Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Tue, February 18, 2014 15:37, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:54 AM, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: As I do not have systemd installed on any machine, I can't check the man-pages. They are online [1]. Useful, but not necessary for this discussion. But, if that is the only method to get parseable text from journalctl, then that is less then useless. I only put that option as tongue-in-cheek, since someone complained about not being able to cat the logs. Many more options are available. I see this option as a easter-egg without any real value. How many of these useless code-paths are implemented? Can these be disabled at compile time? I would expect an export option providing the same detail level as I currently find in /var/log/messages. A timestamp is a minimum required for logging system output. Everybody agrees with that; that's why the journal supports a lot of formatting options. From [2]: SNIPPED man-page So you can have the default; journalctl -b | head: -- Logs begin at Tue 2013-09-24 13:39:03 CDT, end at Tue 2014-02-18 08:28:44 CST. -- Feb 10 09:50:37 centurion systemd-journal[371]: Runtime journal is using 712.0K (max 198.0M, leaving 297.1M of free 1.9G, current limit 198.0M). Feb 10 09:50:37 centurion systemd-journal[371]: Runtime journal is using 716.0K (max 198.0M, leaving 297.1M of free 1.9G, current limit 198.0M). SNIPPED log examples See if you can easily do that with rsyslog or syslog-ng. Not easily, but I do not see the point, beyond as a nice gimmick. Same question applies, can I disable these code-paths during compile-time? I have log-parsing scripts that check for unexpected log-entries which expect syslog-standard logs. I do not see the need to have to spend time to change working code to be able to handle different formats. Additionally, the use of tail -f and grep allows me to check the logs real-time for debugging purposes. Having to use a seperate tool that converts some proprietary binary format to human readable/scriptable single-line logs makes no sense. It all sounds too much like the MS Windows Event-viewer to me. Too many events with no usefull logging information (And I am referring to OS-level messages as to why default services are not starting) -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Tue, February 18, 2014 18:12, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Andrew Savchenko birc...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Every decent project has QA and unit tests one way or another. But the larger project is, the more bugs it has. And I do not want bugs in PID 1, that's why it should be small and sound, not bloated (even with some components split as separate binaries) and broken by design. Of course the larger a project is the *potential* number of bugs increases, but so what? With enough developers, users and testers, all bugs are *potentially* squashed. Agreed, but I know of enough large projects with large development teams and even more users that don't get the most basic bugs fixed. Quantity is not equivalent to Quality. Kernel has mature error correction infrastructure (Oops handling) and much wider community. And systemd has a *much* wider community than any other init system. So it can handle a larger code base. Incorrect. How many people use systemd as opposed to SysV Init? SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains about 13 000 lines, systemd â about 200 000 lines. If you take into account the thousands of shell code that SysV and OpenRC need to fill the functionality of systemd, they use even more. The shell-code is proven to work though and provided with most of the software. Where it isn't provided, it can be easily created. I have seen (and used) complex start-up scripts for large software implementations which complex dependencies. Fortunately, later versions of those software packages have fixed that mess to a large extend, but I wonder how well systemd unit-files can work in such an environment. Having sockets created prior to service start will not work as components will fail due to time-outs, leaving even a bigger mess. If that code will fail, this wouldn't be critical at system level. Thus scope of fatal error is limited. Also in systemd, since most of its code is not critical (again; logind, datetimed, localed, etc., failing, has no impact whatsoever on the rest of the system). I understand the usecase for logind, but what is the point of a daemon to supply the time (datetimed)? Is this a full replacement for ntpd? And what does localed do? That's configured once in the environment and should be handled using environment variables. -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 01:04:14 -0600, Daniel Campbell wrote: Or to create a non-systemd profile :) For such a profile to be legitimate, systemd would have to be chosen as the default. Quite the opposite, to have a separate systemd profile would mean that systemd was not the default, otherwise it would be in the default profile. Not that defaults really matter with Gentoo, you have a systemd profile and an openrc profile, who gives a toss which is default when you have a simple to make choice? Gentoo is one of the last bastions of choice available to GNU/Linux users and it would create a complete shitstorm if systemd were pushed on Gentoo's users. How is putting systemd setting in a profile that a user has to consciously choose to use forcing anything on anyone? Profiles are the essence of choice but it appears you only want the choices you approve of to be available. -- Neil Bothwick You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 01:04:14 -0600 Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: On 02/18/2014 12:14 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Andrew Savchenko birc...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:22:23 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Yet again, I respect ones right to use whatever one wants, but I ask to respect mine as well. That's why I propose a separate systemd profile for those willing to use it. Then write. Just be aware that to write a systemd profile, you need to use systemd. Or to create a non-systemd profile :) That's the best response I've read in, like, many years. That's perfect; I'm 100% behind it. I even volunteer to help (with testing) to anyone going for this. You guys create a systemd-sucks-we-dont-want-it profile, and I promise to give you guys a hand. Make a profile that frees users from using systemd, and I think even several Gentoo developers will get behind that. Now we are talking; this has been my whole point the whole time. Everybody that don't want to use systemd; help this idea, and if there are enough of you, you'll pulled through. Regards. For such a profile to be legitimate, systemd would have to be chosen as the default. Gentoo is one of the last bastions of choice available to GNU/Linux users and it would create a complete shitstorm if systemd were pushed on Gentoo's users. You're just trying to push systemd on one of the few distros that doesn't use it by default. Do you hang out with John Paul Adrian Glaubitz? He's a Debian developer who has a long-running history of pushing systemd as well. There is nothing wrong with systemd as a choice, but to push it as the default is ridiculous. systemd can have its own profile while the rest of the world goes on without it. Everybody wins. For all this talk about technical details, nobody seems to notice the marketing A few people including myself have noted it earlier. that's going on and frankly it disgusts me. And me too.
[gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
For a week or so I see flickering applications here. I thought it would help to upgrade nvidia-drivers but even todays update didn't help. I rebuilt thunderbird-24.3.0 and nvidia-drivers-334.16-r7 ... I also didn't find anything matching at bgo. This is gnome-3.10, I know, masked stuff ... but it worked without a problem until this. Other windows like terminals or browsers (chrome, opera) are not affected ... but in thunderbird I get flickering message windows which is rather annoying. Sorry, I don't know how to describe it in a better way. Does anyone have an idea? Some mozilla-specific problem ;-) ? Stefan
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 02/19/2014 09:06 AM, Gevisz wrote: On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 01:04:14 -0600 Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: On 02/18/2014 12:14 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Andrew Savchenko birc...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:22:23 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Yet again, I respect ones right to use whatever one wants, but I ask to respect mine as well. That's why I propose a separate systemd profile for those willing to use it. Then write. Just be aware that to write a systemd profile, you need to use systemd. Or to create a non-systemd profile :) That's the best response I've read in, like, many years. That's perfect; I'm 100% behind it. I even volunteer to help (with testing) to anyone going for this. You guys create a systemd-sucks-we-dont-want-it profile, and I promise to give you guys a hand. Make a profile that frees users from using systemd, and I think even several Gentoo developers will get behind that. Now we are talking; this has been my whole point the whole time. Everybody that don't want to use systemd; help this idea, and if there are enough of you, you'll pulled through. Regards. For all this talk about technical details, nobody seems to notice the marketing A few people including myself have noted it earlier. that's going on and frankly it disgusts me. And me too. I have to confess that it does feel very evangelistic the approach from folks pushing systemd. perhaps it is just because for some it has been four years of looking at new ways of doing things, whilst others are just realising now how different it is. I saw an interesting blog post [1] that basically tried to convince directly gentoo devs. it was interesting because of this comment: snip *Simon* September 26, 2013 at 2:58 am https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-756 Yes, I think you’re dead on, there. It’s not that Gnome depends on systemd – but it’s increasingly dependent on features that are only provided by systemd. The example of OpenRC not behaving according to GDM’s assumptions is a perfect illustration of that. It’s dependent not on systemd, but on something that for practical purposes is indistinguishable from systemd /snip the difficulty is that without knowing what features are required but assumed to be there it becomes very difficult to build something the has the API that logind or others might be requiring.an update of gnome might require a new feature that is hot off the presses, and until it breaks an openrc-logind system no one is aware of that requirement. the API does seem to be online [2], albeit updated 30days ago; i can't comment if this is up to date enough or not. I think the argument on the blog page is a bit disingenuous too - essentially implying that if you want gnome then you must have logind, and if you want logind you must supply the features supplied by systemd: but to get a list of the features required is _your_ problem: go through the gnome source code to find out. these kinds of things are what folks are taking umbrage against. I'm also a little confused over the socket matrix feature. I think it's very clever to be negotiating and buffering socket and mounts to services that need them, but I haven't seen a good technical argument as to why this is required. From my perspective i see it as xinet.d for unix sockets and well, is anyone using xinet.d on a production server? Hopefuly someone can enlighten me? also what happens if the socket arbitrator dies ? not trying to troll here, just my main point is that the communication between systemd supporters seems to be more of an issue than the possibility of change. thanks guys [1] https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/ [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: For a week or so I see flickering applications here. I thought it would help to upgrade nvidia-drivers but even todays update didn't help. I rebuilt thunderbird-24.3.0 and nvidia-drivers-334.16-r7 ... I also didn't find anything matching at bgo. This is gnome-3.10, I know, masked stuff ... but it worked without a problem until this. Other windows like terminals or browsers (chrome, opera) are not affected ... but in thunderbird I get flickering message windows which is rather annoying. Sorry, I don't know how to describe it in a better way. Does anyone have an idea? Some mozilla-specific problem ;-) ? Stefan I don't recall upgrading my Nvidia drives with the last update but Firefox did upgrade. I notice some weird stuff going on to but not sure of the cause yet. It may be Firefox since that seems to be all that is affected here. All the other programs work fine. I don't use Thunderbird here. You may not be alone on this at least. Dale :-) :-) -- I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
Am 19.02.2014 11:27, schrieb Dale: I don't recall upgrading my Nvidia drives with the last update but Firefox did upgrade. I notice some weird stuff going on to but not sure of the cause yet. It may be Firefox since that seems to be all that is affected here. All the other programs work fine. I don't use Thunderbird here. You may not be alone on this at least. Dale :-) :-) ;-) just found something around azure ... but it is disabled here already: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=929053 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=928727 ... although I don't see black rectangles, it's more some kind of hopping lines when I type this message (for example) Seems as if the updating of the window does not work ok (when scrolling longer messages etc)
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/19/2014 03:02 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 01:04:14 -0600, Daniel Campbell wrote: Or to create a non-systemd profile :) For such a profile to be legitimate, systemd would have to be chosen as the default. Quite the opposite, to have a separate systemd profile would mean that systemd was not the default, otherwise it would be in the default profile. Not that defaults really matter with Gentoo, you have a systemd profile and an openrc profile, who gives a toss which is default when you have a simple to make choice? Gentoo is one of the last bastions of choice available to GNU/Linux users and it would create a complete shitstorm if systemd were pushed on Gentoo's users. How is putting systemd setting in a profile that a user has to consciously choose to use forcing anything on anyone? Profiles are the essence of choice but it appears you only want the choices you approve of to be available. Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly. Logically, a non systemd profile would necessitate either a systemd profile, or require the default to already ship systemd. I hadn't considered the prior existence of systemd profiles, which we currently have, so afaict the issue is mostly moot. Choices are great until the existence of other choices infringes on mine. Profiles prevent that, so I have no problem with systemd profiles. The problem lies with evangelists who aren't happy with systemd being *a* choice. They want systemd to be *the* choice, *the* default. That is what I take issue with. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTBIi7AAoJEJUrb08JgYgHducH/2VLDbRimgiZ1rM404CjIDwy nl5dCdNcu6XtXt/q5zxY9zVUyYQtGCZmZxT1s41xT0NpYlMv2mo++tASuZwI5tye 1bzjzd9wGPwYwqTgrWgfusH170zWURaTKXwvTAgzZowKR++MXr918HtDiHzIJtpR QjSBvMHK3TXFe1dSQKwHFYqJ/uhx1sGTsKh7tDGdUIknXB0oaVSvuzZAlzy+2GMV g4x189EVO46kuOSXkBWobFGVwbYSttADg97Wgol55NZiyKPGaqioHKJoLeUYVlCt NR4L76APyUHXBqdfk+/9clPHOg3x7XJuo/cjluTjC2yDvezWpojEUJKgNAZ0fZ8= =jg5F -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Tue, 18 Feb 2014 22:53:12 +0400 the the.gu...@mail.ru wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/18/14 17:56, Gevisz wrote: On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 23:30:42 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Gevisz gev...@gmail.com wrote: [ snip ] How can you be sure if something is large enough if, as you say below, you do not care about probabilities? By writing correct code? No, by arguing that fixing bugs in a 200K line program is as easy as fixing a bug in 20 10K line programs. It is just not true, just the opposite. SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains about 13 000 lines, systemd — about 200 000 lines. If you take into account the thousands of shell code that SysV and OpenRC need to fill the functionality of systemd, they use even more. Also, again, systemd have a lot of little binaries, many of them optional. The LOC of PID 1 is actually closer to SysV (although still bigger). Even assuming systemd code is as mature as sysvinit or openrc (though I doubt this) you can calculate probabilities of segfaults yourself easily. I don't care about probabilities; If you do not care (= do not now anything) about probabilities (and mathematics, in general), you just unable to understand that debugging a program with 200K lines of code take 20!/(1!)^20 more time than debugging of 20 different programs with 10K lines of code. You can try to calculate that number yourself but I quite sure that if the latter can take, say, 20 days, the former can take millions of years. It is all the probability! Or, to be more precise, combinatorics. My PhD thesis (which I will defend in a few weeks) is in computer science, specifically computational geometry and combinatorics. It is even more shameful for you to not understand such a simple facts from elementary probability theory (which is mostly based on combinatorics). TBH I don't understand your estimate. Where did permutations come from? are you comparing all the different combinations of lines of code? I just wanted to convey that, if an involved program is n times longer, than another one, it does not, in general, true that it will take only n times more time to find a bug. The dependence here would be nonlinear and with much more steep growth than the linear one, just because all the possible ways to go wrong grows proportional to permutations, not necessary of lines but at least of some other units whose number is roughly proportional to the number of lines. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJTA6wWAAoJEK64IL1uI2ha5nIH/iUl2VNVAabzJzRJzC29zmWg t7KwGcfrtx2D40N7n4yM4LB7VBmnyoQ6+Iroh/uk3S33S/YK/5igN8UfuhvV+lvU 85X3T3RE3oK3kURLq68bb4Ri2zLFQ8y1rQdrrUr9ABzy+F4Xfo+W4t+lLsHSQ+dY f4F7ByfJAHwh9OziFKh2/qwLj4z0Trv8AzZZhP8M29kTNWEWGyo5rGg8vRqm8Klm kHR3RvvTdV4AgYGHqxdtrO7qpB50VXZA8ihzl7lbmsBJj3pWBo1osFNWNP82yy7r s4hev5QrCpgOlEebtYi/noX8Vxx335SUirGCgjN/W9xhIwt3jfMqRes6zD+bi7A= =F5to -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 04:34:35 -0600, Daniel Campbell wrote: How is putting systemd setting in a profile that a user has to consciously choose to use forcing anything on anyone? Profiles are the essence of choice but it appears you only want the choices you approve of to be available. Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly. Logically, a non systemd profile would necessitate either a systemd profile, or require the default to already ship systemd. I hadn't considered the prior existence of systemd profiles, which we currently have, so afaict the issue is mostly moot. We already have non-systemd profiles. Until recently that is all we had. Choices are great until the existence of other choices infringes on mine. Profiles prevent that, so I have no problem with systemd profiles. The problem lies with evangelists who aren't happy with systemd being *a* choice. They want systemd to be *the* choice, *the* default. That is what I take issue with. Why are you so concerned about the default, not that anyone in this thread has suggested making systemd the default, not even Canek? If you cannot use eselect profile set, Gentoo is not for you anyway? The handbook tells you to select a profile quite early in the installation, there is no default - portage complain loudly if you haven't chosen a profile, so I fail to see how anyone can force systemd (or openrc for that matter) on users when the choice must be made. There are technical arguments for and against systemd, which is why this thread was started, rhetoric about forcing default profiles on people when there is no such thing as a default profile only serve to cloud the real issues. -- Neil Bothwick System halted - hit any Microsoft employee to continue. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/19/2014 04:50 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 04:34:35 -0600, Daniel Campbell wrote: How is putting systemd setting in a profile that a user has to consciously choose to use forcing anything on anyone? Profiles are the essence of choice but it appears you only want the choices you approve of to be available. Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly. Logically, a non systemd profile would necessitate either a systemd profile, or require the default to already ship systemd. I hadn't considered the prior existence of systemd profiles, which we currently have, so afaict the issue is mostly moot. We already have non-systemd profiles. Until recently that is all we had. Choices are great until the existence of other choices infringes on mine. Profiles prevent that, so I have no problem with systemd profiles. The problem lies with evangelists who aren't happy with systemd being *a* choice. They want systemd to be *the* choice, *the* default. That is what I take issue with. Why are you so concerned about the default, not that anyone in this thread has suggested making systemd the default, not even Canek? If you cannot use eselect profile set, Gentoo is not for you anyway? The handbook tells you to select a profile quite early in the installation, there is no default - portage complain loudly if you haven't chosen a profile, so I fail to see how anyone can force systemd (or openrc for that matter) on users when the choice must be made. There are technical arguments for and against systemd, which is why this thread was started, rhetoric about forcing default profiles on people when there is no such thing as a default profile only serve to cloud the real issues. Ah. It's been a while since I installed Gentoo; I wasn't aware that portage would yell at you for not choosing a profile, or that one wasn't already set. In that case there's nothing for me to say wrt defaults. Insistence upon technical-only discussion is a bit dishonest imo, as free software is more than code. Without the social practices, community, etc, there wouldn't be free software. So I think non-technical concerns can be relevant to discussions on a project, especially ambitious ones that seek to greatly change the ecosystem. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTBI1QAAoJEJUrb08JgYgHLbwIAI9sg65uA330dpWdoZHua81q CGnoHzmClRdToNeYI40UKt7uT4rlebVvV2/A4DCcOb/qOPy7V1yNX8Etdsk/PHGi 5fhmqIgG/pU7lLeBI1FVMJmGaPZOju/g23Ney1AknoAdSH6r3F1S4k7d95C3CgWs VDlZpsB/q5e8bTIVfFSQZ4vj9I4cKz+ZNzDsD2oGepDGtH+66OPjF1MUBhBao/+c rFrZcdaWOpTc0Soj6I+bdffijKldyOflzRkINo6mBaWWOlEh34A10rGDDcOnkT6L 0ioUBn+5C9/AIDbBX8uplaaT4nG0QWPg/gi/WH6swLme5X9kSUVeTYJMCqRFBkk= =mK4M -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 10:19:43 + thegeezer wrote: [...] For all this talk about technical details, nobody seems to notice the marketing A few people including myself have noted it earlier. that's going on and frankly it disgusts me. And me too. I have to confess that it does feel very evangelistic the approach from folks pushing systemd. perhaps it is just because for some it has been four years of looking at new ways of doing things, whilst others are just realising now how different it is. I saw an interesting blog post [1] that basically tried to convince directly gentoo devs. it was interesting because of this comment: snip *Simon* September 26, 2013 at 2:58 am https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-756 Yes, I think you’re dead on, there. It’s not that Gnome depends on systemd – but it’s increasingly dependent on features that are only provided by systemd. The example of OpenRC not behaving according to GDM’s assumptions is a perfect illustration of that. It’s dependent not on systemd, but on something that for practical purposes is indistinguishable from systemd /snip It looks like systemd PR agents put it quite simple: my way or the highway. And it looks like Gentoo is the last major shelter for freedom we have. the difficulty is that without knowing what features are required but assumed to be there it becomes very difficult to build something the has the API that logind or others might be requiring.an update of gnome might require a new feature that is hot off the presses, and until it breaks an openrc-logind system no one is aware of that requirement. the API does seem to be online [2], albeit updated 30days ago; i can't comment if this is up to date enough or not. I think the argument on the blog page is a bit disingenuous too - essentially implying that if you want gnome then you must have logind, and if you want logind you must supply the features supplied by systemd: but to get a list of the features required is _your_ problem: go through the gnome source code to find out. these kinds of things are what folks are taking umbrage against. I'm also a little confused over the socket matrix feature. I think it's very clever to be negotiating and buffering socket and mounts to services that need them, but I haven't seen a good technical argument as to why this is required. From my perspective i see it as xinet.d for unix sockets and well, is anyone using xinet.d on a production server? Hopefuly someone can enlighten me? also what happens if the socket arbitrator dies ? 1. We never use xinetd on either production systems or desktops/laptops. The only legitimate setup with xinetd I can recall is CVS server. Though the very CVS technology is obsolete this days (yes, I know portage tree is still using it and I'm looking forward for git migration). Socket activation feature is dubious at least. It looks like nobody from its developers cared to assume that services may start not as fast as they expect (e.g. network issues with cisco switches being too slow to answer dhcp which may take up to several minutes). That's why socket activation is extremely dangerous: it may cause services to fail _on_ start. Some may just crash and will be restarted (though not all services may be restarted after crash without manual interaction, e.g. some DB setups may fail badly), while other may loose some functionality and continue to work. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko pgpgPnRlfgeDk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 2014-02-19 2:04 AM, Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: For such a profile to be legitimate, systemd would have to be chosen as the default. Ridiculous. Forget about Canek's rant... This is about *choice*. Also, I would argue the *opposite of what Canek is saying in this last rant... If he and other want systemd profiles, let *them* do the work of creating and maintaining them. All the Gentoo Council would have to do is make this a new rule or part of the Gentoo Constitution or whatever guidelines govern things like this: In keeping with Gentoo's Official Policy of providing maximum choice to its user base, we hereby authorize this formal process for nominating, creating, and maintaining new profiles that make use of the new systemd init system. And the number of profiles wouldn't even quite double. There are 16 now, if each and every one had a systemd counter-part, it would add 12 more. So, as systemd users create the new profiles, instead of: # eselect profile list Available profile symlink targets: [1] default/linux/amd64/13.0 * [2] default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux [3] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop [4] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome [5] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd [6] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde [7] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd [8] default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer [9] default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib [10] default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32 [11] hardened/linux/amd64 [12] hardened/linux/amd64/selinux [13] hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib [14] hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux [15] hardened/linux/amd64/x32 [16] hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64 we may eventually (at worst) end up with: # eselect profile list Available profile symlink targets: [1] default/linux/amd64/13.0 * [2] default/linux/amd64/13.0/systemd [3] default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux [4] default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux/systemd [5] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop [6] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/systemd [7] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome [8] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd [9] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde [10] default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd [11] default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer [12] default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer/systemd [13] default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib [14] default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib/systemd [15] default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32 [16] default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32/systemd [17] hardened/linux/amd64 [18] hardened/linux/amd64/systemd [19] hardened/linux/amd64/selinux [20] hardened/linux/amd64/selinux/system [21] hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib [22] hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/systemd [23] hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux [24] hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux/systemd [25] hardened/linux/amd64/x32 [26] hardened/linux/amd64/x32/systemd [27] hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64 [28] hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64/systemd You would also have to require package maintainers to support both profiles, unless the upstream package itself changed such that it would no longer work without systemd.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 2014-02-18 4:05 PM, Sebastian Beßler sebast...@darkmetatron.de wrote: First I thought that with systemd I have to use all the things shipped with systemd like journald (which I don't like because I think that a binary file for syslogs is just broken) so I looked into the config files of systemd, deactivated journald and configured logging to rsyslog instead. And just like journald many (if not most or even all, I'm still at the surface of systemd configuration) of the new and ugly tools can be replaced by the good old tools we like and love. Thanks Sebastian. I had pretty much come to this same conclusion without even having tried systemd yet. This, combined with the new knowledge that it is relatively trivial to allow peaceful co-existence for systemd users through the use of profiles, and that these would need to be created and maintained by those who want or need the equivalent systemd version of any given profile, now boils down to one last thing... Getting the Gentoo Council behind this idea, and providing an officially supported - or maybe a better term is *mandated* - process whereby systemd proponents can create and then maintain new systemd versions of any existing profiles. I guess maybe it is time to go open a bug about this? I would be happy to do this, but maybe it would be better if someone who has much more knowledge of the inner workings of the Gentoo Council and whatever process governs things like this to do it?
[gentoo-user] Re: flickering thunderbird and firefox
On 02/19/2014 01:55 AM, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: For a week or so I see flickering applications here. I thought it would help to upgrade nvidia-drivers but even todays update didn't help. I rebuilt thunderbird-24.3.0 and nvidia-drivers-334.16-r7 ... I also didn't find anything matching at bgo. This is gnome-3.10, I know, masked stuff ... but it worked without a problem until this. Until what, exactly? I use qlop -l to review the list of recent updates, which gives me clues about what packages to suspect. Also, you should try thunderbird-bin to see if the official build has the same problem. Other windows like terminals or browsers (chrome, opera) are not affected ... but in thunderbird I get flickering message windows which is rather annoying. Sorry, I don't know how to describe it in a better way. Does anyone have an idea? Some mozilla-specific problem ;-) ? Stefan
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: flickering thunderbird and firefox
Am 19.02.2014 14:40, schrieb walt: On 02/19/2014 01:55 AM, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: For a week or so I see flickering applications here. I thought it would help to upgrade nvidia-drivers but even todays update didn't help. I rebuilt thunderbird-24.3.0 and nvidia-drivers-334.16-r7 ... I also didn't find anything matching at bgo. This is gnome-3.10, I know, masked stuff ... but it worked without a problem until this. Until what, exactly? I use qlop -l to review the list of recent updates, which gives me clues about what packages to suspect. I can't tell the date ... you know: something happens, one thinks it will soon go away and lives with it ... tries something which doesn't help and days go by ... Also, you should try thunderbird-bin to see if the official build has the same problem. good idea, will do, thanks! btw: my thinkpads don't show this behavior. Same gnome, kernel, thunderbird, but intel-based graphics. So it smells like nvidia ...
[gentoo-user] Why WordPress is masked?
I was recently told that I will have to use WordPress to do some translation job. After emerge --search wordpress, I have found that this package is currently masked (at least for amd64 architecture). The same says https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/WordPress Earlier, in this mailing list, I was told that I can see the reasons for masking a package in .../profile/package.mask file. However, looking into it, I have not found there the wordpress package at all. Does anybody know, why wordpress package is currently masked and how dangerous it is to unmask it as the wikipage above advises. Moreover, I am interested if there are any substitutions for the wordpress package available in Gentoo. By a quick search, I have found vimpress plugin for vim. Does anybody know if it is a decent substitution for wordpress? Thank you.
Re: [gentoo-user] Why WordPress is masked?
Hi, On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:54:12 +0200 Gevisz wrote: After emerge --search wordpress, I have found that this package is currently masked (at least for amd64 architecture). The same says https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/WordPress Earlier, in this mailing list, I was told that I can see the reasons for masking a package in .../profile/package.mask file. However, looking into it, I have not found there the wordpress package at all. Does anybody know, why wordpress package is currently masked and how dangerous it is to unmask it as the wikipage above advises. Wordpress is not masked on my ~x86 and ~amd64 boxes. Probably you have stable amd64 setup. Unmasking is generally safe in such cases, though if you'll mix stable and unstable packages too much you may have unforeseen consequences. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko pgpdKbIpCtX_5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Why WordPress is masked?
On 19/02/2014 16:54, Gevisz wrote: I was recently told that I will have to use WordPress to do some translation job. After emerge --search wordpress, I have found that this package is currently masked (at least for amd64 architecture). The same says https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/WordPress www-apps/wordpress is not hardmasked. It is marked ~arch, something entirely different. The correct description for this package is keyworded unstable Earlier, in this mailing list, I was told that I can see the reasons for masking a package in .../profile/package.mask file. That file does not document unstable keywords However, looking into it, I have not found there the wordpress package at all. Does anybody know, why wordpress package is currently masked and how dangerous it is to unmask it as the wikipage above advises. packages are keyworded unstable because they are not yet ready for prime-time, or the maintainer hasn't gotten around to marking it stable yet, or no-one has submitted a stabilization request to b.g.o yet We don't know which of these apply Just add www-apps/wordpress to package.accept_keywords and emerge it. You will soon find out if it suits your needs and it won't eat your kittens. Moreover, I am interested if there are any substitutions for the wordpress package available in Gentoo. No, that does not make sense. The only thing that works like wordpress is wordpress. If you need to use wordpress then install wordpress. There exists other blogging software of course but they are not wordpress. By a quick search, I have found vimpress plugin for vim. Does anybody know if it is a decent substitution for wordpress? I doubt it does what you apear to think it does. vimpress is a wordpress editing tool running in the vim editor. It connects to a wordpress blog and let's you do the edits in vim instead of some other editing tool. But you still need to have access to a wordpress blog for it to work Thank you. Are you certain you need to run the wordpress software locally? Will you not instead be editing a blog hosted elsewhere? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
On Wed, 19 February 2014, at 1:57 pm, Stefan G. Weichinger li...@xunil.at wrote: ... btw: my thinkpads don't show this behavior. Same gnome, kernel, thunderbird, but intel-based graphics. So it smells like nvidia ... What have you done to rule out hardware? Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
Am 19.02.2014 16:57, schrieb Stroller: On Wed, 19 February 2014, at 1:57 pm, Stefan G. Weichinger li...@xunil.at wrote: ... btw: my thinkpads don't show this behavior. Same gnome, kernel, thunderbird, but intel-based graphics. So it smells like nvidia ... What have you done to rule out hardware? nothing. I think hardware would not make only specific apps/windows fail, right? At least it doesn't sound very likely to me ... I could boot from a live cd to cross check ... will try that.
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
On 19/02/2014 18:38, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: Am 19.02.2014 16:57, schrieb Stroller: On Wed, 19 February 2014, at 1:57 pm, Stefan G. Weichinger li...@xunil.at wrote: ... btw: my thinkpads don't show this behavior. Same gnome, kernel, thunderbird, but intel-based graphics. So it smells like nvidia ... What have you done to rule out hardware? nothing. I think hardware would not make only specific apps/windows fail, right? At least it doesn't sound very likely to me ... Yes, it can. But not in the obvious way. Video cards and GPUs are complex devices implementing numerous features. It is possible that your GPU/video card hardware is broken wrt one or a few of these features and Mozilla apps are the only ones you use that make use of these features. It's a bit of a perfect storm situation and frankly, software drivers are more likely to provoke it than broken hardware. I would keep the possibility in the back of my head to be checked way down the line of possibilities though. Meanwhile, if your hardware vendor provides a hardware diagnostics tool you could run it for fun and see what it says. Those tests are fairly rapid so you don't lose much by giving it a spin. I could boot from a live cd to cross check ... will try that. or you could do that ^^^ instead :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On 19.02.2014 09:50, J. Roeleveld wrote: Additionally, the use of tail -f and grep allows me to check the logs real-time for debugging purposes. Having to use a seperate tool that converts some proprietary binary format to human readable/scriptable single-line logs makes no sense. This is the reason why I configured systemd to disable the binary logfile and to send everything to rsyslog (it could be any other logger) instead. I don't like that journald is still running in the background in this setup and it is clearly a big negativ point on my list for this test of systemd, but it is possible to use the old and good ways of doing things. Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 04:54:08 -0600, Daniel Campbell wrote: There are technical arguments for and against systemd, which is why this thread was started, rhetoric about forcing default profiles on people when there is no such thing as a default profile only serve to cloud the real issues. Insistence upon technical-only discussion is a bit dishonest imo, as free software is more than code. Without the social practices, community, etc, there wouldn't be free software. So I think non-technical concerns can be relevant to discussions on a project, especially ambitious ones that seek to greatly change the ecosystem. Fair point, but attacks, name calling and arguments about the relevance of analogies do nothing to help the discussion. -- Neil Bothwick Never get into fights with ugly people because they have nothing to lose. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
Am 19.02.2014 20:02, schrieb Alan McKinnon: Yes, it can. But not in the obvious way. Video cards and GPUs are complex devices implementing numerous features. It is possible that your GPU/video card hardware is broken wrt one or a few of these features and Mozilla apps are the only ones you use that make use of these features. It's a bit of a perfect storm situation and frankly, software drivers are more likely to provoke it than broken hardware. I would keep the possibility in the back of my head to be checked way down the line of possibilities though. Meanwhile, if your hardware vendor provides a hardware diagnostics tool you could run it for fun and see what it says. Those tests are fairly rapid so you don't lose much by giving it a spin. I could boot from a live cd to cross check ... will try that. or you could do that ^^^ instead :-) I might do that, thanks. An ubuntu-live-cd showed no problems. Although for sure it was a different set of software ... other kernel, nvidia-drivers, gnome We'll see ...
Re: [gentoo-user] Why WordPress is masked?
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:18:49 +0200 Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 19/02/2014 16:54, Gevisz wrote: I was recently told that I will have to use WordPress to do some translation job. After emerge --search wordpress, I have found that this package is currently masked (at least for amd64 architecture). The same says https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/WordPress www-apps/wordpress is not hardmasked. It is marked ~arch, something entirely different. The correct description for this package is keyworded unstable Earlier, in this mailing list, I was told that I can see the reasons for masking a package in .../profile/package.mask file. That file does not document unstable keywords However, looking into it, I have not found there the wordpress package at all. Does anybody know, why wordpress package is currently masked and how dangerous it is to unmask it as the wikipage above advises. packages are keyworded unstable because they are not yet ready for prime-time, or the maintainer hasn't gotten around to marking it stable yet, or no-one has submitted a stabilization request to b.g.o yet We don't know which of these apply Just add www-apps/wordpress to package.accept_keywords and emerge it. You will soon find out if it suits your needs and it won't eat your kittens. Moreover, I am interested if there are any substitutions for the wordpress package available in Gentoo. No, that does not make sense. The only thing that works like wordpress is wordpress. If you need to use wordpress then install wordpress. There exists other blogging software of course but they are not wordpress. By a quick search, I have found vimpress plugin for vim. Does anybody know if it is a decent substitution for wordpress? I doubt it does what you apear to think it does. vimpress is a wordpress editing tool running in the vim editor. It connects to a wordpress blog and let's you do the edits in vim instead of some other editing tool. But you still need to have access to a wordpress blog for it to work And to get access to the blog, I need WordPress, right? Are you certain you need to run the wordpress software locally? No, I still have to ask... Will you not instead be editing a blog hosted elsewhere? And if so, can I get with only vimpress instead? Sorry, for may be stupid questions and thank you for answering.
Re: [gentoo-user] Why WordPress is masked?
On 19/02/2014 23:38, Gevisz wrote: I doubt it does what you apear to think it does. vimpress is a wordpress editing tool running in the vim editor. It connects to a wordpress blog and let's you do the edits in vim instead of some other editing tool. But you still need to have access to a wordpress blog for it to work And to get access to the blog, I need WordPress, right? No. You need a browser to access the blog. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
[gentoo-user] EFI-based bootloader for BIOS-based computers (?)
I just spotted that phrase in the sourceforge newsletter: http://sourceforge.net/projects/cloverefiboot/ and it seems to me like an oxymoron. If that phrase makes logical sense then my definitions of 'BIOS' and 'EFI' need the latest updates :) Until now I thought that EFI is a recent replacement for BIOS based machines. Can anyone clarify the linguistics involved here? Thanks
[gentoo-user] Fwd: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment?
and what about slackware for server? Original Message Subject:How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment? Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:41:28 +0800 From: Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com To: gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org, gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org Hi all, I'm not familiar with gentoo server and cluster. So could you tell me the experience about them? Thanks. Franklin Wang
Re: [gentoo-user] Fwd: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment?
On 20 Feb 2014 05:12, Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com wrote: and what about slackware for server? Original Message Subject: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment? Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:41:28 +0800 From: Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com To: gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org, gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org Hi all, I'm not familiar with gentoo server and cluster. So could you tell me the experience about them? Thanks. Franklin Wang Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the os. Security wise, there are no unwanted or unused stuff, so lesser bugs to deal with. Clustering, well, you can do that using glusterfs
Re: [gentoo-user] Fwd: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment?
Maybe it's intresting, although I prefer to use red hat, suse or ubuntu in datacenter as Google. Slackware servers're not very poppular here On 2014年02月20日 08:14, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On 20 Feb 2014 05:12, Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com mailto:touch2...@gmail.com wrote: and what about slackware for server? Original Message Subject: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment? Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:41:28 +0800 From: Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com mailto:touch2...@gmail.com To: gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org mailto:gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org, gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org mailto:gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org Hi all, I'm not familiar with gentoo server and cluster. So could you tell me the experience about them? Thanks. Franklin Wang Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the os. Security wise, there are no unwanted or unused stuff, so lesser bugs to deal with. Clustering, well, you can do that using glusterfs -- skype:touch21st, Gtalk:touch21st, Yahoo/MSN:franklinwan...@yahoo.com, Xing/Linkedin:Franklin Wang
Re: [gentoo-user] Fwd: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment?
I think a more stable distro is better for production. My choice is debian. I think you cant find nothing more stable that debian... Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the os. This is true, but gentoo is a little unstable to use on production. The system must be on 365 days/year. ¿and when you need to update the system? This will use all the processor and the system will be overloaded. This means users can't use the system when this is updating... I think the best for a server is debian. I didn't try red hat but I see this like a commercial distro :/ Any way, red hat is very used as server. And if you choice to pay, you will have official support (Other wise, you are alone :/) P.D: I'm sorry if my english is not perfect, i speak spanish [?] 2014-02-19 21:36 GMT-03:00 Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com: Maybe it's intresting, although I prefer to use red hat, suse or ubuntu in datacenter as Google. Slackware servers're not very poppular here On 2014年02月20日 08:14, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On 20 Feb 2014 05:12, Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com wrote: and what about slackware for server? Original Message Subject: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment? Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:41:28 +0800 From: Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com To: gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org, gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org Hi all, I'm not familiar with gentoo server and cluster. So could you tell me the experience about them? Thanks. Franklin Wang Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the os. Security wise, there are no unwanted or unused stuff, so lesser bugs to deal with. Clustering, well, you can do that using glusterfs -- skype:touch21st, Gtalk:touch21st, Yahoo/MSN:franklinwan...@yahoo.com, Xing/Linkedin:Franklin Wang 349.gif
Re: [gentoo-user] Fwd: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment?
On 20 Feb 2014 06:23, Facundo Curti facu.cu...@gmail.com wrote: I think a more stable distro is better for production. My choice is debian. I think you cant find nothing more stable that debian... Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the os. This is true, but gentoo is a little unstable to use on production. The system must be on 365 days/year. ¿and when you need to update the system? This will use all the processor and the system will be overloaded. This means users can't use the system when this is updating... I think the best for a server is debian. I didn't try red hat but I see this like a commercial distro :/ Any way, red hat is very used as server. And if you choice to pay, you will have official support (Other wise, you are alone :/) P.D: I'm sorry if my english is not perfect, i speak spanish 2014-02-19 21:36 GMT-03:00 Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com: Maybe it's intresting, although I prefer to use red hat, suse or ubuntu in datacenter as Google. Slackware servers're not very poppular here On 2014年02月20日 08:14, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote: On 20 Feb 2014 05:12, Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com wrote: and what about slackware for server? Original Message Subject: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment? Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:41:28 +0800 From: Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com To: gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org, gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org Hi all, I'm not familiar with gentoo server and cluster. So could you tell me the experience about them? Thanks. Franklin Wang Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the os. Security wise, there are no unwanted or unused stuff, so lesser bugs to deal with. Clustering, well, you can do that using glusterfs -- skype:touch21st, Gtalk:touch21st, Yahoo/MSN:franklinwan...@yahoo.com, Xing/Linkedin:Franklin Wang Um, binhost?
Re: [gentoo-user] Fwd: How about the gentoo server or cluster in production environment?
Debian's powerful and stable, and I like apt very much. Gentoo and
arch can be used for soho. Google uses red hat in datacenter with a
customized kernel, and facebook started the project of open compute.
are several RISC processors going to die?
On 2014年02月20日 08:53, Facundo Curti
wrote:
I think a "more stable" distro is better for production.
My choice is debian. I think you cant find nothing more
stable that debian...
Gentoo makes the best server os because it's a custom
built os where the admin knows each and every aspect of the
os.
This is true, but gentoo is a little unstable to use on
production. The system must be on 365 days/year. ¿and when you
need to update the system? This will use all the processor and
the system will be overloaded. This means users can't use the
system when this is updating...
I think the best for a server is debian. I didn't try red
hat but I see this like a commercial distro :/ Any way, red
hat is very used as server. And if you choice to pay, you will
have official support (Other wise, you are alone :/)
P.D: I'm sorry if my english is not perfect, i speak spanish
2014-02-19 21:36 GMT-03:00 Franklin
Wang touch2...@gmail.com:
Maybe it's
intresting, although I prefer to use red hat, suse or
ubuntu in datacenter as Google. Slackware servers're not
very poppular here
On 2014年02月20日 08:14, Nilesh Govindrajan wrote:
On 20 Feb 2014 05:12, "Franklin Wang"
touch2...@gmail.com
wrote:
and what about slackware for server?
Original Message
Subject:
How about the gentoo server or cluster in
production environment?
Date:
Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:41:28 +0800
From:
Franklin Wang touch2...@gmail.com
To:
gentoo-ser...@lists.gentoo.org,
gentoo-clus...@lists.gentoo.org
Hi all,
I'm not familiar with gentoo server and
cluster. So could you tell me
the experience about them? Thanks.
Franklin Wang
Gentoo makes the best server os because
it's a custom built os where the admin knows each
and every aspect of the os. Security wise, there
are no unwanted or unused stuff, so lesser bugs to
deal with.
Clustering, well, you can do that using
glusterfs
--
skype:touch21st, Gtalk:touch21st, Yahoo/MSN:franklinwan...@yahoo.com,
Xing/Linkedin:Franklin Wang
--
skype:touch21st, Gtalk:touch21st, Yahoo/MSN:franklinwan...@yahoo.com,
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[gentoo-user] Re: EFI-based bootloader for BIOS-based computers (?)
On Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:39:51 -0800, walt w41...@gmail.com wrote: I just spotted that phrase in the sourceforge newsletter: http://sourceforge.net/projects/cloverefiboot/ and it seems to me like an oxymoron. If that phrase makes logical sense then my definitions of 'BIOS' and 'EFI' need the latest updates :) Until now I thought that EFI is a recent replacement for BIOS based machines. Can anyone clarify the linguistics involved here? The scope of UEFI is somewhat greater than that of traditional BIOSes. Both do various hardware initialization and such, but UEFIs (can) have a number of additional features, including more flexibility in what it can launch from where (eg. network booting without iPXE) and even an interactive shell. See [1] for a less organized list of features. I'm unfamiliar with this project in specific, but I'm going by the line This is EFI-based bootloader for BIOS-based computers created as a replacement to EDK2/Duet bootloader http://www.tianocore.org. I have a box running Duet, which is an UEFI implementation that can be launched by (eg.) the extlinux boot loader on a legacy BIOS system. Once Duet is launched, the system is mostly indistinguishable from a native UEFI system that has booted into it's UEFI firmware. From here, Duet can let the user go through menus to select an EFI executable to launch (a EFI-stub enabled kernel or some sort of boot loader), or it can automatically launch something based on existing configuration. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI#Features -- eroen signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2014-02-18 4:05 PM, Sebastian Beßler sebast...@darkmetatron.de wrote: First I thought that with systemd I have to use all the things shipped with systemd like journald (which I don't like because I think that a binary file for syslogs is just broken) so I looked into the config files of systemd, deactivated journald and configured logging to rsyslog instead. And just like journald many (if not most or even all, I'm still at the surface of systemd configuration) of the new and ugly tools can be replaced by the good old tools we like and love. Thanks Sebastian. I had pretty much come to this same conclusion without even having tried systemd yet. This, combined with the new knowledge that it is relatively trivial to allow peaceful co-existence for systemd users through the use of profiles, and that these would need to be created and maintained by those who want or need the equivalent systemd version of any given profile, now boils down to one last thing... Getting the Gentoo Council behind this idea, and providing an officially supported - or maybe a better term is *mandated* - process whereby systemd proponents can create and then maintain new systemd versions of any existing profiles. Just jumping in here as one of Gentoo's systemd maintainers: There is no point in creating a second set of profiles just for systemd. Profiles do not perform any magic; they just set/mask use flags and set default values for some other ebuild variables. The reason we do not have a full set of systemd profiles is because they would serve no useful purpose; there is simply nothing to be gained from creating them. If I wanted to switch from systemd back openrc at this very moment, I would do the following: 1. Unset the systemd use flag. 2. Replace sys-apps/systemd with sys-fs/udev (optional). 3. Run emerge -uDNav world Having a separate profile does not make that process any easier.
Re: [gentoo-user] flickering thunderbird and firefox
On Wed, 19 February 2014, at 4:38 pm, Stefan G. Weichinger li...@xunil.at wrote: ... What have you done to rule out hardware? nothing. I think hardware would not make only specific apps/windows fail, right? At least it doesn't sound very likely to me ... Sorry, didn't fully read your original post - I thought it was the whole screen. I agree, it seems less likely to be hardware, if it's only specific windows. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 2:50 AM, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: On Tue, February 18, 2014 15:37, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 3:54 AM, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: As I do not have systemd installed on any machine, I can't check the man-pages. They are online [1]. Useful, but not necessary for this discussion. It was just a pointer. I see this option as a easter-egg without any real value. How many of these useless code-paths are implemented? Can these be disabled at compile time? That's neither here nor there; you said I would expect an export option providing the same detail level as I currently find in /var/log/messages. A timestamp is a minimum required for logging system output.; I proved to you that the journal shows timestamps and much more, if so desired. [ snip ] See if you can easily do that with rsyslog or syslog-ng. Not easily, That's (one of) the advantage(s) that the journal brings. BTW, I'm not trying to convince anyone to use the journal (nor systemd); I'm just pointing out about features. but I do not see the point, beyond as a nice gimmick. Well, I *do* see a point. Many points, actually. You want the logs for SSH, from February 12 to February 15? Done: journalctl --since=2014-02-12 --until=2014-02-15 -u sshd.service No grep. No cat. No hunting logrotated logs (the journal will rotate automatically its logs, and will search on all logs available). You can have second-precision intervals. Also, the binary format that the journal uses is indexed (hence the binary part); therefore, the search is O(log n), no O(n). With a log with a million entries, that's about 20 steps. Perhaps it's just a gimmick to you. For me is a really usefull Same question applies, can I disable these code-paths during compile-time? No you can't; if you wanted the journal to work exactly as rsyslog (or syslog-ng), then there is no reason to use the journal. Its raison d'être is the new features it brings. If you don't want those features, don't use the journal. I have log-parsing scripts that check for unexpected log-entries which expect syslog-standard logs. I used, too. The journal makes most of then unnecessary, and if I want to, it can provide formatting of the logs in the same way that rsyslog (or syslog-ng) does. I do not see the need to have to spend time to change working code to be able to handle different formats. Well, I prefer it when someone does the work for me. Additionally, the use of tail -f and grep allows me to check the logs real-time for debugging purposes. journalctl -f Checks the logs in real time. Again, [1]. Having to use a seperate tool that converts some proprietary binary format to human readable/scriptable single-line logs makes no sense. Its not proprietary; the source code is available, you can write your own parser if you want. The binary format is to be able to do O(log n) searches, that's it. It's a performance optimization. It all sounds too much like the MS Windows Event-viewer to me. Never used it. Too many events with no usefull logging information (And I am referring to OS-level messages as to why default services are not starting) systemctl status apache2.service (see [2]) will print the status of the Apache web server, and also the last lines from the logs. You can control how many lines. You can check also with the journal, as I showed up. If you *want* to, everything is online. Regards. [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/journalctl.html [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemctl.html -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 3:00 AM, J. Roeleveld jo...@antarean.org wrote: On Tue, February 18, 2014 18:12, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: [ snip ] Of course the larger a project is the *potential* number of bugs increases, but so what? With enough developers, users and testers, all bugs are *potentially* squashed. Agreed, but I know of enough large projects with large development teams and even more users that don't get the most basic bugs fixed. Quantity is not equivalent to Quality. I also agree with that. My point is that the systemd project has enough numbers of *talented* developers to do it. You can disagree, of course. And systemd has a *much* wider community than any other init system. So it can handle a larger code base. Incorrect. How many people use systemd as opposed to SysV Init? Users? Like five thousand godzillions more. Developers? It would not surprise me that systemd has several times more developers that SysV ever had. What's more, I think those developers are talented enough, to say the least. SysVinit code size is about 10 000 lines of code, OpenRC contains about 13 000 lines, systemd — about 200 000 lines. If you take into account the thousands of shell code that SysV and OpenRC need to fill the functionality of systemd, they use even more. The shell-code is proven to work though and provided with most of the software. Where it isn't provided, it can be easily created. I have seen (and used) complex start-up scripts for large software implementations which complex dependencies. Fortunately, later versions of those software packages have fixed that mess to a large extend, but I wonder how well systemd unit-files can work in such an environment. You can read [1]. I think it provides a fair and impartial account of how to use systemd to start a complex service (NFS, by its author). Having sockets created prior to service start will not work as components will fail due to time-outs, leaving even a bigger mess. I could be wrong, but I believe the use of cgroups takes care of all that. If the service fails, systemd PID 1 can reliable detect it, and force the socket to close, and even reopen it for new connections if so configured by the administrator. If that code will fail, this wouldn't be critical at system level. Thus scope of fatal error is limited. Also in systemd, since most of its code is not critical (again; logind, datetimed, localed, etc., failing, has no impact whatsoever on the rest of the system). I understand the usecase for logind, but what is the point of a daemon to supply the time (datetimed)? Is this a full replacement for ntpd? And what does localed do? That's configured once in the environment and should be handled using environment variables. I'm sorry, but *everything* you are asking for is in the link I gave you that you qualified it of not necessary for this discussion (I also pointed someone else to [2]). If you are really interested in the answers, go on and read it there. It's certainly better than hearing it from me. Regards. [1] http://lwn.net/Articles/584175/ [2] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/#manualsanddocumentationforusersandadministrators -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian just voted in systemd for default init system in jessie
On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 6:38 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2014-02-19 2:04 AM, Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: For such a profile to be legitimate, systemd would have to be chosen as the default. Ridiculous. Forget about Canek's rant... This is about *choice*. Also, I would argue the *opposite of what Canek is saying in this last rant... Tanstaafl, can we please not use terms like rants? I'm just giving my opinion, trying to be respectful and civil to the others participants in this thread. I would appreciate if you do the same to me. If he and other want systemd profiles, let *them* do the work of creating and maintaining them. And as I said on [1], I agree; lets have a systemd profile... which apparently it basically already exists[2]. (I snip the rest, since I don't really disagree with it). Regards. [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.user/272694 [2] http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/targets/systemd/ -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
