Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 04:18, Walter Dnes wrote: HT is being phased out *ACCORDING TO INTEL*. See article at... http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30087 Err... Never let it be said that facts will get in the way of a fun story - Mike Magee I call bull on that story. -- Mike Williams -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 01:51 -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Monday 13 March 2006 00:59, JimD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': Whatever you do, don't go HT. It's not worth the effort. By HT do you mean AMD 64 Hyper-Transport or Pentium Hyper-Threading? Hyper-Transport = the shit [1] Hyper-Threading = just shit [2] OK.. I'll bite.. Why ?? Don't change the reason, just change the excuses! -- Joe Cointment
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 02:12, Ash Varma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 01:51 -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Monday 13 March 2006 00:59, JimD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': Whatever you do, don't go HT. It's not worth the effort. By HT do you mean AMD 64 Hyper-Transport or Pentium Hyper-Threading? Hyper-Transport = the shit [1] Hyper-Threading = just shit [2] OK.. I'll bite.. Why ?? Hyper-Transport is a way for CPUs to exchange data directly rather than going through a memory controller, thus allowing limited resources (L1/2/3 cache) to be used more effectively. In particular, process migration causes fewer cache misses. Hyper-Threading is a way for a CPU to pretend to be two, thus causing the system to request/require more resources than are available. Hyper-Transport attempts to alleviate a bottleneck, while Hyper-Threading increases the load on an existing one. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 21:47, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: Hyper-Transport is a way for CPUs to exchange data directly rather than going through a memory controller, thus allowing limited resources (L1/2/3 cache) to be used more effectively. In particular, process migration causes fewer cache misses. Hyper-Threading is a way for a CPU to pretend to be two, thus causing the system to request/require more resources than are available. Hyper-Transport attempts to alleviate a bottleneck, while Hyper-Threading increases the load on an existing one. I apreciate that AMD certainly seem to have the memory bandwidth/throughput thing nailed, and their processors stand tall as a result. but I doubt that a p4 would perform near as well without a large part of the enginered paralelism that comes as part HThreading, compared to a purely serial system. I can certainly tell you that compiling (as an example) *wihtout* HT enabled on my P4 is a bad idea, takes nearly 4 times as long. -- Woman: I'm not going to press charges, but I assume you'll want to punish him. Homer: 'Preciate the suggestion, lady, but he hates that. And I gotta live with him. Bart: You're the man, Homer. Bart After Dark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 04:23, JimD wrote: AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 800MHz HT Socket 754 or Intel Pentium D 805 Smithfield 533MHz FSB 2 x 1MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Dual Core,EM64T Processor I'm very surprised Intel can knock out dual core processors for under $150! I would go for the AMD though, but the socket 939 version. With a good board you should have no problems getting a much faster dual core CPU in X months time and just slotting it in. The next item is a mobo to go with the proc. For the mobo I really want SATA, PCI express, onboard audio and lan. I don't want onboard video, I will get a newer Nvida card to handle video. All the onboard stuff must work under Gentoo, I won't have MS on the new box. I've just got an Asus A8N (SLI version), and an X2 3800, very nice fully working combination. The board supports all currently available socket 939 CPUs too. -- Mike Williams -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 01:59 -0500, JimD wrote: Iain Buchanan wrote: Whatever you do, don't go HT. It's not worth the effort. By HT do you mean AMD 64 Hyper-Transport or Pentium Hyper-Threading? don't bother with Hyper threading. Hyper transport I know nothing about. -- Iain Buchanan iain at netspace dot net dot au The clothes have no emperor. -- C.A.R. Hoare, commenting on ADA. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 23:44 +1300, Glenn Enright wrote: I can certainly tell you that compiling (as an example) *wihtout* HT enabled on my P4 is a bad idea, takes nearly 4 times as long. I would hesitate to say, the reason for this is more likely to do with the way HT is turned off. I've noticed massive slowdowns with turning HT depending on whether I turn it off in the bios or just play with the kernel. conspiracy theory there may even be some intentional slowdown when you do a bios / chip based disable /conspiracy theory -- Iain Buchanan iain at netspace dot net dot au Man is an animal that makes bargains: no other animal does this-- no dog exchanges bones with another. -- Adam Smith -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Tuesday 14 March 2006 00:53, Iain Buchanan wrote: conspiracy theory there may even be some intentional slowdown when you do a bios / chip based disable /conspiracy theory lol -- All my life I wanted to be someone; I guess I should have been more specific. -- Jane Wagner -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
Iain, So are you saying that a P4 is actually faster with HT disabled, or simply that you don't have much to gain by using HT? I've had a dual-Xeon machine with 4 logical processors running Gentoo for a couple years now, and I like being able to run 4 threads of simulations at the same time. The threads, when started nearly simultaneously, seem to finish the same jobs in nearly the same amount of time... I've been told before that it's simply because the HT makes both the actual processors less efficient... Either way - I haven't had any complaint about HT, but if there is conclusive evidence that HT drastically takes away from true P4 power, then I'd definitely like to know about it. Thanks Denis -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On 3/13/06, JimD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey group, My trusty old computer died tonight :( I am stuck with my winders laptop for a few days until I can get in a new mobo and processor. I am looking at getting something like an AMD 64 or a Pentium D dual core. I can get one of the two models below for a really good price on newegg. AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 800MHz HT Socket 754 or Intel Pentium D 805 Smithfield 533MHz FSB 2 x 1MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Dual Core,EM64T Processor I don't like Intel, all bad experiences (IMHO), so I would go with AMD, also, I would never go with a 754, its going down and 939 will dominate, so, you better get something you'll be able to upgrade, a high performance optimized A64 is so cool I can't wait to get mine. Check for simple stuff in the MOBO that makes great difference: Chipset: I will never ever again get a VIA or SIS enable MOBO, NForce is just THE chipset! Onboard audio: check for compatibility with Linux, and I don't mean something that just works, I mean if you really are gonna listen to sound or some shrieks like my last AC97 compatible card. If possible test it. Or ask around. LAN: Careful with gigabit controllers that are not supported, have you seen the kernel list for gigabit ethernets? I have and there are not many. Get something completely offboard and buy a sound card, you won't regret it... Also invest on cooling your system and some good PS. As you're a programmer you'll probably have it 32bits in order to avoid some imcompatibilities (I would get another disk and had both a 64 pure system and a 32 backup one, you can use the same config files, distfiles, etc). Thats MHO. -- Daniel da Veiga Computer Operator - RS - Brazil -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.1 GCM/IT/P/O d-? s:- a? C++$ UBLA++ P+ L++ E--- W+++$ N o+ K- w O M- V- PS PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+++ R+* tv b+ DI+++ D+ G+ e h+ r+ y++ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 07:37, Denis wrote: Iain, So are you saying that a P4 is actually faster with HT disabled, or simply that you don't have much to gain by using HT? I have a laptop and a desktop the sport p4's with HT. I don't see any difference whether HT is turned on or turned off. From what I see, if your software isn't taylored to take advantage of HT, there's an actual penalty having it... I've had a dual-Xeon machine with 4 logical processors running Gentoo for a couple years now, and I like being able to run 4 threads of simulations at the same time. The threads, when started nearly simultaneously, seem to finish the same jobs in nearly the same amount of time... I've been told before that it's simply because the HT makes both the actual processors less efficient... Either way - I haven't had any complaint about HT, but if there is conclusive evidence that HT drastically takes away from true P4 power, then I'd definitely like to know about it. Think of a P4 with HT as an ordinary P4 with two inputs and only one processing unit. If the thread on one input wants all the cpu power, it gets it and the other input stalls and starves. It's easy to see by running top on a busy P4 with HT computer. I can remember something I heard while growing up, you don't get something for nothing... Jerry -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
processing unit. If the thread on one input wants all the cpu power, it gets it and the other input stalls and starves. It's easy to see by running top on a busy P4 with HT computer. Never seen my dual Xeon machine starve :) And that's with 4 Monte Carlo codes running at the same time and me being able to do other things... I don't have any complaints. Denis -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 04:44, Glenn Enright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': On Monday 13 March 2006 21:47, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: Hyper-Transport is a way for CPUs to exchange data directly rather than going through a memory controller, thus allowing limited resources (L1/2/3 cache) to be used more effectively. In particular, process migration causes fewer cache misses. Hyper-Threading is a way for a CPU to pretend to be two, thus causing the system to request/require more resources than are available. Hyper-Transport attempts to alleviate a bottleneck, while Hyper-Threading increases the load on an existing one. I apreciate that AMD certainly seem to have the memory bandwidth/throughput thing nailed, and their processors stand tall as a result. but I doubt that a p4 would perform near as well without a large part of the enginered paralelism that comes as part HThreading, compared to a purely serial system. My characterization is mostly correct. However, there are mitigating circumstances on the P4. What happened is that Intel made the instruction pipeline so long, they were losing a /large/ number of cycles when they had to flush the pipeline. The pipeline basically has to be flushed anytime the branch predictor guesses wrong. With HT there's a separate pipeline that can be independently filled and flushed, sharing the same compute devices, this allows the chip to continue processing unless both branch predictors go wrong. For certain pair of processes this will increase performance because the (on-chip) scheduler overhead is overtaken by the reducing of wasted cycle due to single-pipeline flush. The additional pipeline is a good idea, but I think it would have been better used as a parallel pipeline so that the branch predictor /is/ the scheduler. When a branch is encountered, the pipeline is duplicated and the branch the predictor chose is given priority for compute resources. A branch can only go two ways so one of the pipelines is correct and a bad guess by the branch predictor will only flush one. The problem with my approach [1] is handling the case when the pipeline ends up having multiple branch instructions in it. Then, you don't have enough pipelines to do all the branches simultaneously and you can run into the same issues of having to flush all the pipelines. I'm sure the designers at Intel weighed my approach against the HT approach taken and found their approach superior given the size of the pipeline and statistics available for branch instruction probability. I just hope that HT was the winner because of technical superiority and not because they couldn't find a cool name for my approach. [My choice: Quantum-Prediction.] In short, going with H-Thr vs. non-H-Thr will probably buy you performance, but it could be the wrong solution to a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place. (The first thing you learn about pipelines is the flush overhead associated with long ones.) -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh [1] I call it my approach for two reasons: a) I wrote it in the email and 2) I can't remember the actual name of it; it's been used before and may be used currently, it's not original or anything. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 05:23, JimD wrote: Hey group, My trusty old computer died tonight :( I am stuck with my winders laptop for a few days until I can get in a new mobo and processor. I am looking at getting something like an AMD 64 or a Pentium D dual core. I can get one of the two models below for a really good price on newegg. AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 800MHz HT Socket 754 or Intel Pentium D 805 Smithfield 533MHz FSB 2 x 1MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Dual Core,EM64T Processor go AMD. The memory access is much faster. And memory access is the major bottleneck. Also, the Opteron/amd64-athlons wipe the floor with the p4. There is no good reason to buy intel today. But... emm... I bought a Venive S939, 3200+ 1000MHZ HT for less than 130€ or so just 5Month ago. so you should get a much better CPU than you wrote for 150$ -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 163692080 Hemmann, Volker Armin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip There is no good reason to buy intel today. But... emm... I bought a Venive S939, 3200+ 1000MHZ HT for less than 130¤ or so just 5Month ago. so you should get a much better CPU than you wrote for 150$ Thanks for the tip. I did see the Venice core on newegg. Where did you get your S939? Did you do AMD64 for gentoo or just x86? I just finished getting everything compiled and setup where I like it. I won't mind doing it again if running gentoo in 64-bit on an AMD64 would be a noticeable difference from running 32-bit on an AMD64. Jim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEFbqCeqJ5Vbm4CxYRAtG0AJ9B+ZNw9EC5/Pqhgdei3ib6rHnUTgCfft9L 29GXO8rFqf2cCcrz5uFcGkw= =6M2I -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 12:31, Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': Did you do AMD64 for gentoo or just x86? I just finished getting everything compiled and setup where I like it. I won't mind doing it again if running gentoo in 64-bit on an AMD64 would be a noticeable difference from running 32-bit on an AMD64. My recommendations are: 1G RAM : 32-bit kernel and userland 4G RAM : 64-bit kernel and 32-bit userland else : 64-bit kernel and 64-bit (multilib) userland Rationale: With less than 1G of ram you can still access all of it from any userland process without using the BIGMEM or HUGEMEM options [1]. You could gain a few extra registers from going 64-bit, but that probably doesn't make up for using twice the space for pointers and some other kernel structures. At /exactly/ 1G (or even really close, ~ 768M) you have to go BIGMEM or HUGEMEM to actually get use of all of that memory (in a 32-bit kernel), so I'd go with the 2nd option. With more than 1G but less than 4G you go 64-bit kernel to avoid the BIGMEM or HUGEMEM options, are let your 64-bit hardware to that work. 32-bit userland limits each process to only 4G addressable memory and denies userspace access to the 64-bit only registers, but you don't have 4G anyway and going 64-bit doubles the size of pointers in userspace. At /exactly/ 4G either the 2nd or 3rd option is tenable, but I'd go with the 3rd option is RAM is cheap and you'll probably add more later. Recompiling your entire userland is much more drastic that recompiling your kernel. Above 4G, you also really have a choice between option 2 and 3. I go with 3 because I believe that one process should be able to take all my physical memory if it needs it (and I don't ulimit it), particularly in the form of buffers and cache. I simply can't recommend going no-multilib right now. Perhaps in the future that will no longer be the case, but there's just too many things out there that you may want to install as 32-bit right now. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 19:31, Jim wrote: On 163692080 Hemmann, Volker Armin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip There is no good reason to buy intel today. But... emm... I bought a Venive S939, 3200+ 1000MHZ HT for less than 130¤ or so just 5Month ago. so you should get a much better CPU than you wrote for 150$ Thanks for the tip. I did see the Venice core on newegg. Where did you get your S939? local trader. I bought it at the same shop, where I bought the board for less than 50€ and the two ram modules (for dual channel) for 50€ each -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 14:10, Hemmann, Volker Armin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': My recommendations are: 1G RAM : 32-bit kernel and userland 4G RAM : 64-bit kernel and 32-bit userland else : 64-bit kernel and 64-bit (multilib) userland with amd64 on s939 you are buyiong ram in pairs, to use dual channel mode. So you'll have 1GB, 2GB, 4GB. Is 256M PC2700 not available, for those with very little money... And with 1GB you are loosing ~160mb when using 32bit. With a stock kernel. You can actually tweak this fairly easily, and I've seen reports of being able to use 980M in user space. That said, if you've got 768M of RAM and don't feel like tweaking your kernel, go 64-bit. Plus, you can't use the additional registers of the cpu in 32bit mode - so why using it at all? Better memory architecture and microcode, larger caches, etc.; you might even get a Hz bump; in the near future, you'll get hw virtualization. There are lot of reasons to choose a modern processor than just the 64-bit mode. That said, there's very little reason to have less than 1G of RAM these days, and at that point you are well-served to put (at least) your kernel in 64-bit mode. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 164593240 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better memory architecture and microcode, larger caches, etc.; you might even get a Hz bump; in the near future, you'll get hw virtualization. There are lot of reasons to choose a modern processor than just the 64-bit mode. That said, there's very little reason to have less than 1G of RAM these days, and at that point you are well-served to put (at least) your kernel in 64-bit mode. Is there a how-to on going 64-bit with Gentoo? Anything special to do with/for the kernel to go 64-bit? Jim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEFd+UeqJ5Vbm4CxYRAi0xAJ4rvSEyExCXRsJFFA0FGtzsfyp+XwCeOtBJ 8jJMZOdaMktryZtOqkRBr7c= =Qw+M -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 21:09, Jim wrote: Is there a how-to on going 64-bit with Gentoo? Anything special to do with/for the kernel to go 64-bit? Reinstall. You need a 64bit toolchain to compile a 64bit kernel, and getting a 64bit toolchain is no mean feat. Just reinstall. Do it in a chroot while the system is running. You might also have to compile the kernel from a 64bit livecd environment. -- Mike Williams -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 15:09, Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': On 164593240 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Better memory architecture and microcode, larger caches, etc.; you might even get a Hz bump; in the near future, you'll get hw virtualization. There are lot of reasons to choose a modern processor than just the 64-bit mode. That said, there's very little reason to have less than 1G of RAM these days, and at that point you are well-served to put (at least) your kernel in 64-bit mode. Is there a how-to on going 64-bit with Gentoo? Anything special to do with/for the kernel to go 64-bit? If you are in a 32-bit userland you have to cross-compile the kernel, which is pretty easy. (And been covered recently.) # Get a cross-compiler: emerge -u crossdev crossdev -s1 -t x86_64 # Clean, configure, and compile your new kernel. cd /usr/src/linux # Or whereever you have your kernel sources make mrproper # To completely clean the existing kernel zcat /proc/config.gz .config # Start with running config make ARCH=x86_64 CROSS_COMPILE=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu- menuconfig # Make sure and include support for IA32 binaries. make ARCH=x86_64 CROSS_COMPILE=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu- -j2 # Tune jobs # Install modules emerge -u module-rebuild # For below make ARCH=x86_64 CROSS_COMPILE=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu- modules_install module-rebuild -X rebuild # out-of-kernel modules, like nvidia # Install the kernel mount /boot # If needed make ARCH=x86_64 CROSS_COMPILE=x86_64-pc-linux-gnu- install # Or manually umount /boot # As above # Using lilo? I don't, but if you are, you'll probably need do to # something else, too. # Reboot shutdown -r now -t 5 (Bo Anderson (IIRC) on this list has validated most of this proceedure, so he should be able to help you with any gotchas along the way.) If you are using a 64-bit kernel but still running a 32-bit userland and want to move to a 64-bit userland you'll need to: 1) Fix your make.profile link 2) Update your CHOST, CFLAGS, CXXFLAGS, and ACCEPT_KEYWORDS in make.conf 3) Rebuild system (which will include your toolchain) emerge -e system 4) Switch to the new gcc using gcc-config 5) Rebuild world (which will also do system again. :/) emerge -e world (I haven't validated this, but it *shouldn't* break your system. If you are using LVM and have a little extra space, it might just be better to do a chroot install, then boot into it and remove your old install [don't remove /home!]) -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 16:01, Mike Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': On Monday 13 March 2006 21:09, Jim wrote: Is there a how-to on going 64-bit with Gentoo? Anything special to do with/for the kernel to go 64-bit? Reinstall. You need a 64bit toolchain to compile a 64bit kernel, and getting a 64bit toolchain is no mean feat. As I covered before. With gentoo, it's easy: emerge -u crossdev crossdev -s1 -t x86_64 (It should be noted that crossdev might attempt to install a hard-masked or profile-masked cross compiler [because of some minor limitations...], so you might want to fiddle with the versions...) That gets you enough to compile the kernel. If you want a full toolchain you can change the stage to 4: crossdev -s4 -t x86_64 If you need a debugger, add --ex-gdb. If you need fortran and other languages, support add --ex-gcc. Just reinstall. Do it in a chroot while the system is running. You might also have to compile the kernel from a 64bit livecd environment. The kernel is actually the easiest thing to compile as 64-bit. Then, once you are in that 64-bit kernel you should be able to move you userland to 64-bit without bringing down the system. A chroot install might be easier, though, if you have the space available. Reboots are for hardware upgrades, not software. :P I just need to figure out how to use /proc/kmem to move to a new kernel w/o rebooting. (kexec might work, too.) -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Mon, 2006-03-13 at 07:37 -0500, Denis wrote: Iain, So are you saying that a P4 is actually faster with HT disabled, or simply that you don't have much to gain by using HT? Well, I had read (in a previous HT thread on gentoo-user) that it did indeed degrade performance in many cases, but I've also seen reports that it increases performance in some areas greatly. Doing some more investigation I found this page: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-htl/ There is a lot of information out there - I googled for hyperthreading performance linux and got plenty of reading. So essentially I'm still undecided. I've had a dual-Xeon machine with 4 logical processors running Gentoo for a couple years now, and I like being able to run 4 threads of simulations at the same time. The threads, when started nearly simultaneously, seem to finish the same jobs in nearly the same amount of time... umm.. did I misunderstand something here? What exactly do you mean by threads? If I start some process 4 times on a single core, single cpu system, each one should finish in nearly the same amount of time, because process time gets equally allocated... Or did you mean 4 threads running together finish in the same amount of time as 1 thread running by itself? cya, -- Iain Buchanan iain at netspace dot net dot au You can't cheat the phone company. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On 152923032 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip (I haven't validated this, but it *shouldn't* break your system. If you are using LVM and have a little extra space, it might just be better to do a chroot install, then boot into it and remove your old install [don't remove /home!]) Thanks for the details Boyd. ;) I have plenty of space so I might try the chroot. I take it I can find chroot gentoo install instructions on the wiki? Jim -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 19:14, Jim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': On 152923032 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip (I haven't validated this, but it *shouldn't* break your system. If you are using LVM and have a little extra space, it might just be better to do a chroot install, then boot into it and remove your old install [don't remove /home!]) Thanks for the details Boyd. ;) I have plenty of space so I might try the chroot. I take it I can find chroot gentoo install instructions on the wiki? Eh, just use the handbook. I don't know about the new graphical installer, but the old way [well, maybe not old, gentoo was at 2004.3 before I installed it.] was always to install into a chroot from the livecd environment. You won't have to pull as much data from the net though, since you should be able to bind mount /usr/portage... although be careful with your packages directory. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 11:44:56PM +1300, Glenn Enright wrote I apreciate that AMD certainly seem to have the memory bandwidth/throughput thing nailed, and their processors stand tall as a result. but I doubt that a p4 would perform near as well without a large part of the enginered paralelism that comes as part HThreading, compared to a purely serial system. I can certainly tell you that compiling (as an example) *wihtout* HT enabled on my P4 is a bad idea, takes nearly 4 times as long. HT is being phased out *ACCORDING TO INTEL*. See article at... http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30087 -- Walter Dnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] In linux /sbin/init is Job #1 My musings on technology and security at http://tech_sec.blog.ca -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
Hey group, My trusty old computer died tonight :( I am stuck with my winders laptop for a few days until I can get in a new mobo and processor. I am looking at getting something like an AMD 64 or a Pentium D dual core. I can get one of the two models below for a really good price on newegg. AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Venice 800MHz HT Socket 754 or Intel Pentium D 805 Smithfield 533MHz FSB 2 x 1MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Dual Core,EM64T Processor Both of these are in the $150 price range for processors that I want to stay at, though I will go up to about $200 for a proc. I have always used AMD at home though never had an AMD 64 yet. If I go Intel then I would want it to have either HT or dual core. If anyone has a good suggestion for a proc $200, please let me know. The next item is a mobo to go with the proc. For the mobo I really want SATA, PCI express, onboard audio and lan. I don't want onboard video, I will get a newer Nvida card to handle video. All the onboard stuff must work under Gentoo, I won't have MS on the new box. I am not sure if I should go intel or amd64. I am not looking for an amd vs intel flame war, just suggestions based on personal experience. This box will be my main home computer running Gentoo. I am a programmer so I want a system that will be fast for compiling, some Linux games from time to time, uh... compiling Gentoo : ), watching videos/dvd's and maybe 1-2 times a year I will encode a video. Thanks for any tip, Jim -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Sun, 2006-03-12 at 23:23 -0500, JimD wrote: Hey group, My trusty old computer died tonight :( I _wish_ mine would die, then I could justify an upgrade ;) Maybe it will have an ... accident! Intel Pentium D 805 Smithfield 533MHz FSB 2 x 1MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Dual Core,EM64T Processor I just bought an Pentium D 830 (Dual core 3.0 GHz, seems nicely fast :) for a friend's upgrade. It went with an Asrock 775 Twins-HDTV mobo - a nice array of features but I don't know about linux support b/c they're windows only users... Whatever you do, don't go HT. It's not worth the effort. -- Iain Buchanan iain at netspace dot net dot au Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song? -- Steven Wright -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
Iain Buchanan wrote: I wish mine would die, then I could justify an upgrade ;) Maybe it will have an ... accident! Just spill a little coffe and you should be all set :) I just bought an Pentium D 830 (Dual core 3.0 GHz, seems nicely fast :) for a friend's upgrade. It went with an Asrock 775 Twins-HDTV mobo - a nice array of features but I don't know about linux support b/c they're windows only users... Thanks for the info, I will look into that mobo support for Linux. Whatever you do, don't go HT. It's not worth the effort. By HT do you mean AMD 64 Hyper-Transport or Pentium Hyper-Threading? Thanks for the info, Jim -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination
On Monday 13 March 2006 00:59, JimD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'Re: [gentoo-user] Mobo/proc combination': Whatever you do, don't go HT. It's not worth the effort. By HT do you mean AMD 64 Hyper-Transport or Pentium Hyper-Threading? Hyper-Transport = the shit [1] Hyper-Threading = just shit [2] -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh [1] American slang for is really cool. [2] This is just referring to feces. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
