldn't be
affected. Watchdog is using moo.jar ( which is also used by tomcat3.3 to
run the watchdog from a web application ).
At any rate, the process questions need to be settled now (before any of us get
any more entrenched in our attitudes :-) -- IMHO it is premature to start checking
in code.
I don't expect too much code to be checked in in the close future, but I
hope this will move us from "talk" state into "do" state, and maybe at
least 1-2 tools will be checked in to jumpstart the process and to allow
us to test the concepts.
It's hard to know if something will work you don't try.
--
Costin
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You make the decision. (Mini-Essay #1)
Hey all, this is just the start of more coverage on why JSP sucks. I will
eventually compile these mini-essay's into an essay titled "You make the
decision." and publish it on the web somewhere (in other words, I'm
collecting information).
Key:
"" - quotes from the article
[] - editorial comments from the pain in the ass
Article:
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/
"Now, we're big fans of Java - we've used it in the past, and will do so
again in the future - but this series of tutorials isn't about Java. It's
actually about an offshoot of Java..."
[Suddenly JSP is an "offshoot" of Java. Right there you have the problem
that people are now encouraged to write some pseudo Java in their JSP
pages.]
"And so, JSP was developed to separate application logic from the interface,
so that changes to one would not affect the other. Working closely with
developers like The Apache Group, JSP uses a tag-based approach (similar to
PHP and ASP) which allows designers to make changes to the user interface
without affecting application logic."
[Ah...now I see...they DO slightly get it...except that they compare the
"tag-based approach" to PHP and ASP which don't use a JSP style taglib
approach...hmmm...keep reading...their misstatement will become real clear
soon...]
--
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page2.html
[blah blah blah about scalability...]
--
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page3.html
"
%
// asking for it!
out.println("Waiter, can I have a cup of Java, please?");
%
"
[The *FIRST* example of JSP usage is embedding Java code in the page. There
we go! The earlier misstatement is now clear! They mean that because your
CODE is embedded in % % tags that that is taglib just like ASP and PHP!
This is *exactly* what JSP taglibs are trying so hard to avoid and no one is
getting it! LOL!
Now, take that example and try making the word "cup" in a font size of +2.
In order to do that, you need to embed HTML within your String. What will
that look like?
%
// asking for it!
out.println("Waiter, can I have a font size=\"+2\"cup/font of Java,
please?");
%
How many strictly HTML designers do you know that can properly escape a
String? On top of it, you are now no better off than creating a Servlet. The
point being is that JSP simply moves the problem around. Before you needed
to have an IDE and a compiler, now you just need a text editor.
Oh wait, the above example is the wrong way to do it. There are better
ways...the point being that articles such as this one don't bother showing
it. They show the WRONG WAY FIRST! DUUU! This is another example
of why JSP Sucks.
]
"
Every JSP statement ends in a semi-colon - this convention is identical to
that used in Perl, and omitting the semi-colon is one of the most common
mistakes newbies make. Just as an example, here's what happens when you omit
the semi-colon from the example above:
org.apache.jasper.JasperException: Unable to compile class: Invalid type
expression.
out.println("Waiter, can I have a cup of Java, please?")
^
: Invalid declaration.
out.write("\r\n\r\n\r\n");
^
2 errors"
[Ok, here is the next reason why JSP sucks. They forgot a single ;. How many
designers do you know that can properly read a stack trace that doesn't even
give a good error message as to what the problem is? This is yet another
reason why JSP sucks...it has sucky error messages because it depends on the
javac compiler to get its information.]
---
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page4.html
[This page simply continues the tradition of embedding more Java code into
your page. How many designers really know what a String object is? It goes
on to explain the difference between %! and %...gee...I wonder how many
designers understand scope?]
---
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page5.html
[Wow...it only gets better...now we are doing math within our JSP page and
we are embedding even more HTML into out.println() statements. I love it!
More examples of exactly why JSP sucks! The people who write the articles on
JSP can't even provide a good example of how to "properly" use JSP!]
---
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page6.html
[Again...yet *another* page of the exact way that you shouldn't use JSP.]
---
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP/page7.html
[This is great! An entire page showing how JSP is no better than SSI!]
"And that's about it for this week. We've shown you the basic
Re: Jakarta-tools ? Re: Code Sharing Concepts
With Java, it's led by Sun who, while far better than most corporate entitites, is not about to lead a charge to organize the world of Free Java Resources. Are you saying that your opinion of Jakarta is that it is lead by Sun? Not at all, I'm saying the direction of the Java language (note my sentance did not contain the word 'Jakarta') is lead by Sun, which I do not believe to be in error. - jc - James Diggans Phone:301.987.1756 Gene Logic, Inc. FAX: 301.987.1701 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 301.908.2477 - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta-tools ? Re: Code Sharing Concepts
Not at all, I'm saying the direction of the Java language (note my sentance did not contain the word 'Jakarta') is lead by Sun, which I do not believe to be in error. - jc It wasn't a question of error. It was simply a question to see if that was your impression at all. :-) Actually to be honest I'm very impressed w/ the Jakarta community so far, what very little I know of it. It's highly structured, a very odd thing for a (mostly?) volunteer open-source project. My mention of Sun was more to the effect of: 'Sun, being a corporation rightly out to make a buck will never expend effort to organize the (free) resources of the Java community a la CPAN. Jakarta, however, being one of the most organized Java groups I've yet to find, might have the ability to do so as they are driven chiefly by the needs of the community and not by profit.' - jc - James Diggans Phone:301.987.1756 Gene Logic, Inc. FAX: 301.987.1701 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 301.908.2477 - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
