Re: [gentoo-user] How to run Firefox Beta?
On Friday 26 April 2013 11:05:05 AM IST, Alecks Gates wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Nilesh Govindrajan m...@nileshgr.com wrote: I downloaded Firefox Beta official tbz2 from mozilla.org and extract into ~ But, ldd libxul.so says libasound.so.2 not found, even though /usr/lib where libasound.so.2 exists is in LD_LIBRARY_PATH. How to run it? Are you running amd64 Gentoo and did you download the 32 bit Firefox? You might have to install some emul packages. I don't think there's any distinction between 32bit and 64bit on this page - http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all-beta.html So for compatibility I guess it'll be 32bit? smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How to run Firefox Beta?
On Friday 26 April 2013 11:36:51 AM IST, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 11:05:05 AM IST, Alecks Gates wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Nilesh Govindrajan m...@nileshgr.com wrote: I downloaded Firefox Beta official tbz2 from mozilla.org and extract into ~ But, ldd libxul.so says libasound.so.2 not found, even though /usr/lib where libasound.so.2 exists is in LD_LIBRARY_PATH. How to run it? Are you running amd64 Gentoo and did you download the 32 bit Firefox? You might have to install some emul packages. I don't think there's any distinction between 32bit and 64bit on this page - http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all-beta.html So for compatibility I guess it'll be 32bit? Yep, it's 32 bit. Installed emul-x86-soundlibs. Now there are no library issues, but when I run LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:. ./firefox (or ./firefox-bin) it says: ➜ firefox LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:. ./firefox (firefox:30259): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: qtcurve, (firefox:30259): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: qtcurve, ➜ firefox And just exits. Doesn't even show the window. If I run with -ProfileManager, I get some XML Error [see attached image]. Upstream issue? attachment: snap2.png smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-user] How to run Firefox Beta?
On Friday 26 April 2013 12:09 PM, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 11:36:51 AM IST, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 11:05:05 AM IST, Alecks Gates wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Nilesh Govindrajan m...@nileshgr.com wrote: I downloaded Firefox Beta official tbz2 from mozilla.org and extract into ~ But, ldd libxul.so says libasound.so.2 not found, even though /usr/lib where libasound.so.2 exists is in LD_LIBRARY_PATH. How to run it? Are you running amd64 Gentoo and did you download the 32 bit Firefox? You might have to install some emul packages. I don't think there's any distinction between 32bit and 64bit on this page - http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all-beta.html So for compatibility I guess it'll be 32bit? Yep, it's 32 bit. Installed emul-x86-soundlibs. Now there are no library issues, but when I run LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:. ./firefox (or ./firefox-bin) it says: ➜ firefox LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:. ./firefox (firefox:30259): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: qtcurve, (firefox:30259): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: qtcurve, ➜ firefox And just exits. Doesn't even show the window. If I run with -ProfileManager, I get some XML Error [see attached image]. Upstream issue? Had attached image, but for some reason thunderbird sent without it. Sorry. attachment: snap2.png smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-user] PosgreSQL - pg_hba.conf localhost access only
On Thu, April 25, 2013 20:26, Joseph wrote: On 04/25/13 18:57, J. Roeleveld wrote: So pg_hba.conf only controls direct connections to postgreSQL. Correct. Since apache group is in postgres user; apache was given permission to access the database in this case py-passing the setting in pg_hba.conf Wrong, Postgresql does not check group-ownership. Your pg_hba.conf file will have a setting that allows Apache to connect. Is there a way to force sequence: Apache/website - pg_hba.conf - Postgresql Postgresql will always read the pg_hba.conf file and use that to determine who can and can not connect directly to Postgresql. -- Joost I've tired with this line: local clinic sql-ledger trust I can connect to clinic database form localhost and any box on the network. It works OK But I when I tried to further limit the database to a single IP, postgresql refused to start. local clinic sql-ledger10.0.0.100/32 trust This line is wrong, please read the comments in the supplied pg_hba.conf file: # local is for Unix domain socket connections only If you want to limit to an IP-address, then you nneed to use host -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] How to run Firefox Beta?
On Friday 26 April 2013 12:10:34 PM IST, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 12:09 PM, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 11:36:51 AM IST, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 11:05:05 AM IST, Alecks Gates wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:57 PM, Nilesh Govindrajan m...@nileshgr.com wrote: I downloaded Firefox Beta official tbz2 from mozilla.org and extract into ~ But, ldd libxul.so says libasound.so.2 not found, even though /usr/lib where libasound.so.2 exists is in LD_LIBRARY_PATH. How to run it? Are you running amd64 Gentoo and did you download the 32 bit Firefox? You might have to install some emul packages. I don't think there's any distinction between 32bit and 64bit on this page - http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/all-beta.html So for compatibility I guess it'll be 32bit? Yep, it's 32 bit. Installed emul-x86-soundlibs. Now there are no library issues, but when I run LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:. ./firefox (or ./firefox-bin) it says: ➜ firefox LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:. ./firefox (firefox:30259): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: qtcurve, (firefox:30259): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to locate theme engine in module_path: qtcurve, ➜ firefox And just exits. Doesn't even show the window. If I run with -ProfileManager, I get some XML Error [see attached image]. Upstream issue? Had attached image, but for some reason thunderbird sent without it. Sorry. Never mind, I found the mozilla overlay. It has firefox beta. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-user] can't mount ext4 fs as est3 or ext3
Hi, EXT3-fs (sda5): error: couldn't mount because of unsupported optional features (240) /dev/sda5 / ext4noatime,discard 0 1 When first mounting the root filesystem the kernel has no access to /etc/fstab and therefore by default tries mounting it with all available FS drivers until one succeeds. ext3 (or ext4 in ext3 mode) is tried before ext4 and you get that error when it fails because the filesystem is using ext4-only features such as extents. You can avoid that by adding rootfstype=ext4 to the kernel command line. Since all my fs are ext4 I could remove ext3 support from the kernel (3.5.4). Is that the recommended procedure? You can remove ext2/ext3 support even if you still have ext2/ext3 filesystems around; the ext4 driver is backwards compatible and can handle those with no problems. You just have to make sure that CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23 is set in your kernel configuration. HTH andrea
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:17 AM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:48:07PM +0800, Mark David Dumlao wrote Analogy: 99% of people aren't going to need a11y. But the whole point of installing it by default on most desktop systems is that you can't predict who will need it, and _it does not harm_ (or very little harm) to the people who don't. [ list of pa horror anecdotes ] And a Google search turns up a lot more cases. So your tradeoffs are: A) no a11y unless elected by user: - for the 1%: a11y is a pain to install How painfull is it to add pulseaudio to USE in make.conf and then emerge --changed-use world So how painful is it to not add pulseaudio to your USE flag? You're comparing a gentoo user's experience, where we willingly wade in stuff to fix, to, say, an gnobuntudora user's experience, where all of this is automatic and made to just work... I wouldn't be surprised if the horror stories had to do with configuring the damned thing. It's actually interesting how dated (read:solved) some of the lag issues are when I _do_ google them which is revealing because the user might not even be able to see the screen (very big pain) Are you seriously arguing that a linux system will black-screen at bootup due to lack of pulseaudio? See my previous message: no. I'm arguing that a very simplistic take on more complexity = automatic bad is misguided. That is a strawman argument that avoids the question. This is *NOT* about a few megabytes of disk space. It's about an extra layer on top of the system, chewing up memory, slowing it down, and interacting with other software to cause problems. *THAT* is what it's about. The extra layer that eats up so much memory (megabytes), slowdown (megabytes!), and software bogging (more megabytes!) that it's a wonder why anybody's desktop works as is. Oh wait. YES it is entirely about a few megabytes you don't like. A few megabytes that OTHER people choose to put on THEIR computers to NO effect on yours. Even your sig betrays your bias. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[x] social Response needed: [ ] yes [x] up to you [ ] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [x] none
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: And you are vastly overstating the desirability of having pulseaudio enforced on users without very good cause How much barefaced lying can you do in one sentence? 1) it's not enforced _on you_. USE=-pulse 2) bluetooth headset goes in, audio goes out is good cause. and seem to have underestimated how deep that rabbit hole goes. No I haven't. I have no idea how deep the complexity of pulseaudio is because I don't know how to use it. I don't know how to use it because it just works. Somewhere, somehow at the back of these config files there was some switch I turned on for some nefarious purpose of enabling some plugin for switching default outputs. But if I compare how well I learned to use grub vs pulseaudio, two things that I use everyday, it's clear that one of them was more successful in hiding the complexity from me before I used it successfully. HINT: it wasn't grub. As others have stated, how many more such packages are there that can be argued to have them on a system? A good first grab would be the number of packages where the users are =1% and =99% You can argue those packages if you wish and I guarantee you'll fail 99.9% of them. Because they don't serve the purpose of controlling PLUG N PLAY AUDIO. If you actually talk like it matters what the programs do, rather than just making airy abstractions on what some ideal fetishized system should be like, you'll understand things better. It does no harm and might be useful for some is simply not a valid reason to enforce a package on all users, especially when said package is the latest johnny-come-lately from a wunderkind with a proven reputation for writing invasive code[1] Oh dear. I should've realized what this was really about. There aren't really any technical reasons behind this, are there? Just some good old fashioned Lennart hate boners. I have a perfect halloween campfire story for this group. The one where a malicious udev update gives a backdoor for He Who Must Not Be Named to install his LennartWare onto yor systems... Later guys. -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[x] social Response needed: [ ] yes [x] up to you [ ] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [x] none
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On 26.04.2013 12:34, Mark David Dumlao wrote: YES it is entirely about a few megabytes you don't like. A few megabytes that OTHER people choose to put on THEIR computers to NO effect on yours. YES it is entirely about a software I don't like. If other people choose to like the software is the problem of those people, but there is no way other people can (may, dare) make me like it. Note that I do not force other people to remove, avoid, or hate PA, nor do most others opposed to PA. There may be a wagon of reasons why I don't like it, from its name to its author's coding style to my experience with it 175 years ago, and for me these are all fair reasons. If you have your fair reasons to use it, please go ahead, but that doesn't imply that someone else is also going to need it, accept it, like it, or stop criticizing it. We've got freedom of speech, haven't we? ;-) If you find my arguments inconclusive, neither do I find your arguments it won't harm, it will have no effect, etc. As for `technical arguments`, much of them are as subjective as most non-technical arguments (e.g. `true unix way`, or `coding style`, or `a few megabytes` or `slowdown` as well as `NO effect` are all both technical and subjective). In the end, I humbly believe it's up to me to judge what effect there is for me on my computers. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Michael Mol mike...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/20/2013 05:34 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 09:28:03AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote [snip] If you need it, PA can be great. Not everyone needs or wants it, many people are quite content to just carry on as they always did and aren't fazed with minor niggles about their audio. You seem to fall in this category, so do many others. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Complex setups require complex software... deal with it. An analogy is that an 18-wheeler semi-tractor trailer with a 17-speed manual transmission (plus air brakes that require months of training to manage/use) is much more powerful than a Chevy Sonic hatchback when it comes to hauling huge loads. But for someoneone who merely wants to zip out to the supermarket and buy a week's groceries, the hatchback is much more appropriate. Similarly, PulseAudio may be better at handling complex situations like you describe. The yelling and screaming you're hearing are from the 99% of people whose setups are not complex enough to justify PulseAudio. Making 100% of setups more complex in order to handle the 1% of edge cases is simply wrong. The sad thing is, I've not infrequently wound up with sound systems that were *too* complex for PulseAudio to handle. At least, they were too complex for the configuration interfaces available, and documentation for how to do things more precisely (without writing code) was not forthcoming. Here's a scenario exactly as I was dealing with it around 2008: Dodo was a combination HTPC/desktop box.[1] It had five displays and three audio interfaces attached to it. Four of the displays sat on my desk, one of the displays was a 32 720p TV that served as the home theater screen.[2] The machine was sometimes used in both roles at once. The three audio interfaces were: 1) The onboard audio, which I sometimes used while using the box as a workstation. 2) A USB audio device, which I used if I was chilling on the couch and needed localized audio 3) A professional audio interface (I forget what, now) that fed my receiver as well as a crossover that built an LFE channel. PA kinda worked in this scenario, up until I physically interacted with the USB audio device. If I plugged into that, *everything* would suddenly route through the USB audio device, despite my careful routing of different applications to different audio sources. Probably no longer needed, but this is done by a default pulseaudio module, module-switch-on-connect, which is installed by default on Ubuntu. In /etc/pulse/default.pa, there would be a line load-module module-switch-on-connect that would do this. If disabled, you keep your routing after connects. No nice gui for configuring it as far as I can tell, though. If I'd learned to use JACK, things probably would have been easier...but I was using Ubuntu,[3] everything seemed designed around leveraging PA, and I hadn't learned to discard fancy desktop environments yet. You know the sad thing, though? ALSA would support that configuration very well, too. It has enough internal routing and mixing logic that it'd work. [1] It was also the home gateway router, too, but that's another story...and not much of one. [2] Incidentally, this was the same setup where I'd successfully mixed ATI and nVidia graphics hardware. I used the nvidia proprietary drivers and the open-source support for ATI...which admittedly wasn't much. But that's another story. [3] I wasn't consistently using Gentoo yet. That rather relates to the machine doubling as the network gateway...[4] [4] No, I wouldn't do a setup this complicated as one machine as a keystone in the network. At least, not again. -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[ ] social Response needed: [ ] yes [ ] up to you [ ] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [ ] none
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On 26/04/13 at 04:05pm, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: There may be a wagon of reasons why I don't like it, from its name to its author's coding style to my experience with it 175 years ago, and for me these are all fair reasons. Woah poettering wrote software that ran on this thing ? if so He just earned some respect in my books. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine :D -- - Yohan Pereira The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and a seal. -- Mark Twain
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On 26.04.2013 16:56, Yohan Pereira wrote: On 26/04/13 at 04:05pm, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: There may be a wagon of reasons why I don't like it, from its name to its author's coding style to my experience with it 175 years ago, and for me these are all fair reasons. Woah poettering wrote software that ran on this thing ? if so He just earned some respect in my books. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine Considering global effort on pushing his code, I sometimes doubt that he didn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering Since 2003, Poettering has worked in more than 40 software projects An average of 4 projects a year, statistics says. I don't rely on statistics though. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On 26/04/2013 10:50, Mark David Dumlao wrote: It does no harm and might be useful for some is simply not a valid reason to enforce a package on all users, especially when said package is the latest johnny-come-lately from a wunderkind with a proven reputation for writing invasive code[1] Oh dear. I should've realized what this was really about. There aren't really any technical reasons behind this, are there? Just some good old fashioned Lennart hate boners. I have a perfect halloween campfire story for this group. The one where a malicious udev update gives a backdoor for He Who Must Not Be Named to install his LennartWare onto yor systems... You missed the mark completely and your bias appears to be showing. You have no idea what I might consider this to be really about. And it's highly presumptuous of you to make the assumption you did. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 04/25/13 10:33, Nick Khamis wrote: Hello Everyone, We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. Thanks in Advance, N. put this script on a cron and enjoy :-) #!/bin/sh /usr/bin/rdate -s 128.138.140.44 /sbin/hwclock --systohc -- Joseph
Re: [gentoo-user] can't mount ext4 fs as est3 or ext3
On Thu, Apr 25 2013, Yuri K. Shatroff wrote: On 25.04.2013 18:26, gottl...@nyu.edu wrote: I get the following in /var/log/messages EXT3-fs (sda5): error: couldn't mount because of unsupported optional features (240) ... EXT4-fs (sda5): couldn't mount as ext2 due to feature incompatibilities ... EXT4-fs (sda5): mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. Opts: (null) Here is the entry in fstab /dev/sda5/ ext4noatime,discard 0 1 I am having no difficulty, but seeing the first (error) message every day in logwatch is annoying. Since all my fs are ext4 I could remove ext3 support from the kernel (3.5.4). Is that the recommended procedure? Yes, it is. Moreover, it is due to the ext3 legacy code that you are getting the EXT3 error (the first one) in /var/log/messages. Even if you remove ext3 legacy support from kernel, the ext2 and ext3 filesystems will be handled by the new ext4 code. As for the EXT4-fs message, probably it tries to mount the fs as ext2 first but it is not quite consistent for different fs, I'm getting it on some but not getting on others. Thank you. allan
Re: [gentoo-user] mkfs.reiserfs hangs system?
On Apr 26, 2013 10:31 AM, Pandu Poluan pa...@poluan.info wrote: On Apr 26, 2013 9:46 AM, Mark David Dumlao madum...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Pandu Poluan pa...@poluan.info wrote: Can't get to see dmesg, the system locked up tight. I can create an ext4 fs on a different partition, and since the 'disk' is actually a RAID array, if the array is going south, I should see the same problem with ext4, right? I am guessing that mkreiserfs happens to touch parts of the disk that mke2fs doesn't, and that the system hangs because the disk becomes unresponsive. I will predict that mkntfs, which by default zeroes out the partition, will fail similarly? -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[x] social Response needed: [ ] yes [x] up to you [ ] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [x] none Okay, everybody, thanks for all the input! Since this is a server in my office, I couldn't test until I arrive in my office. I'm now (just) arrived in my office, and I will try the following: 1. Create Reiserfs on a different partition, and 2. Create a different fs on the problematic partition. I'll report back with what happened. Rgds, -- A follow up: A partition that had no problems at all with ext4 earlier... ... again got stuck during mkfs.reiserfs. The journal creation progress reached 100%, then... nothing. System stuck totally. After about 15 minutes, ssh session died. Console session totally unresponsive. I will retry using mkntfs. Rgds, --
Re: [gentoo-user] can't mount ext4 fs as est3 or ext3
On Apr 26, 2013 3:09 PM, Andrea Conti a...@alyf.net wrote: Hi, EXT3-fs (sda5): error: couldn't mount because of unsupported optional features (240) /dev/sda5 / ext4noatime,discard 0 1 When first mounting the root filesystem the kernel has no access to /etc/fstab and therefore by default tries mounting it with all available FS drivers until one succeeds. ext3 (or ext4 in ext3 mode) is tried before ext4 and you get that error when it fails because the filesystem is using ext4-only features such as extents. You can avoid that by adding rootfstype=ext4 to the kernel command line. Cool! I didn't know that before... For a long time I just ignore the error messages, although yes they are annoying ;-) Rgds, --
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26-Apr-13 16:10, Joseph wrote: On 04/25/13 10:33, Nick Khamis wrote: We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. put this script on a cron and enjoy :-) #!/bin/sh /usr/bin/rdate -s 128.138.140.44 /sbin/hwclock --systohc Yeah, enjoy mysterious crashes of some services which die whenever system time changes rapidly, in one big step (i.e. dovecot, TS, etc)! Man, I sincerely hope you do *NOT* mean this seriously. It might work on desktop but that's definitely NOT the way time on servers should be updated! Some services are so sensitive they crash even if you shift time 0.2s back or forth! I had even to include tinker step 0 in my ntpd.conf just because of that problem (it means ntpd will now never adjust time by stepping, always only by slewing, which in my case is max 0.5ms per second)... Jarry -- ___ This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists! Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.
[gentoo-user] Nautical Gentoo hardware suggestions?
Hello, We'll it's time to take Gentoo on the boating excursions. sci-geosciences/opencpn is in portage and I'm going to the the Fl. Keys for a couple of weeks. [1] However, much of the time, the Gentoo_nav_hadware will be on a 17 foot boat (damp and salty if not wet) in search for those most treasured of crustaceans (lobster). So I'm looking for marine grade hardware onto which installation of Gentoo is reasonably straightforward. Otherwise, I can use something like my PandaBoard (Rev A1) if I could find at least a 6 screen that works in very bright sunlight? Any hardware input suggestions would be keenly anticipated. I've got about a month to prepare something. Garmin marine gear is just too pricey. PS, I can coat most electronics with a conformal coating. [2]. [1] http://opencpn.org [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_coating Let's get wet with ideas! Capn James
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 4/26/13, Jarry mr.ja...@gmail.com wrote: On 26-Apr-13 16:10, Joseph wrote: On 04/25/13 10:33, Nick Khamis wrote: We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. put this script on a cron and enjoy :-) #!/bin/sh /usr/bin/rdate -s 128.138.140.44 /sbin/hwclock --systohc Yeah, enjoy mysterious crashes of some services which die whenever system time changes rapidly, in one big step (i.e. dovecot, TS, etc)! Man, I sincerely hope you do *NOT* mean this seriously. It might work on desktop but that's definitely NOT the way time on servers should be updated! Some services are so sensitive they crash even if you shift time 0.2s back or forth! I had even to include tinker step 0 in my ntpd.conf just because of that problem (it means ntpd will now never adjust time by stepping, always only by slewing, which in my case is max 0.5ms per second)... Jarry -- ___ This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists! Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted. Hello Everyone, Thank you for the many solutions however, I am totally lost as to which would be most reliable in a collocation setting vs. office desktop. What we would like is to set up our own ntp server which other servers and desktops in our office syncs to. Is this advised? If so, is there a nice tutorial online? Kind Regards, N.
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff yks-...@yandex.ru wrote: In the end, I humbly believe it's up to me to judge what effect there is for me on my computers. Yes, that's exactly the point. Scroll up and reread this thread, though, and you'll get the impression that some complainers seem to think that Lennart is breaking into their systems and magickally installing his 175-year old software in them. What's this about 100% of the users being forced to have pulseaudio in? And don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about here. If somewhere up there we're talking about enforced choices we're not talking about gentoo, we're talking about stuff like Fedora or Ubuntu and even enforced is a stretch as you could always go with a minimal, alternate, or a forked desktop. And it's pretty obvious why they thought it was sane for pulse to be a default choice. Basically there's a bunch of vague criticisms of unnamed systems where they force stuff on all users for no good reason. Nevermind that we can actually state what the reasons are. Fingers in the ears. neener neener. Well I have a better theory, they made choices for defaults-using users that you can totally undo for pretty decent reasons but some of us just want to feel better about the choices we made by pointing and laughing at the ones we didn't. Even when we know so much about the topic that someone actually has to tell us what a sound server is or what its use cases are and our use patterns involve typing things in a black box so that pretty text scrolls quickly and makes us feel smart whereas the use patterns of the average user, uh... don't. It's a sane idea for a desktop distro to include pulse as a -default-. No, seriously, it is. Just, frigging bluetooth headsets. And per-application volume control. Are there other ways to go about it? Yeah. It remains to be seen how any of them are an order of magnitude better than pulse. You don't -like- it? Fine. There's no point in going on on some tirade about how the poor, oppressed 99% of users could have been doing just fine with ALSA just like you have with your more beautiful, hand-crafted system... -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[x] social Response needed: [ ] yes [x] up to you [ ] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [x] none
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 17:27, Nick Khamis wrote: Hello Everyone, Thank you for the many solutions however, I am totally lost as to which would be most reliable in a collocation setting vs. office desktop. What we would like is to set up our own ntp server which other servers and desktops in our office syncs to. Is this advised? If so, is there a nice tutorial online? The subject of time is vastly more complex than anyone ever thinks at first look. Time servers are tiered and are themselves both clients and servers... So here's what you do: sync everything to your ISP's time servers. Chances are good they do a better job than you can, just like with DNS caching. When you know more about the subject than you do now, you can venture into rolling your own. I'm not being rude or funny - time servers are just one of those things that unless you have special needs and LOTS of cash, it is so much easier to just let someone else do all the heavy lifting. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 4/26/13, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/04/2013 17:27, Nick Khamis wrote: Hello Everyone, Thank you for the many solutions however, I am totally lost as to which would be most reliable in a collocation setting vs. office desktop. What we would like is to set up our own ntp server which other servers and desktops in our office syncs to. Is this advised? If so, is there a nice tutorial online? The subject of time is vastly more complex than anyone ever thinks at first look. Time servers are tiered and are themselves both clients and servers... So here's what you do: sync everything to your ISP's time servers. Chances are good they do a better job than you can, just like with DNS caching. When you know more about the subject than you do now, you can venture into rolling your own. I'm not being rude or funny - time servers are just one of those things that unless you have special needs and LOTS of cash, it is so much easier to just let someone else do all the heavy lifting. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Hello Alan, Thank you so much for your response, and I totally understand the effort vs. benefit challenge. However, is it really that much trouble/unstable to setup our own ntp server that syncs with our local isp, and have our internal network sync on it? N.
[gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? This is a server and I don't want modules enabled at all.
[gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Hi all, since Linux-2.6.24, fcaps support is part of the vanilla kernel. If you also add libcap user and developer support and the commands getcap and setcap, you will be able to install working versions for: cdrecord, cdda2wav, readcd without making them suid-root. This works with cdrtools-3.01a14 or later. Check ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ for the sources. Happy hacking! Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni) joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
'evening, Mark. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:41:01PM +0800, Mark David Dumlao wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff yks-...@yandex.ru wrote: In the end, I humbly believe it's up to me to judge what effect there is for me on my computers. Yes, that's exactly the point. Scroll up and reread this thread, though, and you'll get the impression that some complainers seem to think that Lennart is breaking into their systems and magickally installing his 175-year old software in them. What's this about 100% of the users being forced to have pulseaudio in? Somebody reported that pulseaudio is an absolute requirement for Gnome =3.8. That may not be 100% of users, but the forced is certainly there. And don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about here. If somewhere up there we're talking about enforced choices we're not talking about gentoo, we're talking about stuff like Fedora or Ubuntu and even enforced is a stretch as you could always go with a minimal, alternate, or a forked desktop. And it's pretty obvious why they thought it was sane for pulse to be a default choice. There's a difference between a default choice and an absolute requirement. Basically there's a bunch of vague criticisms of unnamed systems where they force stuff on all users for no good reason. Nevermind that we can actually state what the reasons are. Fingers in the ears. neener neener. Please feel free to state those reasons, which as far as I can see, nobody has done yet in this thread; they being the gnome team, and the reasons being for the forcing, not for a non-existent default choice. Well I have a better theory, they made choices for defaults-using users that you can totally undo for pretty decent reasons but some of us just want to feel better about the choices we made by pointing and laughing at the ones we didn't. Even when we know so much about the topic that someone actually has to tell us what a sound server is or what its use cases are and our use patterns involve typing things in a black box so that pretty text scrolls quickly and makes us feel smart whereas the use patterns of the average user, uh... don't. It was me that started this thread, and me that needed that info. Why do you have to be so disparaging about the process of learning? It's a sane idea for a desktop distro to include pulse as a -default-. No, seriously, it is. Just, frigging bluetooth headsets. Do you frig bluetooth headsets? Can't say I do. And per-application volume control. Are there other ways to go about it? Yeah. It remains to be seen how any of them are an order of magnitude better than pulse. You don't -like- it? Fine. There's no point in going on on some tirade about how the poor, oppressed 99% of users could have been doing just fine with ALSA just like you have with your more beautiful, hand-crafted system... Yes, I took pulse out of my beautiful system. As it turns out, it hasn't (?completely) solved the problem of loosing the last few hundred milliseconds of audio downloads. But at least from now on, that's one fewer possible source of problems on my system. -- -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
On 26-Apr-13 18:11, Tanstaafl wrote: compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? Yes you are. If you want to use vm-tools (open or vmware), you have to enable kernel modules. And also some strange options (i.e. vmware-graphics). And as I told you previously, updating to new kernel is really pain in a**. That's why I got rid of the whole vm-stuff and I'm happy without it... Jarry -- ___ This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists! Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.
Re: [gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
On 26/04/2013 18:11, Tanstaafl wrote: compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? This is a server and I don't want modules enabled at all. Yes, you have to enable modules for that. The sources are written as kernel modules so that is how you build them. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
On 26/04/2013 18:37, Jarry wrote: On 26-Apr-13 18:11, Tanstaafl wrote: compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? Yes you are. If you want to use vm-tools (open or vmware), you have to enable kernel modules. And also some strange options (i.e. vmware-graphics). And as I told you previously, updating to new kernel is really pain in a**. That's why I got rid of the whole vm-stuff and I'm happy without it... Are you aware of module-rebuild rebuild? Nice little scriplet that reduces all that pain to running one single command after installing a new built kernel. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 17:54, Nick Khamis wrote: On 4/26/13, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/04/2013 17:27, Nick Khamis wrote: Hello Everyone, Thank you for the many solutions however, I am totally lost as to which would be most reliable in a collocation setting vs. office desktop. What we would like is to set up our own ntp server which other servers and desktops in our office syncs to. Is this advised? If so, is there a nice tutorial online? The subject of time is vastly more complex than anyone ever thinks at first look. Time servers are tiered and are themselves both clients and servers... So here's what you do: sync everything to your ISP's time servers. Chances are good they do a better job than you can, just like with DNS caching. When you know more about the subject than you do now, you can venture into rolling your own. I'm not being rude or funny - time servers are just one of those things that unless you have special needs and LOTS of cash, it is so much easier to just let someone else do all the heavy lifting. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Hello Alan, Thank you so much for your response, and I totally understand the effort vs. benefit challenge. However, is it really that much trouble/unstable to setup our own ntp server that syncs with our local isp, and have our internal network sync on it? No, it's not THAT much effort. You can get by with installing ntpd on a single machine, pointing it at the upstream time server and pointing all your clients to it. It's clearly recorded in the config file, you can't go wrong. It's understanding how this weird thing called time works that is the issue. Take for example leap seconds. urggg... The basic question I suppose is why do you want to do it this way? What do you feel you will gain by doing it yourself? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 06:18:13PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: Hi all, since Linux-2.6.24, fcaps support is part of the vanilla kernel. If you also add libcap user and developer support and the commands getcap and setcap, you will be able to install working versions for: cdrecord, cdda2wav, readcd without making them suid-root. This works with cdrtools-3.01a14 or later. Check ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ for the sources. Happy hacking! Jörg Thanks, Jorg -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] vmWare HowTo / best practices
On 2013-04-19 11:22 AM, Jarry mr.ja...@gmail.com wrote: vmware-tools: I have tested open-vm-tools but now I'm running my VMs without them because every kernel upgrade was a real pain in a**. And trully I did not see any benefit in running vm-tools (maybe it would be different on desktop). For shutdown of Gentoo-VMs from ESXi I use ssh-script or hibernation. Hi Jarry, I missed the significance of this (didn't realize that the vmware tools required modules to be enabled... Can you elaborate on how you execute safe shutdowns of your gentoo vms from the ESXi host? Thanks!
Re: [gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
On 26-Apr-13 18:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 26/04/2013 18:37, Jarry wrote: On 26-Apr-13 18:11, Tanstaafl wrote: compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? Yes you are. If you want to use vm-tools (open or vmware), you have to enable kernel modules. And also some strange options (i.e. vmware-graphics). And as I told you previously, updating to new kernel is really pain in a**. That's why I got rid of the whole vm-stuff and I'm happy without it... Are you aware of module-rebuild rebuild? Yes I am. Believe me or not, but this did not work. Nice little scriplet that reduces all that pain to running one single command after installing a new built kernel. I mean there is a problem with new kernel version. Not sure but I suppose open-vm-tools sources are installed into kernel sources tree. And if you install new kernel, open-vm-tools sources are not moved to the new kernel-sources tree. Whenever I installed new kernel-sources and re-created link /usr/src/linux pointing to the new sources, I had to re-emerge open-vm-tools too... Jarry -- ___ This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists! Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: [snip] Somebody reported that pulseaudio is an absolute requirement for Gnome =3.8. That may not be 100% of users, but the forced is certainly there. No one is forcing nothing on anyone, since nobody is forcing no one to use GNOME, Gentoo, or Linux for that matter. The developers of any project can always decide the dependencies of a project. If you are not a developer, you simply have no vote in the matter, although you certainly always have voice... that they can choose to ignore. There's a difference between a default choice and an absolute requirement. Yeah; and the decision is for the developers to make. Basically there's a bunch of vague criticisms of unnamed systems where they force stuff on all users for no good reason. Nevermind that we can actually state what the reasons are. Fingers in the ears. neener neener. Please feel free to state those reasons, which as far as I can see, nobody has done yet in this thread; they being the gnome team, and the reasons being for the forcing, not for a non-existent default choice. If GNOME has to support PA and non-pa systems, they need to code, test, support and bug-fix 2 different sets of of systems. If they need to support ConsoleKit and logind, the number grows to 4 (PA/ck, PA/logind, non-PA/ck, non-PA/logind). With 3 different optional requirements, it's 8 sets of systems. With 4, is 16. With n, it's 2^n. That's exponential growth, which in CS is always no-no. Who is going to code, test, support and bug fix all those possible configurations? You? The GNOME developers simply cannot support all different sets of possible configurations, and PA covers the sound needs of *ALL* users (doesn't matter if you like it or not), even the simple cases. If PA has bugs in some configuration, those bugs need to be fixed; the solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to remove PA, since the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. But hey, the source is there; feel free to patch whatever needs to be patched in GNOME (and probably GStreamer) so it doesn't require PA. Just be certain that those patches will be rejected by upstream, for the reasons stated above. And by the way, this is also true for Gentoo: it cannot support all different sets of possible configurations, no matter how hard they/we try. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Joerg Schilling schrieb am 26.04.2013 18:18: Hi all, since Linux-2.6.24, fcaps support is part of the vanilla kernel. If you also add libcap user and developer support and the commands getcap and setcap, you will be able to install working versions for: cdrecord, cdda2wav, readcd without making them suid-root. This works with cdrtools-3.01a14 or later. Check ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ for the sources. Happy hacking! Jörg Thanks Jörg, I have read the release notes for alpha14 and prepared an ebuild which automatically applies the required capabilities if the filecaps USE flag is set. Is there any chance to make this a configurable option, so it is possible to disable file capabilities even if libcap is installed? -- Regards Daniel Pielmeier signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Daniel Pielmeier bil...@gentoo.org wrote: without making them suid-root. This works with cdrtools-3.01a14 or later. Check ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ Thanks Jörg, I have read the release notes for alpha14 and prepared an ebuild which automatically applies the required capabilities if the filecaps USE flag is set. Is there any chance to make this a configurable option, so it is possible to disable file capabilities even if libcap is installed? If you install cdrecord/cdda2wav/readcd suid-root instead of applying the facps privileges, cdrtools will automatically behave as before. Is this sufficient? Note that if cdrtools was compiled on a machine with libcap installed, it needs libcap to run. Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni) joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 4/26/13, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/04/2013 17:54, Nick Khamis wrote: On 4/26/13, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/04/2013 17:27, Nick Khamis wrote: Hello Everyone, Thank you for the many solutions however, I am totally lost as to which would be most reliable in a collocation setting vs. office desktop. What we would like is to set up our own ntp server which other servers and desktops in our office syncs to. Is this advised? If so, is there a nice tutorial online? The subject of time is vastly more complex than anyone ever thinks at first look. Time servers are tiered and are themselves both clients and servers... So here's what you do: sync everything to your ISP's time servers. Chances are good they do a better job than you can, just like with DNS caching. When you know more about the subject than you do now, you can venture into rolling your own. I'm not being rude or funny - time servers are just one of those things that unless you have special needs and LOTS of cash, it is so much easier to just let someone else do all the heavy lifting. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Hello Alan, Thank you so much for your response, and I totally understand the effort vs. benefit challenge. However, is it really that much trouble/unstable to setup our own ntp server that syncs with our local isp, and have our internal network sync on it? No, it's not THAT much effort. You can get by with installing ntpd on a single machine, pointing it at the upstream time server and pointing all your clients to it. It's clearly recorded in the config file, you can't go wrong. It's understanding how this weird thing called time works that is the issue. Take for example leap seconds. urggg... The basic question I suppose is why do you want to do it this way? What do you feel you will gain by doing it yourself? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Hello Alan, Thank you so much for your time. Our voip cluster time always vary for some reason And with long distance, that could mean upwards to a dollar a call. N.
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Joerg Schilling schrieb am 26.04.2013 19:07: Daniel Pielmeier bil...@gentoo.org wrote: without making them suid-root. This works with cdrtools-3.01a14 or later. Check ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ Thanks Jörg, I have read the release notes for alpha14 and prepared an ebuild which automatically applies the required capabilities if the filecaps USE flag is set. Is there any chance to make this a configurable option, so it is possible to disable file capabilities even if libcap is installed? If you install cdrecord/cdda2wav/readcd suid-root instead of applying the facps privileges, cdrtools will automatically behave as before. Is this sufficient? Note that if cdrtools was compiled on a machine with libcap installed, it needs libcap to run. Jörg Actually it is the linkage against libcap what I am concerned of. Imagine the following scenario. Libcap is not present on the system. Then package X which requires libcap is installed and the package manager who knows this installs libcap as a dependency. Then package Y is installed which unconditionally links against libcap. The package manager is unaware of this and does not know about the dependency. Now package X is uninstalled and the package manager removes libcap because he thinks nothing on the system needs it anymore. Now package Y will stop working because libcap is not there anymore. If it is possible to conditionally link against libcap such issues could be avoided. Libcap will not be uninstalled if the dependency is known. Additionally it is possible to have libcap installed and not link cdrtools against it. -- Regards Daniel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On 26.04.2013 19:41, Mark David Dumlao wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff yks-...@yandex.ru wrote: In the end, I humbly believe it's up to me to judge what effect there is for me on my computers. Yes, that's exactly the point. Scroll up and reread this thread, though, and you'll get the impression that some complainers seem to think that Lennart is breaking into their systems and magickally installing his 175-year old software in them. What's this about 100% of the users being forced to have pulseaudio in? Yes, being. I don't know if Lennart writes great code (doesn't seem like that though) but what I can see is that he never asks what people need. He forces his self-righteous software upon us as a sole alternative. Instead of first creating (at least talking over) protocols which are (no need to explain why) better, he creates a proggy which aims to be all-powerful all-solving (including adobe flash's bugs) and probably to conquer all the world. I don't know again. That's the impression. Maybe there's one who knows better. But AFAICT all (really) great software talks protocols and standards. In Lennart's works, I don't see any. And that said, yes, I'm being forced. Gradually it all goes for us all to have to have his works installed everywhere. Someone's justifying this by the needs of 1% users, the other one by the ease to maintain one library instead of a lot, the next one by it being brand new -- regardless. It's kinda mass psychosis. Whatever you say if not it's great, you get: oh, again you with your criticism of lennart? I have *** installed and it works, and you are kinda dumb yourself etc. It doubtlessly greatly assists in inclining my point of view towards installing lennart's stuff, yeah. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
Re: [gentoo-user] Nautical Gentoo hardware suggestions?
On 26 April 2013, at 16:16, James wrote: … sci-geosciences/opencpn is in portage [1] That looks like awesome software! However, much of the time, the Gentoo_nav_hadware will be on a 17 foot boat (damp and salty if not wet) … So I'm looking for marine grade hardware onto which installation of Gentoo is reasonably straightforward. I don't know, but I think I'd start by looking at Android tablets. I'm sure there's an ARM version of Debian or Ubuntu that has been released for mobile devices. Based on the build quality of iMacs and MacBooks, I would have thought that the ideal physical platform would be that of the iPad - machined aluminium body, glass touchscreen, probably fairly tightly sealed at the seams. Of course Linux support on the iPad will probably be poor, at best, but looking at Android tablet devices, they seem at least superficially similar. I would look devices like a Nexus 7 or 10 for a start with. Perhaps with some waterproof bags, duck tape /or rubber sealant you could get a very waterproof platform for not much money. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff yks-...@yandex.ru wrote: On 26.04.2013 19:41, Mark David Dumlao wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Yuri K. Shatroff yks-...@yandex.ru wrote: In the end, I humbly believe it's up to me to judge what effect there is for me on my computers. Yes, that's exactly the point. Scroll up and reread this thread, though, and you'll get the impression that some complainers seem to think that Lennart is breaking into their systems and magickally installing his 175-year old software in them. What's this about 100% of the users being forced to have pulseaudio in? Yes, being. I don't know if Lennart writes great code (doesn't seem like that though) but what I can see is that he never asks what people need. He forces his self-righteous software upon us as a sole alternative. Instead of first creating (at least talking over) protocols which are (no need to explain why) better, he creates a proggy which aims to be all-powerful all-solving (including adobe flash's bugs) and probably to conquer all the world. I don't know again. That's the impression. Maybe there's one who knows better. But AFAICT all (really) great software talks protocols and standards. In Lennart's works, I don't see any. And that said, yes, I'm being forced. Gradually it all goes for us all to have to have his works installed everywhere. Someone's justifying this by the needs of 1% users, the other one by the ease to maintain one library instead of a lot, the next one by it being brand new -- regardless. It's kinda mass psychosis. Whatever you say if not it's great, you get: oh, again you with your criticism of lennart? I have *** installed and it works, and you are kinda dumb yourself etc. It doubtlessly greatly assists in inclining my point of view towards installing lennart's stuff, yeah. You do realize that Lennart hasn't been the maintainer of PulseAudio since *BEFORE* the 1.0 release? And that now it has in fact many contributors, and they just released 3.0 in December and are getting ready to release 4.0? And that systemd/udev has dozens of contributors, from (basically) all the distributions, and that several of them are kernel developers? You may not like the *design* of the stuff, but you certainly can't complaint about the *quality* of it. You are not being forced to anything: in the worst case you can patch all the programs you use, the code is out there. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Daniel Pielmeier bil...@gentoo.org wrote: Actually it is the linkage against libcap what I am concerned of. This is what I call a security risk with the current concepts of some linux systems. See Announcement file for more Imagine the following scenario. Libcap is not present on the system. Then package X which requires libcap is installed and the package manager who knows this installs libcap as a dependency. Then package Y is installed which unconditionally links against libcap. The package manager is unaware of this and does not know about the dependency. Now package X is uninstalled and the package manager removes libcap because he thinks nothing on the system needs it anymore. Now package Y will stop working because libcap is not there anymore. If it is possible to conditionally link against libcap such issues could be avoided. Libcap will not be uninstalled if the dependency is known. Additionally it is possible to have libcap installed and not link cdrtools against it. On Solaris, you cannot remove files that are part of the basic kernel features. Privileges on Solaris are a basic kernel feature and part of the basic security concept, so you cannot remove this on most Linux distros, it seems that you can. I am concerned about a different scenario: Imagine, you compile cdrtools without libcap and later install the support for the OS. Now you decide to use setcap to make cdrecord work. Cdrecord will really work this way, but you opened a security hole as this cdrecord now is not privileges aware and thus cannot even detect that it is running with more than basic privileges. Such a cdrecord installation will happyly write any local file for any local user to CD. Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni) joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26 April 2013, at 16:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... So here's what you do: sync everything to your ISP's time servers. Chances are good they do a better job than you can, just like with DNS caching. I'm not sure if my ISP offers time servers, but Apple and MS both run time servers which are publicly accessible (presumably from any o/s). I've never changed my laptop from its default, to sync with time.euro.apple.com, but my Linux boxes all use the public ntp pool, so I was surprised to read the other comments claiming the latter to be inaccurate. Whenever I restart /etc/init.d/ntpd on my Linux boxes I can see their time match that of my laptop, as consistent as I can see, i.e. less than a second's difference between them. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
'afternoon, Canek! On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:02:38PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: [snip] Somebody reported that pulseaudio is an absolute requirement for Gnome =3.8. That may not be 100% of users, but the forced is certainly there. No one is forcing nothing on anyone, since nobody is forcing no one to use GNOME, Gentoo, or Linux for that matter. That's a strawman argument. Anytime a free software project drops support for something, it forces its users to make choices. Yes, force. The developers of any project can always decide the dependencies of a project. If you are not a developer, you simply have no vote in the matter, although you certainly always have voice... that they can choose to ignore. Free software developers, having got people to commit to using their software, have responsibilities, albeit moral ones. The prime one is to support their users. You'll surely have noticed that what gets up the noses of people on this mailing list most is when support for reasonable configurations gets dropped. Witness all the recent trouble over eth0, for example. There's a difference between a default choice and an absolute requirement. Yeah; and the decision is for the developers to make. Basically there's a bunch of vague criticisms of unnamed systems where they force stuff on all users for no good reason. Nevermind that we can actually state what the reasons are. Fingers in the ears. neener neener. Please feel free to state those reasons, which as far as I can see, nobody has done yet in this thread; they being the gnome team, and the reasons being for the forcing, not for a non-existent default choice. If GNOME has to support PA and non-pa systems, they need to code, test, support and bug-fix 2 different sets of of systems. If they need to support ConsoleKit and logind, the number grows to 4 (PA/ck, PA/logind, non-PA/ck, non-PA/logind). With 3 different optional requirements, it's 8 sets of systems. With 4, is 16. With n, it's 2^n. That's exponential growth, which in CS is always no-no. WADR, that is simply false. With features which interact chaotically with eachother, yes, you have exponential growth. With distinct, self-contained features, each one is merely an incremental test effort. ALSA and pulseaudio are self-contained, and are also well tested in their own right. Only integration needs testing. If you were serious about this exponential growth, how on earth could, e.g., the Linux kernel or Emacs, both with thousands of options[*], possibly get tested anywhere near acceptably? [*] 12,666 in Linux 3.7.10, 7,510 in vanilla Emacs 24.3. Who is going to code, test, support and bug fix all those possible configurations? You? No. The gnome developers. I test and support all reasonable (and many unreasonable) combinations on my own free software project. The GNOME developers simply cannot support all different sets of possible configurations, and PA covers the sound needs of *ALL* users (doesn't matter if you like it or not), even the simple cases. What about the needs of those high-end audio users, for example, who need jack? What about those, like me, with audio problems, where the need exists to strip a system down so as to isolate those problems? If PA has bugs in some configuration, those bugs need to be fixed; the solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to remove PA, since the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. pulseaudio is a server component - gnome is an application. They are at different levels of the system hierarchy, just as a mail transport agent and mail user agent are. The maintainers of mutt don't force the use of, say, postfix. By long tradition on *nix, sysadmins configure their own systems, selecting those components which best fit their needs. gnome's decision to mandate pulseaudio interferes with this tradition. IMAO, this is a Bad Thing. But hey, the source is there; feel free to patch whatever needs to be patched in GNOME (and probably GStreamer) so it doesn't require PA. Just be certain that those patches will be rejected by upstream, for the reasons stated above. Making minor changes to free software is impracticable on a casual basis. Only forking a project can do this. You know this full well. And by the way, this is also true for Gentoo: it cannot support all different sets of possible configurations, no matter how hard they/we try. It come pretty close. :-) Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Joerg Schilling schrieb am 26.04.2013 20:31: Daniel Pielmeier bil...@gentoo.org wrote: Actually it is the linkage against libcap what I am concerned of. This is what I call a security risk with the current concepts of some linux systems. See Announcement file for more Imagine the following scenario. Libcap is not present on the system. Then package X which requires libcap is installed and the package manager who knows this installs libcap as a dependency. Then package Y is installed which unconditionally links against libcap. The package manager is unaware of this and does not know about the dependency. Now package X is uninstalled and the package manager removes libcap because he thinks nothing on the system needs it anymore. Now package Y will stop working because libcap is not there anymore. If it is possible to conditionally link against libcap such issues could be avoided. Libcap will not be uninstalled if the dependency is known. Additionally it is possible to have libcap installed and not link cdrtools against it. On Solaris, you cannot remove files that are part of the basic kernel features. Privileges on Solaris are a basic kernel feature and part of the basic security concept, so you cannot remove this on most Linux distros, it seems that you can. I am concerned about a different scenario: Imagine, you compile cdrtools without libcap and later install the support for the OS. Now you decide to use setcap to make cdrecord work. Cdrecord will really work this way, but you opened a security hole as this cdrecord now is not privileges aware and thus cannot even detect that it is running with more than basic privileges. Such a cdrecord installation will happyly write any local file for any local user to CD. Jörg If you add an option to make conditional linkage against libcap possible there are only two possible scenarios. cdrtools links against libcap and the capabilities are set or it doesn't link against libcap and cdrtools are installed suid root without capabilities. Everything is done in the ebuild and the user does not need to mess with setcap. It is controlled by the package manager and the linkage and capability setting are tied together at installation time. Just adding an option similar to the one for the ACLs would make my live a lot easier. Just enable it by default and make it possible to switch it off. -- Regards Daniel Pielmeier signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Nick Khamis sym...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Everyone, We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. I think the classic method is to use net-misc/ntp See the extensive article at http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/NTP for great examples and description.
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: 'afternoon, Canek! Hi Alan. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:02:38PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: [snip] Somebody reported that pulseaudio is an absolute requirement for Gnome =3.8. That may not be 100% of users, but the forced is certainly there. No one is forcing nothing on anyone, since nobody is forcing no one to use GNOME, Gentoo, or Linux for that matter. That's a strawman argument. Anytime a free software project drops support for something, it forces its users to make choices. Yes, force. I don't think that's true, since we are not paying anyone to do the work (well, at least for sure I'm not paying anyone to do anything). They (the developers) don't own us *anything*. The developers of any project can always decide the dependencies of a project. If you are not a developer, you simply have no vote in the matter, although you certainly always have voice... that they can choose to ignore. Free software developers, having got people to commit to using their software, have responsibilities, albeit moral ones. If you want to get into morals, this will become a religious argument, and sorry but I'm not interested in that. The prime one is to support their users. No; the prime one is to do their jobs. Most of them are employed by several of the available Open Source supporting companies; their responsibilities is to do the job they are being paid to do. If they are hobbyist, then their prime responsibility is to do whatever the hell they want to (and gets accepted in a community project). You'll surely have noticed that what gets up the noses of people on this mailing list most is when support for reasonable configurations gets dropped. Witness all the recent trouble over eth0, for example. What problem? I use NetworkManager in desktop and laptop; there is no problem there. I read the instructions in my media center and servers: no problems there. I don't particularly like the new funny names, but I don't write the code, and the fruits from it I get for free, so I don't complain about it. There's a difference between a default choice and an absolute requirement. Yeah; and the decision is for the developers to make. Basically there's a bunch of vague criticisms of unnamed systems where they force stuff on all users for no good reason. Nevermind that we can actually state what the reasons are. Fingers in the ears. neener neener. Please feel free to state those reasons, which as far as I can see, nobody has done yet in this thread; they being the gnome team, and the reasons being for the forcing, not for a non-existent default choice. If GNOME has to support PA and non-pa systems, they need to code, test, support and bug-fix 2 different sets of of systems. If they need to support ConsoleKit and logind, the number grows to 4 (PA/ck, PA/logind, non-PA/ck, non-PA/logind). With 3 different optional requirements, it's 8 sets of systems. With 4, is 16. With n, it's 2^n. That's exponential growth, which in CS is always no-no. WADR, that is simply false. With features which interact chaotically with eachother, yes, you have exponential growth. With distinct, self-contained features, each one is merely an incremental test effort. ALSA and pulseaudio are self-contained, and are also well tested in their own right. Only integration needs testing. OK, I exaggerated a bit; but who is going to do the integration testing? You? Because the GNOME developers have no interest in doing that, and I support their decision. If you were serious about this exponential growth, how on earth could, e.g., the Linux kernel or Emacs, both with thousands of options[*], possibly get tested anywhere near acceptably? [*] 12,666 in Linux 3.7.10, 7,510 in vanilla Emacs 24.3. Because they have enough integration testers. They have enough interested users to do the required testing; the kernel and Emacs is oriented towards technical apt users. The stated goal of the GNOME project is that even my grandmother could use it. Who is going to code, test, support and bug fix all those possible configurations? You? No. The gnome developers. Why? Because you say so? Do you pay them? I test and support all reasonable (and many unreasonable) combinations on my own free software project. Good for you: that's your call. It's not your call to say what the GNOME developers should use. The GNOME developers simply cannot support all different sets of possible configurations, and PA covers the sound needs of *ALL* users (doesn't matter if you like it or not), even the simple cases. What about the needs of those high-end audio users, for example, who need jack? There are several success stories about mixing PA with Jack; you can Google them. I don't see the problem. What about those, like me, with audio problems, where the
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On 26.04.2013 22:25, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: [ snip ] You do realize that Lennart hasn't been the maintainer of PulseAudio since *BEFORE* the 1.0 release? And that now it has in fact many contributors, and they just released 3.0 in December and are getting ready to release 4.0? And that systemd/udev has dozens of contributors, from (basically) all the distributions, and that several of them are kernel developers? Just the same way as Linus is the person of the kernel, and BG is the person of Microsoft, and Moscow is the capital of Russia (don't you take literally smth like Moscow agreed to Washington's terms), we probably do not speak of personalities or capitals but there is of course some connection and responsibility on their behalf. You may not like the *design* of the stuff, but you certainly can't complaint about the *quality* of it. How can quality be apart of design? What do you then mean by quality? Quality of bytes and indentation and comments? You are not being forced to anything: in the worst case you can patch all the programs you use, the code is out there. Thanks, it really doesn't look like forcing. On the higher level, there must be some politics going on; that's also not forcing, but politics. On the lower level (that of users) one's always got the worst case to demonstrate there's no forcing. But why not go the best case? It's a big mistake to think that developing software is about writing code; NO! it's about communication. What is your software usable for except its users' usage? Ask users and try to do what they want. Forcing begins when you the developer start to think what users want without asking them, that's why (some) users don't go the windows way, the mac way or other ways and NOT the quality or design of windows or mac, nor their cost. Free doesn't just mean you get it for free -- and as if that should be the indulgence of the developers; free is (to me) the freedom of communication between them and the users, it's what is called the community! (As an example, you may notice what's going on around MySQL, losing its community; feel free to take the code and patch though, as it remains GPL'd and free!) And when I hear Do you pay them? I answer, you need money -- why code then? Go to a stock exchange and trade, there's quite a bit more money guys. That's what about money. But if you do your job, please do it with regard to how it is going to be used. You agreed to the terms; there was no forcing. This is the line that must be drawn. (Similarly, when I'd start to pay, do I buy the right for `all my dreams to come true`? Another fair question would be: do I pay *enough*? Who pays more?) It's a neverending talk anyway. Everyone has his own attitude, and probably most of us are willing to make the world better, only according to one's own perception of better. -- Best wishes, Yuri K. Shatroff
[gentoo-user] GSettings-to-GConf problem
shotwell keeps crashing when I import photos with Copy Photos as opposed to Import in Place. I've been over this thoroughly with the shotwell list and they've come to these conclusions: There may be something about the configuration mapper on your machine that is just broken. the problem occurred deep inside of the GSettings-to-GConf mapper (gconfsettingsbackend) ask the Gentoo packagers why they're using a GSettings-to-GConf mapper, because GSettings is designed as an evolution over GConf and should have no relation to it whatsoever Can anyone shed any light on any of this? Should I file a Gentoo bug? - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Cdrtools installation without suid root
Daniel Pielmeier bil...@gentoo.org wrote: I am concerned about a different scenario: Imagine, you compile cdrtools without libcap and later install the support for the OS. Now you decide to use setcap to make cdrecord work. Cdrecord will really work this way, but you opened a security hole as this cdrecord now is not privileges aware and thus cannot even detect that it is running with more than basic privileges. Such a cdrecord installation will happyly write any local file for any local user to CD. Jörg If you add an option to make conditional linkage against libcap possible there are only two possible scenarios. cdrtools links against libcap and the capabilities are set or it doesn't link against libcap and cdrtools are installed suid root without capabilities. Everything is done in the ebuild and the user does not need to mess with setcap. It is controlled by the package manager and the linkage and capability setting are tied together at installation time. Just adding an option similar to the one for the ACLs would make my live a lot easier. Just enable it by default and make it possible to switch it off. I am not shure whether there is a missunderstanding. You could have an installation without libcap and without setcap/getcap where cdrecord still has active file capabilities. Nobody could check why, but cdrecord would be able to write any local file to CD on such a system. The only problem I see is that you are able to remove important software on a Linux installation while the kernel still supports the feature by default. Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni) joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
the solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to remove PA, since the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. I don't know the details of the pulseaudio implementation but I have a hunch the problem boils down to blind arrogance and ignorance on the part of the roots of the project. Initially Lennart thought it truly would suit all including pro audio users and as he has apparently stated he thinks all systems should run dbus...endof. Knowing a bit about pro audio myself with my Dad building his first Class A/B amp in his twenties it is not just feasible but close to a guarantee that Lennart did not realise what level of detail goes into pro audio including analysing cd players to find they add timing issues and the windows mixer found to cause real damage and need bypassing just like pulseaudio needs switching off (windows being worse however). It is actually very easy to bypass on Windows though, you just install whatever mixer comes with your pro sound card driver. There is nothing wrong with mis understanding the depth proaudio goes to. The problem is coders should expect their software to be replaceable and code with that in mind with the added benefit of competition being good especially in a free software ecosystem where one of the plusses has been avoiding user entrapment to make money. As for Desktop distros, they make an understandable choice of PA by default but what I especially don't understand and demonstrates the dependency issue is getting much worse is why removing polkit on Ubuntu means you lose. KDE Steam-launcher nvidia-settings pulseaudio many many more.. All of which would function just fine and in most cases perfectly via sudo. Polkit tries to do two things well and fails at the second which sudo does very well indeed, unfortunately many developers don't seem to understand that. Pulseaudio, well I am not sure if it is the design of pulseaudio and lack of utilising universal interfaces or the programs that use it such as Gnome and the packagers setting dependencies badly. Perhaps if packagers were more careful there would be less work for Gentoo in trying to give users choice and more reason for Gnome not to depend upon a package. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 19:11, Nick Khamis wrote: Thank you so much for your response, and I totally understand the effort vs. benefit challenge. However, is it really that much trouble/unstable to setup our own ntp server that syncs with our local isp, and have our internal network sync on it? No, it's not THAT much effort. You can get by with installing ntpd on a single machine, pointing it at the upstream time server and pointing all your clients to it. It's clearly recorded in the config file, you can't go wrong. It's understanding how this weird thing called time works that is the issue. Take for example leap seconds. urggg... The basic question I suppose is why do you want to do it this way? What do you feel you will gain by doing it yourself? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Hello Alan, Thank you so much for your time. Our voip cluster time always vary for some reason And with long distance, that could mean upwards to a dollar a call. Ah, OK. That changes things quite a bit. I have a little bit of experience with that - I work for a large ISP, we have a large VOIP department and we run a stratum 2 time server that serves most of the country. First things first: you can't just stick any old upstream ntp server in your config and walk away. You are then reliant on the quality of that upstream, and far too often other time servers operate on a good enough policy - if it's accurate to about a second, it's good enough (and for desktop users i.e. most ISP clients, it is good enough). I don't know how big your operation is, if you have budget I suggest you invest in a proper master time source that is GPS-driven. We have a Symmetricom (http://www.symmetricom.com) but it's a mature market with several vendors. Shop around, prices are less than you'd expect (about the same as a decent mid-range server and much less than Cisco's routers...) Weather can get in the way, so back up the device with a decent second upstream. I have a good one available run by the Science and Technology Research part of the Dept of Trade and Industry and the third option is all the other big ISPs around. Depending on your accuracy needs you could get away without the GPS unit and just use a good upstream, but I'd fight for the budget for it - tell management it puts control of billing back in your hands, they always fall for that one :-) So the summary would be that I reckon ntpd will do what you want as long as you chose good reliable time sources. With that in hand, the config is easy as rather well documented. Shout here ont he list if you need a hand with this when you come to deployment time -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
Hi, Canek. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 02:09:46PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: Hi Alan. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:02:38PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: [snip] Anytime a free software project drops support for something, it forces its users to make choices. Yes, force. I don't think that's true, since we are not paying anyone to do the work (well, at least for sure I'm not paying anyone to do anything). They (the developers) don't owe us *anything*. In a sense, no. But in another very important sense, yes. Without that sense of duty, of obligation, on the part of developers over the last few decades, GNU, Linux, X, BSD, ... would scarcely rate as more than toys. [ . ] If you want to get into morals, this will become a religious argument, and sorry but I'm not interested in that. Fair enough! The prime one is to support their users. No; the prime one is to do their jobs. Most of them are employed by several of the available Open Source supporting companies; their responsibilities is to do the job they are being paid to do. If they are hobbyist, then their prime responsibility is to do whatever the hell they want to (and gets accepted in a community project). Again, fair enough. But that's just as religious a viewpoint as my own. You'll surely have noticed that what gets up the noses of people on this mailing list most is when support for reasonable configurations gets dropped. Witness all the recent trouble over eth0, for example. What problem? I use NetworkManager in desktop and laptop; there is no problem there. I read the instructions in my media center and servers: no problems there. I don't particularly like the new funny names, but I don't write the code, and the fruits from it I get for free, so I don't complain about it. Some Gentooers had problems over this change. I didn't have problems as such, but the time spent not having these problems could, I feel, have been better spent. If you were serious about this exponential growth, how on earth could, e.g., the Linux kernel or Emacs, both with thousands of options[*], possibly get tested anywhere near acceptably? [*] 12,666 in Linux 3.7.10, 7,510 in vanilla Emacs 24.3. Because they have enough integration testers. They have enough interested users to do the required testing; the kernel and Emacs is oriented towards technical apt users. The stated goal of the GNOME project is that even my grandmother could use it. I understand what you're saying. In the limit, this tight integration will lead to a system barely capable of being customised. It will be as inflexible as MS Windows always has been. Will your GM want to use such a system? [ ] What about the needs of those high-end audio users, for example, who need jack? There are several success stories about mixing PA with Jack; you can Google them. I don't see the problem. I'm not an expert on jack, but I gather it's high-endedness implies very low latency, for example. Feeding a signal through pulseaudio as well would negate the whole purpose of jack. Maybe. What about those, like me, with audio problems, where the need exists to strip a system down so as to isolate those problems? As I said below: if PA has problems, they need to be fixed. Did you report the bugs? I don't even know where the bug is. It's somewhere in my audio. It might be in Firefox 17.0.5. It might be in pulseaudio, though having been able to remove it, I doubt it. It might be in ALSA. My point is, in a tightly integrated system, my chances of fixing the problem would be that much slimmer. I don't experience the problem in my fossilised mdev system from last summer. If PA has bugs in some configuration, those bugs need to be fixed; the solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to remove PA, since the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. pulseaudio is a server component - gnome is an application. They are at different levels of the system hierarchy, just as a mail transport agent and mail user agent are. The maintainers of mutt don't force the use of, say, postfix. By long tradition on *nix, sysadmins configure their own systems, selecting those components which best fit their needs. gnome's decision to mandate pulseaudio interferes with this tradition. IMAO, this is a Bad Thing. GNOME is a desktop environment, and it wants (from some years now) a vertical integration from kernel to the last userspace application. I root for that. That would probably be an environment I couldn't configure to work the way I want. Gnome and I will likely be parting company in the coming years. And I have been using Unix since 1996, and I don't care about what *nix long traditions are. I want a Linux system that works from my cellphone to my big iron
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
the solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to remove PA, since the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. I don't know the details of the pulseaudio implementation but I have a hunch the problem boils down to blind arrogance and ignorance on the part of the roots of the project. When trying to hunt down a thread to let a guy on the OpenBSD list know about Gnome 3.8 hard deps on pulseaudio. I came across this sarcasm about a comment by Lennart from a fairly prominent dev that adds to the idea of arrogance and ignorance possibly being a contributing factor. Lennart is a funny, funny man, go check the avahi code to see how nice it is. When working on Avahi I learned a lot about the complexities of safely and reliably running and maintaining system services, and about securing them as much as possible, which is particularly important for network facing services like Avahi. I implemented a lot of pretty nifty features in this area in Avahi. For example, Avahi is still pretty much the *only daemon* on a standard Linux install that chroot()s itself by default. ___ -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 20:36, Stroller wrote: On 26 April 2013, at 16:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... So here's what you do: sync everything to your ISP's time servers. Chances are good they do a better job than you can, just like with DNS caching. I'm not sure if my ISP offers time servers, but Apple and MS both run time servers which are publicly accessible (presumably from any o/s). I've never changed my laptop from its default, to sync with time.euro.apple.com, but my Linux boxes all use the public ntp pool, so I was surprised to read the other comments claiming the latter to be inaccurate. Whenever I restart /etc/init.d/ntpd on my Linux boxes I can see their time match that of my laptop, as consistent as I can see, i.e. less than a second's difference between them. ntpd has some wicked amazing optimizations built in, much more so if you use multiple upstream sources. If one of them drifts, the software is able to recognize it and defer instead to other sources that seem more stable. It's like magic, the dodgy data tends to fall out of the system leaving just the good data. Which is exactly what you want when using volunteer resources of unknown and variable quality. I'd compare the public ntp pool to a privateer race team - they can be awesome, do amazing things with limited resources and often win races. But for consistency and the best of the best, you need the Honda and Yamaha factory teams (complete with obscene budgets). For laptop, desktop and even most company's server needs, the public ntp pool is perfectly good enough, which is what I think you observe in your environment. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 20:54, Paul Hartman wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Nick Khamis sym...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Everyone, We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. I think the classic method is to use net-misc/ntp See the extensive article at http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/NTP for great examples and description. Do none of us here ever deal with Windows? :-) I notice that no-one has yet mentioned that Windows does not do ntp, as Windows does not do time right, doesn't do timezones right and I strongly suspect can't even do dates right (this latter still unproven) Windows time servers need some magic Microsoft thing called ENTP which is in no way related to the ntp we all know and love -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
Пятница, 26 апреля 2013, 22:41 +02:00 от Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: On 26/04/2013 20:54, Paul Hartman wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Nick Khamis sym...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Everyone, We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. I think the classic method is to use net-misc/ntp See the extensive article at http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/NTP for great examples and description. Do none of us here ever deal with Windows? :-) I notice that no-one has yet mentioned that Windows does not do ntp, as Windows does not do time right, doesn't do timezones right and I strongly suspect can't even do dates right (this latter still unproven) Windows time servers need some magic Microsoft thing called ENTP which is in no way related to the ntp we all know and love It refuses to adjust time if you have a wrong date. timezone is set in your system
Re: [gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
On 26/04/2013 18:54, Jarry wrote: On 26-Apr-13 18:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 26/04/2013 18:37, Jarry wrote: On 26-Apr-13 18:11, Tanstaafl wrote: compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? Yes you are. If you want to use vm-tools (open or vmware), you have to enable kernel modules. And also some strange options (i.e. vmware-graphics). And as I told you previously, updating to new kernel is really pain in a**. That's why I got rid of the whole vm-stuff and I'm happy without it... Are you aware of module-rebuild rebuild? Yes I am. Believe me or not, but this did not work. Nice little scriplet that reduces all that pain to running one single command after installing a new built kernel. I mean there is a problem with new kernel version. Not sure but I suppose open-vm-tools sources are installed into kernel sources tree. And if you install new kernel, open-vm-tools sources are not moved to the new kernel-sources tree. Whenever I installed new kernel-sources and re-created link /usr/src/linux pointing to the new sources, I had to re-emerge open-vm-tools too... I don't use open-vm-tools so I don't know how they work. I do know vmware and virtualbox's stuff though - basically the same as any out-of-tree module package. The ebuild takes care of the nitty-gritty and builds the modules against whatever /usr/src/linux points to. Is open-vm-tools the same? Deploying a new kernel version is a complex affair anyway. You have to configure the thing, carefully look out for new and changed config options, run FOUR make commands, edit grub.conf and do a lot of testing. Now you have to add one extra tiny little command to the end. It's one little bullet point in your process. Surely you can't be claiming that is a huge problem for you? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 22:46, the guard wrote: Пятница, 26 апреля 2013, 22:41 +02:00 от Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: On 26/04/2013 20:54, Paul Hartman wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Nick Khamis sym...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Everyone, We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. I think the classic method is to use net-misc/ntp See the extensive article at http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/NTP for great examples and description. Do none of us here ever deal with Windows? :-) I notice that no-one has yet mentioned that Windows does not do ntp, as Windows does not do time right, doesn't do timezones right and I strongly suspect can't even do dates right (this latter still unproven) Windows time servers need some magic Microsoft thing called ENTP which is in no way related to the ntp we all know and love It refuses to adjust time if you have a wrong date. timezone is set in your system I was thinking more along the lines of how Windows has no concept of UTC set in the hw clock and a local timezone, and how timezones are odd things like Harare/Pretoria instead of the official names like SAST GMT+2 as set by the scientific timekeeping community. How about daylight savings? Can Windows deal with that? Other than by just shoving the clock back and forward by an hour on the right days? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
Пятница, 26 апреля 2013, 22:54 +02:00 от Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: On 26/04/2013 22:46, the guard wrote: Пятница, 26 апреля 2013, 22:41 +02:00 от Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: On 26/04/2013 20:54, Paul Hartman wrote: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Nick Khamis sym...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Everyone, We are trying to sync our server's time with an accurate ntp server, and was wondering which of the many solutions are considered viable. I did see the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Time_Synchronization. Our services are quite time sensitive. I think the classic method is to use net-misc/ntp See the extensive article at http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/NTP for great examples and description. Do none of us here ever deal with Windows? :-) I notice that no-one has yet mentioned that Windows does not do ntp, as Windows does not do time right, doesn't do timezones right and I strongly suspect can't even do dates right (this latter still unproven) Windows time servers need some magic Microsoft thing called ENTP which is in no way related to the ntp we all know and love It refuses to adjust time if you have a wrong date. timezone is set in your system I was thinking more along the lines of how Windows has no concept of UTC set in the hw clock and a local timezone, and how timezones are odd things like Harare/Pretoria instead of the official names like SAST GMT+2 as set by the scientific timekeeping community. How about daylight savings? Can Windows deal with that? Other than by just shoving the clock back and forward by an hour on the right days? All I can say that XP didn't understand our polititians when they cancelled summer time daylight saving. btw I saw a good quote in this list. something like only a white man can believe that by tearing a blanket at the bottom and attaching it on the top he will make tha blanket longer
[gentoo-user] Re: Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 04:50:43PM +0800, Mark David Dumlao wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: And you are vastly overstating the desirability of having pulseaudio enforced on users without very good cause How much barefaced lying can you do in one sentence? 1) it's not enforced _on you_. USE=-pulse Not enforced on Gentoo, no, which is why many of us use it. But we're discussing pulseaudio in the wider ecosystem (you certainly are) which does affect us too. 2) bluetooth headset goes in, audio goes out is good cause. Yeah and if you need it all power to you: look you can install it real simply or it comes by default on some distros. What about the rest of us who either don't give a damn about audio beyond the speakers on our computer, with hifi TV et al separate, or are actually into quality audio, and use jack? See: you cannot predict the use-cases. By definition, you will not be present when the software is run by the end-user. So you have to learn humility, and let the user decide. Hence what was said before about software not imposing itself, especially when not in even use. One True Way inturgrated idiot-box crap doesn't allow that. It's the antithesis of Unix. And if you can't deal with the fact that Linux is a *nix, use something else instead of imposing layers of crap on the rest of us. Especially your dud spangly new ideas that are turds you want the rest of us to polish while you sell your enterprise distro based on everyone else's work. It's poisoning the software ecosystem. and seem to have underestimated how deep that rabbit hole goes. No I haven't. I have no idea how deep the complexity of pulseaudio is because I don't know how to use it. I don't know how to use it because it just works. snip But if I compare how well I learned to use grub vs pulseaudio, two things that I use everyday, it's clear that one of them was more successful in hiding the complexity from me before I used it successfully. HINT: it wasn't grub. Funny, I spent even less time learning to use the KDE artsd and it worked too. I never had any problems with it at all, yet I've heard of a lot of issues with pa, more worryingly to do with the mentality the developer imposes as a condition of working with him. I still got rid of it, and am much happier with my current, Lennartware-free, setup thanks. Must be something about what programs actually do, rather than just misleading analogies and invalid comparisons. If you actually talk like it matters what the programs do, rather than just making airy abstractions on what some ideal fetishized system should be like, you'll understand things better. It does no harm and might be useful for some is simply not a valid reason to enforce a package on all users, especially when said package is the latest johnny-come-lately from a wunderkind with a proven reputation for writing invasive code[1] Oh dear. I should've realized what this was really about. There aren't really any technical reasons behind this, are there? Just some good old fashioned Lennart hate boners. I have a perfect halloween campfire story for this group. The one where a malicious udev update gives a backdoor for He Who Must Not Be Named to install his LennartWare onto yor systems... Newsflash: it's called systemd and you can't get udev without it. Nor can you build udev separately, you must install all the requirements and build the full systemd package: they deliberately broke that. Even though systemd has nothing to do with udev: it's a complete layering violation. They have nfc about what not breaking userspace means. They tried to push binary logfiles in the kernel; they broke module-loading and blamed it on everyone else; and they designed a system with a race builtin, despite claiming loud and wide that they are the experts in the dynamic early userspace domain. Oh and let's not forget the wonderful decision to use XML in system space, plus the current nonsense about hw bus-ids being stable. But sure, these amateurs are just who we want writing system-critical code.. Smart businesses won't be so dumb. Nor will smart users. Good luck to the rest of you, you have my sympathy: I see your pain on IRC every day. -- #friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 26/04/2013 23:02, the guard wrote: I was thinking more along the lines of how Windows has no concept of UTC set in the hw clock and a local timezone, and how timezones are odd things like Harare/Pretoria instead of the official names like SAST GMT+2 as set by the scientific timekeeping community. How about daylight savings? Can Windows deal with that? Other than by just shoving the clock back and forward by an hour on the right days? All I can say that XP didn't understand our polititians when they cancelled summer time daylight saving. btw I saw a good quote in this list. something like only a white man can believe that by tearing a blanket at the bottom and attaching it on the top he will make tha blanket longer XP didn't understand our politicians either, but we are a special case amongst special cases. Nothing in this entire universe understands *our* politicians, so XP gets a free pass on that one here :-) And that's a funny joke, but not really accurate. Daylight savings is designed to have the big orange ball visible in the sky for the maximum amount of time whilst people are working at their daily 9 to 5. The day doesn't get any longer, you just shift the darkness part forwards and backwards. I wasn't born here in Africa and didn't spend primary school years here either. But I distinctly recall having to walk to school in the snow and in the dark to geet their before 9 o'clock. Not fun. DST would have helped. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 4/26/13, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/04/2013 19:11, Nick Khamis wrote: Thank you so much for your response, and I totally understand the effort vs. benefit challenge. However, is it really that much trouble/unstable to setup our own ntp server that syncs with our local isp, and have our internal network sync on it? No, it's not THAT much effort. You can get by with installing ntpd on a single machine, pointing it at the upstream time server and pointing all your clients to it. It's clearly recorded in the config file, you can't go wrong. It's understanding how this weird thing called time works that is the issue. Take for example leap seconds. urggg... The basic question I suppose is why do you want to do it this way? What do you feel you will gain by doing it yourself? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Hello Alan, Thank you so much for your time. Our voip cluster time always vary for some reason And with long distance, that could mean upwards to a dollar a call. Ah, OK. That changes things quite a bit. I have a little bit of experience with that - I work for a large ISP, we have a large VOIP department and we run a stratum 2 time server that serves most of the country. First things first: you can't just stick any old upstream ntp server in your config and walk away. You are then reliant on the quality of that upstream, and far too often other time servers operate on a good enough policy - if it's accurate to about a second, it's good enough (and for desktop users i.e. most ISP clients, it is good enough). I don't know how big your operation is, if you have budget I suggest you invest in a proper master time source that is GPS-driven. We have a Symmetricom (http://www.symmetricom.com) but it's a mature market with several vendors. Shop around, prices are less than you'd expect (about the same as a decent mid-range server and much less than Cisco's routers...) Weather can get in the way, so back up the device with a decent second upstream. I have a good one available run by the Science and Technology Research part of the Dept of Trade and Industry and the third option is all the other big ISPs around. Depending on your accuracy needs you could get away without the GPS unit and just use a good upstream, but I'd fight for the budget for it - tell management it puts control of billing back in your hands, they always fall for that one :-) So the summary would be that I reckon ntpd will do what you want as long as you chose good reliable time sources. With that in hand, the config is easy as rather well documented. Shout here ont he list if you need a hand with this when you come to deployment time -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com Any suggestions for a reliable, use that word cautiously ntp server. Requests are coming from canada. Was there not a project that dealt with setting up a network across the globe just for serving up NTP services? Did that marvelous idea die out? N.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:10:46 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: I wasn't born here in Africa and didn't spend primary school years here either. But I distinctly recall having to walk to school in the snow and in the dark to geet their before 9 o'clock. Not fun. DST would have helped. No it wouldn't - DST makes it darker in the morning. When I was about 11, the government experimented with using BST all year round. One of the reasons given for not doing it was that kids would have to go to school in the dark. -- Neil Bothwick Top Oxymorons Number 22: Childproof signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 04:34:03PM +0800, Mark David Dumlao wrote YES it is entirely about a few megabytes you don't like. A few megabytes that OTHER people choose to put on THEIR computers to NO effect on yours. Even your sig betrays your bias. I don't go around telling other people what religion / politics / OS libs / etc they should use. I don't really care about soft defaults since I run with USE='-*. But when unnecessary stuff is made into a *HARD WIRED DEOENDANCY*, I draw the line. What I fear is that if there is no yelling/screaming *NOW*, then stuff like systemd/pulseaudio/dbus etc will eventually become mandatory. At one point I was one of only a few people on this list *NOT* using HAL. BTW, those of you who have pam and dbus masked out, like me, please raise your hand. Speaking of dbus, my latest issue is with gnumeric spreadsheet, of all things. It seems that they're switching from gconf to GSettings, which apparently requires dbus. See https://developer.gnome.org/gio/unstable/tools.html I ran into this with the latest update of gnumeric. A couple of additional menu bars show up, which pushes the bottom of graphs and spreadsheets off the bottom of the screen. I can hide them each time I open the spreadsheet but they reappear next time I open the sheet. And while I'm at it, why does gnumeric-1.12.0-r1 now require ghostscript? I am seriously considering switching to openoffice. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 26/04/2013 22:46, the guard wrote: Пятница, 26 апреля 2013, 22:41 +02:00 от Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com: Do none of us here ever deal with Windows? :-) I notice that no-one has yet mentioned that Windows does not do ntp, as Windows does not do time right, doesn't do timezones right and I strongly suspect can't even do dates right (this latter still unproven) Windows time servers need some magic Microsoft thing called ENTP which is in no way related to the ntp we all know and love It refuses to adjust time if you have a wrong date. timezone is set in your system I was thinking more along the lines of how Windows has no concept of UTC set in the hw clock and a local timezone, and how timezones are odd things like Harare/Pretoria instead of the official names like SAST GMT+2 as set by the scientific timekeeping community. How about daylight savings? Can Windows deal with that? Other than by just shoving the clock back and forward by an hour on the right days? I've used windows for the past 25,000+ work hours at my job (I wish that were an exaggeration) in an all-Microsoft corporate environment. I dare not declare myself an expert in anything Windows so as not to encourage more of it. :) AFAIK the windows time service (w32time) does everything internally and between machines using UTC, but translates to/from local time for updating the hardware clock and the OS time. When daylight saving time happens it just changes the clock, though I have heard of some sites where the time change does not occur until the next time sync happens. If DST happens when the machine is powered off, it changes it at the next reboot (and usually pops up a little window to let you know what has happened). Sometimes if you reboot multiple times on a DST changeover day it can adjust the clock repeatedly... If you haven't installed Windows Updates or are using an unsupported version, your DST and time zone info may be outdated. For example, in the US about 10 years ago they changed the start and end of DST by a few weeks. Any devices using the old logic will be wrong for about a month out of the year. If someone manually fixes the time on their workstation, it will be correct until it changes itself and then it'll be wrong again. :) Also, being Windows, people tend to set the wrong time zone, don't check the use daylight saving box, choose Central America (continent) instead of Central US (country) time zone, etc. Then they send out meeting invitations in Outlook and the time gets shifted by the Exchange server and everybody shows up to a conference room an hour early, except for the person who organized the meeting, naturally. Time sync has been built into Windows since Win 2000, and machines who are part of a domain sync time with their domain controller using some proprietary protocol called NT5DS. If you have admin rights you can edit the registry and change it to use plain old NTP and sync with a regular NTP server. The DC can sync with other DCs or standard NTP server(s) over the internet. Home machines w/o a domain can set an NTP server in the date and time settings without messing with the registry, I think. (I don't use Windows at home.) The time sync service by default changes the time gradually, taking up to an hour to make the adjustment when there is a difference. Not sure if there is an upper limit where it refuses to adjust if it's too wrong. You can also force an immediate sync in those cases. There is a multi-purpose time utility built-in to windows called w32tm.exe that lets you do various time operations, giving some insight into the way Windows sees the world. I can do things like: C:\Windows\system32w32tm /tz Time zone: Current:TIME_ZONE_ID_DAYLIGHT Bias: 360min (UTC=LocalTime+Bias) [Standard Name:Central Standard Time Bias:0min Date:(M:11 D:1 DoW:0)] [Daylight Name:Central Daylight Time Bias:-60min Date:(M:3 D:2 DoW:0)] The interesting part there is UTC=LocalTime+Bias. So that seems to be how they handle that. The other lines show what it knows about when DST kicks in and the additional bias. C:\Windows\system32w32tm /query /status Leap Indicator: 0(no warning) Stratum: 4 (secondary reference - syncd by (S)NTP) Precision: -6 (15.625ms per tick) Root Delay: 0.2329102s Root Dispersion: 0.3298777s ReferenceId: 0x0A010046 (source IP: 10.1.0.70) Last Successful Sync Time: 4/26/2013 10:37:44 AM Source: DC1.example.com Poll Interval: 15 (32768s) Tells me about the time sync status on my workstation and info about the last sync. C:\Windows\system32w32tm /stripchart /computer:time-a.nist.gov /samples:10 Tracking time-a.nist.gov [129.6.15.28:123]. Collecting 10 samples. The current time is 4/26/2013 4:08:03 PM. 16:08:03 d:+00.0467925s o:-00.2902514s [ *| ] 16:08:05 d:+00.0623842s o:-00.2958840s [ *|
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: Hi, Canek. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 02:09:46PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: Hi Alan. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:02:38PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: [snip] Anytime a free software project drops support for something, it forces its users to make choices. Yes, force. I don't think that's true, since we are not paying anyone to do the work (well, at least for sure I'm not paying anyone to do anything). They (the developers) don't owe us *anything*. In a sense, no. But in another very important sense, yes. Without that sense of duty, of obligation, on the part of developers over the last few decades, GNU, Linux, X, BSD, ... would scarcely rate as more than toys. That's your subjective analysis. I would say the reason is because the developers took the technically correct decisions. [ . ] If you want to get into morals, this will become a religious argument, and sorry but I'm not interested in that. Fair enough! The prime one is to support their users. No; the prime one is to do their jobs. Most of them are employed by several of the available Open Source supporting companies; their responsibilities is to do the job they are being paid to do. If they are hobbyist, then their prime responsibility is to do whatever the hell they want to (and gets accepted in a community project). Again, fair enough. But that's just as religious a viewpoint as my own. O yeah? Ask the ones that need to pay the rent. You'll surely have noticed that what gets up the noses of people on this mailing list most is when support for reasonable configurations gets dropped. Witness all the recent trouble over eth0, for example. What problem? I use NetworkManager in desktop and laptop; there is no problem there. I read the instructions in my media center and servers: no problems there. I don't particularly like the new funny names, but I don't write the code, and the fruits from it I get for free, so I don't complain about it. Some Gentooers had problems over this change. I didn't have problems as such, but the time spent not having these problems could, I feel, have been better spent. If you were serious about this exponential growth, how on earth could, e.g., the Linux kernel or Emacs, both with thousands of options[*], possibly get tested anywhere near acceptably? [*] 12,666 in Linux 3.7.10, 7,510 in vanilla Emacs 24.3. Because they have enough integration testers. They have enough interested users to do the required testing; the kernel and Emacs is oriented towards technical apt users. The stated goal of the GNOME project is that even my grandmother could use it. I understand what you're saying. In the limit, this tight integration will lead to a system barely capable of being customised. It will be as inflexible as MS Windows always has been. Will your GM want to use such a system? I sure hope so. I don't seeinflexibility. I see set a stack where the best option is chosen by the ones writing the code. [ ] What about the needs of those high-end audio users, for example, who need jack? There are several success stories about mixing PA with Jack; you can Google them. I don't see the problem. I'm not an expert on jack, but I gather it's high-endedness implies very low latency, for example. Feeding a signal through pulseaudio as well would negate the whole purpose of jack. Maybe. I think (I could be wrong) that you can piggyback PA from JACK (so JACK has the control). That was what I understood. What about those, like me, with audio problems, where the need exists to strip a system down so as to isolate those problems? As I said below: if PA has problems, they need to be fixed. Did you report the bugs? I don't even know where the bug is. It's somewhere in my audio. It might be in Firefox 17.0.5. It might be in pulseaudio, though having been able to remove it, I doubt it. It might be in ALSA. My point is, in a tightly integrated system, my chances of fixing the problem would be that much slimmer. I don't experience the problem in my fossilised mdev system from last summer. Well, that helps. And that the problem: with loose integrated systems, a lot of people tend to fix things by actually workarounding them, so the real problem (a bug in ALSA, PA, or the aps) gets unfixed. We need to zero in the real bugs and *fix them*. It's not your responsibility to fix the problem; but (and specially if you believe in moral obligations) reporting the bugs is. If PA has bugs in some configuration, those bugs need to be fixed; the solution (in the GNOME developers view) is not to remove PA, since the goal of the project is to cover *ALL* use cases. pulseaudio is a server component - gnome is an
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 09:38:26PM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote When trying to hunt down a thread to let a guy on the OpenBSD list know about Gnome 3.8 hard deps on pulseaudio. I came across this sarcasm about a comment by Lennart from a fairly prominent dev that adds to the idea of arrogance and ignorance possibly being a contributing factor. Lennart is a funny, funny man, go check the avahi code to see how nice it is. When working on Avahi I learned a lot about the complexities of safely and reliably running and maintaining system services, and about securing them as much as possible, which is particularly important for network facing services like Avahi. I implemented a lot of pretty nifty features in this area in Avahi. For example, Avahi is still pretty much the *only daemon* on a standard Linux install that chroot()s itself by default. ___ I have 2 questions regarding software development... 1) Is the Linux Foundation paying Steve Ballmer to destroy Windows? 2) Is Microsoft paying Lennart Poettering and Redhat to destroy Linux? They both seem to be trying their hardest. In addition to systemd/pulseadio/avahi, he and Sievers proposed a http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/11/23/1733236/secure-syslog-replacement-proposed binary-format syslog. The flak they got was so fierce that even Redhat's influence couldn't push it through. We know what we Gentoo users think of Lennart. What does he think of us? See http://lalists.stanford.edu/lad/2009/06/0191.html So what does that mean for you? If you don't do RT development or doing RT development only for embedded cases, or if you are a Gentoo-Build-It-All-Myself-Because-It-Is-So-Much-Faster-And-Need-To-Reinvent-The-Wheel-Daily-And-Configurating-Things-Is-Awesome-Guy then it doesn't mean anything for you. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 04:50:43PM +0800, Mark David Dumlao wrote On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: And you are vastly overstating the desirability of having pulseaudio enforced on users without very good cause How much barefaced lying can you do in one sentence? 1) it's not enforced _on you_. USE=-pulse Tell that to GNOME users as of v3.8. My sig takes on more meaning, 2) bluetooth headset goes in, audio goes out is good cause. For users of bluetooth headsets, maybe. But, not for desktop users who suddenly start experiencing audio problems. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] PosgreSQL - pg_hba.conf localhost access only
J == Joseph syscon...@gmail.com writes: J In my pg_hba.conf I have: J localall all trust J hostall all 127.0.0.1/32trust J I was under impression that this is configuration is for localhost 127.0.0.1 access only. That tells pg how to authenticate users using the unix domain socket and users using tcp over the loopback interface. To limit the listen_address, edit postgresql.conf in that directory. You want to have: listen_addresses = 'localhost' or: listen_addresses = '127.0.0.1' to prevent any access attempts from any non-localhost ip addresses. -JimC -- James Cloos cl...@jhcloos.com OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 2:38 AM, Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de wrote: If GNOME has to support PA and non-pa systems, they need to code, test, support and bug-fix 2 different sets of of systems. If they need to support ConsoleKit and logind, the number grows to 4 (PA/ck, PA/logind, non-PA/ck, non-PA/logind). With 3 different optional requirements, it's 8 sets of systems. With 4, is 16. With n, it's 2^n. That's exponential growth, which in CS is always no-no. WADR, that is simply false. With features which interact chaotically with eachother, yes, you have exponential growth. With distinct, self-contained features, each one is merely an incremental test effort. ALSA and pulseaudio are self-contained, and are also well tested in their own right. Only integration needs testing. If you were serious about this exponential growth, how on earth could, e.g., the Linux kernel or Emacs, both with thousands of options[*], possibly get tested anywhere near acceptably? I just have to point out that this is a misunderstanding. Neither Linux nor Emacs get the whole shebang of complete formal testing of all code paths. What they have is an informal let the users participate in the beta, which is basically the _opposite_ of testing. (Well yes, we also use the English word testing to describe what's happening, but it means something else). That GNOME has a different opinion on their approach to testing such things is their opinion. After all, they're a _desktop environment_, and their users are _regular users_, they have an entirely different dynamic on beta testing from, oh I don't know, an OS kernel. But hey, the source is there; feel free to patch whatever needs to be patched in GNOME (and probably GStreamer) so it doesn't require PA. Just be certain that those patches will be rejected by upstream, for the reasons stated above. Making minor changes to free software is impracticable on a casual basis. Only forking a project can do this. You know this full well. BULLSHIT. _EVERY_ _MAJOR_ _DISTRIBUTION_ DOES THIS. ALL THE TIME. Even Gentoo. Heck, the whole point of ebuilds is to make this easy to do. Case on point. For more than 5 years now, team wine has been stubbornly refusing to ship a pulseaudio plugin, even when there was wde clamor within its userbase for one and 2 maintainers voluntarily stepped up with out of tree patches. Said out of tree patches have made their way into every major distro. And eventually, wine team wine bit the bullet and admitted they should have. http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10495 Take a look at the files/ subdir of almost every ebuild you have and you'll notice that there are patches in it. -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[x] social Response needed: [ ] yes [ ] up to you [x] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [x] none
[gentoo-user] {OT} laptops for a developing country (Vanuatu)
My wife and I recently visited Vanuatu (island of Santo) and fell in love with it. We got to know some locals pretty well and everybody is pining for laptops. Internet service is becoming widely available due to Digicel and TVL cell phone signals but I didn't meet anyone with a real smartphone. I promised to return with laptops and I'd like to make good on that. Which ultra low-cost but functional laptops or netbooks would you choose for this? I'm looking into OLPC but I'm not sure how that works. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Yuri K. Shatroff yks-...@yandex.ru wrote: Thanks, it really doesn't look like forcing. On the higher level, there must be some politics going on; that's also not forcing, but politics. On the lower level (that of users) one's always got the worst case to demonstrate there's no forcing. But why not go the best case? It's a big mistake to think that developing software is about writing code; NO! it's about communication. The arrogance of some posters in this thread is that they think because I've never heard of it, it didn't happen. Newsflash, you're not omniscient. FACT of the matter is: pulseaudio's purpose was well-communicated by the original designer. Its adoption by major distributions was openly announced and widely discussed by the people of the relevant teams. /run was communicated to and independently agreed on by the teams of all major distros. /usr's merge and the rationale behind it was publicly announced. systemd's design documents and documentation are all out in the open... Just because you don't like it and avoid his blog like plague, doesn't mean they aren't talking. Or by communication, do you mean something else? Like get users to vote on every color and doodad of the system? Because that's not how open source works. Remember Linus' informal title? Benevolent _Dictator_. Open source does not mean democracy. It simply and exactly means that you can choose to be free from their control if you wanted. What more should they do? Go to your house and offer to fix your PC for you? That's just entitlement. -- This email is:[ ] actionable [ ] fyi[x] social Response needed: [ ] yes [ ] up to you [x] no Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate[ ] soon [x] none
Re: [gentoo-user] PosgreSQL - pg_hba.conf localhost access only
On 04/26/13 20:25, James Cloos wrote: J == Joseph syscon...@gmail.com writes: J In my pg_hba.conf I have: J local all all trust J hostall all 127.0.0.1/32trust J I was under impression that this is configuration is for localhost 127.0.0.1 access only. That tells pg how to authenticate users using the unix domain socket and users using tcp over the loopback interface. To limit the listen_address, edit postgresql.conf in that directory. You want to have: listen_addresses = 'localhost' or: listen_addresses = '127.0.0.1' to prevent any access attempts from any non-localhost ip addresses. -JimC -- James Cloos cl...@jhcloos.com OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 Thanks James for your help. I'll explain what am doing and trying to accomplish. On my sever (local desktop box) I run postgresql and have access to all databases. I'm using sql-ledger program, which uses firefox via apache to access postgresql. In apache I can easily control which IP has access to my box, this is not a problem. Postgresql has a user sql-ledger and I don't wont to create new users. sql-ledger has access to two databases. On localhost (where postgresql is running) I want to have access to both databases (eg. db1 and db2) but I want to limit access from other computers on the network to only one database. Is it possible? I've tried various combination in pg_hba.conf but nothing works. The first line line in pg_hba.conf (below) will allow connection to both databases (db1 and db2) to a box that I'll allow via apache to access postgresql. local all sql-ledger trust the line below will have no effect host clinic sql-ledger 192.168.139.1/32 trust How do I limit IP 192.168.139.1 to only one database and have full access from localhost to both databases. Thank you for your help! -- Joseph
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} laptops for a developing country (Vanuatu)
On Saturday 27 April 2013 06:33:24 AM IST, Grant wrote: My wife and I recently visited Vanuatu (island of Santo) and fell in love with it. We got to know some locals pretty well and everybody is pining for laptops. Internet service is becoming widely available due to Digicel and TVL cell phone signals but I didn't meet anyone with a real smartphone. I promised to return with laptops and I'd like to make good on that. Which ultra low-cost but functional laptops or netbooks would you choose for this? I'm looking into OLPC but I'm not sure how that works. - Grant I heard Chromebooks are cheap, but I don't know what's their exact cost / feasibility / etc. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On Friday 26 April 2013 22:43:10 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:10:46 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: I wasn't born here in Africa and didn't spend primary school years here either. But I distinctly recall having to walk to school in the snow and in the dark to geet their before 9 o'clock. Not fun. DST would have helped. No it wouldn't - DST makes it darker in the morning. When I was about 11, the government experimented with using BST all year round. One of the reasons given for not doing it was that kids would have to go to school in the dark. ... and the children's accident rate in Scotland shot up. And what is this idea of saving daylight? Only an American could conceive of such a nonsense (I hope). -- Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] {OT} laptops for a developing country (Vanuatu)
My wife and I recently visited Vanuatu (island of Santo) and fell in love with it. We got to know some locals pretty well and everybody is pining for laptops. Internet service is becoming widely available due to Digicel and TVL cell phone signals but I didn't meet anyone with a real smartphone. I promised to return with laptops and I'd like to make good on that. Which ultra low-cost but functional laptops or netbooks would you choose for this? I'm looking into OLPC but I'm not sure how that works. - Grant I heard Chromebooks are cheap, but I don't know what's their exact cost / feasibility / etc. I think the problem there is a Chromebook needs to be online in order to do much of anything, and the connection needs to be fast in order to make them very functional. Plus most people are paying by the MB in Vanuatu and a Chromebook must use a fair amount of data even on a fast connection. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Removing pulseaudio
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: We know what we Gentoo users think of Lennart. Speak for yourself, Walter. Many Gentoo users, like me and many others than don't participate in the shouting contest this list sometimes is, don't think bad of Lennart, and we happily use the projects where he participates. Like the kernel, for example. Please don't talk like you represent anyone but yourself. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 27/04/13 09:20, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 22:43:10 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:10:46 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: I wasn't born here in Africa and didn't spend primary school years here either. But I distinctly recall having to walk to school in the snow and in the dark to geet their before 9 o'clock. Not fun. DST would have helped. No it wouldn't - DST makes it darker in the morning. When I was about 11, the government experimented with using BST all year round. One of the reasons given for not doing it was that kids would have to go to school in the dark. ... and the children's accident rate in Scotland shot up. And what is this idea of saving daylight? Only an American could conceive of such a nonsense (I hope). I wish it were so ... every now and again they decide to try it - usually because one lot of pollies want to get the drop on the other and/or distract the sheeple with an issue zdump -v Australia/Perth The pollies (bless their little black hearts) decided to implement a trial with only a few weeks notice! - Linux/Unix had the updates within a day of the specs, distros followed with formal a couple of weeks later. MS took 12 months and exchange calendars where I work corrupted and had the be manually reentered (and then defaulted to the Ulan Bator timezone in Mongolia as they couldnt get windows to do it locally - yes they have a MS support contract and its a mainly MS shop). Same going back ... dont know what it cost in lost productivity, mistakes and other problems but it wasn't small. After the three year trial the pollies went to a referendum and said ok, you have had 3 years and don't you like it now your used to it? ... and it was thrown out yet again :) Even once the fixes were in windows, each change point was problematic for some/many in IT. BillK
Re[2]: [gentoo-user] Server system date synchronizaion
On 04/27/13 09:20, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Friday 26 April 2013 22:43:10 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:10:46 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: I wasn't born here in Africa and didn't spend primary school years here either. But I distinctly recall having to walk to school in the snow and in the dark to geet their before 9 o'clock. Not fun. DST would have helped. No it wouldn't - DST makes it darker in the morning. When I was about 11, the government experimented with using BST all year round. One of the reasons given for not doing it was that kids would have to go to school in the dark. ... and the children's accident rate in Scotland shot up. And what is this idea of saving daylight? Only an American could conceive of such a nonsense (I hope). And the curtains will fade quicker with all that extra saved sunlight. And has anyone thought of the dairy cows? Farmers get up at 4am to milk them, but the cows will get confused because they don't have watches so when the farmer turns up at 4am, DST, the cows won't be there and on it goes, drivel from the great unwashed masses who can't wrap their head around the concept of shifting the clock 1 hour. Get over it and enjoy the extra hour in the evening. But then again I'm in Australia where we have things to enjoy as distinct from those who appear to be in the UK and complaining :) And lets be realistic about childrens accident rates due to daylight savings, hasn't anyone heard of Darwinian theory Regards, Andrew
Re: [gentoo-user] open-vm-tools install fails because I have modules disabled??
On 4/26/2013 15:48, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 26/04/2013 18:54, Jarry wrote: On 26-Apr-13 18:41, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 26/04/2013 18:37, Jarry wrote: On 26-Apr-13 18:11, Tanstaafl wrote: compile fails with lots of ...error No Module support in this kernel. Please configure with CONFIG_MODULES Please tell me that I'm not going to have to enable modules just so I can use the vmware tools?? Yes you are. If you want to use vm-tools (open or vmware), you have to enable kernel modules. And also some strange options (i.e. vmware-graphics). And as I told you previously, updating to new kernel is really pain in a**. That's why I got rid of the whole vm-stuff and I'm happy without it... Are you aware of module-rebuild rebuild? Yes I am. Believe me or not, but this did not work. Nice little scriplet that reduces all that pain to running one single command after installing a new built kernel. I mean there is a problem with new kernel version. Not sure but I suppose open-vm-tools sources are installed into kernel sources tree. And if you install new kernel, open-vm-tools sources are not moved to the new kernel-sources tree. Whenever I installed new kernel-sources and re-created link /usr/src/linux pointing to the new sources, I had to re-emerge open-vm-tools too... I don't use open-vm-tools so I don't know how they work. I do know vmware and virtualbox's stuff though - basically the same as any out-of-tree module package. The ebuild takes care of the nitty-gritty and builds the modules against whatever /usr/src/linux points to. Is open-vm-tools the same? Actually, it's open-vm-tools-kmod that builds the kernel module. open-vm-tools is the userspace components that do not have to be rebuilt after a kernel upgrade. Otherwise, yes, that's exactly how it works. Deploying a new kernel version is a complex affair anyway. You have to configure the thing, carefully look out for new and changed config options, run FOUR make commands, edit grub.conf and do a lot of testing. Now you have to add one extra tiny little command to the end. It's one little bullet point in your process. It isn't really all that complicated, and there are plenty of tools to help you automate most of it (i.e. genkernel). The one command you have to run at the end is:: emerge -1av /lib/modules Portage will determine what files in there belong to packages it manages and rebuild them. It doesn't take all that long. Surely you can't be claiming that is a huge problem for you? -- ♫Dustin http://dustin.hatch.name/
