Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound system. KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, etc. KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate. One thing I never understood about dbus is why does an IPC deamon depend on X ? And to phonon, why does an audio api depend not just on X, but also Qt ? cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: i...@metux.de skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
BRM wrote: It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data. Just to let me get the point right: kmail provides some kind of search/date integration driver into the semantic-desktop framework ? Why does this have to happen in a MUA ? Why not in an separate service ? cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: i...@metux.de skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote: BRM wrote: It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data. Just to let me get the point right: kmail provides some kind of search/date integration driver into the semantic-desktop framework ? Why does this have to happen in a MUA ? Why not in an separate service ? kmail provides the HOOKS. Also, we had enough people complaining about bloat just because of dbus. Another service? Great - but then shut up about dbus.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound system. KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, etc. KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate. One thing I never understood about dbus is why does an IPC deamon depend on X ? And to phonon, why does an audio api depend not just on X, but also Qt ? cu dbus: luckily X is not a mandatory dependendcy for dbus. phonon: because phonon is part of qt? And qt is more than just a toolkit?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Another service? Yes, a service that will be started only on-demand. Great - but then shut up about dbus. Who the frak are you to tell me shut up ?! cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: i...@metux.de skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: phonon: because phonon is part of qt? And qt is more than just a toolkit? What is it then ? An own OS ? ;-o cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: i...@metux.de skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: phonon: because phonon is part of qt? And qt is more than just a toolkit? What is it then ? An own OS ? ;-o are you insisting going down the stupid road?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Sonntag 14 Februar 2010, Enrico Weigelt wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: Another service? Yes, a service that will be started only on-demand. so I have to wait for the service to start first? Sounds even crappier. Great - but then shut up about dbus. Who the frak are you to tell me shut up ?! attacking dbus or nepomuk and then proposing a 'small service' - sounds really clever.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. -- Neil Bothwick Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. - Mark Twain signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. -- Zeerak
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Friday 12 February 2010 12:15:13 Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Your entire argument is pointless and utterly without merit. KDE is the way it is because that's how the devs built it. From a marketing perspective, it is correct the way it is because the vast majority of it's users will not understand or care about the point you are making and the DE was built for them. I'll give you an analogy: A new suspension bridge has permanent copper cladding on the stay wires. You are of the opinion that this should have been hot-pluggable and the city that paid for the bridge should have had the choice to fit aluminium cladding after the fact, and to be able to do so at the press of a button. You express this opinion to the bridge architect and present vast reams of made-up marketing fluff to support your point. The bridge architect and his team of engineers listen to you, look at each other and cock their eyebrows. The architect looks back at you and says: Tough shit. We're not changing it now. There's a difference between what you think is the right way to proceed and the way the devs chose. If you don't like where kmail is going, use claws -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing manager
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
- Original Message From: Zeerak Waseem zeera...@gmail.com On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency. It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data. And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE - level. The application itself will still check to see if it could participate, only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything. In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Question: are you a software developer? Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier to make it one and let the system determine not to support the functionality than it is to litter the codebase with if (symanticDesktopEnabled)... code. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when your processor cannot. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing manager But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. Be it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as dbus is bad because it's new. I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) -- Zeerak
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:46:57 +0100, BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com wrote: - Original Message From: Zeerak Waseem zeera...@gmail.com On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency. It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite - so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data. And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE - level. The application itself will still check to see if it could participate, only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything. Right, but then when the DE isn't a DE, but a window manager, a minimal one, then it's kind of a strange for a function to be forced outside of the specific DE. Well it seems strange to me anyway. In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Question: are you a software developer? Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier to make it one and let the system determine not to support the functionality than it is to litter the codebase with if (symanticDesktopEnabled)... code. An aspiring one, yes. And it probably easier to just make it a hard dep, however if the quality of their application for anyone -not- using kde. It's sensible for it being set if you have kde, but if you don't have kde it just seems very out of place. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when your processor cannot. Ben I hadn't considered that particular thing, but yes, in a sense you're right. I mean there is difference for a compiler and a mail app, with gcc you can compile for another system so the it supports things your processor doesn't support doesn't necessarily mean that you won't need the support, with a mail app you can... But essentially, if you know you'll never need to compile for another processor, then yes I'd consider it bloat. -- Zeerak
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
- Original Message From: Zeerak Waseem zeera...@gmail.com But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. So you are complaining why? Why even install KMail if you are not going to use it? And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. Be it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? The KDE devs in general (applications, etc.) with the exception of KOffice, and possibly Amarok, are all targeting their development as an integrated DE meant to be run under KDE. They have been pretty clear as well that they do not intend the applications to be run stand-alone under other DE's (even Gnome) - that's not officially supported. And this has been especially clear for KDE4 (see asiego's blog for example). Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as dbus is bad because it's new. I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) If you disagree with the devs lack of support for things beyond their requirements, or things that they explicitly have stated they do not support that is your issue. The fact is the devs are building the application for the target environment - KDE4 - and no other DE (e.g. gnome, icewm, jwm, openbox, etc.). So expect that dependencies will match what would be expected in that environment if you want to use the application. Anything else is unreasonable of you as a user. A simple analogy: The Chevy Malibu part not fitting in the Ford F150 vehicle. Sure, they may perform the same function in the end, but they were designed for completely different vehicles. Ben
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing manager But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not just install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharing aware desktop solution. Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it. If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing. And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice. Be it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? what are you even talking about? Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as dbus is bad because it's new. I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) no, I have the feeling that you are trolling. But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That niche is filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile of apps, you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment. KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound system. KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, etc. KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate. KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different databases and concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more than just finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly. When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why don't you cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway? You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley than keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder with gigabytes of data than a couple of floppy disks. Semantic-desktop can help you with that. A lot. Your calender tells you, that there is a meeting
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On 2/12/2010 10:14 AM, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. No, it's not a soft dependency. Yes, it's a hard dependency. Yes, it's a good idea. Yes, it's necessary. No, no amount of pointless whining about bloat is going to change things. If you want to use KDE-4 applications, you use semantic desktop. If you don't want to use semantic desktop, you don't use KDE-4 applications. Yay for choice. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:51:01 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote: On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote: But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus. Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit. But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the correct term?) dependencies. Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-) In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat. and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma- desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing manager But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have symantic-desktop as a hard dependency. yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not just install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharing aware desktop solution. Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it. If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing. I have tried it, briefly so I won't claim to know all the merits, but it didn't seem to be a huge addition to my life. To each his own however :-) I don't know, I just considered flexibility and as much being as far independent of anything that isn't strictly related to the core functions of the application. But again, this is just my take, and the entire development with KDE is interesting to follow and I'll surely be following this development with a great interest. And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager. you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice. Be it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE? what are you even talking about? Well what I mean is that Semantic-desktop is a part of the KDE DE, right? So anyone not using the fullblown DE, but simply a few apps is being forced to install semantic-desktop with various KDE apps. And sure you can use whatever WM in KDE, but that was never really the point, at least not how I intended it, pardons if I was too vague about it. My point was if you only run a window manager and not any DE at all. Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as dbus is bad because it's new. I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;)) no, I have the feeling that you are trolling. Oh, well I'm very sorry that you get that impression, I am actually quite interested in some arguments for why you consider it to
[gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
Zeerak Waseem wrote: I just started a degree, to accomplish -something akin to- that ;-) Ah, good. Let me give you some free advice, well in advance. When it comes time to pick people for your thesis committee -- pick ones who love to argue. I think it may save you some pain later.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Stroller wrote: On 11 Feb 2010, at 00:01, Jörg Schaible wrote: ... your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts. start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework) and then proceed with the links. google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be replaced with find, locate and grep). Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL, although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a usable machine ... I don't use KDE, but when I freshly install Mac OS (or migrate to a new hard-drive) the Spotlight indexing hammers the drive for several hours. It is not reasonable to compare performance during this initial indexing period. There is no way the likes of `find`, `grep` and `locate` - useful as they are - can operate as efficiently as this kind of indexing (and Spotlight is pretty damn poor - your KDE implementation is surely loads better). I love `find`, `grep` and `locate` - they're fantastic, but my typical usage of them is to perform strict batch operations. If I just want to open a document then why would I wait for `find`, `grep` - or go hunting around manually in sub-directories of sub- directories - when I can just type a keyword into the search box and find it immediately? don't forget that updatedb is hammering your harddisk regularly too - and it doesn't just index new files. Nope, it goes over the whole disk.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:17:07AM +, Stroller wrote I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files so that you can find them easier than typing a search term clicking on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your current methods are good enough for you, but this isn't good grounds on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it). Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody else's desktop. And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated, slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've stayed with Windows, thank you. I started with Blckbox and am now on ICEWM. I have to put up with Windows at work and one of the first things I do with a new machine is to turn off indexing. It noticeably, speeds up the system. I'll take the rare occasional long search versus continuous disk-thrashing, thank you. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:17:07AM +, Stroller wrote I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files so that you can find them easier than typing a search term clicking on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your current methods are good enough for you, but this isn't good grounds on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it). Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody else's desktop. And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated, slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've stayed with Windows, thank you. I started with Blckbox and am now on ICEWM. I have to put up with Windows at work and one of the first things I do with a new machine is to turn off indexing. It noticeably, speeds up the system. I'll take the rare occasional long search versus continuous disk-thrashing, thank you. again. You are talking about stuff you do know nothing about. Semantic desktop is not a MUST. You can turn it off. Second, even if you use it the impact on performance is negligble. updatedb running over your harddisks does a lot more damage than nepomuk - with the additional bonus that nepomuk only indexes once. But again, you can turn it off with a single mouse click. So what again ist your problem? Besides that it is new?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On 2/11/2010 7:00 AM, Walter Dnes wrote: And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated, slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've stayed with Windows, thank you. I started with Blckbox and am now on ICEWM. So, to summarize: * You don't like modern desktop environment design philosophy * You have no need for all of the convenience and productivity enhancements they provide * You are perfectly happy to use your previous window manager * Your previous window manager continues to work well for you and do everything you require from a window manager, and, * You just really like to complain about things. --Mike
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Jörg Schaible joerg.schai...@gmx.de wrote: Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL, although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a usable machine ... I tried it again in KDE 4.4, and other than virtuoso taking 100% with a bug (I killed it and it behaved normally after that) I didn't experience any extreme load even during the initial indexing. However, I disabled it after a couple hours of indexing because it was already using a few gigabytes of disk and I simply don't find it useful.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:00:27 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody else's desktop. Is this ignorance or FUD? It must be FUD because it has already been stated countless times in this thread that this service can be switched off. -- Neil Bothwick I typed Format SER: and accidentally killed a telephone operator! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Feb 11, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:00:27 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody else's desktop. Is this ignorance or FUD? It must be FUD because it has already been stated countless times in this thread that this service can be switched off. Just to come full circle, the thread started because the kmail is now requiring the semantic-desktop USE flag. So the consensus seems to be that if you use kmail, then you have to compile the semantic desktop features, then go back and turn off using the semantic desktop.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:55:23 +0100, Roy Wright r...@wright.org wrote: On Feb 11, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:00:27 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote: Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody else's desktop. Is this ignorance or FUD? It must be FUD because it has already been stated countless times in this thread that this service can be switched off. Just to come full circle, the thread started because the kmail is now requiring the semantic-desktop USE flag. So the consensus seems to be that if you use kmail, then you have to compile the semantic desktop features, then go back and turn off using the semantic desktop. Agreed, this thead seems to have been blown out of proportion really. One thing is if you install a fullblown DE, then having semantic-desktop is fine, it's also fine that the DE forces you to build it, being that it can be turned off. However I think that random apps that are a part of the DE, but can be deselected, shouldn't have to force the users into building anything that the DE requires. It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate, kmail etc. that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested in having the entire DE. That's just my take on it anyway. -- Zeerak
[gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On 02/11/2010 01:35 PM, Zeerak Waseem wrote: It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate, kmail etc. that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested in having the entire DE. By the authority vested in me by My-Wife-the-Windows-User, I welcome you to the gentoo-users mail list. (I don't recall your name from previous months, but, nevermind.) I see that you've taken some heat in return for your opinions, but you've maintained a very civil and polite tone to your replies, and I admire you for that. On the other hand, may I politely suggest that, if you wish to use the latest version of kate (or any other software including software from M$) you must necessarily accept the decisions of the author of that software. How could it possibly be otherwise? The Ultimate Solution is to develop your own software, of course, and be the next M$/Google/Whoever. Hey, I'm still working on it -- I'll get there, do-or-die!
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:04:38 +0100, walt w41...@gmail.com wrote: On 02/11/2010 01:35 PM, Zeerak Waseem wrote: It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate, kmail etc. that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested in having the entire DE. By the authority vested in me by My-Wife-the-Windows-User, I welcome you to the gentoo-users mail list. (I don't recall your name from previous months, but, nevermind.) I see that you've taken some heat in return for your opinions, but you've maintained a very civil and polite tone to your replies, and I admire you for that. Why thank you :-) On the other hand, may I politely suggest that, if you wish to use the latest version of kate (or any other software including software from M$) you must necessarily accept the decisions of the author of that software. How could it possibly be otherwise? Well it can't be otherwise, however I do enjoy complaining, well about certain things anyway. Personally I installed kde, and realized I had no idea what on earth was on my computer and why, so I removed it and moved to openbox, and don't use any kde specific apps. But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand. The Ultimate Solution is to develop your own software, of course, and be the next M$/Google/Whoever. Hey, I'm still working on it -- I'll get there, do-or-die! I just started a degree, to accomplish -something akin to- that ;-) -- Zeerak
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Jörg Schaible wrote: Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote: On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote: Hello list, when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs kdelibs compiled with USE=semantic-desktop and cannot be told to not use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not install it. you don't even now what that is. Right? You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have it installed with soprano. My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on find every few months. your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts. start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework) and then proceed with the links. google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be replaced with find, locate and grep). Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL, although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a usable machine ... - Jörg I don't know what load it creates because I never even have any negative impact. Yes, there is some nepomuk stuff sleeping in the background and it has zero impact on my desktop behaviour.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:25:31 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: I don't know what load it creates because I never even have any negative impact. Yes, there is some nepomuk stuff sleeping in the background and it has zero impact on my desktop behaviour. It's the Strigi indexer that can affect performance. I only notice it on my desktop because of the increased drive noise. It's a three year old dual core box, but there's no real impact. On the other hand, it brings my Eee PC 1005 to its knees, which is why it's turned off on that. -- Neil Bothwick Linuxgeek How do i find the model of my card? Serena[T] your nick is misleading, seriously signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
On 11 Feb 2010, at 00:01, Jörg Schaible wrote: ... your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts. start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework) and then proceed with the links. google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be replaced with find, locate and grep). Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL, although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a usable machine ... I don't use KDE, but when I freshly install Mac OS (or migrate to a new hard-drive) the Spotlight indexing hammers the drive for several hours. It is not reasonable to compare performance during this initial indexing period. There is no way the likes of `find`, `grep` and `locate` - useful as they are - can operate as efficiently as this kind of indexing (and Spotlight is pretty damn poor - your KDE implementation is surely loads better). I love `find`, `grep` and `locate` - they're fantastic, but my typical usage of them is to perform strict batch operations. If I just want to open a document then why would I wait for `find`, `grep` - or go hunting around manually in sub-directories of sub- directories - when I can just type a keyword into the search box and find it immediately? I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files so that you can find them easier than typing a search term clicking on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your current methods are good enough for you, but this isn't good grounds on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it). After the initial index, data is only indexed when you save a file, using inotify [1], which is built into the kernel for maximum efficiency. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about KDE's implementation). So in actual real world usage, the result is that it takes a fraction of a second longer when you save an Open Office document. My 5 year old desktop can handle this overhead just fine. A £100 Core 2 Duo + motherboard combo would surely handle it MUCH better. I trust you can see why I'm dubious of claims of poor performance. I don't wish to seem rude, being strident with my arguments here. This is just the way I see it. Stroller. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inotify
