Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
Brian, On 06/19/10 11:37, Brian Harring wrote: > and you do not go into someone's home and tell them > what they can/cannot say. right. #gentoo-infra is not anybody's home though: it's an infra-matter channel of Gentoo. If you like to view it as anybody's home it's home of Gentoo and therefore my home, too. > If you cannot understand this simple fact, then you're going to have > many, many ackward social interactions with the rest of humanity. > > Why? Because you're going around telling other people how *you* want > them to act, instead of what is *communally* agreed to. It seems we're just about finding out what is commonly agreed to. You are absolutely right: if that tone we had in #gentoo-infra yesterday is more agreed to in Gentoo than a friendly, non-sexist interaction I might be wrong around here and asking for changes is pointless, correct. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 09:00:26AM +, Duncan wrote: > Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:20:08 + as > excerpted: > > > you're confusing talk and jokes between developers on a particular > > private room with tone between members of the global community in public > > mediums. > > It's possible that's the case. However, it's also the case that with such > content, whatever consent there may have been between present parties > previously, as soon as one person present asks that it stop and it does > not, it's sexual harassment. Evidently, one person present, regular or > not, asked that it stop, and it didn't, ergo... I ask y'all to stop this unproductive line of discussion. Via your logic, aparently regardless of the sanity of the request, it must be followed. Bluntly, this logic, this conversation, and Sebastian sticking his nose into people joking with eachother in in #-infra is blown seriously out of proportion (for reference I was the one who stated "sorry, but _you're_ the one not finding it funny"). The PC level inplicit in this is farcical enough it belongs in a monty python sketch. Hell, even the exherbo smackdown earlier on ciaran was out of proportion (his points were valid and civil, even if you don't agree with them). Simply put, you gauge your tone dependant on your surroundings. You don't go into a funeral chanting Carlin's 7 words you can't say on television, and you do not go into someone's home and tell them what they can/cannot say. If you cannot understand this simple fact, then you're going to have many, many ackward social interactions with the rest of humanity. Why? Because you're going around telling other people how *you* want them to act, instead of what is *communally* agreed to. Tolerance cut's both ways. The people making the noise on this thread seem to be missing the bidirectional nature however. Finally, take the thread to -project... it's well past being even remotely technical. ~harring pgp6rvNj8EfpK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On 06/18/10 05:43, Jeroen Roovers wrote: >> Hmm - thats interesting, I subconsciously read the two questions into >> the one posted. I accept you point. Its something I am likely to >> write myself without thinking about it too much too. > > Oh, this is a good one. Without introducing the problem, it is being > assured that devrel has a problem because (some?) Gentoo users have a > problem. So I ask very straightforwardly when this was pointed out to > devrel, because I don't see the information being introduced to the > wider public that has led to this public e-mail accusing devrel of not > doing their job. Excuse me please, but how did I not turn out to ask > the right question about the information that wasn't exposed on a > public mailing list? And if I did put a vitriolic spin on it, then Jeroen, I'm not sure if I understood all of this ^^^. Is there anything I can still turn for the better? > how > would you sanctify your actions that bypassed normal procedure without > actually at least summarising how that procedure ran to a dead end? My latest thread of communication with them ended in X treating me like a child and me ending the discussion due to that. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 20:29:13 +0100 Roy Bamford wrote: > > "Have you pointed this out to DevRel? What was their reaction?" > > > > does not seem to have this mis-hearing problem, at least not to me. > > > Hmm - thats interesting, I subconsciously read the two questions into > the one posted. I accept you point. Its something I am likely to > write myself without thinking about it too much too. Oh, this is a good one. Without introducing the problem, it is being assured that devrel has a problem because (some?) Gentoo users have a problem. So I ask very straightforwardly when this was pointed out to devrel, because I don't see the information being introduced to the wider public that has led to this public e-mail accusing devrel of not doing their job. Excuse me please, but how did I not turn out to ask the right question about the information that wasn't exposed on a public mailing list? And if I did put a vitriolic spin on it, then how would you sanctify your actions that bypassed normal procedure without actually at least summarising how that procedure ran to a dead end? Regards, jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On 2010.06.16 23:33, Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Roy,
>
>
> On 06/16/10 21:40, Roy Bamford wrote:
> > As a native English speaker (from England) I view Jers reply as
> terse
> > and to the point, completely lacking in tone.
>
> interesting. Looking at the sentence
>
> "When did you point this out to devrel?"
>
> I would like to say that while it's not impolite per se it's
> implicitly
> saying "You _have to_ point this out to dev rel" in my ears. A more
> or
> less word-by-word translation to German ("Wann hast du das gegenüber
> DevRel angesprochen?") would make perfect sense and carry the same
> problem so I assume it's not an English language thing. In contrast
> asking
>
> "Have you pointed this out to DevRel? What was their reaction?"
>
> does not seem to have this mis-hearing problem, at least not to me.
>
Hmm - thats interesting, I subconsciously read the two questions into
the one posted. I accept you point. Its something I am likely to write
myself without thinking about it too much too.
>
> I remember a guy of the German Unix User Group (GUUG) saying
> something
> like
>
> "Communication is always oriented at the receiver".
>
Communication is a two way process. On other more immediate
media, that's reinforced as the "receiver" often asks questions to
clarify the intent of the communication. That does not seem to happen
as much in email so misunderstandings are more frequent and more
damaging as they take longer to resolve.
> Applying that to tone and avoiding mis-interpretation the sender has
> the
> power (and arguably the responsiblity) to sounds as friendly as
> needed
> to be sure it will not be understood as unfriendly. In a way there's
> always a way to be friendlier - _without_ faking anything.
>
Hmm - its quite possible to give offence without intending to. The
receiver also has the power and responsibility to clarify the intent of
the communication before concluding that it was intended in any
particular manner.
> Best,
>
>
>
> Sebastian
>
>
>
--
Regards,
Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
Jeroen, On 06/16/10 21:31, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > 1) that there are probably some good examples of the bad tone that sping > referred to, perhaps in the devrel/userrel domain and therefore not > initially public, and that unless those projects fail (to uphold the > CoC), we should probably not be talking about it on a public mailing > list. from demanding a friendly tone on other mailing lists myself and the private "thank you, I was afraid this was accepted around here" replies after I prefer to keep tone discussions in the open as far as possible. Our user base wouldn't know we care about tone if we discussed it in private. On the conflict resolution I would go as far as stating that DevRel currently fails at that. I'll start a new thread on that. > 2) that "tone" is unavoidably a subjective matter, which is precisely > the reason that some in our community choose consciously to be concise, > informative and dispassionate, while you might infer that this results > in curt, graceless and unaffectionate communication, or "bad tone" in > short. I agree that's though to do well. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
Nikos, thanks for speaking up on this matter. I encourage more Gentoo users to make them heard with this. Best, Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
Roy,
On 06/16/10 21:40, Roy Bamford wrote:
> As a native English speaker (from England) I view Jers reply as terse
> and to the point, completely lacking in tone.
interesting. Looking at the sentence
"When did you point this out to devrel?"
I would like to say that while it's not impolite per se it's implicitly
saying "You _have to_ point this out to dev rel" in my ears. A more or
less word-by-word translation to German ("Wann hast du das gegenüber
DevRel angesprochen?") would make perfect sense and carry the same
problem so I assume it's not an English language thing. In contrast asking
"Have you pointed this out to DevRel? What was their reaction?"
does not seem to have this mis-hearing problem, at least not to me.
I remember a guy of the German Unix User Group (GUUG) saying something like
"Communication is always oriented at the receiver".
Applying that to tone and avoiding mis-interpretation the sender has the
power (and arguably the responsiblity) to sounds as friendly as needed
to be sure it will not be understood as unfriendly. In a way there's
always a way to be friendlier - _without_ faking anything.
Some of you may know ArneBab's signature saying:
"Being unpolitical means being political without realizing it."
Maybe not applying tone means applying tone without realizing, too.
Best,
Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On 2010.06.16 16:36, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: > On 06/16/2010 08:43 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200 > > Sebastian Pipping wrote: > > > >> Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. > >> > >> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the > >> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. > > > > That's a conclusion first, then a premise? > > > >> I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the > Gentoo > >> Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of > >> Gentoo [3]. In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and > bad > >> behavior is. The term "Acceptable behaviour" may make sense as a > >> counterpart to "Unacceptable behaviour" but feels like "what you > can > >> get away with" to me anyhow. > > > >> - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be > >> a friendly community? Has it always been that way? > > > > What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, > where, > > when, what channel, thread? [snip] > Nikos, As a native English speaker (from England) I view Jers reply as terse and to the point, completely lacking in tone. As Alec has already pointed out, it asks questions that need to be asked to advance the discussion. To add my opinion to the reasons for the tone in gentoo communication channels (all of them) ... 1. Many posters are using a language that they are less than fluent in. 2. There are so many ways to say the same thing in English, its easy to be misunderstood. Take into account point 1 here. 3. Most contraversially, many of our developers are young and still have to develop the social skills that only come with experience. Keep in mind points 1 and 2. Read age in place of experience if you like but that's not a politically correct statement, which is I suppose another issue. -- Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods trustees
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:36:31 +0300 Nikos Chantziaras wrote: > Those replies are a good example of the rude behavior the poster is > referring to. The replies consisted of sarcastic questions in > "you're an idiot" style. The only thing they do is trying to trigger > a hostile response from the poster. They were simple questions. I asked them because I care, not because I am planning to defend a status quo. > Very good example of tone in Gentoo. Maybe instead you have come to expect a certain "Gentoo tone" to accompany the silent letters of an e-mail? I certainly didn't put that tone in there. What I think but didn't initially say: 1) that there are probably some good examples of the bad tone that sping referred to, perhaps in the devrel/userrel domain and therefore not initially public, and that unless those projects fail (to uphold the CoC), we should probably not be talking about it on a public mailing list. 2) that "tone" is unavoidably a subjective matter, which is precisely the reason that some in our community choose consciously to be concise, informative and dispassionate, while you might infer that this results in curt, graceless and unaffectionate communication, or "bad tone" in short. Regards, jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Tone in Gentoo
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Nikos Chantziaras wrote: > On 06/16/2010 08:43 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: >> >> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:33:27 +0200 >> Sebastian Pipping wrote: >> >>> Tone is currently not a strength of Gentoo. >>> >>> As I have heard there are people not joining Gentoo because the >>> atmosphere in Gentoo is lacking respect and empathy. >> >> That's a conclusion first, then a premise? >> >>> I have searched a few places for rules on tone, looking at the Gentoo >>> Social Contract [1], the Code of Conduct [2] and the Philosophy of >>> Gentoo [3]. In a way the Code of Conduct defines what good and bad >>> behavior is. The term "Acceptable behaviour" may make sense as a >>> counterpart to "Unacceptable behaviour" but feels like "what you can >>> get away with" to me anyhow. >> >>> - How come tone is so rough when we actually meant to be >>> a friendly community? Has it always been that way? >> >> What are you referring to? forums.g.o? bugs.g.o? #gentoo? Who, where, >> when, what channel, thread? >> >>> - With these Code of Conduct rules in place how come DevRel >>> is not publicly reminding of these rules where necessary? >> >> When did you point this out to devrel? >> [... snip ...] > > Those replies are a good example of the rude behavior the poster is > referring to. The replies consisted of sarcastic questions in "you're an > idiot" style. The only thing they do is trying to trigger a hostile > response from the poster. Don't read so much between Jer's words. The tone of the reply could certainly use improvement but I do not think his questions were meant to be sarcastic at all or imply the poster was an idiot. The only thing Jer was trying to 'trigger' is a response with some evidence of 'bad tone' so we can continue the discussion. I don't think a hostile reply was intended at all. You may not like the tone of the questions but certainly asking for examples of 'bad tone' is likely a key step in improving the tone of the community. Otherwise people have no idea what they are doing wrong in the community's eyes and have no way to improve it. DevRel tends to be a body of folks that do not act unless things are reported. Asking 'when did you report these items to DevRel and what action did they take if any' is likely a reasonable question as well. Again pointing out what DevRel is doing wrong and providing alternative actions will likely be a necessary part of this process. > > Very good example of tone in Gentoo. > > >
