Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Sunday 28 May 2006 07:55, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Richard Fish wrote:
> > On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> And also pardon me, when I'm annoyed because of too bold statements
> >> which turn out to be wrong. If it says "no problems expected", then
> >> that's what I expect. I don't expect to run into deep problems. And
> >> the GWN and upgrade doc clearly stated, that there were no problems
> >> to be expected.
> >
> > If you want to point out false and misleading statements, here is
> >
> > something you said earlier in this thread:
> >> Of course. You don't need to have gcc installed to be able to
> >
> > run a *compiled* program.
> >
> > This is false.  C++ programs are usually linked against libstdc++ that
> > is in the gcc directory.  So removing gcc will break these programs.
>
> Yes, you're right. In the case of Gentoo, removing gcc will break
> systems. But, as you know, there are other distributions (like
> SuSE) where you can perfectly fine remove the compiler.
>

because SuSE&co install the gcc-lib apart from gcc.
Try removing gcc-lib and see, what apps are still running. 
-- 
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Sunday 28 May 2006 07:53, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:
> > I don't know what 'upgrade guide' you have read, but:
>
> The gcc upgrade doc. The one, to which there is a link in the GWN.
>
> > Which part of the upgrade guide did you not follw?
>
> I followed the part, which said, that no additional work was required. The
> part, which is now gone. The part, in the first green box.
>
> >>And it said, that 4.1.1 was supposed to be binary compatible to 3.4.6.
> >
> > it did not say so some weeks ago, and it does not say so today.
>
> It said so, right after 4.1.1 was unmasked and the GWN was released.
>
> >>> in such cases a rebuild of the affected packages
> >>>(or even whole toolchain and system) might be required.
> >>
> >>And thus, a rebuild of world/tc/system wouldn't be required.
> >
> > wrong., read again.
>
> Yes, please FINALLY do so. Read it! At least once!

I read it, several times. And never stated it, that no -e system/world is 
needed. MAybe YOU looked at it in a wrong moment?
But even if there was such a box - GWN did NOT state, that it was absolutly 
riskless. You are talking bullshit!


> I behave like someone, who's been told to do "a" and now "b" is expected.
>
> >>Where was there a Qt update?
> >
> > like the qt3.3.0 to 3.3.2 or 3.3.3 or 3.3.4 updates? or 3.2 to 3.3?
>
> So? Where was there an update?

some weeks/month ago?
There were many qt updates in the past. And each of them required to reemerge 
some kde packages. But it seems, that you don't want to understand that. 


> >
> > yes it does.
>
> When did a non-update require something like this? Please be exact!

I wrote it above! Until now every qt update that ever happened, broke some qt 
apps. Every! But you don't read, you are just sullen.

You are pretty deep in 'Beleidigte Leberwurst' mode.

>

>
> Wrong. It still does. You should read it.
>
> > It said:
> >  The number of applications that do not compile with gcc-4.1 is extremely
> > small now, and most users should not experience any problems with ~arch
> > packages not compiling.
>
> So, what? Who's complaining about packages which don't compile because of
> gcc-4.1.1?
>

I have read it, and I have quoted it. You are pretty obviously not able to 
understand. Two possible reasons: you don't want to understand, or you are 
stupid. Choose which one fits best.

It said most people should not experience any problems.

See? 'MOST' - most is not everybody. And 'SHOULD NOT ' which is very different 
from 'won't'.

But you are not willing to see, that YOU are the one, who did not read it 
carefully, do you? You jumped into the unknown water and now, you are 
complaining, that it is cold.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 27 May 2006 13:29:01 -0700, Richard Fish wrote:

> > Did you yet re-compile Qt 3 and Qt 4? No?
> 
> For the sake of argument, I just did.  Guess what?  The only "bad"
> thing that happened is my KDE theme went away.  No big deal, I've seen
> it before when upgrading qt, and although I'm not sure what causes it,
> I know that remerging kdelibs fixes it.

This is covered in the posdt-install info from the QT ebuild. You need to
re-emerge kdelibs and kdeartwork-styles.

After a rebuild of Qt, it can happen that Qt plugins (such as Qt/KDE styles,
or widgets for the Qt designer) are no longer recognized.  If this situation
occurs you should recompile the packages providing these plugins,
and you should also make sure that Qt and its plugins were compiled with the
same version of gcc.  Packages that may need to be rebuilt are, for instance,
kde-base/kdelibs, kde-base/kdeartwork and kde-base/kdeartwork-styles.

See http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/plugins-howto.html for more infos.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake!


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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Richard Fish]

On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>>if he does not have glib?
>
>>Then he installs it.
>
> so, he should install something he does not need and 'test' it, to satisfy
> your needs?

Not MY needs, no. But to be able to say that all is fine, when it has been
posted here, that glib is one of the culprits.


No, this wasn't my point at all.  I am *not* arguing that "all is
fine".  (However I still don't see how you figure that a bug report
that shows the exact same problem occurring with both gcc 3.4.6 and
4.1.1 indicates a problem with 4.1.1)

My point is that it is wrong to flame the devs about a problem with a
~arch package.  Regardless of any documentation, GWN entries, or
anything else anybody wrote, the very fact that gcc 4.1 is in ~arch
means it needed wider testing.  Here is what the handbook says about
the testing branch:

 (http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3&chap=3)
The testing branch is exactly what it says - Testing. If a package is
in testing, it means that the developers feel that it is functional
but has not been thoroughly tested. You could very well be the first
to discover a bug in the package in which case you could file a
bugreport to let the developers know about it.

Beware though, you might notice stability issues, imperfect package
handling (for instance wrong/missing dependencies), too frequent
updates (resulting in lots of building) or broken packages.


You complained about a "complete lack of QA", and it seemed quite
obvious you were not referring to just the gcc upgrade.   Well guess
what...~arch users _are_ the QA department!  If you are not willing to
try out things that the developers *think* will work, without flaming
them when you encounter a problem that slipped by, you have no
business running ~arch.

This whole topic of "this-or-that worked fine for me" was a mistake on
my part.  I was trying to make another point which was that the
statement claiming "the upgrade should be incredibly easy..." could
have been perfectly reasonable to make.  Unfortunately it has been
more of a distraction than anything else.

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Richard Fish wrote:

On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And also pardon me, when I'm annoyed because of too bold statements
which turn out to be wrong. If it says "no problems expected", then
that's what I expect. I don't expect to run into deep problems. And
the GWN and upgrade doc clearly stated, that there were no problems
to be expected.


If you want to point out false and misleading statements, here is
something you said earlier in this thread:


Of course. You don't need to have gcc installed to be able to

run a *compiled* program.

This is false.  C++ programs are usually linked against libstdc++ that
is in the gcc directory.  So removing gcc will break these programs.


Yes, you're right. In the case of Gentoo, removing gcc will break
systems. But, as you know, there are other distributions (like
SuSE) where you can perfectly fine remove the compiler.


Maybe *you* should do a little QA and testing before *you* give
someone information that you believe to be true at the time.


Yes, I should've. What I wrote was wrong.

Alexander Skwar
--
Congratulations!  You are the one-millionth user to log into our system.
If there's anything special we can do for you, anything at all, don't
hesitate to ask!
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:

I don't know what 'upgrade guide' you have read, but:


The gcc upgrade doc. The one, to which there is a link in the GWN.


Which part of the upgrade guide did you not follw?


I followed the part, which said, that no additional work was required. The
part, which is now gone. The part, in the first green box.


And it said, that 4.1.1 was supposed to be binary compatible to 3.4.6.


it did not say so some weeks ago, and it does not say so today.


It said so, right after 4.1.1 was unmasked and the GWN was released.


in such cases a rebuild of the affected packages 
(or even whole toolchain and system) might be required.



And thus, a rebuild of world/tc/system wouldn't be required.


wrong., read again.


Yes, please FINALLY do so. Read it! At least once!

It says 'that a rebuild of system (which is a rebuild of 
the toolchain), might be required.


It didn't say so. It (basically) said, that no additional work would be
required.


You behave like someone who never experienced a gcc-update.


I behave like someone, who's been told to do "a" and now "b" is expected.


Where was there a Qt update?


like the qt3.3.0 to 3.3.2 or 3.3.3 or 3.3.4 updates? or 3.2 to 3.3?


So? Where was there an update?

I said, that I recompiled Qt 3 and Qt 4.

Now YOU explain, where there was an update. BTW: Updating without changing
the version or revision is no update.


No, it doesn't.


yes it does.


When did a non-update require something like this? Please be exact!

Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing. 



if he does not have glib?



Then he installs it.


so, he should install something he does not need and 'test' it, to satisfy 
your needs?


Not MY needs, no. But to be able to say that all is fine, when it has been
posted here, that glib is one of the culprits.


Why should he?


To verify what he's saying.


And also pardon me, when I'm annoyed because of too bold statements
which turn out to be wrong. If it says "no problems expected", then

t>>at's what I expect. I don't expect to run into deep problems. And

the GWN and upgrade doc clearly stated, that there were no problems
to be expected.



No, it did not.


Wrong. It still does. You should read it.


It said:
 The number of applications that do not compile with gcc-4.1 is extremely 
small now, and most users should not experience any problems with ~arch 
packages not compiling. 


So, what? Who's complaining about packages which don't compile because of
gcc-4.1.1?

see? 


Yes. You're misinterpreting what's written there. You should read it again.
And again. And again. Maybe you'll finally understand what's written there.


'most users' and '~arch packages'


So?


You are just sulking around,


I'm not sulking around. I just expect, that what's written there is true.

And it's not.


I deal with them just fine.


so why are you doing this 'Zwergenaufstand'?


Because of broken expectations.

Alexander Skwar
--
Love may laugh at locksmiths, but he has a profound respect for money bags.
-- Sidney Paternoster, "The Folly of the Wise"
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

Saturday 27 May 2006 19:58 skrev Alexander Skwar:
> >> gcc update "Nothing needs to be done" Sure... How much did the
> >> person who wrote this check? "Hello World!" worked, and that's it?

What exactly do you intend to achieve by flaming the devs?

> >> Sometimes this complete lack of QA is really pissing me off :(
> >
> > Stop using ~arch packages, or stop whining.
>
> No, I won't do neither. The GWN and the upgrade doc used to say,
> that an upgrade is (basically) riskless.

Well, you chose to be on the cutting edge. You chose to upgrade as soon as it 
was unmasked. If you really think there is a complete lack of QA then why the 
hell didn't you wait a week to see if it was true?

> That's wrong - as it has been confirmed and corrected now. If that
> warning would have been there in the gcc-upgrade doc, everything
> would have been fine.
>
> >  ~arch works most of the
> > time, but it is a _testing_ branch.  Do you expect the devs to login
> > to each and every Gentoo user's system to test a new package and
> > ensure complete functionality before adding it to ~arch?
>
> Bullshit.

That's not bullshit. Occasional breakage is the risk when living on the 
cutting edge. This is the purpose of the testing branch.

> I'd expect them to do testing and not give so bold statements
> as "The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional
> work to install and use. " without making VERY sure, that this
> is actually true.
>
> Granted - there's only so much that can be done. And also
> granted, that's ~arch. But that statement is just so irritating.

Well, the devs are unpaid volunteers and human beings. They do make mistakes 
sometimes but I'm quite convinced that their intensions are good. Get over 
it.

> And what's also irritating are so many small errors, like files
> with non-matching filesizes/checksums in the digests.

This has got nothing to do with the gcc upgrade. It has to do with the fact 
that ebuilds are occasionally updated with no change of revision.

> > I just upgraded to gcc-4.1 and pruned 3.4.6, and KDE, koffice, OOo,
> > and mozilla all still load and run fine.
>
> Did you yet re-compile Qt 3 and Qt 4? No?

I just did (only qt 3.3.6-r1 - I don't have qt 4). And guess what. KDE 
(kontact, kmail, knode, akregator, konqueror, ...) still works on my system.

So now I'm recompiling everything that has the kdehiddenvisibility use flag 
with that enabled..

But did you not see the einfo from postinst in qt-3*?

> INFO: postinst
> After a rebuild of Qt, it can happen that Qt plugins (such as Qt/KDE styles, 
> or widgets for the Qt designer) are no longer recognized. If this situation 
> occurs you should recompile the packages providing these plugins, and you
> should also make sure that Qt and its plugins were compiled with the same
> version of gcc.  Packages that may need to be rebuilt are, for instance,
> kde-base/kdelibs, kde-base/kdeartwork and kde-base/kdeartwork-styles.
> See http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/plugins-howto.html for more infos.

Note that it says rebuild and not upgrade.

[SNIP]

-- 
Bo Andresen


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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Richard Fish]

On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And also pardon me, when I'm annoyed because of too bold statements
which turn out to be wrong. If it says "no problems expected", then
that's what I expect. I don't expect to run into deep problems. And
the GWN and upgrade doc clearly stated, that there were no problems
to be expected.


If you want to point out false and misleading statements, here is
something you said earlier in this thread:


Of course. You don't need to have gcc installed to be able to

run a *compiled* program.

This is false.  C++ programs are usually linked against libstdc++ that
is in the gcc directory.  So removing gcc will break these programs.
Go head, try it.  emerge -C gcc, and see how well your system works.
(DANGER: for anybody else reading this, do *NOT* do this.  You will
likely break python, and thus portage, and then you are really
screwed).

Maybe *you* should do a little QA and testing before *you* give
someone information that you believe to be true at the time.

-Richard

--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Richard Fish]

On 5/27/06, Hemmann, Volker Armin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Saturday 27 May 2006 19:58, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing.

if he does not have glib?


To be fair, I did mention mozilla, so it is safe to assume that I have
gtk and glib installed.

BTW, I just remerged glib using gcc 4.1 *without* having to remerge
glibc.  What does this prove...nothing except that these simple
actions on any particular system may not be sufficient to duplicate
the problems that Alexander has seen on his system.

-Richard

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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

I don't know what 'upgrade guide' you have read, but:

   Now let's rebuild toolchain and then world so we will make use of the new 
compiler. 
Code Listing 2.2: Rebuilding system
  # emerge -eav system
# emerge -eav world


and glibc is part of the system.

Which part of the upgrade guide did you not follw?

>And it said, that 4.1.1 was supposed to be binary compatible to 3.4.6.

it did not say so some weeks ago, and it does not say so today. Or whenever 
else I looked at that document.

>> in such cases a rebuild of the affected packages 
>>(or even whole toolchain and system) might be required.

>And thus, a rebuild of world/tc/system wouldn't be required.

wrong., read again. It says 'that a rebuild of system (which is a rebuild of 
the toolchain), might be required. And experience tells, that it IS required.

You behave like someone who never experienced a gcc-update. How long are you 
using gentoo? 4 weeks? 6 month?

>Where was there a Qt update?

like the qt3.3.0 to 3.3.2 or 3.3.3 or 3.3.4 updates? or 3.2 to 3.3?

>No, it doesn't.

yes it does. A lot of times. Sometimes even a qt -rX update forces a kdelibs 
recompile.


>>> Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing. 
> 
>>if he does not have glib?

>Then he installs it.

so, he should install something he does not need and 'test' it, to satisfy 
your needs? Why should he? If you want glib tested, do it yourself. Or are 
you too grand and important? Why should anybody test something FOR YOU?
Or are you complaining, that his tests does not cover YOUR needs?

NEWSFLASH: this is gentoo, everybody has a slightly different system.


>And also pardon me, when I'm annoyed because of too bold statements
>which turn out to be wrong. If it says "no problems expected", then
t>>at's what I expect. I don't expect to run into deep problems. And
>the GWN and upgrade doc clearly stated, that there were no problems
>to be expected.


No, it did not.

It said:
 The number of applications that do not compile with gcc-4.1 is extremely 
small now, and most users should not experience any problems with ~arch 
packages not compiling. 

see? 'most users' and '~arch packages'

And not 'everything that Alexander Skwar, the superduper user everybody loves, 
and whose system is THE pinnacle of how a gentoo system should look like, has 
installed, will work flawlessly.'


You are just sulking around, and it  becomes less and less funny.

>I deal with them just fine.

so why are you doing this 'Zwergenaufstand'?
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Richard Fish]

On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Stop using ~arch packages, or stop whining.

No, I won't do neither. The GWN and the upgrade doc used to say,
that an upgrade is (basically) riskless.


Well I can't force you to do anything.  You found a problem, reported
a bug, and got the documentation fixed.  Great, all useful
contributions to a community supported distribution.

However you have also attacked the Gentoo devs.  You have insinuated
that they are lazy and/or careless.  You do remember that Gentoo devs
are unpaid volunteers doing this in their spare time, right?  And this
is how you choose to thank them for that gift?


That's wrong - as it has been confirmed and corrected now. If that
warning would have been there in the gcc-upgrade doc, everything
would have been fine.


And it will be when gcc 4.1.1 goes out of ~arch, so the stable users
will know they need to do an emerge -e world.  Yeah for them!


Bullshit.


My thoughts exactly...


I'd expect them to do testing and not give so bold statements
as "The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional
work to install and use. " without making VERY sure, that this
is actually true.


They added it to ~arch to make VERY sure that this was true, and it wasn't.


And what's also irritating are so many small errors, like files
with non-matching filesizes/checksums in the digests.


The filesize issue is probably because the distfile changed without an
change in the ebuild version.  So you can get a new Manifest (from
emerge --sync) that doesn't match the actual distfile you have, and
get a filesize mismatch the next time you try to merge that same
version, e.g. when doing an emerge -e world.  This is rare, but it
does happen.

The evidence that this is in any way related to the gcc upgrade is
pretty thin...


> I just upgraded to gcc-4.1 and pruned 3.4.6, and KDE, koffice, OOo,
> and mozilla all still load and run fine.

Did you yet re-compile Qt 3 and Qt 4? No?


For the sake of argument, I just did.  Guess what?  The only "bad"
thing that happened is my KDE theme went away.  No big deal, I've seen
it before when upgrading qt, and although I'm not sure what causes it,
I know that remerging kdelibs fixes it.

But of course this is meaningless...the fact that some people have no
problems doesn't change the fact that some do.


Then you're experiences just don't count. KDE broke on my
system, when I recompiled Qt. Before the recompile, KDE was fine.
As I've wrote in lengths on the bug report. Seems you've not read
it - why not? Why am I writing reports and *also* post links
here?


I *did*.  And it was very good and useful report, even though it was a
duplicate of another report.

Look, I am not claiming there the gcc upgrade is seamless and easy.  I
am also *not* suggesting that the fact that it works on my system is
proof that there are no problems.  But it does mean that the upgrade
can *appear* to be seamless and easy, and only fail in specific cases
on specific systems.


Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing.


Um, I'm a ~arch user, so I am *always* testing.  But no, I didn't
recompile just glib to see if it would work in a mixed environment.
Nor did I re-compile each of the other 835 packages installed on my
system in turn with 4.1.1 to see if they would work in a mixed
environment.

But, did you happen to notice that the original poster of that glib
bug wasn't even using gcc 4.1?  How did you decide that it was a gcc
upgrade problem?  Indeed it looks more like a libtool issue to me...

Do you have some plan for testing new gcc releases in a mixed
compilation environment that will guarantee no compatibility problems?
Something that won't take a year to complete so that new gcc versions
can move out of p.mask?

IMO, it would be much simpler and better to tell people to always do
an emerge -e world when upgrading gcc...

-Richard

--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote:

On Saturday 27 May 2006 19:58, Alexander Skwar wrote:

Richard Fish wrote:
> On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> gcc update "Nothing needs to be done" Sure... How much did the
>> person who wrote this check? "Hello World!" worked, and that's it?
>>
>> Sometimes this complete lack of QA is really pissing me off :(
>
> Stop using ~arch packages, or stop whining.

No, I won't do neither. The GWN and the upgrade doc used to say,
that an upgrade is (basically) riskless.


no it does not.


Yes, it does.

You are talking bullshit. 


Am I?


GWN:

The number of applications that do not compile with gcc-4.1 is extremely small 
now, and most users should not experience any problems with ~arch packages 
not compiling.


Yes, read it. I'm not complaining about packages which do not compile because
of gcc 4.1.1. I complained because KDE stopped working. I complained, because
I had to re-compile glibc, so that I could compile glib.

So, please YOU read again.

Read it, understand it. It is hard, I know. But it does not say 'riskless'. 
Not even 'basically riskless'. Read again.


Yes, please do so - please read again. Make note of the sentence right
before the sentence, which you've quoted:

| The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional work to
| install and use.

If that's not "basically riskless", then I don't know what basically riskless 
is.


And the uzpgrade guide says:


The upgrade doc used to say, that upgrading from 3.4.x to 4.1.1 will be
painless (I don't know the exact words anymore, as the box has been
thankfully removed, which is VERY good).

Generally speaking, upgrades to bug fix releases, like from 3.3.5 to 3.3.6, 
should be quite safe -- just emerge new version, switch your system to use it 
and rebuild the only affected package, libtool. However, some GCC upgrades 
break binary compatibility;


And it said, that 4.1.1 was supposed to be binary compatible to 3.4.6.

in such cases a rebuild of the affected packages 
(or even whole toolchain and system) might be required.


And thus, a rebuild of world/tc/system wouldn't be required.


>  ~arch works most of the
> time, but it is a _testing_ branch.  Do you expect the devs to login
> to each and every Gentoo user's system to test a new package and
> ensure complete functionality before adding it to ~arch?

Bullshit.

I'd expect them to do testing and not give so bold statements
as "The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional
work to install and use. " without making VERY sure, that this
is actually true.



and ~arch is the testing ground. Basic testing 'it works or it works not' are 
the hard-masked packages.


I guess we'll disagree about the level of "basic testing". IMO there should
be different levels for ordinary packages (say net-mail/safecat) and rather
low level system packages like gcc, glibc - and maybe everything in the sys-*
categories.


Maybe you should calm down?


I am calm. Just don't tell me, that everything's fine, when it actually
isn't.


Did you yet re-compile Qt 3 and Qt 4? No?

Then you're experiences just don't count. KDE broke on my
system, when I recompiled Qt. Before the recompile, KDE was fine.
As I've wrote in lengths on the bug report. Seems you've not read
it - why not? Why am I writing reports and *also* post links
here?


oh, that is sooo surprising.


Yes, it is, isn't it?

Most of the times, a qt-update requires 
recompiling kdelibs, base and network (and kdepim).


Where was there a Qt update?

So, thanks for agreeing with me

Something that happens 
even without gcc-updates.


No, it doesn't.


Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing.


if he does not have glib?


Then he installs it.


Or what kind of testing have you done?


enough for his system?


Not enough to experience the errors which have been reported here.


>  Since these are all heavy
> C++ users, I am sure that for my (pure ~x86) system, there are no
> issues.

Congrats. It's not only me who's having problems.



no, you are not the only one, but you are one who makes a lot of fuss about 
problems, that are easy to solve


Pardon, but an "emerge -e world" is not easy to solve. Sure, it's not
that hard, but it takes so very long and because of that, it's to be
avoided like the plague.

And also pardon me, when I'm annoyed because of too bold statements
which turn out to be wrong. If it says "no problems expected", then
that's what I expect. I don't expect to run into deep problems. And
the GWN and upgrade doc clearly stated, that there were no problems
to be expected.

Heck - the GWN still says so. You should just read it yourself. Or
let me read it to you:

| The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional
| work to install and use. The number of applications that do not
| compile with gcc-4.1 is extremely small now, and most users should
| not experience any problems with ~arch packages not compiling.

So, "em

Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Hemmann, Volker Armin]

On Saturday 27 May 2006 19:58, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Richard Fish wrote:
> > On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> gcc update "Nothing needs to be done" Sure... How much did the
> >> person who wrote this check? "Hello World!" worked, and that's it?
> >>
> >> Sometimes this complete lack of QA is really pissing me off :(
> >
> > Stop using ~arch packages, or stop whining.
>
> No, I won't do neither. The GWN and the upgrade doc used to say,
> that an upgrade is (basically) riskless.
>


no it does not.
You are talking bullshit. 

GWN:

The number of applications that do not compile with gcc-4.1 is extremely small 
now, and most users should not experience any problems with ~arch packages 
not compiling.

Read it, understand it. It is hard, I know. But it does not say 'riskless'. 
Not even 'basically riskless'. Read again.

And the uzpgrade guide says:
Generally speaking, upgrades to bug fix releases, like from 3.3.5 to 3.3.6, 
should be quite safe -- just emerge new version, switch your system to use it 
and rebuild the only affected package, libtool. However, some GCC upgrades 
break binary compatibility; in such cases a rebuild of the affected packages 
(or even whole toolchain and system) might be required.



> >  ~arch works most of the
> > time, but it is a _testing_ branch.  Do you expect the devs to login
> > to each and every Gentoo user's system to test a new package and
> > ensure complete functionality before adding it to ~arch?
>
> Bullshit.
>
> I'd expect them to do testing and not give so bold statements
> as "The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional
> work to install and use. " without making VERY sure, that this
> is actually true.
>

and ~arch is the testing ground. Basic testing 'it works or it works not' are 
the hard-masked packages.
Maybe you should calm down?
Or do you want to stay in your sulk-mode and act like a prima donna?


> And what's also irritating are so many small errors, like files
> with non-matching filesizes/checksums in the digests.
>
> > I just upgraded to gcc-4.1 and pruned 3.4.6, and KDE, koffice, OOo,
> > and mozilla all still load and run fine.
>
> Did you yet re-compile Qt 3 and Qt 4? No?
>
> Then you're experiences just don't count. KDE broke on my
> system, when I recompiled Qt. Before the recompile, KDE was fine.
> As I've wrote in lengths on the bug report. Seems you've not read
> it - why not? Why am I writing reports and *also* post links
> here?
>

oh, that is sooo surprising. Most of the times, a qt-update requires 
recompiling kdelibs, base and network (and kdepim). Something that happens 
even without gcc-updates.

> Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing.

if he does not have glib?

> Or what kind of testing have you done?

enough for his system?

>
> >  Since these are all heavy
> > C++ users, I am sure that for my (pure ~x86) system, there are no
> > issues.
>
> Congrats. It's not only me who's having problems.
>

no, you are not the only one, but you are one who makes a lot of fuss about 
problems, that are easy to solve and even happen without any gcc updates  - 
and you should have learnt to deal with a long time ago.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Richard Fish wrote:

On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

gcc update "Nothing needs to be done" Sure... How much did the
person who wrote this check? "Hello World!" worked, and that's it?

Sometimes this complete lack of QA is really pissing me off :(


Stop using ~arch packages, or stop whining.


No, I won't do neither. The GWN and the upgrade doc used to say,
that an upgrade is (basically) riskless.

That's wrong - as it has been confirmed and corrected now. If that
warning would have been there in the gcc-upgrade doc, everything
would have been fine.


 ~arch works most of the
time, but it is a _testing_ branch.  Do you expect the devs to login
to each and every Gentoo user's system to test a new package and
ensure complete functionality before adding it to ~arch?


Bullshit.

I'd expect them to do testing and not give so bold statements
as "The upgrade should be incredibly easy and require no additional
work to install and use. " without making VERY sure, that this
is actually true.

Granted - there's only so much that can be done. And also
granted, that's ~arch. But that statement is just so irritating.

And what's also irritating are so many small errors, like files
with non-matching filesizes/checksums in the digests.


I just upgraded to gcc-4.1 and pruned 3.4.6, and KDE, koffice, OOo,
and mozilla all still load and run fine.


Did you yet re-compile Qt 3 and Qt 4? No?

Then you're experiences just don't count. KDE broke on my
system, when I recompiled Qt. Before the recompile, KDE was fine.
As I've wrote in lengths on the bug report. Seems you've not read
it - why not? Why am I writing reports and *also* post links
here?

Did you try to compile glib? No? Then I guess you've done no testing.

Or what kind of testing have you done?


 Since these are all heavy
C++ users, I am sure that for my (pure ~x86) system, there are no
issues.


Congrats. It's not only me who's having problems.

Alexander Skwar
--
Living in LA is like not having a date on Saturday night.
-- Candice Bergen
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Richard Fish]

On 5/27/06, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

gcc update "Nothing needs to be done" Sure... How much did the
person who wrote this check? "Hello World!" worked, and that's it?

Sometimes this complete lack of QA is really pissing me off :(


Stop using ~arch packages, or stop whining.  ~arch works most of the
time, but it is a _testing_ branch.  Do you expect the devs to login
to each and every Gentoo user's system to test a new package and
ensure complete functionality before adding it to ~arch?

I just upgraded to gcc-4.1 and pruned 3.4.6, and KDE, koffice, OOo,
and mozilla all still load and run fine.  Since these are all heavy
C++ users, I am sure that for my (pure ~x86) system, there are no
issues.

-Richard

--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2006 07:54:44 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:


> and KDE continued to
> work.

Not here.


I've had a few strange errors since posting that. Like one from Konqueror
when trying to load a page, which then loaded perfectly on the next try.


> Maybe i've not run one of the affected programs.

 > Re-emerging
> *everything* to fix a KDE problem seems like knee-jerk overkill.

Well, but that's what's suggested.


I think I'll pass on that one. Rebuilding all of KDE will take long
enough, but it seems prudent,


Another problematic package: glib. It seems to require a recompile
of glibc.

See 

gcc update "Nothing needs to be done" Sure... How much did the
person who wrote this check? "Hello World!" worked, and that's it?

Sometimes this complete lack of QA is really pissing me off :(

Alexander Skwar
--
Coming together is a beginning;
keeping together is progress;
working together is success.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Steven Susbauer wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2006, Neil Bothwick wrote:



Absolutely. The GWN posting was clearly optimistic :(


Way too much. On the bug report, it's been announced, that the upgrade doc
will be rewritten, so that people are warned.


Why would an emerge -e world be required?


Because of "two version linkage of libstdc++". See the bug. See my posts.
See Neil's post.


It is not required to rebuild
every package using the new gcc.


"Re-emerge of world is suggested.". See the bug.


They will slowly be rebuilt when they are
upgraded.


And until that time, you maybe have a half-working system.


I have done nothing since upgrading and had not one issue.


Lucky you.

Did you re-compile qt 3 and qt 4 since then? How are your KDE programs
behaving? Have you recompiled your KDE programs?


Why
would I,


To get a working system.


it doesn't even make sense?


Well.


They are binaries, after all.


They are dynamicly linked, which is the problem here. And as you've seen
in the bug report, that's exactly the problem.

Alexander Skwar
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Steven Susbauer]

On Sat, 27 May 2006, Neil Bothwick wrote:

> On Sat, 27 May 2006 07:54:44 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:
>
> > > and KDE continued to
> > > work.
> >
> > Not here.
>
> I've had a few strange errors since posting that. Like one from Konqueror
> when trying to load a page, which then loaded perfectly on the next try.
>
> > > Maybe i've not run one of the affected programs.
> >
> >  > Re-emerging
> > > *everything* to fix a KDE problem seems like knee-jerk overkill.
> >
> > Well, but that's what's suggested.
>
> I think I'll pass on that one. Rebuilding all of KDE will take long
> enough, but it seems prudent, I'm certainly not going to spend 16+ hours
> rebuilding OOo if I don't need to.
>
> > Anyway, it's plain wrong that NOTHING has to be done after upgrading
> > to gcc 4.1.1. Maybe an "emerge -e world" is required. And an "emerge
> > -e world" is *very* *much* from doing nothing...
>
> Absolutely. The GWN posting was clearly optimistic :(
>
>

Why would an emerge -e world be required? It is not required to rebuild
every package using the new gcc. They will slowly be rebuilt when they are
upgraded. I have done nothing since upgrading and had not one issue. Why
would I, it doesn't even make sense? They are binaries, after all.
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Sat, 27 May 2006 07:54:44 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:

> > and KDE continued to
> > work.
> 
> Not here.

I've had a few strange errors since posting that. Like one from Konqueror
when trying to load a page, which then loaded perfectly on the next try.

> > Maybe i've not run one of the affected programs.
> 
>  > Re-emerging
> > *everything* to fix a KDE problem seems like knee-jerk overkill.
> 
> Well, but that's what's suggested.

I think I'll pass on that one. Rebuilding all of KDE will take long
enough, but it seems prudent, I'm certainly not going to spend 16+ hours
rebuilding OOo if I don't need to.

> Anyway, it's plain wrong that NOTHING has to be done after upgrading
> to gcc 4.1.1. Maybe an "emerge -e world" is required. And an "emerge
> -e world" is *very* *much* from doing nothing...

Absolutely. The GWN posting was clearly optimistic :(


-- 
Neil Bothwick

This man is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot


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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

On Fri, 26 May 2006 22:31:18 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:


> No, see this weeks Gentoo Weekly Newsletter.
 >
> "To upgrade to the new version (assuming you are using gcc-3.4), all
> that is required is to upgrade GCC and then select the new profile
> using gcc-config."

Wrong. An "emerge -e world" is required, if certain packages (like
qt) get compiled after having switched to gcc 4.1.1. See
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134447


I needed to run fix_libtool


fix_libtool wasn't enough to get KDE stuff working again. I needed
to recompile.


to get the new kdelibs update to compile. But
I re-emerged qt, so I could try kdehiddenvisibility


That's what I did and then KDE broke. As flameeyes wrote in the cited bug:

| We can't really do much, when you rebuilt qt3 and qt4 you made a two-versions
| linkage of libstdc++. Re-emerge of world is suggested.


and KDE continued to
work.


Not here.


Maybe i've not run one of the affected programs.


> Re-emerging

*everything* to fix a KDE problem seems like knee-jerk overkill.


Well, but that's what's suggested.

Anyway, it's plain wrong that NOTHING has to be done after upgrading
to gcc 4.1.1. Maybe an "emerge -e world" is required. And an "emerge
-e world" is *very* *much* from doing nothing...

Alexander Skwar
--
 Turns out that grep returns error code 1 when there are no matches.
   I KNEW that.  Why did it take me half an hour?
-- Seen on #Debian
--
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 22:31:18 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:

> > No, see this weeks Gentoo Weekly Newsletter.
>  >
> > "To upgrade to the new version (assuming you are using gcc-3.4), all
> > that is required is to upgrade GCC and then select the new profile
> > using gcc-config."
> 
> Wrong. An "emerge -e world" is required, if certain packages (like
> qt) get compiled after having switched to gcc 4.1.1. See
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134447

I needed to run fix_libtool to get the new kdelibs update to compile. But
I re-emerged qt, so I could try kdehiddenvisibility and KDE continued to
work. Maybe i've not run one of the affected programs. Re-emerging
*everything* to fix a KDE problem seems like knee-jerk overkill.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

... Taglines: and How They Affect Women. Next On Oprah.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Neil Bothwick wrote:

On Fri, 26 May 2006 09:46:24 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:


Is it required to do a "emerge -e world" when upgrading to gcc 4.1 from
gcc 3.4.6?


No, see this weeks Gentoo Weekly Newsletter.

>

"To upgrade to the new version (assuming you are using gcc-3.4), all
that is required is to upgrade GCC and then select the new profile using 
gcc-config."


Wrong. An "emerge -e world" is required, if certain packages (like
qt) get compiled after having switched to gcc 4.1.1. See
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134447

Alexander Skwar
--
I do not seek the ignorant; the ignorant seek me -- I will instruct them.
I ask nothing but sincerity.  If they come out of habit, they become tiresome.
-- I Ching
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Uwe Thiem]

On 26 May 2006 15:01, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Christian Limberg wrote:
> > just to clarify. Uprading GCC means in this case - emerging gcc-4.1 und
> > *removing* gcc-3.4?
>
> That's not what I meant - I would have gcc-4.1 and gcc-3.4 installed
> in parallel and switch to gcc-4.1 using gcc-config.
>
> > So, all the packages compiled with gcc-3.4 will
> > continue to run, after gcc-3.4 is removed?
>
> Of course. You don't need to have gcc installed to be able to
> run a *compiled* program.

You do need, though, gcc-lib. 

Uwe

-- 
Mark Twain: I rather decline two drinks than a German adjective.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 17:12:20 +0200, Hans-Werner Hilse wrote:

> but one might want to have the libstdc++ and libgcj installed that
> came with the compiler for the case that C++/Java programs should
> continue to run. So "quickpkg"ing the old GCC is probably not a bad
> idea until revdep-rebuild took care of those apps and libs.

It would be wiser to leave GCC 3.4 installed for now, until all the
wrinkles have been ironed out from 4.1. gcc-config means having them both
installed and switching at will is easy.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

"I am a Cub Ranger. We dib dib dib for the One. We dob dob dob for the
One."


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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Hans-Werner Hilse]

Hi,

On Fri, 26 May 2006 16:01:14 +0200 Alexander Skwar
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Of course. You don't need to have gcc installed to be able to
> run a *compiled* program.

but one might want to have the libstdc++ and libgcj installed that
came with the compiler for the case that C++/Java programs should
continue to run. So "quickpkg"ing the old GCC is probably not a bad
idea until revdep-rebuild took care of those apps and libs.

-hwh
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Christian Limberg wrote:

just to clarify. Uprading GCC means in this case - emerging gcc-4.1 und 
*removing* gcc-3.4?


That's not what I meant - I would have gcc-4.1 and gcc-3.4 installed
in parallel and switch to gcc-4.1 using gcc-config.

So, all the packages compiled with gcc-3.4 will 
continue to run, after gcc-3.4 is removed?


Of course. You don't need to have gcc installed to be able to
run a *compiled* program.

Alexander Skwar
--
The moss on the tree does not fear the talons of the hawk.
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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Christian Limberg]

Neil Bothwick schrieb:

On Fri, 26 May 2006 09:46:24 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:



Is it required to do a "emerge -e world" when upgrading to gcc 4.1 from
gcc 3.4.6?



No, see this weeks Gentoo Weekly Newsletter.

"To upgrade to the new version (assuming you are using gcc-3.4), all
that is required is to upgrade GCC and then select the new profile using 
gcc-config."




Hi,

just to clarify. Uprading GCC means in this case - emerging gcc-4.1 und 
*removing* gcc-3.4? So, all the packages compiled with gcc-3.4 will 
continue to run, after gcc-3.4 is removed?

--
gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Fri, 26 May 2006 09:46:24 +0200, Alexander Skwar wrote:

> Is it required to do a "emerge -e world" when upgrading to gcc 4.1 from
> gcc 3.4.6?

No, see this weeks Gentoo Weekly Newsletter.

"To upgrade to the new version (assuming you are using gcc-3.4), all
that is required is to upgrade GCC and then select the new profile using 
gcc-config."


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Scientists decode the first confirmed alien transmission from outer space
...
"This really works! Just send 5*10^50 H atoms to each of the five star
systems listed below. Then, add your own system to the top of the list,
delete the system at the bottom, and send out copies of this message to
100 other solar systems. If you follow these instructions, within 0.25 of
a galactic rotation you are guaranteed to receive enough hydrogen in
return to power your civilization until entropy reaches its maximum!"


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Re: [gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Alexander Skwar wrote:

Hello!

Is it required to do a "emerge -e world" when upgrading to gcc 4.1 from
gcc 3.4.6?


I don't think so.

http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060522-newsletter.xml

| To upgrade to the new version (assuming you are using gcc-3.4), all
| that is required is to upgrade GCC and then select the new profile
| using gcc-config.

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gcc-upgrading.xml

| Note: It should be noted that upgrading from GCC-3.4 to GCC-4.0 or
| greater requires no real changes to be made by the user, as GCC-3.4
| and GCC-4.0 use the same ABI. All that is required is that gcc-config
| is used to select the compiler desired.

Alexander Skwar
--
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[gentoo-user] Upgrading to gcc 4.1: emerge -e world required?

[Alexander Skwar]

Hello!

Is it required to do a "emerge -e world" when upgrading to gcc 4.1 from
gcc 3.4.6?

Alexander Skwar
--
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won't go away.
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